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      Welcome!   03/05/2016

      Welcome, everyone, to the new 910CMX Community Forums. I'm still working on getting them running, so things may change.  If you're a 910 Comic creator and need your forum recreated, let me know and I'll get on it right away.  I'll do my best to make this new place as fun as the last one!
Scotty

Story: Friday April 8, 2016

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9 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

Depending on how you look at it, we could be as high as 12...

Ashley, Luke, Diane, Charlotte ... you don't count Sam yet, right? Or Luke's friends. And Noah (but they didn't tell anything NEW to HIM).

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13 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Ashley, Luke, Diane, Charlotte ... you don't count Sam yet, right? Or Luke's friends. And Noah (but they didn't tell anything NEW to HIM).

Yep.

No Sam because Sam hasn't been told anything.  Luke, yes, but not his friends.  

I consider Noah to be a special case.  He's not a part of the Main-8 Circle, but he's already "in the know".  Same for Raven, if we're going to be pedantic about stuff like this...

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On April 10, 2016 at 10:12 PM, Scotty said:

Nanase however would suggest Diane join Grace and Ellen with their training under Greg, she may also consider telling Adrian consider she knows what he is, and least get his advice on what to do.

I'd love to see Greg again, it's been far too long.  Maybe we could see some of Ellen's other beams, and maybe we'd get confirmation of the Fanon idea that Greg and Vladia are dating. :-)

On April 10, 2016 at 10:12 PM, Scotty said:

That's coming from the theory that the blonde that Susan caught her dad cheating with is her biological mother, and the only evidence we have to support that theory is this comic page with the title "The other woman with Susan's face".

If you look at the next page, their faces aren't really *that* similar.  Susan is more angular, the nose is a bit diffeent....the woman looked like a baby-faced Susan a lot more than she looks like a more mature Susan.

On April 10, 2016 at 11:11 PM, Scotty said:

I think it wouldn't be an issue if Tedd was just told that Noriko is a monster hunter, Tedd know's she's in Europe, the fact that there are enemies of Noriko that have and may yet again target any of her family for revenge would likely cause Tedd to bust out the "gauntlet" again and work harder to make sure he's able to protect his friends and family.

You know, given that Mr. Verres said he's been actively addressing the Lord Tedd issue, I wonder if *this* is the *real* reason Edward doesn't want his son to know.  If Tedd knew that his mother's enemies might come after him and his friends, he doubtless *would* renew his efforts to develop weapons and increase his power.  Perhaps it was the desire to protect his friends and family, to make sure no one could hurt them, that set his alternate(s) on the road to becoming Lord Tedd in the first place.

10 hours ago, Scotty said:

I'm not saying that Justin shouldn't worry about what Edward said, of course he doesn't know whether Edward was being dramatic or serious. As a reader though, I can see a possibility that Edward may not have been serious about it. It's one thing for Edward to say something even in the hopes that none of them go blabbing about magic and such, but in the end, these are Tedd's friends and if Edward did anything to them it would alienate Tedd which is why I don't see Edward doing anything except give them a stern talking to.

The reason I don't see Edward doing anything bad to Justin or the others is because of how he treated Ellen after her creation.  Despite her attempt at becoming a villain, he treated her with kindness and understanding.  He gave her equal status with Elliot and did everything he could to help her and her family integrate her into the world.  He may be clueless about his son's gender fluidity and how to deal with it, but he is not a bad person.  Even that hurtful behavior comes from love and fear of Tedd being harmed by his transformations, not out of any callousness or cruelty.  Edward is a good guy.  I really think that once someone explains what's going on with Tedd, he'll prove to be supportive and loving there, too.  So I just can't see him bringing any of these kids to harm based on what sort of man he has shown to be.  If anything, his reply to Justin may have come off as more threatening than he would have intended, another sign that he sometimes isn't aware of how what his says comes across to others quite as much as he should be.

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51 minutes ago, CritterKeeper said:

Despite her attempt at becoming a villain, he treated her with kindness and understanding.

The fact her attempts were very lame might also have some influence here.

52 minutes ago, CritterKeeper said:

You know, given that Mr. Verres said he's been actively addressing the Lord Tedd issue, I wonder if *this* is the *real* reason Edward doesn't want his son to know.  If Tedd knew that his mother's enemies might come after him and his friends, he doubtless *would* renew his efforts to develop weapons and increase his power.  Perhaps it was the desire to protect his friends and family, to make sure no one could hurt them, that set his alternate(s) on the road to becoming Lord Tedd in the first place.

While it's possible that desire to protect his friends and family put the alternate on the road to becoming Lord Tedd, I don't think the road would be so fast and straight that Verres would be actually trying to prevent that by pretending the family doesn't need protection.

Also, did you notice Lord Tedd's father? ... it's possible that it was Lord Tedd's father DEATH which put Lord Tedd on this path. Otherwise, it would make sense he would try to prevent it.

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7 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

I'd agree with this.  The issue isn't "betray trust", it's "keep the circle at 8" that's the problem now.  Depending on how you look at it, we could be as high as 12...

Actually I see several circles in some degree of contact with one another - ranging from "aware that there's another bunch that can be contacted through this person" to "have several members in common". They are separate circles because within each one everyone knows a good bit about everyone else's magic, but for each pair of them - in at least one direction - there's a substantial body of important information common to all the members of one circle that isn't similarly shared in the other circle.

In approximate order of first appearance the circles I see are:

  1. DGB
  2. the dojo: Greg, Elliot, Justin, Nanase, Grace, and Ellen
  3. the Main 8
  4. Raven and Noah
  5. Luke and at least three friends
  6. Charlotte's Angels
  7. Ashley and Elliot

Luke's group is the most isolated. The only thing we've been shown they know about any other group is that Justin is part of a group - possibly along with Grace and/or Tedd - that is fairly knowledgeable but doesn't know everything. The only thing we've been shown that anybody else knows about them is that Luke is in a group of at least four people who are trying to figure out what the heck is going on.

On the other extreme, Charlotte's Angels and Ashley/Elliot each have 50% overlap with the Main 8. And the head of the dojo is the only member of that circle who is not part of the Main 8.

Now as for Mr.V's request to keep the size of the group down to 8. I assert that - so far - this has been done. The closest they've come to an exception is not Ashley, but Charlotte and Diane - those two know a fair amount about Ellen's, Elliot's, and Nanase's magic, where Ashley doesn't know much about Nanase's or anything about Ellen's. C&D have Mr.V's phone number; Ashley doesn't know of his existence. (On the other hand, Charlotte and Diane were previously aware of magic; Ashley was not.)  But none of those three know anything about Susan's magic, or Tedd's, or Grace's, or Justin's. It would not make a lot of sense, at this time, to bring any of them completely into the circle.

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12 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

I still would like to see examples of Ellen, Nanase and Elliot actively violating that principle with malice aforethought rather than through teenage overconfidence and the pressure of circumstance. Until then, I personally will not accept the use of the verb 'betray.'

One need not be malicious in order to betray something. Would you call Melisa's betrayal of Justin's confidence malicious? On top of that, one doesn't even need to know they're doing any betraying in order to betray someone. It can be accidental, it doesn't have to be intentional. Now, am I saying that's what's happened here? Eh. Dunno. Probably not. But it isn't as cut and dry as "they weren't malicious, therefore they didn't betray any trust". Words aren't that rigid in meaning.

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1 hour ago, Matoyak said:

One need not be malicious in order to betray something. Would you call Melisa's betrayal of Justin's confidence malicious? On top of that, one doesn't even need to know they're doing any betraying in order to betray someone. It can be accidental, it doesn't have to be intentional. Now, am I saying that's what's happened here? Eh. Dunno. Probably not. But it isn't as cut and dry as "they weren't malicious, therefore they didn't betray any trust". Words aren't that rigid in meaning.

Agreed.  This is one of those cases where the meaning of a word changes in different contexts.  One can betray a trust without it being a deliberate betrayal.

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32 minutes ago, CritterKeeper said:

Agreed.  This is one of those cases where the meaning of a word changes in different contexts.  One can betray a trust without it being a deliberate betrayal.

Nonetheless. While I will concede the above, I have yet to be convinced that any of the mentioned characters have done anything like betray Mr. Verres' trust in them. The closest I have seen any of them come to that is Tedd who is deliberately withholding information about his own magic from his father -- and he has the massive provocation of his father's transphobia and numberless microaggressions against him.

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3 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

Nonetheless. While I will concede the above, I have yet to be convinced that any of the mentioned characters have done anything like betray Mr. Verres' trust in them. The closest I have seen any of them come to that is Tedd who is deliberately withholding information about his own magic from his father -- and he has the massive provocation of his father's transphobia and numberless microaggressions against him.

I'm not really comfortable with calling Mr. Verres "transphobic." What he's doing is not cool and hurtful, but I'm pretty sure he just doesn't understand what he's seeing. Like Tedd, he probably didn't even realize gender identity, gender fluid, and transexual are things, especially since he probably grew up with fairly rigid gender roles. From his perspective, it probably looks like Tedd is trying to run away from himself, and he's just not handling it very well.

Transphobic is a very strong word, and I don't like using it for what may be just ignorance. (On the other hand, I'm of the opinion that actions can be transphobic/racist/sexist separately from the people doing them)

Tedd is definitely justified in not wanting to talk to his dad about recent events.

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Tedd needs someone to intercede on his behalf with his father.

Someone his father can not dismiss as child and is "in the know" about magic.  Someone who could speak sympathetically to Edward for Tedd about gender-identity.  Tedd's advocate need not understand or approve entirely.  But he needs to be able to tell Edward "It's real to Tedd, and by dismissing his feelings on this matter, Tedd thinks you are dismissing him entirely."

So far, I think Adrian Raven is the only one who could do this.  And the only way he would even know to ask is if Grace let something slip.

We know Mrs Kitsune has her own hang ups about gender roles that she tries to work through for the sake of Nanase but would probably think of getting between Tedd and Edward as going too far.

Noriko might be an option, IF we ever find out why she can not make more time for Tedd in the first place.

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33 minutes ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Tedd needs someone to intercede on his behalf with his father.

Someone his father can not dismiss as child and is "in the know" about magic.  Someone who could speak sympathetically to Edward for Tedd about gender-identity.  Tedd's advocate need not understand or approve entirely.  But he needs to be able to tell Edward "It's real to Tedd, and by dismissing his feelings on this matter, Tedd thinks you are dismissing him entirely."

So far, I think Adrian Raven is the only one who could do this.  And the only way he would even know to ask is if Grace let something slip.

We know Mrs Kitsune has her own hang ups about gender roles that she tries to work through for the sake of Nanase but would probably think of getting between Tedd and Edward as going too far.

Noriko might be an option, IF we ever find out why she can not make more time for Tedd in the first place.

Pandora. :)

Actually Will and Gill would be very good choices.  Gender ambiguity is built into Uyouom genetics.  Someone would have to tell them there was a problem however because they wouldn't perceive it otherwise.

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1 hour ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Tedd needs someone to intercede on his behalf with his father.

Someone his father can not dismiss as child and is "in the know" about magic.  Someone who could speak sympathetically to Edward for Tedd about gender-identity.  Tedd's advocate need not understand or approve entirely.  But he needs to be able to tell Edward "It's real to Tedd, and by dismissing his feelings on this matter, Tedd thinks you are dismissing him entirely."

So far, I think Adrian Raven is the only one who could do this.  And the only way he would even know to ask is if Grace let something slip.

We know Mrs Kitsune has her own hang ups about gender roles that she tries to work through for the sake of Nanase but would probably think of getting between Tedd and Edward as going too far.

Noriko might be an option, IF we ever find out why she can not make more time for Tedd in the first place.

Agreed. There's no way Tedd's going to do it, and I don't think it'd go well if he did. The kids might be old and smart enough for him to take them seriously, but yeah, I think it'd go over more smoothly if Raven did it. And any negative knee jerk reactions are less likely to get back to Tedd.

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

Pandora. :)

Actually Will and Gill would be very good choices.  Gender ambiguity is built into Uyouom genetics.  Someone would have to tell them there was a problem however because they wouldn't perceive it otherwise.

*looks at Pandora. Backs away slowly*
Though, she does seem to care about Tedd. At least a little.

Edward might not take it seriously from Will and Gill, but then, they or Lavender would be good choices to introduce the idea into his head. "Are you sure humans are that simple?" and some examples, then leaving him to think about it might be enough to resolve the issue.

Edited by Wildcat
The "but then"s. They were bothering me

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I don't think Ed Verres needs to be told what "genderfluid" is.

What he needs is to be told in terms he cannot honestly dispute (he almost-certainly will try) is that Tedd is genderfluid and judging him simply by masculine terms hurts.  It's the denial that needs to be pierced, not knowledge to be imparted.

Ed Verres is a decent man.  He'll come around.  Once he has no choice. :)

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4 hours ago, Wildcat said:

Transphobic is a very strong word, and I don't like using it for what may be just ignorance. (On the other hand, I'm of the opinion that actions can be transphobic/racist/sexist separately from the people doing them)

I understand your reluctance and sympathise with your desire to establish a demarcation. I simply do not agree with it. In part it is due to the way I judge myself: when I look back at my life, I can see clear patterns of how I have acted in ways variously racist, misogynistic, homophobic and ableist. And these behaviors were not due to ignorance alone. Much of them came from taught cultural behaviors and prejudices. I am working hard on them these days but simply knowing that they are wrong is not enough. Not only do I still slip up, I also have to constantly and actively watch for patterns of behavior I have never recognised before and sometimes only discover are harmful when someone victimised by them so informs me.

Was I racist, back then? In fact, was I all of these things? To my mind, yes. Without question. Trying to soothe myself into thinking that it was 'just ignorance' becomes a mere justification for my own actions, a palliative for my conscience that tells me that what I did wasn't so bad. The problem is that my actions were that bad. Keeping that in mind gives me motivation to work hard on improving and always be on the lookout for backsliding.

Therefore, yes. I judge Mr. Verres to be transphobic. This is not the same as saying that he is irredeemable. He is not, but it will take work from his side to overcome it and a lot of it. Trying to explain his behavior away as 'ignorance' is not enough: it assumes that simply informing him that what he is doing is wrong, and him understanding this, will be enough to set everything right. And it won't be. He has a lifetime of learned behavior to overcome, and he can't do that in a day or a week or even a year. It will be an ongoing process and it may take him the rest of his life.

I certainly expect this to be the case as far as my own learned behaviors go.

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I don't think its the judging Tedd by masculine terms that's the issue, because Tedd's constantly swinging from one gender to the other. It's the fact that Edward doesn't know exactly what Tedd's going through and just making assumptions that's the issue, and it's really the fault of both parties that this is happening, Edward hasn't asked why Tedd does this, or if he has Tedd's made up some excuse like "claims it's like a vacation" and yes I know what Edward says after that would seem hurtful but can you honestly think that Edward would know that after casually being told  "it's like a vacation"? He'd just think Tedd has some strange habits, this is understandable early on when Tedd didn't even know genderfluidity was a thing so he didn't really know why he did it and couldn't really communicate that well enough to Edward. Now however, Tedd knows what the deal is, but still feels he can't communicate with his dad because of all the past stuff and Edward's just left to believe that his son has developed some sort of festish.

3 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Tedd needs someone to intercede on his behalf with his father.

Someone his father can not dismiss as child and is "in the know" about magic.  Someone who could speak sympathetically to Edward for Tedd about gender-identity.  Tedd's advocate need not understand or approve entirely.  But he needs to be able to tell Edward "It's real to Tedd, and by dismissing his feelings on this matter, Tedd thinks you are dismissing him entirely."

So far, I think Adrian Raven is the only one who could do this.  And the only way he would even know to ask is if Grace let something slip.

We know Mrs Kitsune has her own hang ups about gender roles that she tries to work through for the sake of Nanase but would probably think of getting between Tedd and Edward as going too far.

Noriko might be an option, IF we ever find out why she can not make more time for Tedd in the first place.

I think Grace would be the best option actually, she's the one that figured out that Tedd is genderfluid, and Edward's got to have seen the impact Grace has had on Tedd's life since she arrived, so she should be able to get him to understand what Tedd's going through and that he needs his father's support.

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14 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

Luke and at least three friends

Wait what? I didn't know there are more than two.

14 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

The closest they've come to an exception is not Ashley, but Charlotte and Diane - those two know a fair amount about Ellen's, Elliot's, and Nanase's magic, where Ashley doesn't know much about Nanase's or anything about Ellen's. C&D have Mr.V's phone number; Ashley doesn't know of his existence.

While it seems that way for now, I think Ashley would get to Charlotte and Diane's current level quite fast.

14 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

It would not make a lot of sense, at this time, to bring any of them completely into the circle.

... on the other hand, Diane is likely to get more informations, at least regarding Susan, and if they are going to train her, it is pretty good reason to bring her completely into the circle eventually.

42 minutes ago, Scotty said:

I think Grace would be the best option actually, she's the one that figured out that Tedd is genderfluid, and Edward's got to have seen the impact Grace has had on Tedd's life since she arrived, so she should be able to get him to understand what Tedd's going through and that he needs his father's support.

Edward would still perceive her as child. Adrian Raven might be better, but I'm not sure if he would really consider it important enough to talk with Edward about it - remember, they don't have best relationship, and it could easily sound like him trying to educate Edward about how to educate Tedd.

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46 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

I understand your reluctance and sympathise with your desire to establish a demarcation. I simply do not agree with it. In part it is due to the way I judge myself: when I look back at my life, I can see clear patterns of how I have acted in ways variously racist, misogynistic, homophobic and ableist. And these behaviors were not due to ignorance alone. Much of them came from taught cultural behaviors and prejudices. I am working hard on them these days but simply knowing that they are wrong is not enough. Not only do I still slip up, I also have to constantly and actively watch for patterns of behavior I have never recognised before and sometimes only discover are harmful when someone victimised by them so informs me.

Was I racist, back then? In fact, was I all of these things? To my mind, yes. Without question. Trying to soothe myself into thinking that it was 'just ignorance' becomes a mere justification for my own actions, a palliative for my conscience that tells me that what I did wasn't so bad. The problem is that my actions were that bad. Keeping that in mind gives me motivation to work hard on improving and always be on the lookout for backsliding.

Therefore, yes. I judge Mr. Verres to be transphobic. This is not the same as saying that he is irredeemable. He is not, but it will take work from his side to overcome it and a lot of it. Trying to explain his behavior away as 'ignorance' is not enough: it assumes that simply informing him that what he is doing is wrong, and him understanding this, will be enough to set everything right. And it won't be. He has a lifetime of learned behavior to overcome, and he can't do that in a day or a week or even a year. It will be an ongoing process and it may take him the rest of his life.

I certainly expect this to be the case as far as my own learned behaviors go.

I find harsh judgments on myself or others to be an impediment to fixing the less-than-perfect attitudes I've picked up.  We all do the best we can today.  We make amends for yesterdays when we were less than today as long as those amends makes the situation better.  

My own judgments against myself have added much unneeded misery to my life.

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58 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

I understand your reluctance and sympathise with your desire to establish a demarcation. I simply do not agree with it. In part it is due to the way I judge myself: when I look back at my life, I can see clear patterns of how I have acted in ways variously racist, misogynistic, homophobic and ableist. And these behaviors were not due to ignorance alone. Much of them came from taught cultural behaviors and prejudices. I am working hard on them these days but simply knowing that they are wrong is not enough. Not only do I still slip up, I also have to constantly and actively watch for patterns of behavior I have never recognised before and sometimes only discover are harmful when someone victimised by them so informs me.

Was I racist, back then? In fact, was I all of these things? To my mind, yes. Without question. Trying to soothe myself into thinking that it was 'just ignorance' becomes a mere justification for my own actions, a palliative for my conscience that tells me that what I did wasn't so bad. The problem is that my actions were that bad. Keeping that in mind gives me motivation to work hard on improving and always be on the lookout for backsliding.

Therefore, yes. I judge Mr. Verres to be transphobic. This is not the same as saying that he is irredeemable. He is not, but it will take work from his side to overcome it and a lot of it. Trying to explain his behavior away as 'ignorance' is not enough: it assumes that simply informing him that what he is doing is wrong, and him understanding this, will be enough to set everything right. And it won't be. He has a lifetime of learned behavior to overcome, and he can't do that in a day or a week or even a year. It will be an ongoing process and it may take him the rest of his life.

I certainly expect this to be the case as far as my own learned behaviors go.

I didn't see this after I made my previous post, but I feel I need to clarify a bit more because I don't want to appear to be defending Edward in this, but I have to wonder if Edward if even aware that what he says is wrong. Like you said yourself, you grew up surrounded by those behaviours and prejudices and it was later that you came to realized that they were wrong, Edward may not have reached that point yet because either he hasn't realized he's perpetrating these things or simply hasn't been told he's wrong, I don't believe that makes what he'd doing easier to forgive, but I wholeheartedly believe he needs to be made aware of his behaviour towards Tedd, either by Tedd or by someone close to Tedd that Edward couldn't ignore.

 

21 minutes ago, hkmaly said:
1 hour ago, Scotty said:

I think Grace would be the best option actually, she's the one that figured out that Tedd is genderfluid, and Edward's got to have seen the impact Grace has had on Tedd's life since she arrived, so she should be able to get him to understand what Tedd's going through and that he needs his father's support.

Edward would still perceive her as child. Adrian Raven might be better, but I'm not sure if he would really consider it important enough to talk with Edward about it - remember, they don't have best relationship, and it could easily sound like him trying to educate Edward about how to educate Tedd.

Edward also knows that Grace thinks of him as a father and he made a promise to take care of her, as naive as Grace seems, she's shown to have a way with talking to people about tough subjects. If she can convince Adrian that the world could never be better if people didn't at least try for better outcomes, she should have a good chance of convincing Edward that Tedd needs his father's support.

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1 hour ago, The Old Hack said:

Therefore, yes. I judge Mr. Verres to be transphobic.

6 hours ago, Wildcat said:

Transphobic is a very strong word, and I don't like using it for what may be just ignorance. (On the other hand, I'm of the opinion that actions can be transphobic/racist/sexist separately from the people doing them)

While Mr Verres is unlikely to read this forum, personally I would assume people will be more likely to change their behaviour if you tell them that the action is transphobic than if you tell them THEY are transphobic. Which is the reason why I would use the "transphobic" label only for people who refused to change (or are actively resisting) and not for people who really don't know.

Racism and sexism are harder case, as people usually ARE aware of existence of other races and sex and while they may not know why some things are racist/sexists, there are plenty of stuff for which it's obvious.

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2 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

I find harsh judgments on myself or others to be an impediment to fixing the less-than-perfect attitudes I've picked up.  We all do the best we can today.  We make amends for yesterdays when we were less than today as long as those amends makes the situation better.  

My own judgments against myself have added much unneeded misery to my life.

Certainly so. But while I agree with you in principle that one should not judge oneself solely in order to punish oneself, that is not what I have been doing. I have been taking a long hard look at my life and realised that the very culture I grew up in is immensely racist and that this has had its inevitable effect on me. I am now fighting this and I refuse to employ weasel words while doing so. And in fact, it has been an immensely powerful tool for me to make progress. I take pride in this progress rather than allowing guilt to bog me down. And in fact, I found that once I admitted to myself how wrong my old behaviors were -- why, then guilt disappeared altogether, replaced by an intense desire to do better.

The opposite is more often the case, I am sad to say. I have met any number of people online who say "I am not really racist" while continuing to be so, the excuse being used to assuage the guilt they feel.

 

2 hours ago, Scotty said:

I didn't see this after I made my previous post, but I feel I need to clarify a bit more because I don't want to appear to be defending Edward in this, but I have to wonder if Edward if even aware that what he says is wrong. Like you said yourself, you grew up surrounded by those behaviours and prejudices and it was later that you came to realized that they were wrong, Edward may not have reached that point yet because either he hasn't realized he's perpetrating these things or simply hasn't been told he's wrong, I don't believe that makes what he'd doing easier to forgive, but I wholeheartedly believe he needs to be made aware of his behaviour towards Tedd, either by Tedd or by someone close to Tedd that Edward couldn't ignore.

Of course the man isn't aware that what he is doing is wrong! He loves his son and has time and again demonstrated the lengths he will go to to aid and defend his loved ones. He got himself fired through the intensity of his feelings when Nanase and Ellen were endangered by Abraham. He would never dream of deliberately hurting Tedd -- which makes it just that much more tragic when you think about the pain he is unwittingly piling on the son he loves more than anything else in this world.

But he is nonetheless doing it. In this world, it is the results that ultimately count the most and good intentions in and of themselves are worth little when improperly guided.

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

While Mr Verres is unlikely to read this forum, personally I would assume people will be more likely to change their behaviour if you tell them that the action is transphobic than if you tell them THEY are transphobic. Which is the reason why I would use the "transphobic" label only for people who refused to change (or are actively resisting) and not for people who really don't know.

Racism and sexism are harder case, as people usually ARE aware of existence of other races and sex and while they may not know why some things are racist/sexists, there are plenty of stuff for which it's obvious.

That is of course your privilege. I disagree strenuously with it, however. I have a long history of calling a shovel for a shovel and there are times for diplomacy and times for presenting hard facts. We are not dealing directly with Mr. Verres in person and even if we were, different people respond in different ways to information.

Here and now, I stand by my choice of words. Mr. Verres is transphobic. That he cannot help himself is irrelevant when it comes to his actions and their consequences -- the pain inflicted on Tedd is not lessened by his lack of knowledge of the harm he is doing. When one is speaking of an injury, the intent behind inflicting it does not reduce the damage when it comes to the injury's effects and consequences. Tedd knows that his father is acting in a transphobic manner and as a consequence has lost trust in him. And this is truly tragic, but arguing about guilt or lack thereof will not in any way change Tedd's position and problems in this.

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4 hours ago, Scotty said:

I don't think its the judging Tedd by masculine terms that's the issue, because Tedd's constantly swinging from one gender to the other. It's the fact that Edward doesn't know exactly what Tedd's going through and just making assumptions that's the issue, and it's really the fault of both parties that this is happening,

Excuse me? A genderfluid teenager with NO reference for what it is they are experiencing, and it is THEIR fault that they cannot explain what is happening to them? I am sorry. I could not possibly disagree more strongly.

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It's because neither Tedd, nor Edward have really tried to communicate with each other over this, early on since Tedd didn't know what he was, he didn't know what to tell Edward. Now though Tedd knows he genderfluid and yet he's still won't go to Edward and be all "Hey dad, this is what I am, do you have a problem with it?"

I realize it would be hard as **** for Tedd to go up to his dad like that, and there's probably a 50/50 chance that maybe Edward is truly transphobic, but if he doesn't find out for sure, it's going to eat away at him and probably do more harm to him and those he cares about in the long run.

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While there is a certain logic to what your saying, you're trying to apply logic to emotions.

If that kind of thinking actually worked, Hack and I wouldn't have been getting mad at eachother over clashing views when drinking came up in another thread a while back.

Looking back on those events after the fact the people aren't going to see the logical sequence the events took, or the psychology behind how the different responses lead to each-other, they're just going to remember how it felt.

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I'm going to go with neither of them are really at fault here, both of them lacked the information needed to make the best course of action clear and did what they thought was best at the time. I think Tedd was under more pressure, and had less of a chance of properly understanding the situation. 

You can't really expect a kid going through puberty with longstanding bullying and self esteem issues, and feelings he has no context to understand to react logically to the situation can you?

Edited by Wildcat
For clarity. Hopefully

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