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Scotty

Story, Wednesday August 31, 2016

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While I agree the chance is slim, remember Carol Brown?

Carol Brown was made Sarah's sister because bunnies were saying she looked like Sarah and Dan just short of shrugged and "Sure, let's go with that." See here

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12 hours ago, hkmaly said:

I think there are not many parents who would know for sure when the conception happened.

Also ... isn't the phase of menstruation cycle more important than when exactly was the sex? I read somewhere that sperm can wait for the egg for few days ... actually, 3-5 days. With no effect on when the child will be born.

This is why you figure delivery dates as 280 days from the beginning of your last menstrual period, as the closest thing to a hard number you are going to be able to determine.  I understand there are studies using blood hormone levels to time implantation that maybe take a day off the average variability, but given that the variation is so high anyway and almost nobody is going to be taking daily blood tests in the first place that's more an interesting factoid than clinically useful information.

 

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2 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

Hmm, it likely depends on the test(s) being run.  I know when we did PCR tests in chem lab, we had to set up the gels, and then it physically took a certain amount of time for the molecules to move across them.  At least overnight, possibly later in the week or even the next week, I honestly don't recall now.  I don't know what sort of advances have been made since then, but I suspect for a proper comparison it would be more like days than hours.

It's not going to change much, it's a physical limit set by molecule size and how much voltage or solvent flow you can apply without destroying anything.  Depends on the test though.  The sample definitely lacks a particular marker might be something you can do in a day, or a comparison to say these samples aren't from something of the same genus.  If you want a subtle test like degree of kinship, 3 or 4 days is about the fastest you can hope for. 

Incidentally this wouldn't be very definitive among many of the options proposed on this thread.  Tests on siblings are going to be somewhat ambiguous.  A clear distinction between sisters, half sisters or first cousins is probably something no responsible lab will commit to very strongly.  It is after all theoretically possible to have only one chromosomes in common with a full sibling of the same sex, and none at all with one of the other.  Sure, not likely but possible.  A distinction between full sisters and children whose parents are twins or otherwise clones is outright impossible.

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Doing a DNA comparison between Susan and Diane would be comparatively easy. Mitochondrial DNA is easier to check; it should show if they have the same egg-mother. Nuclear DNA comparison would show if they are identical. But if they aren't identical, the comparison will give only a probability.

Diane should be co-operative with this, but if the tip-toing around bringing up the subject with Susan? Maybe her genetic sample can be CSI'ed from a toothbrush, hairbrush, disposable cup, etc. Want odds that the investigator will get the evidence without being caught? And to confirm that they were both adopted, a sample from Mrs. Pompoms (A.K.A. Ms. Maiden-name) would be needed.

I'm referring to more-or-less real-world genetic testing. The equipment Tedd has in his lab likely can make the comparisons, maybe before even telling Susan.

Which brings to mind a pretty neat idea: To get Diane into Susan's place and past Susan's mom, or to get Susan into Diane's place past her parental unit(s), Tedd can transform Susan or Diane into the likeness of any of the Gang of Eight familiar to the parental units in question. Some permutations of this:

  • Two Susans or two Dianes in the same place
  • Diane coming over to Susan's as Nanase, with a Nanase-fairy hidden in her hair to coach her.

I've already brought up the sister-from-another-world theory. We'll just have to wait until The Shive finds a way to dig out of the "not-twins" hole he dug.

Or maybe Susan and Diane will finally meet face to face, preferably by a large mirror.

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15 hours ago, Drasvin said:

The event DID take place on another plane of existence.

8 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

Yes, if Mr. Verres has been keeping the DGB up to date one everyone's powers, then he's likely also told them about the TFG.  I'm not sure if he knows how far Tedd has gotten in developing the watches, though.  His work takes him away, and Tedd clearly isn't comfortable sharing everything he does with his dad, especially things involving transformation.  If he sees Tedd or his friends transformed, he may have just assumed it was with the TFG.

He was TOLD about the watches and tested that they don't work outside Moperville.

8 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

He might be downloading copies of all of Tedd's files to a secure government server every night, for the government's magical scientists to analyse and expand on.  Or, it might be that Tedd is the only (successful) magical scientist in the DGB, or even in the world, because only he has the combination of the ability to see magic and a magic-rich environment to work in.

If Tedd is the only successful magical scientist in the DGB (which seems likely, I agree that the ability to see spells - which is dangerous rarity - was necessary for him to get that far, or at least that far so quickly), that's just MORE reasons for copying Tedd's files every night.

8 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:
Quote

Wait. Is THIS why he didn't test if Justin awakened yet?

He may well have run that test "off-screen" after the first fire demon, and/or after the dragon incident.  At that point, Justin was only marked, not awakened.  Have they said for certain how that device responds to someone who is marked?  Or, it might be that Justin had already shown magic ability from his ASMA training and everyone just assumed that was how he hit so hard.  (Or maybe the wand has a 'silent' mode now and he scanned Justin without telling the group....)

I consider him running the test "off-screen" as booooring :) ... not only we didn't saw that, it was not even mentioned.

Justin was already able to make illusions because his ASMA training, but I don't think the wand can't get any details to that. Details which would change when he was marked, even if it wouldn't be obvious the mark is the reason.

8 hours ago, mlooney said:

Carol Brown was made Sarah's sister because bunnies were saying she looked like Sarah and Dan just short of shrugged and "Sure, let's go with that." See here

I know. Which means Diane's father can became someone we know even RETROACTIVELY, if we make speculation which would make sense.

1 hour ago, Tom Sewell said:

Diane should be co-operative with this, but if the tip-toing around bringing up the subject with Susan? Maybe her genetic sample can be CSI'ed from a toothbrush, hairbrush, disposable cup, etc.

Hmmmm ... her insisting on cleanness might mess with this ...

1 hour ago, Tom Sewell said:

The equipment Tedd has in his lab likely can make the comparisons, maybe before even telling Susan.

Waaaait ... Tedd has the form scanner AND did already scanned Susan. If the scanner works on genetic level, they can just scan Diane and compare. So yes, totally.

1 hour ago, Tom Sewell said:

Which brings to mind a pretty neat idea: To get Diane into Susan's place and past Susan's mom, or to get Susan into Diane's place past her parental unit(s),

WHY.

First, they don't need them together.

Second, Diane's parents are not going to object to Susan, nor it needs to be hidden from them.

Third, they can easily meet anywhere else, including the Charlotte's place.

Fourth, they can get Diane into Susan's place with bit of dark blue hair color and high heels. Seriously, you don't need magic if they are already practically identical - and Mrs. Pompoms doesn't really check who's Susan takes home anyway. Remember Hey ma! I'm home and I've got people over? Sure, she looked at Justin ... but didn't really looked at Nanase and Ellen, did she? Unless she sees them TOGETHER, she is unlikely to notice.

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1 hour ago, Tom Sewell said:

Doing a DNA comparison between Susan and Diane would be comparatively easy. Mitochondrial DNA is easier to check; it should show if they have the same egg-mother. Nuclear DNA comparison would show if they are identical. But if they aren't identical, the comparison will give only a probability.

Diane should be co-operative with this, but if the tip-toing around bringing up the subject with Susan? Maybe her genetic sample can be CSI'ed from a toothbrush, hairbrush, disposable cup, etc. Want odds that the investigator will get the evidence without being caught? And to confirm that they were both adopted, a sample from Mrs. Pompoms (A.K.A. Ms. Maiden-name) would be needed.

I'm referring to more-or-less real-world genetic testing. The equipment Tedd has in his lab likely can make the comparisons, maybe before even telling Susan.

Which brings to mind a pretty neat idea: To get Diane into Susan's place and past Susan's mom, or to get Susan into Diane's place past her parental unit(s), Tedd can transform Susan or Diane into the likeness of any of the Gang of Eight familiar to the parental units in question. Some permutations of this:

  • Two Susans or two Dianes in the same place
  • Diane coming over to Susan's as Nanase, with a Nanase-fairy hidden in her hair to coach her.

I've already brought up the sister-from-another-world theory. We'll just have to wait until The Shive finds a way to dig out of the "not-twins" hole he dug.

I doubt Dan's going to have anything that elaborate, now that Nanase knows that Susan isn't adopted, there isn't any worry about breaking her and her mom up, telling her that Diane is a half sister might make Susan reconsider whether she should forgive her had or not, but she probably wouldn't be surprised that her father would have gotten other women pregnant. Hearing that Diane's birth mother gave her up for adoption might actually make Susan feel sorry for Diane, at least in Susan's case she may have gone through a nasty divorce because of her father's cheating, but at least she still had her mom, Diane's mom didn't want to take responsibility. Of course there are any number of scenarios where a mother would put up their child for adoption some of them quite dark (IE rape) but I'm not sure if Dan would go that route so I'm leaning towards the belief that it was consensual for both Diane's mom and Mr Pompoms but she got pregnant and didn't want to keep Diane.

1 hour ago, Tom Sewell said:

Or maybe Susan and Diane will finally meet face to face, preferably by a large mirror.

Or maybe pass by a large window with each of them on opposite sides, Diane would certainly know that she's looking at Susan, but Susan might believe she's seeing that blonde again.

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17 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Or maybe pass by a large window with each of them on opposite sides, Diane would certainly know that she's looking at Susan, but Susan might believe she's seeing that blonde again.

Indeed. And maybe not just Susan. We don't know if her mom ever met The Other Woman.

There's basically no getting around it, Susan is going to see The Other Woman in Diane whether or not she's prepared when she finally meets her. Seeing Susan and Diane begin to work out their relationship to each other is what I'm most interested in seeing in Sister III.

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2 hours ago, Scotty said:

Of course there are any number of scenarios where a mother would put up their child for adoption some of them quite dark (IE rape) but I'm not sure if Dan would go that route so I'm leaning towards the belief that it was consensual for both Diane's mom and Mr Pompoms but she got pregnant and didn't want to keep Diane.

The most likely and not that evil reason would be that while the sex was consensual, the pregnancy was unplanned and adoption was seen as logical solution. There are people who go for abortion in such case (at least based on some TV shows).

 

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4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Fourth, they can get Diane into Susan's place with bit of dark blue hair color and high heels. Seriously, you don't need magic if they are already practically identical - and Mrs. Pompoms doesn't really check who's Susan takes home anyway. Remember Hey ma! I'm home and I've got people over? Sure, she looked at Justin ... but didn't really looked at Nanase and Ellen, did she? Unless she sees them TOGETHER, she is unlikely to notice.

Susan's mom probably already knew of Nanase anyway. What I find most amusing on that page is in the last panel, apparently that big TV is a Cathode Ray Tube set instead of a Plasma or LCD, both of which would be too thin for Ellen to sleep on.

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10 hours ago, hkmaly said:

The most likely and not that evil reason would be that while the sex was consensual, the pregnancy was unplanned and adoption was seen as logical solution. There are people who go for abortion in such case (at least based on some TV shows).

This would have happened 18 years ago. I know it's not that far ago, but how accepted was abortion in the USA, culturally and socially, back then?

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8 hours ago, ijuin said:

What I find most amusing on that page is in the last panel, apparently that big TV is a Cathode Ray Tube set instead of a Plasma or LCD, both of which would be too thin for Ellen to sleep on.

I'd say it's more of a rear projection TV.

TV4sale2.JPG

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1 hour ago, exterminator said:

This would have happened 18 years ago. I know it's not that far ago, but how accepted was abortion in the USA, culturally and socially, back then?

My understanding is that it depended, and still does, largely on where exactly in the US one is. The country is a large and not at all homogenous place. In many places it would have been mostly a non issue.

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1 hour ago, exterminator said:

This would have happened 18 years ago. I know it's not that far ago, but how accepted was abortion in the USA, culturally and socially, back then?

More than it is right now.  Row v Wade was in 1973

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Just now, ijuin said:

Ok, but how about mid 1980s-mid 1990s Illinois (when and where Diane would have been born, depending on what year is the "present" in EGS)?

Still highly dependent on location.  The university campus I spent a quarter century on was quite a liberal town.  Some suburbs average more conservative, some more liberal.  There's also the individual social circle and family to consider.  You can live in a liberal town, but have a conservative family who go to a conservative church and send their kids to a conservative private religious school (cliche would be Catholic school, but there's a huge Evangelical-type K-12 school in my home town), and thus mostly be exposed to highly conservative attitudes your whole life.

Practical upshot is that a writer has plenty of options. ;-)

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18 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

Doing a DNA comparison between Susan and Diane would be comparatively easy. Mitochondrial DNA is easier to check; it should show if they have the same egg-mother.

It generally wouldn't.  People expect a lot more from genetic testing than it can deliver.  Places offering to find your relatives from mitochondrial or Y-chromosome samples are exaggerating a lot, or outright scams.

Mitochondrial DNA doesn't change that fast.  If you aren't a mutant (and you probably aren't) you have the same mitochondria as any other children of your mother (and the children of those of them that are girls).  Likewise your mother likely wasn't a mutant either, so you have the same mitochondria as your maternal grandmother and female line aunts, first cousins and first cousins removed descended from her.  Repeat for your grandmother and more distant cousins back to whoever was the last mutant.  In a matrilocal culture it wouldn't be too astonishing if most of the woman in the village to had the same mitochondrial DNA.

 

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1 hour ago, malloyd said:

In a matrilocal culture it wouldn't be too astonishing if most of the woman in the village to had the same mitochondrial DNA.

Yup, but the USA hasn't been a matrilocal society for quite some time. We have a deserved reputation for wanderlust; one of the biggest reasons the American Revolution broke out was that Britain passed a law against moving west of the Appalachians. There's enough variation in mitorchondrial DNA for it to be used as a first step in DNA identification. No match here, no need to go on to the more expensive and time-consuming analysis of nuclear DNA. 

 

19 hours ago, hkmaly said:

WHY.

First, they don't need them together. Except maybe when Diane really needs a vampire-killer right now.

Second, Diane's parents are not going to object to Susan, nor it needs to be hidden from them. Gee, could they see Susan as someone to alienate them from the child they raised? Diane would probably wonder about this question.

Third, they can easily meet anywhere else, including the Charlotte's place. Wouldn't be nearly as much fun.

Fourth, they can get Diane into Susan's place with bit of dark blue hair color and high heels. Seriously, you don't need magic if they are already practically identical - and Mrs. Pompoms doesn't really check who's Susan takes home anyway. Remember Hey ma! I'm home and I've got people over? Sure, she looked at Justin ... but didn't really looked at Nanase and Ellen, did she? Unless she sees them TOGETHER, she is unlikely to notice. Like Susan's mom isn't going to notice Susan wearing high heels, something she probably has never worn. And also, once Tedd gets involved, you think he's going to pass up an excuse to transform someone?

 

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On 9/4/2016 at 8:10 AM, CritterKeeper said:

Or, it might be that Tedd is the only (successful) magical scientist in the DGB, or even in the world, because only he has the combination of the ability to see magic and a magic-rich environment to work in.

I would certainly believe he's the MOST successful magical scientist of his approximate age and limited training, for the reasons stated - but the ONLY successful magical scientist? I doubt it.

(Also, like many scientists who are pioneers in their fields or unaware of what predecessors have already done/learned, he's approximately as much engineer as scientist.)

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6 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:
On 09/04/2016 at 1:21 AM, hkmaly said:

WHY.

First, they don't need them together.

Except maybe when Diane really needs a vampire-killer right now.

If she needs vampire killer RIGHT NOW then she wouldn't really have choice of place - or time to play with TF gun disguises.

6 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:
On 09/04/2016 at 1:21 AM, hkmaly said:

Second, Diane's parents are not going to object to Susan, nor it needs to be hidden from them. 

Gee, could they see Susan as someone to alienate them from the child they raised? Diane would probably wonder about this question.

Why? It's not like there were hiding that she's adopted. Also, they stayed in same city.

6 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:
On 09/04/2016 at 1:21 AM, hkmaly said:

Third, they can easily meet anywhere else, including the Charlotte's place. Wouldn't be nearly as much fun.

Fourth, they can get Diane into Susan's place with bit of dark blue hair color and high heels. Seriously, you don't need magic if they are already practically identical - and Mrs. Pompoms doesn't really check who's Susan takes home anyway. Remember Hey ma! I'm home and I've got people over? Sure, she looked at Justin ... but didn't really looked at Nanase and Ellen, did she? Unless she sees them TOGETHER, she is unlikely to notice. 

Like Susan's mom isn't going to notice Susan wearing high heels, something she probably has never worn. And also, once Tedd gets involved, you think he's going to pass up an excuse to transform someone?

Of course she will not notice high heels - because the height will match and who's looking at foots normally?

The second argument is better, it will certainly be hard stopping Tedd from transforming Diane.

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34 minutes ago, hkmaly said:
6 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:
On 9/4/2016 at 7:21 PM, hkmaly said:

Second, Diane's parents are not going to object to Susan, nor it needs to be hidden from them. 

Gee, could they see Susan as someone to alienate them from the child they raised? Diane would probably wonder about this question.

Why? It's not like there were hiding that she's adopted. Also, they stayed in same city.

Diane's parents likely don't know the circumstances of why Diane was put up for adoption. They probably do understand that there's a chance that Diane could have biological family somewhere and wouldn't object to the idea of Diane meeting them some day, especially now that she's 18, there isn't really anything they can do to stop her, heck, probably when it came around to telling Diane about being adopted, she might have even asked if it was possible she could have family somewhere.

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6 minutes ago, Scotty said:

They probably do understand that there's a chance that Diane could have biological family somewhere and wouldn't object to the idea of Diane meeting them some day,

Maybe they found her in a crashed rocket ship...would that be too far out for EGS?

More mundanely, there are illegal adoptions.

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18 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:
28 minutes ago, Scotty said:

They probably do understand that there's a chance that Diane could have biological family somewhere and wouldn't object to the idea of Diane meeting them some day,

Maybe they found her in a crashed rocket ship...would that be too far out for EGS?

Unless they also have TF gun, yes. Uryuoms look very differently from humans and we have no reason to assume any other extraterrestrial species would look more similar to humans.

... or do you mean that while Diane IS human (and Susan's at-least-half-sister), someone put her into spaceship (possibly Uryuom one) and let her crash?

18 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

More mundanely, there are illegal adoptions.

If Diane's adoption is illegal and someone looking as her will appear, what sounds like better strategy - try to deny everything or pretend it was legal adoption?

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8 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

... or do you mean that while Diane IS human (and Susan's at-least-half-sister), someone put her into spaceship (possibly Uryuom one) and let her crash?

It was a Superman joke, although a crosstime vehicle would serve. While technological transdimensional travel has not been introduced as yet, we already have one world jumper, Nioi.

Diane being a Susan alternate from a parallel universe is a viable option for EGS since parallel universes have been a feature from almost the beginning. Plus Elliot has seen Diane as being a mirror universe Susan twice: in Family Ties and then in Identity.

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19 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:
20 hours ago, hkmaly said:

... or do you mean that while Diane IS human (and Susan's at-least-half-sister), someone put her into spaceship (possibly Uryuom one) and let her crash?

It was a Superman joke

I considered that obvious.

19 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

although a crosstime vehicle would serve

Time travel is impossible in EGS.

19 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

While technological transdimensional travel has not been introduced as yet, we already have one world jumper, Nioi.

The goo core likely also travelled dimensions.

19 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

Diane being a Susan alternate from a parallel universe is a viable option for EGS since parallel universes have been a feature from almost the beginning. Plus Elliot has seen Diane as being a mirror universe Susan twice: in Family Ties and then in Identity.

Yes. But there would presumably be some reason WHY someone send child between dimensions without any oversight. It makes sense for space travel, because Superman apparently travelled for YEARS and they didn't had technology or resources to fit an adult and necessary supplies into spaceship (also, they at least gave him the recordings). But dimensional travel is likely immediate ...

 

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