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partner555

NP Tuesday July 12, 2016

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Actually, some supposedly 'non-lethal' games can be surprisingly brutal. I remember playing Thief once, in which the entire idea was that you would never get spotted and manage to steal things without ever having to hurt anyone. The catch was -- this only applied to you and not the NPCs. Those buggers had no compunction whatsoever about using lethal force if they caught you.

Best example: I'd managed to raise the alarm and was in trouble. Guards were walking around with increased alert level, poking into every nook and cranny looking for me and calling out stuff like, "He has to be here!" or "Come out and surrender!" I was desperately trying to escape when a guard walked out right in front of me, yelled "THIS IS YOUR LAST WARNING!" and killed me.

I suppose he was right. It was my last warning ever. :danshiftyeyes:

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2 hours ago, partner555 said:

This is just one of those times a Willing Suspension of Disbelief is needed.

To be fair, there are lot of movies which require similar level of willing suspension of disbelief to the "not-killing" hero. And some even bigger (**cough** Batman **cough**).

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This is one of those moments where I do not go "ding ding ding ding ding" à la boxing match.

Takedown is punching, I do not think so.

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3 hours ago, hkmaly said:

To be fair, there are lot of movies which require similar level of willing suspension of disbelief to the "not-killing" hero. And some even bigger (**cough** Batman **cough**).

"You've got to learn how to threaten people better. From this height, the fall won't kill me."

"I'm counting on it."

*drop*

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6 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

Actually, some supposedly 'non-lethal' games can be surprisingly brutal. I remember playing Thief once, in which the entire idea was that you would never get spotted and manage to steal things without ever having to hurt anyone. The catch was -- this only applied to you and not the NPCs. Those buggers had no compunction whatsoever about using lethal force if they caught you.

Best example: I'd managed to raise the alarm and was in trouble. Guards were walking around with increased alert level, poking into every nook and cranny looking for me and calling out stuff like, "He has to be here!" or "Come out and surrender!" I was desperately trying to escape when a guard walked out right in front of me, yelled "THIS IS YOUR LAST WARNING!" and killed me.

I suppose he was right. It was my last warning ever. :danshiftyeyes:

Yeah, I remember that in Thief, and then you went to play TES:Oblivion and Skyrim and you could poke someone in the eye with an arrow, hide and the NPC you shot if they didn't die from it, would eventually assume it was just rats.

Also, shouldn't the date for this thread say Tuesday July 12?

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3 hours ago, Howitzer said:

"You've got to learn how to threaten people better. From this height, the fall won't kill me."

"I'm counting on it."

*drop*

There was more thought put into the first two acts of Batman Begins than all of the following films combined.
 

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Yeah, the concept of safe knockouts is basically Hollywood lies. There's no entirely safe way to force people unconscious. Even really controlled methods like surgical anesthesia have risks and usually only done when really needed.

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Practically speaking, an opponent does not need to be unconscious in order to be defeated--it is sufficient that they be unable to move or speak. The only reason to need them to be unable to see or hear is if you are doing something with them that you want them to remain ignorant of (e.g. to keep them from knowing where you are moving them to).

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10 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

I've read that if the person knocked out remains unconscious for more than a second, one should assume some brain damage has occurred.

Considering how people can get brain damage from repeating hit to the head which DIDN'T knocked them out, I consider this extremely likely. More important question however is how often can this brain damage be lethal - and it definitely is much more than Hollywood would suggest.

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3 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

In fact it used to be a party game... wonder if it's still around... yes it is.

That's not the sort of tie in knots I had in mind.  More like tie with knots.

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6 hours ago, mlooney said:

That's not the sort of tie in knots I had in mind.  More like tie with knots.

There's people who are into all sorts of things.  To get back to "non-lethal takedowns," I attended a class once that talked about how an arm around the neck can put pressure on the carotid arteries and render someone unconscious in several seconds (fastest if the other arm is locked across the back of the neck to occlude a smaller vessel there, too).  The airway is in the space left open by the corner of the elbow, so breathing is unimpeded.  They spent a decent amount of time explaining that this is considered high-risk because there is a small chance of death every time it's done, for example through dislodging plaque from inside the artery to lodge in the brain, or increasing pressure on an undetected aneurysm causing a rupture.  It's been banned in wrestling and the like.  Didn't stop people from taking advantage of the chance to try it while they had an opportunity to with an expert.

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Yeah, it's entirely possible that an undiagnosed medical problem could be discovered the hard way during the stress caused by a knockout. There's probably all kinds of circulatory issues that could be made worse by being choked. And it's not like people have power switches, no matter how you knock someone out it’s a process that is way outside of normal functioning and IS going to put a lot of stress on whatever body system you target.

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19 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

They spent a decent amount of time explaining that this is considered high-risk because there is a small chance of death every time it's done, for example through dislodging plaque from inside the artery to lodge in the brain, or increasing pressure on an undetected aneurysm causing a rupture.

Isn't the biggest risk the fact that if you keep it several second AFTER the person is unconscious the brain cells starts to die in big numbers?

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4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Isn't the biggest risk the fact that if you keep it several second AFTER the person is unconscious the brain cells starts to die in big numbers?

The point was that even if you *don't* hold it "too long," you *still* have a risk of someone dying.  That there is no safe way to do it, only higer and lower risk.

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