q&a7 STORY: Wednesday, May 25, 2016

[Don Edwards 548]

Quote

Even if the book would look to have such titles just to mundane people, it makes little sense unless it's to make them unlikely to try to read it.

Assuming that mundanes can't read a spellbook, what DOES it look like to them? Not just the cover, but the contents.

You don't want them borrowing it (because the person it belongs to needs it, and it suddenly growing a few pages just as a mundane is about to finish it would be noticed).

You don't want them wondering why the owner has a book full of obvious nonsense - or something that doesn't even look like script.

The title needs to discourage them...

(Now I'm trying to think of a story where the title "A perfectly ordinary book (not a spellbook)" makes sense.)

[hkmaly 490]

27 minutes ago, Don Edwards said:

Quote

Even if the book would look to have such titles just to mundane people, it makes little sense unless it's to make them unlikely to try to read it.

Assuming that mundanes can't read a spellbook, what DOES it look like to them? Not just the cover, but the contents.

You don't want them borrowing it (because the person it belongs to needs it, and it suddenly growing a few pages just as a mundane is about to finish it would be noticed).

You don't want them wondering why the owner has a book full of obvious nonsense - or something that doesn't even look like script.

The title needs to discourage them...

(Now I'm trying to think of a story where the title "A perfectly ordinary book (not a spellbook)" makes sense.)

The best way to discourage someone from reading something is usually to make him thinks he will not understand it because he's missing the beginning and even if he catches he won't find the finale in this book either. So, whatever the title would be, the important part will be the "Part 4" or possibly even more explicitly, "part 4 of 7". I'm surprised none of the spellbooks we saw use this.

[Scotty 1,061]

37 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

The best way to discourage someone from reading something is usually to make him thinks he will not understand it because he's missing the beginning and even if he catches he won't find the finale in this book either. So, whatever the title would be, the important part will be the "Part 4" or possibly even more explicitly, "part 4 of 7". I'm surprised none of the spellbooks we saw use this.

I can safely say this works, my mom bought "A Dance with Dragons" not realizing that it was book 5 of the "Song of Ice and Fire" series, so refused to read it until I went and bought the other 4 books for her as a Christmas present.

[Howitzer 32]

1 minute ago, Scotty said:

I can safely say this works, my mom bought "A Dance with Dragons" not realizing that it was book 5 of the "Song of Ice and Fire" series, so refused to read it until I went and bought the other 4 books for her as a Christmas present.

Well, at least it's a really good book series.  She should wait to read them until The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring are released though.

[hkmaly 490]

8 minutes ago, Howitzer said:

11 minutes ago, Scotty said:

I can safely say this works, my mom bought "A Dance with Dragons" not realizing that it was book 5 of the "Song of Ice and Fire" series, so refused to read it until I went and bought the other 4 books for her as a Christmas present.

Well, at least it's a really good book series.  She should wait to read them until The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring are released though.

Well ... it's good series, but I'm not sure if person who don't realize she's buying book from middle of cycle is ready for the other ... surprises contained in the books.

[Scotty 1,061]

10 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

21 minutes ago, Howitzer said:

23 minutes ago, Scotty said:

I can safely say this works, my mom bought "A Dance with Dragons" not realizing that it was book 5 of the "Song of Ice and Fire" series, so refused to read it until I went and bought the other 4 books for her as a Christmas present.

Well, at least it's a really good book series.  She should wait to read them until The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring are released though.

Well ... it's good series, but I'm not sure if person who don't realize she's buying book from middle of cycle is ready for the other ... surprises contained in the books.

She's already read through them (this happened a couple years ago). She did it before she started watching the show. Now every time I go to do Christmas shopping she'll ask me to check if book 6 has been released yet, she was really hoping it would have been done before season 6 of the show started but not much she can do about it, she refused to boycott the show until she read the book she's that addicted to it.

[CritterKeeper 1,102]

7 hours ago, Scotty said:

She's already read through them (this happened a couple years ago). She did it before she started watching the show. Now every time I go to do Christmas shopping she'll ask me to check if book 6 has been released yet, she was really hoping it would have been done before season 6 of the show started but not much she can do about it, she refused to boycott the show until she read the book she's that addicted to it.

Some series are easy to follow more than one version at a time, others it doesn't work so well.  I've never had any problem keeping separate Lois & Clark, Smallville, etc.  The Sookie Stackhouse series, on the other hand, I couldn't watch the TV series and read the novels at the same time.  I was already committed to the novels; I'll have to pick up the TV series someday in the future.

[Xenophon Hendrix 47]

I've largely quit watching video versions of books, unless I have no intention of ever reading the book. Otherwise, I just tend to get angry at how badly the movie or television series is screwing things up.

I did find one or two exceptions before I instituted the ban. For one, the Michael York version of The Three Musketeers does an honorable job that stays true to the spirit of the novel. (Yes, there are some slapstick scenes in the book.) For two, the version of Dracula with Louis Jourdan is pretty good.

[Drasvin 123]

13 hours ago, hkmaly said:

17 hours ago, Drasvin said:

And to be fair, even if wizards don't learn spells from other people's spellbooks, it is still entirely possible to steal a person's spellbook to deprive them of a reference of their spells, forcing them to figure stuff out through trail and error (or to go through the trouble of getting a new spellbook), meaning keeping the spellbook safe is very important regardless of whether or not wizards have particular interest in them. If wizards do have particular interest in the spellbooks of others, then it would give the wizards incentive to either seek out someone willing to share a book peacefully, or engage someone in epic, dramatic combat for the possession of the book, assuming other magic users are properly protecting their books.

The difference is that "depriving people of a reference of their spells" will not be that big incentive. Option to learn their spells WILL be. And while those combats will be dramatic, they would also make harder to keep magic from public knowledge. And they would "militarize" magic - currently, lot of people have very different, INTERESTING spells, while real and serious risk of combat would mean most would want fireballs. We don't know the reason for it, it wasn't even directly mentioned, but from how the world look it's likely magic doesn't WANT to be mostly used in combat.

(At least on this half of world. The other half of world have lot of signs of magic being used in combat a lot there.)

Keeping magic out of the public eye is a concern of the governments and various other groups with a concern for public safety.  I'm not sure Magic itself cares about the general masquerade, as long as it's use doesn't go 'mainstream'. Also, the government has the means of giving standard issue spells through wands already. If they wanted to 'militarize' magic, they already have the means, regardless of how wizards get extra spells (also it seems the standard issue combat spell for the FBI is a lightning bolt-esque spell, which I guess has less risk of collateral damage?). And I wouldn't say that magic doesn't want to be used for combat. Quite a few characters have magic with direct combat applications: Susan (weapon summoning), Nanase (Guardian form, decoy, color clone, strength augmentation from ASMA), Elliot (Cheerleadra form and also strength augmentation from ASMA), Justin (Aura-based strength boosting beyond the basic augmentation afforded by ASMA), Not-Tengu(Monster form), Adrian and Abraham(admittedly they are both wizards, but still seem to have a decent repertoire of combat spells), and Noriko (possibly also a wizard, but a crazy powerful monster hunter regardless). And then there are the spells with incidental combat application: Ellen's various beams (She technically also has the ASMA strength augmentation option), Rhoda's size control magic, Dex's summoning (requires a power boost to be actually threatening, though might still be useful for distractions if need be), Nanase's fairy form, Luke's aura sight (useful for analyzing enemies' magic potential), and Tedd's analysis ability (like Luke's aura sight, but useful for understanding enemy spells and potentially finding a weak point). To me, Magic seems pretty fine with combat heavy applications. Just the comic puts greater emphasis on the characters' personal lives then the high action scenes.

 

14 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Note that obviously the best title for spellbook is something like Dungeons & Dragons: Player's Option: Spells & Magic, because that would be 100% protection of masquerade even if someone would read it whole.

I agree, but unfortunately, the people in-charge of handing out spellbooks seems to largely be government officials and immortals. The government officials are either going to be too stuffy to use game as the cover, or are going to use the Mr. Verres brand of obfuscation, which side-steps one disadvantage of putting an rpg title on the spellbook cover (someone getting interested in the book and trying to find a copy of it online). And I imagine the immortals, being entities that have been kinda, sorta alive for centuries, would tend to hold to tried and true methods, though some 'younger' immortals might experiment with new ideas like that. Also if a person goes to Ye Old Magic Shoppe to get a spellbook, it's likely they could get the book customized to their liking, though that would likely cost more than off-the-shelf books (Mr. Verres mentioned ordering custom spellbooks, which implies there are standard ones)

 

14 hours ago, hkmaly said:

18 hours ago, Drasvin said:

Also a read thought that popped into my head at one point: What happens to a spellbook when it's owner dies? Does the book retain the information within it, or does it become blank once the owner perishes? The idea is kinda pertinent to the 'wizards get spells from spellbooks' idea, but still is an interesting thought nugget otherwise.

Yes, very interesting question. Note that it might also completely disappear.

Good point. I had overlooked the fact that the books are generated whole cloth by magic.

[Don Edwards 548]

 

14 hours ago, Howitzer said:

14 hours ago, Scotty said:

I can safely say this works, my mom bought "A Dance with Dragons" not realizing that it was book 5 of the "Song of Ice and Fire" series, so refused to read it until I went and bought the other 4 books for her as a Christmas present.

Well, at least it's a really good book series.  She should wait to read them until The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring are released though.

I disagree. I read the first book and found no reason to pick up the second. There was not enough of an ongoing plot to hook me and I was already assured that any interesting character that still survived would die soon.

[Howitzer 32]

3 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

... I was already assured that any interesting character that still survived would die soon.

Well that's just wrong.  Do interesting characters die? Yes, yes they do. But just as many survive as well. As much as people like to say that George RR Martin likes to kill off his characters, it really doesn't happen that often. It's just that when it DOES happen, it tends to have immediate and huge ramifications. Also, a lot of the time you don't see it coming.

As for the plot, I'd say most of it happens in books two and three, which are all about the War of the Five Kings. Book one is mostly setup for the war, while books four and five are mostly about the aftermath of the war.

[hkmaly 490]

9 hours ago, Drasvin said:

Keeping magic out of the public eye is a concern of the governments and various other groups with a concern for public safety.  I'm not sure Magic itself cares about the general masquerade, as long as it's use doesn't go 'mainstream'.

There is BIG overlap between general masquerade and not going mainstream.

9 hours ago, Drasvin said:

Also, the government has the means of giving standard issue spells through wands already. If they wanted to 'militarize' magic, they already have the means, regardless of how wizards get extra spells (also it seems the standard issue combat spell for the FBI is a lightning bolt-esque spell, which I guess has less risk of collateral damage?).

Sure government wants THEM to have combat spells. Others, on the other hand? I'm sure government DON'T want most magic users having combat spells.

9 hours ago, Drasvin said:

And I wouldn't say that magic doesn't want to be used for combat. Quite a few characters have magic with direct combat applications: Susan (weapon summoning), Nanase (Guardian form, decoy, color clone, strength augmentation from ASMA), Elliot (Cheerleadra form and also strength augmentation from ASMA), Justin (Aura-based strength boosting beyond the basic augmentation afforded by ASMA), Not-Tengu(Monster form), Adrian and Abraham(admittedly they are both wizards, but still seem to have a decent repertoire of combat spells), and Noriko (possibly also a wizard, but a crazy powerful monster hunter regardless).

Doesn't want to be MOSTLY used in combat. Of course that vampire hunters, ASMA Dojo students and people who likes being monsters have spells usable in combat. Still, compare their spells with what minmaxing RPG player will get.

9 hours ago, Drasvin said:

To me, Magic seems pretty fine with combat heavy applications. Just the comic puts greater emphasis on the characters' personal lives then the high action scenes.

This is actually tricky: on one hand, we see how normal can a life of magic users be, not speaking about mundane people. On other hand, existence of magic inevitably have big influence on how the world looks and works. The masquerade can only explain SOME things. Wars tend to be hard to camouflage. Of course, you can always say that Dan goofed up and will need some deux ex machina to fix it when the issue became apparent.

9 hours ago, Drasvin said:

I agree, but unfortunately, the people in-charge of handing out spellbooks seems to largely be government officials and immortals. The government officials are either going to be too stuffy to use game as the cover, or are going to use the Mr. Verres brand of obfuscation, which side-steps one disadvantage of putting an rpg title on the spellbook cover (someone getting interested in the book and trying to find a copy of it online). And I imagine the immortals, being entities that have been kinda, sorta alive for centuries, would tend to hold to tried and true methods, though some 'younger' immortals might experiment with new ideas like that.

Government officials are less likely to adapt to new stuff than hundred years old immortals ... no surprise here.

9 hours ago, Drasvin said:

Also if a person goes to Ye Old Magic Shoppe to get a spellbook, it's likely they could get the book customized to their liking, though that would likely cost more than off-the-shelf books (Mr. Verres mentioned ordering custom spellbooks, which implies there are standard ones)

He was doing exposition. It's possible ALL spellbooks are custom, but he said it explicitly to stress it out. Still, there are probably different levels of customizations, with different price and time cost. Like ... my dissertation was technically custom book: it has title I selected, my name and obviously content I wrote. Yet I'm sure I had much less options to customize it than fantasy authors, starting with need to keep standard size. On the other hand, the company who turned it into book were able to do it in one hour, allowing me to do last modification on the day I needed to submit it.

 

[Drasvin 123]

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

10 hours ago, Drasvin said:

Keeping magic out of the public eye is a concern of the governments and various other groups with a concern for public safety.  I'm not sure Magic itself cares about the general masquerade, as long as it's use doesn't go 'mainstream'.

There is BIG overlap between general masquerade and not going mainstream.

True, the general masquerade is helpful for avoiding going mainstream, but it also can run counter to Magic's objectives. We know of Magic has a flair for the dramatic and by my account seems to want to be used. It largely gives spells that fits the recipients personalities and/or desires, spells that would in theory be desirable by the recipients and therefor be used more often. Also external triggers of awakenings that aren't immortals, which are more common than the internal triggers that do not, extrapolating from what Mr Verres says here, lead to energy build-ups that force the mage to use their magic or have it use itself at potentially inopportune moments. Internal triggers are likely exempt from energy build-ups because they either require intentional effort or come with their own impetus for magic use (if Jerry hadn't intervened, Susan's angst-induced awakening would probably have lead to an angst-induced rampage). A desire to be used, combined with a desire to be flashy and dramatic makes a general masquerade very difficult to maintain. It wouldn't be impossible to maintain, as long as you have people willing to work together to maintain it (or be cowed by potential punishments for attempting to break it).But Magic itself doesn't seem to care if the public knows it exists. It seems to want to be special and to be adored and appreciated. Possibly to be entertained.

 

2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

11 hours ago, Drasvin said:

Also, the government has the means of giving standard issue spells through wands already. If they wanted to 'militarize' magic, they already have the means, regardless of how wizards get extra spells (also it seems the standard issue combat spell for the FBI is a lightning bolt-esque spell, which I guess has less risk of collateral damage?).

Sure government wants THEM to have combat spells. Others, on the other hand? I'm sure government DON'T want most magic users having combat spells.

Of course the government doesn't want combat spells in the hands of civilians. The government and it's agents are (mostly) concerned with public safety. Unfortunately, the governments of the world get no say so in how the magic system is designed. Magic itself decides that.They simply get to react and work within and around the system. As implied by Mr Verres here, black market wands are fairly easy to make. The black market is currently kept manageable through a combination of small size (likely due to secret keeping and other active suppression) and the fact that the black market runs more on fiction than actual magic (so if you ordered a black market explosive, homing fireball wand, you might get the real deal, or you might get a useless stick covered in glitter and new age crystals), but Mr. Verres is concerned that breaking the masquerade would increase the size and danger of the black market by flushing the fiction out and driving up demand.

Also I just realized I didn't fully address your initial point about the variety of spells, if wizards gain additional spells through reading spellbooks. To be honest, even if wizards get additional spells from just seeing the spell cast, combat would still be a simple means of getting desirable spells. If the desired spell has any combat utility, direct or not, the wizard could simply attack the person and force them into a situation where they have to use the desired spell as often as possible. If the wizard needs to see the spell more often than would be feasible in the fight, then they could simply retreat, lay low, and attack again later. Rise and repeat until the desired spell is obtained or the spell's owner becomes unable and/or unwilling to use it in a fight, in which case the spell's owner is killed or captured for more direct torture. 

3 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Doesn't want to be MOSTLY used in combat. Of course that vampire hunters, ASMA Dojo students and people who likes being monsters have spells usable in combat. Still, compare their spells with what minmaxing RPG player will get.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean be that. A minmaxing RPG player is going to have powerful abilities, but unless it's a social (or otherwise non-combat) game, they're also going to be socially incompetent outcasts depending on the rest of the party (or the party face if it's a group of largely minmaxers) to get through any encounter that doesn't involve reducing things to chunky salsa and pink mist, and might even be weak in some aspects of combat if they are deemed unneeded for the build. Whereas the EGS cast is full of a lot of well-rounded characters with cool and interesting powers and a variety of social quirks and proficiencies. 

3 hours ago, hkmaly said:

12 hours ago, Drasvin said:

To me, Magic seems pretty fine with combat heavy applications. Just the comic puts greater emphasis on the characters' personal lives then the high action scenes.

This is actually tricky: on one hand, we see how normal can a life of magic users be, not speaking about mundane people. On other hand, existence of magic inevitably have big influence on how the world looks and works. The masquerade can only explain SOME things. Wars tend to be hard to camouflage. Of course, you can always say that Dan goofed up and will need some deux ex machina to fix it when the issue became apparent.

Wars can be difficult to camouflage, but some details about magic have leaked out into the general populace, even before the general masquerade was broken. There are numerous myths and legends, along with more modern conspiracy theories, urban legends, and truth disguised as fiction (that last one we have no confirmation for, but I wouldn't be surprised happening as long as the author writing the fiction is careful with which details are divulged. Could provide a nice plausible deniability) The masquerade has largely been maintained by the governments of the world and the majority of the immortals working to keep things under-wraps and from getting out of hand. Mr. Verres has an incredible knack for cover-up with the most flimsy of methods, like signs and shirts stating the disguise or the old tried and true of weather balloons and swamp gas, and canonically these methods work and work well, or at least well enough for the general populace. Skeptics will always be skeptical and all. The general masquerade is only breaking down now because one immortal started gaming the magic system and modern information technology to make the masquerade untenable. 

[Scotty 1,061]

7 minutes ago, Drasvin said:

True, the general masquerade is helpful for avoiding going mainstream, but it also can run counter to Magic's objectives. We know of Magic has a flair for the dramatic and by my account seems to want to be used. It largely gives spells that fits the recipients personalities and/or desires, spells that would in theory be desirable by the recipients and therefor be used more often.

I'd say it's more like Magic wants to have a bit of fun, but it doesn't want to be overwhelmed. Like it's fine with causing a few people here and there to awaken and give them funky spells and such, but if everyone knew about magic and how easy it'd be to get it, it'd be like a quiet coffee shop that had been content with serving 10-20 customers a day suddenly being featured on the top ten best kept secrets list and having hundreds of people coming in. If Magic is an entity with a mind controlling the system, it probably has it's limits for how much ground it can cover, actually it makes sense considering the way magic flows around the world with areas that can have more or less magic energy.

[Matoyak 51]

15 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

I disagree. I read the first book and found no reason to pick up the second. There was not enough of an ongoing plot to hook me and I was already assured that any interesting character that still survived would die soon.

Interesting. See, I thought the first book was brilliant. Still do. Thought the series would be equally good...and then I read books 2 and 3 and was very very disappointed.

[CritterKeeper 1,102]

I thought all of the books had some merit, but they suffered from 1) too much graphic violence and other misery, which I'm not opposed to in general but found wearing given so much of it, and 2) a desperate need for a good editor to tell GRRM to quit adding so many new characters, places, etc.  The later books reminded me of the later Harry Potter books, when J. K. Rowling was so in demand that no one could tell her what to do any more.

A good editor is vital to help a writer tighten up their story.  To tell a writer "I know you put your heart and soul into every one of these characters, and this new one is a particular favorite, but you've got too many characters already -- give the action here to these other characters you already have who you haven't used in half a book, and cut the page count for this section in half."  "Got that page count cut in half?  Okay, let's see.....hmm, I think you can lose another twenty pages, and these two scenes are redundant, take out one of them and put the good bits in the other."  "Four more Greyjoys?  You don't really need that many, combine them into two at most.  And why on earth are you sending a total stranger fake-Stark to Winterfell when you aren't really doing anything with one of the real Stark girls for this huge section here?"

That's one thing I've really appreciated about the TV series, the writers have done a lot of the editing to bring down the character count to something a lot more manageable and reassign plots in ways that make a lot more sense.

[Drasvin 123]

10 hours ago, Scotty said:

10 hours ago, Drasvin said:

True, the general masquerade is helpful for avoiding going mainstream, but it also can run counter to Magic's objectives. We know of Magic has a flair for the dramatic and by my account seems to want to be used. It largely gives spells that fits the recipients personalities and/or desires, spells that would in theory be desirable by the recipients and therefor be used more often.

I'd say it's more like Magic wants to have a bit of fun, but it doesn't want to be overwhelmed. Like it's fine with causing a few people here and there to awaken and give them funky spells and such, but if everyone knew about magic and how easy it'd be to get it, it'd be like a quiet coffee shop that had been content with serving 10-20 customers a day suddenly being featured on the top ten best kept secrets list and having hundreds of people coming in. If Magic is an entity with a mind controlling the system, it probably has it's limits for how much ground it can cover, actually it makes sense considering the way magic flows around the world with areas that can have more or less magic energy.

That's a good point. Though I would still posit that magic doesn't care about the general masquerade, even if it doesn't want to be overwhelmed. To use your coffee shop metaphor, the shop is fine with hundreds people watching through the windows, as long as they don't come in and cause a burden on the staff. Though that sounds a little creepy with the metaphor, since most coffee shop as far as I know aren't providing a performance or spectacle with their product, whereas magic kinda is.

[Don Edwards 548]

8 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

The later books reminded me of the later Harry Potter books, when J. K. Rowling was so in demand that no one could tell her what to do any more.

I HATE HATE HATE it when an author reaches that point.

I recently picked up a book from one of my favorite authors, in a series that I love, and found it incredibly disappointing. A complete Mary Sue would have been an improvement on the main character. (Every decision a Mary Sue makes works out well. This can't happen if the character never makes any decisions; the character apparently only ever made one decision in her life, in the chapter before Page 1; otherwise she just accepted the first decision anyone - including what she thought was a random bit of wind - shoved at her. But every other component of MarySue-dom was there.)

I can't believe any acquisitions editor would have ever bought that book on its merits. But "new book from Big Name Author"? Yep, no problem, skip editing, straight to publication. And now I'm LESS likely to get another book from that author.

[Drasvin 123]

5 minutes ago, Don Edwards said:

I HATE HATE HATE it when an author reaches that point.

I recently picked up a book from one of my favorite authors, in a series that I love, and found it incredibly disappointing. A complete Mary Sue would have been an improvement on the main character. (Every decision a Mary Sue makes works out well. This can't happen if the character never makes any decisions; the character apparently only ever made one decision in her life, in the chapter before Page 1; otherwise she just accepted the first decision anyone - including what she thought was a random bit of wind - shoved at her. But every other component of MarySue-dom was there.)

I can't believe any acquisitions editor would have ever bought that book on its merits. But "new book from Big Name Author"? Yep, no problem, skip editing, straight to publication. And now I'm LESS likely to get another book from that author.

Yeah. It totally sucks when that happens, and it's not limited to just literature. Big names in any medium can end up building 'echo chambers' around themselves which ultimately  makes their craft suffer and most don't realize the mistake until after they've already crashed, if they ever do.

To be fair, a story in which the main character never makes any decisions could be good if handled properly, probably with statements about free-will or a lesson about needing to learn to take control and have agency in one's life. Such a story would be difficult to write well, requiring a damn good author and an editor willing to trim the fat and fix problem areas to keep the story working and functional. But that's if the story is about a character that doesn't express agency in her life. If it's a story about something else...

[hkmaly 490]

19 hours ago, Drasvin said:

Also external triggers of awakenings that aren't immortals, which are more common than the internal triggers that do not, extrapolating from what Mr Verres says here, lead to energy build-ups that force the mage to use their magic or have it use itself at potentially inopportune moments.

Actually, what Verres says is that the NUMBER OF WAYS is bigger for external triggers. Being awakened by immortal might still be more common than all other ways combined. Or not, of course - we have no information in either direction (the fact that Pandora went on marking rampage doesn't count).

19 hours ago, Drasvin said:

if Jerry hadn't intervened, Susan's angst-induced awakening would probably have lead to an angst-induced rampage

With hammers. Which can only stun. I don't see any problem

Note that Susan's awakening likely count as proper, despite not matching any of Verres described way exactly ... but either her training with hammers counts as "work hard for it" or her being marked counts as "magic being trigger" despite not leading to awakening directly.

19 hours ago, Scotty said:

19 hours ago, Drasvin said:

True, the general masquerade is helpful for avoiding going mainstream, but it also can run counter to Magic's objectives. We know of Magic has a flair for the dramatic and by my account seems to want to be used. It largely gives spells that fits the recipients personalities and/or desires, spells that would in theory be desirable by the recipients and therefor be used more often.

I'd say it's more like Magic wants to have a bit of fun, but it doesn't want to be overwhelmed. Like it's fine with causing a few people here and there to awaken and give them funky spells and such, but if everyone knew about magic and how easy it'd be to get it, it'd be like a quiet coffee shop that had been content with serving 10-20 customers a day suddenly being featured on the top ten best kept secrets list and having hundreds of people coming in. If Magic is an entity with a mind controlling the system, it probably has it's limits for how much ground it can cover, actually it makes sense considering the way magic flows around the world with areas that can have more or less magic energy.

Actually the "mind" note is superfluous: with the way magic flows around the world, it's likely that with enough magic users, the amount of magic would start being limiting factor, with dramatic (and therefore high-energy) stuff being most likely to be cut off. Magic would probably start to work more deterministic, which is against her goals.

19 hours ago, Drasvin said:

If the desired spell has any combat utility, direct or not, the wizard could simply attack the person and force them into a situation where they have to use the desired spell as often as possible.

Uhhh .... if he will be using spell with combat utility ON the wizard, it might be hard for him to concentrate on learning the spell

19 hours ago, Drasvin said:

23 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Doesn't want to be MOSTLY used in combat. Of course that vampire hunters, ASMA Dojo students and people who likes being monsters have spells usable in combat. Still, compare their spells with what minmaxing RPG player will get.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean be that. A minmaxing RPG player is going to have powerful abilities, but unless it's a social (or otherwise non-combat) game, they're also going to be socially incompetent outcasts depending on the rest of the party (or the party face if it's a group of largely minmaxers) to get through any encounter that doesn't involve reducing things to chunky salsa and pink mist, and might even be weak in some aspects of combat if they are deemed unneeded for the build. Whereas the EGS cast is full of a lot of well-rounded characters with cool and interesting powers and a variety of social quirks and proficiencies. 

Exactly. EGS cast is full of a lot of well-rounded characters with big variety of powers, which would either not happen or be very exceptional in world where anyone having magic is forced to be ready to use it for defence ASAP.

13 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

I know you put your heart and soul into every one of these characters, and this new one is a particular favorite, but you've got too many characters already

... I though they are afraid to tell GRRM this because last time they did he killed the character in question ...

Decisions like this are hard. Some people don't mind if there is army of characters (is more realistic or something). Also hard to say which scenes are superfluous and which build atmosphere and stuff like that ... but EXACTLY because it's hard author needs to not do it alone. Unless it's Tolkien, he was so strict on himself he didn't published most of his work before death. But most authors can't do it on their own.

(Note: I originally planned to both read the books and see the series ; I'm behind with both, but with the books more.)

4 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

Every decision a Mary Sue makes works out well. This can't happen if the character never makes any decisions

... truly, if Mary Sue never makes mistakes, it can at least be said she's THAT good. If the decisions which always works out well are essentially random ... wait. Maybe if it's plot point. Unbelievably lucky character. Like Gladstone Gander.

Generally, I think the "Mary Sue" is overused, and one of the reason is that it's hard to define her properly: good author can make good story with ANY of "clear" signs of character being Mary Sue. Meanwhile, bad author will make bad story even if he deliberately avoids the signs of Mary Sue. Actually, ESPECIALLY if he tries to deliberately avoid such big and fuzzy list of signs. In worst case by inverting them (warning, tvtropes).

 

[Don Edwards 548]

Quote

Generally, I think the "Mary Sue" is overused, and one of the reason is that it's hard to define her properly:

Actually, the general definition of a "Mary Sue" is not difficult. What's difficult is defining the boundaries (exactly how {perfect|universally loved|beautiful|etc} is required?) and evaluating edge cases (is this character just inside the line, or just outside?).

But there are plenty of characters out there where it's easy to get near-universal agreement that "yep, Mary Sue" or "no, she isn't".

[Drasvin 123]

On 6/1/2016 at 5:46 PM, hkmaly said:

On 6/1/2016 at 9:36 PM, Drasvin said:

Also external triggers of awakenings that aren't immortals, which are more common than the internal triggers that do not, extrapolating from what Mr Verres says here, lead to energy build-ups that force the mage to use their magic or have it use itself at potentially inopportune moments.

Actually, what Verres says is that the NUMBER OF WAYS is bigger for external triggers. Being awakened by immortal might still be more common than all other ways combined. Or not, of course - we have no information in either direction (the fact that Pandora went on marking rampage doesn't count).

True, though the point of built in reasons to use magic still stands.

On 6/1/2016 at 5:46 PM, hkmaly said:

On 6/1/2016 at 9:36 PM, Drasvin said:

if Jerry hadn't intervened, Susan's angst-induced awakening would probably have lead to an angst-induced rampage

With hammers. Which can only stun. I don't see any problem

Note that Susan's awakening likely count as proper, despite not matching any of Verres described way exactly ... but either her training with hammers counts as "work hard for it" or her being marked counts as "magic being trigger" despite not leading to awakening directly.

She still has her old mark spell: summoning weapons from her magic chest, which would be substantially more dangerous when combined with stun hammers, especially as I think we've seen instances of Susan dual-wielding hammers.

Also Susan's awakening was proper because it was internally triggered (as this comic mentions that internal triggers do not result in magic build-up) by incredibly powerful emotions. While the event that caused the emotions was external, emotions are inherently internal. Though an emotion-based awakening still likely requires a large amount of magical 'strength,' otherwise the high schools would be even more swamped with magically potent teenagers.

On 6/1/2016 at 5:46 PM, hkmaly said:

On 6/1/2016 at 9:53 PM, Scotty said:

On 6/1/2016 at 9:36 PM, Drasvin said:

True, the general masquerade is helpful for avoiding going mainstream, but it also can run counter to Magic's objectives. We know of Magic has a flair for the dramatic and by my account seems to want to be used. It largely gives spells that fits the recipients personalities and/or desires, spells that would in theory be desirable by the recipients and therefor be used more often.

I'd say it's more like Magic wants to have a bit of fun, but it doesn't want to be overwhelmed. Like it's fine with causing a few people here and there to awaken and give them funky spells and such, but if everyone knew about magic and how easy it'd be to get it, it'd be like a quiet coffee shop that had been content with serving 10-20 customers a day suddenly being featured on the top ten best kept secrets list and having hundreds of people coming in. If Magic is an entity with a mind controlling the system, it probably has it's limits for how much ground it can cover, actually it makes sense considering the way magic flows around the world with areas that can have more or less magic energy.

Actually the "mind" note is superfluous: with the way magic flows around the world, it's likely that with enough magic users, the amount of magic would start being limiting factor, with dramatic (and therefore high-energy) stuff being most likely to be cut off. Magic would probably start to work more deterministic, which is against her goals.

Magic is a force capable of flagrantly violating the laws of reality. If Magic wanted there to be enough energy for everyone to use big, dramatic spells, there would be enough energy for everyone to use big,dramatic spells, Conservation of Energy be damned.

On 6/1/2016 at 5:46 PM, hkmaly said:

On 6/1/2016 at 9:36 PM, Drasvin said:

If the desired spell has any combat utility, direct or not, the wizard could simply attack the person and force them into a situation where they have to use the desired spell as often as possible.

Uhhh .... if he will be using spell with combat utility ON the wizard, it might be hard for him to concentrate on learning the spell

With proper planing (such a bold approach would require a descent amount of intelligence and forethought to avoid getting blasted into a bazillion pieces), the wizard can ensure conditions such that the wizard would be able to concentrate on learning the spell. Simplest would be to attack the person with a summon and watch from the shadows. If summons are out of the question, then there are still possible strategies. If the desired spell is defensive, then the wizard largely has to keep the target on the defensive, attacking consistently and steadily enough that the target doesn't get the chance to go on the offensive. Offensive spells would be trickier, as it would require ample defenses so the wizard isn't overwhelmed but also for conditions to be right so that the target doesn't simply flee.

 

On 6/1/2016 at 5:46 PM, hkmaly said:

On 6/1/2016 at 9:36 PM, Drasvin said:

On 5/31/2016 at 5:50 PM, hkmaly said:

Doesn't want to be MOSTLY used in combat. Of course that vampire hunters, ASMA Dojo students and people who likes being monsters have spells usable in combat. Still, compare their spells with what minmaxing RPG player will get.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean be that. A minmaxing RPG player is going to have powerful abilities, but unless it's a social (or otherwise non-combat) game, they're also going to be socially incompetent outcasts depending on the rest of the party (or the party face if it's a group of largely minmaxers) to get through any encounter that doesn't involve reducing things to chunky salsa and pink mist, and might even be weak in some aspects of combat if they are deemed unneeded for the build. Whereas the EGS cast is full of a lot of well-rounded characters with cool and interesting powers and a variety of social quirks and proficiencies. 

Exactly. EGS cast is full of a lot of well-rounded characters with big variety of powers, which would either not happen or be very exceptional in world where anyone having magic is forced to be ready to use it for defence ASAP.

Except there are already a significant number of threats that demand combat readiness. First and foremost is the vampires/abberations. While they would be unlikely to directly attack an awakened person if not forced to, they could potentially target the friends and loved ones of those that are awakened. We've also seen that vampires will intentionally hunt down people with an inherent talent for vampire hunting but that are still Sleeping. In France, Susan was targeted and Diane was targeted by the Spiderpire. Also, unless one has access to a means to track vampires, they can seemingly come out of nowhere. There were seven vampires in downtown Moperville, and the main cast were none the wiser until Andrea told them about it. So any mage worrying about looming threats is going to have to worry about vampires attacking their friends and loved ones.

Secondly, there is the threat of crazy magic-users like Not-Tengu. Even though they were expecting dangerous out-of-towners to be drawn to the high energy levels, the group was still blindsided by him and his ploy. Imagine how much damage he could have caused if he was less interested in creating a cult to feed his ego and more interested in spreading terror and chaos.

Thirldly, and most significantly, is the threat of crazed immortals, like Pandora and Voltaire. Immortals cannot be detected unless they want to be, not even by other immortals. While they have some very solid rules to prevent spoiling the sandbox, those rules have rather massive loopholes. All it would take for a bored and/or angry imortal to cause trouble would be to mark someone with a useful spell, then get a piece of jewelry onto that person, load them up on enough magical power to remove coherent thought, and then guide them into mayhem. Or one could take Voltaire's route of lies and manipulation to get a powerful entity to attack a weaker one.

Largely, what stops these threats from being constant is the threat of repercussions. The non-Immortal threats have to worry about both the law and monster hunters.All of the governments of the world (or at least the stable ones) have divisions for dealing with paranormal threats. So monsters and other magic-users of ill-repute have to slink in the shadows and try to avoid the gaze of these organizations, lest the hammer of justice fall upon their head. And even in the shadows, they have to worry about monster hunters, freelancers and good Samaritans that seek to make the world a safer place. Even Immortals have to tread lightly, lest they risk over stepping the bounds of the rules, or angering another Immortal who will put into motion their own machinations to cause trouble for the first Immortal (though some Immortals might see that as a plus...), or angering a powerful non-Immortal that might attack and possibly over-power them (That certainly looks like concern in panel five)

[hkmaly 490]

20 hours ago, Drasvin said:

She still has her old mark spell: summoning weapons from her magic chest, which would be substantially more dangerous when combined with stun hammers, especially as I think we've seen instances of Susan dual-wielding hammers.

Sure, she does have that spell, but I still think her rampage would be with the hammers, because those will be the weapons she'll instinctively use. Unless she trained with the "real" weapons much more than shown.

20 hours ago, Drasvin said:

On 06/01/2016 at 0:46 AM, hkmaly said:

Actually the "mind" note is superfluous: with the way magic flows around the world, it's likely that with enough magic users, the amount of magic would start being limiting factor, with dramatic (and therefore high-energy) stuff being most likely to be cut off. Magic would probably start to work more deterministic, which is against her goals.

Magic is a force capable of flagrantly violating the laws of reality. If Magic wanted there to be enough energy for everyone to use big, dramatic spells, there would be enough energy for everyone to use big,dramatic spells, Conservation of Energy be damned.

Magic is a force capable of flagrantly violating SOME laws of reality. That doesn't means there are no laws which it MUST follow - although we will likely have hard time to differentiate between what magic wants and what it must do - if that distinction even have any sense (water usually flows down because it wants or because it must?). Also, it would be similar to what happened with Uryuom: every Uryuom can use a type of energy classified as magic, but it's completely predictable, without any drama.

20 hours ago, Drasvin said:

Offensive spells would be trickier, as it would require ample defenses so the wizard isn't overwhelmed but also for conditions to be right so that the target doesn't simply flee.

That's what I was talking about (you're right that forcing magic user to use defensive spells shouldn't be that hard nor that risky.)

20 hours ago, Drasvin said:

First and foremost is the vampires/abberations.

20 hours ago, Drasvin said:

 There were seven vampires in downtown Moperville

There was seven vampires in downtown Moperville and it's notable and big cause of concern. Most magic users likely don't know aberrations exists AND will never meet one. Case in point, Edward didn't considered necessary to warn Elliot and Ellen about them. He also didn't warned Diane yet. Susan needed to go to France before being attacked - nothing happened till then.

20 hours ago, Drasvin said:

Secondly, there is the threat of crazy magic-users like Not-Tengu. Even though they were expecting dangerous out-of-towners to be drawn to the high energy levels, the group was still blindsided by him and his ploy. Imagine how much damage he could have caused if he was less interested in creating a cult to feed his ego and more interested in spreading terror and chaos.

Despite all talk about Not-Tengu not being special, the amount of magic users like that is apparently low and generally, people like Noriko are able to hunt them down before they cause serious damage. Also, they generally won't attack other magic users - for spreading terror, attacking civilians is more effective. Note that he only attacked BECAUSE he had personal vendetta against Noriko. And BTW, I suspect the cult didn't feed just his EGO, but also his magic.

20 hours ago, Drasvin said:

Thirldly, and most significantly, is the threat of crazed immortals, like Pandora and Voltaire.

Again, this obviously don't happen often. Pandora is likely only immortal that much crazy (Voltaire, while more evil, is likely less crazy). And note that not everyone reacts to magic power like Dex.

20 hours ago, Drasvin said:

Largely, what stops these threats from being constant is the threat of repercussions. The non-Immortal threats have to worry about both the law and monster hunters.All of the governments of the world (or at least the stable ones) have divisions for dealing with paranormal threats. So monsters and other magic-users of ill-repute have to slink in the shadows and try to avoid the gaze of these organizations, lest the hammer of justice fall upon their head. And even in the shadows, they have to worry about monster hunters, freelancers and good Samaritans that seek to make the world a safer place.

We don't know what the relationship between governments and paranormal organizations is: it's possible that USA is exception rather than rule. But that's not important: yes, there are organizations maintaining the status quo through threat of repercussions, and they have enough battle-trained magic users for this threat to be taken seriously ... which might not really work as good in case of more combat oriented magic. Look at wild west for example how the society where everyone needs to be ready to defend himself may look.

Also, it could be bigger potential for corruption - government might be using the same threat of repercussions against magic users to allow government wizards to learn new spells.

20 hours ago, Drasvin said:

Even Immortals have to tread lightly, lest they risk over stepping the bounds of the rules, or angering another Immortal who will put into motion their own machinations to cause trouble for the first Immortal (though some Immortals might see that as a plus...), or angering a powerful non-Immortal that might attack and possibly over-power them (That certainly looks like concern in panel five)

I'm not sure if Voltaire was lying when said she's not threat to him. And Jerry even implied that there IS some self-defence exception to the "empower and guide" cause. On the other hand, Voltaire WAS looking concerned, so maybe there IS something Tara could do to him if he wouldn't retreat quickly - possibly not kill him but still harm him or cause pain.

 

[Drasvin 123]

On 6/6/2016 at 5:56 PM, hkmaly said:

On 6/6/2016 at 9:09 PM, Drasvin said:

She still has her old mark spell: summoning weapons from her magic chest, which would be substantially more dangerous when combined with stun hammers, especially as I think we've seen instances of Susan dual-wielding hammers.

Sure, she does have that spell, but I still think her rampage would be with the hammers, because those will be the weapons she'll instinctively use. Unless she trained with the "real" weapons much more than shown.

I imagine she has some training with real weapons. When the comic first started, she was an extreme cynic that strove to hold to (a biased version of) logic and while it might not be a pleasant line of thought, being prepared for a vampire attack would be a reasonable course of action, especially as she's already been specifically targeted once.

 

On 6/6/2016 at 5:56 PM, hkmaly said:

On 6/6/2016 at 9:09 PM, Drasvin said:

On 6/1/2016 at 5:46 PM, hkmaly said:

Actually the "mind" note is superfluous: with the way magic flows around the world, it's likely that with enough magic users, the amount of magic would start being limiting factor, with dramatic (and therefore high-energy) stuff being most likely to be cut off. Magic would probably start to work more deterministic, which is against her goals.

Magic is a force capable of flagrantly violating the laws of reality. If Magic wanted there to be enough energy for everyone to use big, dramatic spells, there would be enough energy for everyone to use big,dramatic spells, Conservation of Energy be damned.

Magic is a force capable of flagrantly violating SOME laws of reality. That doesn't means there are no laws which it MUST follow - although we will likely have hard time to differentiate between what magic wants and what it must do - if that distinction even have any sense (water usually flows down because it wants or because it must?).

For water, the distinction doesn't make any sense, as it doesn't have a will of it's own(as far as we know at least), while magic does have a will of it's own. Also we have seen it massive violate the law of Conservation of Energy and Matter with Nanase's doll spell. That spell creates a permanent doll, made out what seems to be wood. I'm not sure how much mass the doll has, and searching for the mass of a comparable-sized doll through google was largely inconclusive, but assuming the doll has a mass of 2 lb_m (0.907185 kg), calculating E=mc² gives us approximentaly 81.5337 petaJoules of energy to create such an object according to real life physics. That's roughly equivalent to 1294 times the energy released by the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima.

On 6/6/2016 at 5:56 PM, hkmaly said:

Also, it would be similar to what happened with Uryuom: every Uryuom can use a type of energy classified as magic, but it's completely predictable, without any drama.

Uryuom abilities are predictable because those abilities are part of their anatomy and biology. Unpredictable biology tends to have severe consequences. Also by that token, it would be possible that there could be conditions that make Uryuom abilities chaotic and dramatic. Such conditions would be like severe allergies or illnesses. Hopefully rare, extremely worrisome when they happen, and potentially dangerous (depending on how exactly Uryuom biology works) if not treated.

On 6/6/2016 at 5:56 PM, hkmaly said:

On 6/6/2016 at 9:09 PM, Drasvin said:

First and foremost is the vampires/abberations.

On 6/6/2016 at 9:09 PM, Drasvin said:

 There were seven vampires in downtown Moperville

There was seven vampires in downtown Moperville and it's notable and big cause of concern. Most magic users likely don't know aberrations exists AND will never meet one. Case in point, Edward didn't considered necessary to warn Elliot and Ellen about them. He also didn't warned Diane yet. Susan needed to go to France before being attacked - nothing happened till then.

And the same logic could be applied to wizards as well. We've seen four confirmed wizards on panel: Adrian Raven, Abraham(Who traveled all the way from Britain to hunt Ellen), Agent Wolf (A government agent of notable skill and power, so would certainly be high on their list to recruit and deploy and potentially problematic areas), and Magus (who is from a different reality altogether and is currently trapped on the spirit plane). Wizards might not be common enough for your average magic user to come in contact with them

On 6/6/2016 at 5:56 PM, hkmaly said:

On 6/6/2016 at 9:09 PM, Drasvin said:

Secondly, there is the threat of crazy magic-users like Not-Tengu. Even though they were expecting dangerous out-of-towners to be drawn to the high energy levels, the group was still blindsided by him and his ploy. Imagine how much damage he could have caused if he was less interested in creating a cult to feed his ego and more interested in spreading terror and chaos.

Despite all talk about Not-Tengu not being special, the amount of magic users like that is apparently low and generally, people like Noriko are able to hunt them down before they cause serious damage.

I imagine the reason that 'evil' magic users is low (seemingly at least) is in part because of the efforts of people like Noriko and the government agents and in part because most people have a degree of a conscience. Maybe not to Elliot or Grace levels, but enough that they don't actively hurt people without a really good reason.

On 6/6/2016 at 5:56 PM, hkmaly said:

Also, they generally won't attack other magic users - for spreading terror, attacking civilians is more effective.

Except most magic users are civilians. They don't walk around in some uniform that declares them a magic user nor are the majority part of the military or law enforcement. On top of that, the ability to sense magical power appears to be fairly rare. In the main cast, only Tedd (who is special) and Elliot have been noted to be able to sense magical power, and Elliot's ability is unreliable. Outside of the main cast, I know Greg, Luke, Abraham, Raven, the Immortals, and the griffin couple can sense magic, but I'm not sure if any other magic users have been noted to possess the ability. So if a magic user wanted to perform a terror strike on a random group of civilians, there might be a magic user in that group without them even knowing.

On 6/6/2016 at 5:56 PM, hkmaly said:

Note that he only attacked BECAUSE he had personal vendetta against Noriko.

I doubt his vendetta was the only reason, though it certainly was a driving one. If word of what he was doing got to the authorities, he would have to contend with government agents. Especially if he was IDed, because then the agents would bring in the big guns (magical SWAT team!). He might have been extremely arrogant, but I doubt he was stupid enough to give the government reason to believe he was alive and active.

On 6/6/2016 at 5:56 PM, hkmaly said:

On 6/6/2016 at 9:09 PM, Drasvin said:

Thirldly, and most significantly, is the threat of crazed immortals, like Pandora and Voltaire.

Again, this obviously don't happen often. Pandora is likely only immortal that much crazy (Voltaire, while more evil, is likely less crazy).

I don't know. Someone who wants to bring about a better world by killing innocent people sure does seem crazy to me.

On 6/6/2016 at 5:56 PM, hkmaly said:

And note that not everyone reacts to magic power like Dex.

True, but some people do. And there's a lot of people in the world. Just find one person, dope them up with magic, and then maneuver them into place for wicked, horrible plans. Immortals have the advantage of a large scope and the ability to wait a long time.

 

On 6/6/2016 at 5:56 PM, hkmaly said:

On 6/6/2016 at 9:09 PM, Drasvin said:

Largely, what stops these threats from being constant is the threat of repercussions. The non-Immortal threats have to worry about both the law and monster hunters.All of the governments of the world (or at least the stable ones) have divisions for dealing with paranormal threats. So monsters and other magic-users of ill-repute have to slink in the shadows and try to avoid the gaze of these organizations, lest the hammer of justice fall upon their head. And even in the shadows, they have to worry about monster hunters, freelancers and good Samaritans that seek to make the world a safer place.

We don't know what the relationship between governments and paranormal organizations is: it's possible that USA is exception rather than rule. But that's not important: yes, there are organizations maintaining the status quo through threat of repercussions, and they have enough battle-trained magic users for this threat to be taken seriously ... which might not really work as good in case of more combat oriented magic.

France at least has a paranormal organization as part of their government. I also have a hard time imagining that most governments would completely relegate something as significant and powerful as a covert, super-powered police force to a private organization. As for using battle-trained mages in cases where combat magic pops up, it wouldn't be an ideal situation, but would probably be akin to a shoot out with the police: An extremely dangerous situation with a high possibility of collateral damage, which includes to possibility of the police using their heavier armaments or calling for beefier help if the situation is dire enough

On 6/6/2016 at 5:56 PM, hkmaly said:

Look at wild west for example how the society where everyone needs to be ready to defend himself may look.

The wild west is a lot less wild then Hollywood depicts it. Yes it was a lawless and violent period, with three wars and a significant amount of banditry, but most of the violence (that not from the wars at least) and banditry was in part due to a combination of social instability of the expanding frontier and lack of funding and manpower for law enforcement in the area. In towns and cities with solid governance and law enforcement, there was a different story. In the real life Dodge City, one of the very first laws enacted after the municipal government was formed was to outlaw concealed carry of firearms, which was soon expanded to open carry as well. Even in the rural areas, most people depended on law enforcement, such as the Texas Rangers, for keeping the peace.

 

On 6/6/2016 at 5:56 PM, hkmaly said:

Also, it could be bigger potential for corruption - government might be using the same threat of repercussions against magic users to allow government wizards to learn new spells.

Provided that Pandora isn't lying (and there doesn't seem to be any reason why she would be), the US government is not above strong arming people with rare and useful abilities into service. That's a worrying thought, but the paranormal divisions are still subject to oversight and regulation, so there is likely a limit on what they are allowed to do.

On 6/6/2016 at 5:56 PM, hkmaly said:

On 6/6/2016 at 9:09 PM, Drasvin said:

Even Immortals have to tread lightly, lest they risk over stepping the bounds of the rules, or angering another Immortal who will put into motion their own machinations to cause trouble for the first Immortal (though some Immortals might see that as a plus...), or angering a powerful non-Immortal that might attack and possibly over-power them (That certainly looks like concern in panel five)

I'm not sure if Voltaire was lying when said she's not threat to him. And Jerry even implied that there IS some self-defence exception to the "empower and guide" cause. On the other hand, Voltaire WAS looking concerned, so maybe there IS something Tara could do to him if he wouldn't retreat quickly - possibly not kill him but still harm him or cause pain.

He admitted part of the reason she wasn't a threat to him was because he could retreat to a plane of existence out of her reach. So he wasn't completely lying at least. Voltaire being forced to retreat, and the implied existence of the self-defense clause, leads me to believe that a powerful enough mortal could maim, or even kill, an Immortal. Such a death likely wouldn't be permanent (if an Immortal permanently dying is even possible, I doubt it would be that "easy") and would instead be an improper death, not keeping the immortal out the game forever, but certainly handicapping them for a good long while. Though that leads to another question: how powerful is powerful enough? Assuming the Immortal is on the physical plane, it's implied that the government agents could fight and defeat an Immortal (assuming the Immortal is playing fair which they wouldn't), but Agent Wolf has been noted as one of the most powerful Wizards in the Midwestern USA.

[ijuin 572]

People on Wolf's level could presumably defeat an average Immortal (e.g. Jerry), but Pandora is believed to be the most powerful Immortal known, given the whole "power grows continually with age" thing. Her desire for unpredictability further amplifies the difficulty faced in fighting her. It is going to take a VERY dramatic battle (thus gaining aid from Magic Itself) to completely defeat her.