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      Welcome!   03/05/2016

      Welcome, everyone, to the new 910CMX Community Forums. I'm still working on getting them running, so things may change.  If you're a 910 Comic creator and need your forum recreated, let me know and I'll get on it right away.  I'll do my best to make this new place as fun as the last one!

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1 hour ago, The Old Hack said:

STAR TREK INSURRECTION.

I just got reminded of it. It still makes me just as furious as it did when I first saw it. IT SUCKS.

Remember that all characters were basically under influence - specifically, influence of teenager hormones. That explains a lot.

2 hours ago, InfiniteRemnant said:

A place to discuss terrible movies, because hack seems to be tired of these conversations taking over other threads.

Can I use this to discuss Star Trek XI or is that bad enough to warrant it's own forum? :)

14 hours ago, InfiniteRemnant said:

okay, tracked down a copy online

I'm actually surprised it's not linked directly from memory alpha.

14 hours ago, InfiniteRemnant said:

-the pre-refit design of Nero's ship still has unnecessary spikes I've never seen on other romulan ships. even the Reman Scimitar Class has a smoother hull profile than that, and it was intentionally designed to be intimidating. No explanation is given. WTF? 

It's not like we saw that many mining ships.

14 hours ago, InfiniteRemnant said:

-A TRILITHIUM BOMB WOULD HAVE WORKED JUST FINE IN COLLAPSING THE STAR LONG BEFORE IT BECAME A SUPERNOVA. THIS ENTIRE SCENARIO DIDN'T NEED TO HAPPEN! not only that but it's a waste byproduct of warp technology, making it abundant unlike the raw material to make RM. thirdly, it's a romulan invention that Tolian Soran STOLE in Generations, they even attacked him over it. They wouldn't need to run around asking other people for help, they could make the thing themselves.

Trilithium actually CAUSES the star to became supernova. It's possible that it would make the situation even worse (or same, just sooner). If you accept the idea that supernova explosion affects other solar systems (which it actually does ... but, like, years after the explosion, because the shockwave is slower than speed of light ; also, I think shields will be enough to protect from that.)

14 hours ago, InfiniteRemnant said:

-that ship was able to effortlessly mop the floor with Post-Dominion-War 24th century ships. How the hell did kirk even scratch the paint?

The ship being refited instead of built that way from start might actually explain that: it was a rush job, the ship had numerous weakness ... and it might've been damaged when sucked to the black hole. They didn't activated cloaking device since appearing in past, did they?

Also, which conflict exactly you talk about? Klingons were on the side of Dominion most of the war, and lost a lot of ships (some of them directly at DS9). And I didn't saw any Negh'Var in the conflict anyway ; it looked as OLD and SMALL ships actually.

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5 minutes ago, hkmaly said:
14 hours ago, InfiniteRemnant said:

-A TRILITHIUM BOMB WOULD HAVE WORKED JUST FINE IN COLLAPSING THE STAR LONG BEFORE IT BECAME A SUPERNOVA. THIS ENTIRE SCENARIO DIDN'T NEED TO HAPPEN! not only that but it's a waste byproduct of warp technology, making it abundant unlike the raw material to make RM. thirdly, it's a romulan invention that Tolian Soran STOLE in Generations, they even attacked him over it. They wouldn't need to run around asking other people for help, they could make the thing themselves.

Trilithium actually CAUSES the star to became supernova. It's possible that it would make the situation even worse (or same, just sooner). If you accept the idea that supernova explosion affects other solar systems (which it actually does ... but, like, years after the explosion, because the shockwave is slower than speed of light ; also, I think shields will be enough to protect from that.)

based on what the comic described, the problem wasn't the supernova itself, (startrek has used supernovas as plot devices before.) it was the fact that this one was unusual and was absorbing planets and other stars in a way that would cause a cascade reaction across the entire galaxy, that was the issue. the point of the black hole was to interrupt/halt that process.

collapsing the star early would also have interrupted the process. and romulans being the paranoid egotistists they tend to be, would have tried their own gizmo long before even considering asking for help.

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5 minutes ago, InfiniteRemnant said:

collapsing the star early would also have interrupted the process

I'm not sure about that ...

5 minutes ago, InfiniteRemnant said:

and romulans being the paranoid egotistists they tend to be, would have tried their own gizmo long before even considering asking for help.

... on the other hand, this is very good point. Even if Romulan scientists would said it wouldn't help, I would give at least 50% they will try that.

7 minutes ago, InfiniteRemnant said:

it was the fact that this one was unusual and was absorbing planets and other stars in a way that would cause a cascade reaction across the entire galaxy

Must've been EXTREMELY unusual to cause FTL shockwave.

(Actually, they didn't even DESCRIBED it as FTL. Apparently, Romulus is WEEKS from some star.)

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15 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

The ship being refited instead of built that way from start might actually explain that: it was a rush job, the ship had numerous weakness ... and it might've been damaged when sucked to the black hole. They didn't activated cloaking device since appearing in past, did they?

the comic claims the ship should be able to self repair and self improve, it is BORG technology after all, you know how well they adapt to threats. that shouldn't be an issue.

17 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Also, which conflict exactly you talk about? Klingons were on the side of Dominion most of the war, and lost a lot of ships (some of them directly at DS9). And I didn't saw any Negh'Var in the conflict anyway ; it looked as OLD and SMALL ships actually.

the klingons were never on the side of the dominion. they invaded cardasia because they thought cardasia had been taken control of by the founders, then fought the federation because they thought the federation had sided with cardasia against them, then after finding out they had a changeling mole in their upper ranks sided with the federation and spent the remaining 3/4 of the war fighting the dominion itself alongside the federation. besides which, who they were fighting is less relevant than the fact that they were. Historicaly, periods of active combat tend to accelerate advances in military tech through virtue of necessity.

Also, the vast majority of klingon ship classes re-use bird of prey hull geometry on varying scales, appearance means nothing. The K'Vort class dwarf galaxy class ships and are considered battlecruisers, despite using bird of prey hull geometry. re using an old hull shape doesn't mean the ship hasn't had significant shield and weapon upgrades (look at the akira and steamrunner classes, they reuse most if not all of the old NX class's hull design elements, especially the akira, but are centuries ahead of it.) over the course of the war, which they would have had to have had given everyone else did and they were keeping up with them.

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44 minutes ago, hkmaly said:
2 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

STAR TREK INSURRECTION.

I just got reminded of it. It still makes me just as furious as it did when I first saw it. IT SUCKS.

Remember that all characters were basically under influence - specifically, influence of teenager hormones. That explains a lot.

that's a worse excuse than the theory that Startrek V is just Kirk having a drunken daydream/dream while on shore-leave.

Also it doesn't explain why data is acting just as dumb as riker and picard.

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1 hour ago, InfiniteRemnant said:

the comic claims the ship should be able to self repair and self improve, it is BORG technology after all, you know how well they adapt to threats. that shouldn't be an issue.

It's not DIRECTLY Borg technology like stolen piece of cube. They must done something to make it not assimilate the crew.

1 hour ago, InfiniteRemnant said:

the klingons were never on the side of the dominion. they invaded cardasia because they thought cardasia had been taken control of by the founders, then fought the federation because they thought the federation had sided with cardasia against them, then after finding out they had a changeling mole

Oh. Right. Their ship commanded by Founders and their attack on DS9 throw me off, forgot for a moment what the Founders are and that it might not be because they were on same side.

1 hour ago, InfiniteRemnant said:

Also, the vast majority of klingon ship classes re-use bird of prey hull geometry on varying scales, appearance means nothing. The K'Vort class dwarf galaxy class ships and are considered battlecruisers, despite using bird of prey hull geometry. re using an old hull shape doesn't mean the ship hasn't had significant shield and weapon upgrades

.... they doing it deliberately to confuse me their enemies, right? Anyway, K'Vort is half the mass of Galaxy (at least according to Memory Beta), sure it looks bigger but that's because of the wings. Vor'cha, while smaller, are more advanced and more heavily armed (and are classified as HEAVY cruisers).

But you're right, just because it looks like K'Vorts doesn't mean they didn't had upgrades. I would still be more impressed if Narada destroyed Negh'Var.

(Regarding "doesn't matter which side they were on" ... do you think Cardassia ended the war with better technology?)

1 hour ago, InfiniteRemnant said:

Also it doesn't explain why data is acting just as dumb as riker and picard.

As seen in Naked Now, he can get into lot of various influences. (Actually, I don't like it in Naked Now either ... but I'm making that argument as advocatus diaboli.)

I would definitely not consider Insurrection as bad as XI. Or V. Not speaking about XII.

 

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The only Star Trek movies I'd call even close to terrible are The Motion Picture and The Final Frontier, and while I don't particularly like Insurrection, I don't share the common complaint that everyone else here seems to be drawing on.

My most hated movies are The Last Airbender and The Legend of the Titanic.

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5 hours ago, hkmaly said:

(Regarding "doesn't matter which side they were on" ... do you think Cardassia ended the war with better technology?)

Cardasian satellite canons were developed during the war, and are a PAIN to get rid of, given you have to find and destroy a hidden control center while being bombarded from all sides. Cardasia itself may be in a million pieces, but the tech still exists. If/when they rebuild they'll have access to it.

4 hours ago, Tobyc said:

The only Star Trek movies I'd call even close to terrible are The Motion Picture and The Final Frontier, and while I don't particularly like Insurrection, I don't share the common complaint that everyone else here seems to be drawing on.

Most of what's wrong with insurrection boils down to people acting out of character, and doing dumb things. I'd put it more in the "meh, Bad but could be worse" category than in with the absolute crap.

ST-V:TFF is only redeemed by the fact that it technically never happened (see: dream theory. as ass-backwards and stupid as said theory is, the possibility that those events actually happened is worse.), and gives an interesting (read: horrifying) insight into how kirk sees his shipmates. 

ST:TMP... is irredeemable. the uniforms are bad, the new cast members can't act, the direction is questionable, the bit with the navigational issues near the start is a throwaway scene that serves no purpose, the premise is a rehash of a TOS episode that they padded out with artsy set pieces instead of writing longer scenes, and while it has the honor of being the thing that introduced rubber forehead kningons... it never bothered to TELL US THAT. it just shows a ship from a race we don't recognize getting wrecked. yeah, real helpful movie.

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I think everyone here knows Highlander 2 is firmly esconced at the top (bottom?) of my list of bad movies.  From a good movie with a fascinating premise, to a horrifically bad one that even manages to put the filet mignon premise through a meat grinder anf turn it into week-old White Castle sliders.  Ah, well, at least they eventually developed and put out the series, giving us most of five seasons of good sequel to the movie. :-)

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8 hours ago, InfiniteRemnant said:

 

Most of what's wrong with insurrection boils down to people acting out of character, and doing dumb things.

Any specific examples of that? By which I'm hoping you don't mean the crew siding with the Ba'ku against the people trying to kidnap and rob them?

5 minutes ago, CritterKeeper said:

I think everyone here knows Highlander 2 is firmly esconced at the top (bottom?) of my list of bad movies.  From a good movie with a fascinating premise, to a horrifically bad one that even manages to put the filet mignon premise through a meat grinder anf turn it into week-old White Castle sliders.  Ah, well, at least they eventually developed and put out the series, giving us most of five seasons of good sequel to the movie. :-)

The Quickening is somewhere among my twenty most hated movies. It might be lower if I liked the original more than I do. Can't comment on the TV series.

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52 minutes ago, Tobyc said:

Any specific examples of that? By which I'm hoping you don't mean the crew siding with the Ba'ku against the people trying to kidnap and rob them?

Screw the Ba'Ku. With a fusion-powered monofilament chainsaw. Those hypocritical Luddite festering sores on the rectum of the Universe are some of the most repellent creatures I have ever seen in the Star Trek universe. The Prime Directive did not apply to them -- they HAD the technology to travel in space, they just refused to use it on a piecemeal basis that made no sense just so they could be all holier than thou about it. It wasn't even their planet, they just moved there and then refused to accept others moving in, too. Sitting like a bunch of parasitical squatters on a health resource of vital value to the Federation which was in the middle of LOSING A WAR with the Dominion.

What makes the least sense to me is why anyone would bother to relocate them at all. Just move in and establish your own outposts and settlements. What would they do about it, look disapprovingly at you while bleating about the evils of technology?

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Haven't seen the movie but the one time, so I'm only going by what you say here.  And just based in your post above, your position sounds similar to the American expansionist sentiment that a group could only claim a territory to be theirs if they "improved" it by establishing a technological society upon it.  Any group, be it Natives or an Amish village, who wants to keep the territory around them in a more natural state is out of luck, another group can move in and establish mines and cities on the land they wanted to use as hunting grounds, gathering resources, and/or a buffer against the world -- because after all, they weren't doing anything with it.  If there's a resource on their lands (planet) that the bigger society wants, they should be free to take it.  They can't claim any bigger territory than what the bigger society thinks they have/need/deserve.

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1 hour ago, CritterKeeper said:

Haven't seen the movie but the one time, so I'm only going by what you say here.  And just based in your post above, your position sounds similar to the American expansionist sentiment that a group could only claim a territory to be theirs if they "improved" it by establishing a technological society upon it.  Any group, be it Natives or an Amish village, who wants to keep the territory around them in a more natural state is out of luck, another group can move in and establish mines and cities on the land they wanted to use as hunting grounds, gathering resources, and/or a buffer against the world -- because after all, they weren't doing anything with it.  If there's a resource on their lands (planet) that the bigger society wants, they should be free to take it.  They can't claim any bigger territory than what the bigger society thinks they have/need/deserve.

Hm. I can see what you mean, but this situation is more complicated than a simple land grab. For one thing the rejuvenative resource is unique to the (known) universe. This is not like a group of forcibly relocated people settling on a gold mine. Gold exists naturally in many places on the Earth and its principal value is artificial. Imagine instead that this was the only possible source of antibiotics in the known universe and that a bunch of Scientologists discovered it before everybody else and then settled on it while keeping its secret to themselves. And justified it by saying that non-Scientologists did not deserve three times longer lives with perfect health throughout their lives. (I know, antibiotics do not work that way. The stuff on that planet did.)

I admit that one reason I despise the Bu'Ka is how profoundly hypocritical and nonsensical their anti-tech religion or whatever is. Admittedly, this goes for their whole culture, which is so fake that it hurts my brain.

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7 hours ago, Tobyc said:

Any specific examples of that? By which I'm hoping you don't mean the crew siding with the Ba'ku against the people trying to kidnap and rob them?

It's a lot of little things mostly, and one huge one. "sing Worf, Sing!" comes to mind (that idea was way too random for picard)... as does data's boobs comment (he knows what that word means, he wouldn't repeat the phrase that way), klingon pimple overreactions, "aggressive tendencies", picard inexplicably thinking the slow-time trick they taught him will stop someone from bleeding out when they're part of the time displacement and logically it should be made worse (he's smarter than that. it actually working is another gripe but not one of characterization), and the alliance with the Sona in it's entirety; given that according to riker's 5min of research near the start, they're slave-trafficking space pirates who manufacture illegal weapons. yet he's the ONLY one who raises the very valid question of 'why are we working with these guys' and only does so in a joking way.

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4 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

What makes the least sense to me is why anyone would bother to relocate them at all. Just move in and establish your own outposts and settlements. What would they do about it, look disapprovingly at you while bleating about the evils of technology?

the collection process would have ruined the planet's atmosphere. its not a question of others arriving, but of anyone who doesn't leave dying.

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11 minutes ago, InfiniteRemnant said:

the collection process would have ruined the planet's atmosphere. its not a question of others arriving, but of anyone who doesn't leave dying.

Okay, this is a completely different gripe nothing to do with the locals -- given that we already know this is a unique resource not duplicated anywhere else in the known universe, why in the world use such a moronic kill-the-goose-that-lays-golden-eggs method instead of investing, say, a few years of research into finding a safer procedure that won't ruin the planet?

Oh wait, I know why. Because if you did, the contrived and strawmanned 'ooooh we are so mean to the poor innocent locals' plot wouldn't work.

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7 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

Okay, this is a completely different gripe nothing to do with the locals -- given that we already know this is a unique resource not duplicated anywhere else in the known universe, why in the world use such a moronic kill-the-goose-that-lays-golden-eggs method instead of investing, say, a few years of research into finding a safer procedure that won't ruin the planet?

Picard would actually agree with you on that, and makes sugestions to that effect about 45 min into the movie, but gets shot down the moment he points that out to the admiral. and given it's a pre-existing admiral who wasn't a moron when he showed up last time, is another example of out of character because plot.

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5 hours ago, InfiniteRemnant said:

Picard would actually agree with you on that, and makes sugestions to that effect about 45 min into the movie, but gets shot down the moment he points that out to the admiral. and given it's a pre-existing admiral who wasn't a moron when he showed up last time, is another example of out of character because plot.

Actually, we'd never seen Dougherty before that movie.

10 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

Screw the Ba'Ku. With a fusion-powered monofilament chainsaw. Those hypocritical Luddite festering sores on the rectum of the Universe are some of the most repellent creatures I have ever seen in the Star Trek universe. The Prime Directive did not apply to them -- they HAD the technology to travel in space, they just refused to use it on a piecemeal basis that made no sense just so they could be all holier than thou about it. It wasn't even their planet, they just moved there and then refused to accept others moving in, too. Sitting like a bunch of parasitical squatters on a health resource of vital value to the Federation which was in the middle of LOSING A WAR with the Dominion.

Firstly, nowhere in the movie are the Ba'ku presented as not wanting to share the planet. All they wanted was to not get kicked out of the small fraction of it they were actually using (and incidentally, I would argue that they have as much right to that fraction of the planet as the Federation do to any of their own colonies). As has been pointed out, it was the Federation who shot down the option of colonising elsewhere on the planet themselves, for the benefit of the Son'a.

Secondly, harvesting the radiation like that would be a terrible plan as far as the Dominion war goes. It's not going to save people dying on captured planets, it's not going to save people after their starships have been destroyed in battle, and the relative few (out of the billions of projected casualties) who could be saved with the medicine aren't going to be any less vulnerable to dying the next time they're sent into the field.

And even if I agreed with the rest of your assessment of the Ba'ku (and I'm really not seeing it myself), it still wouldn't excuse what the Federation were doing or the horrifying precedent they were setting (ie, essentially giving themselves the right to shut down any non-Federation colony, regardless of how long its been there, as long as its at that moment in "Federation space"), and I would still be firmly on Picard's side.

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