Story 9/12/2015

[hkmaly 490]

12 hours ago, Aura Guardian said:

I'm sticking with Pandora as my top suspect for the comic shop for now, because it seems like it was more of Pandora's unveiling of magic.

Actually, making magic public by using someone who is not even aware he's using magic may not be optimal. Also, the idea that Pandora gave Dex the pendant and then Voltaire used it is too complicated.

12 hours ago, mlooney said:

Left field possibility.

What two immortals are always around Elliot and have a history of not really caring about the safety of teens?

Helena and Demetrius.

Granted they did save Elliot from Tara, which lowers the possibility that it's them, but they should still be in the betting pool.

First, they are currently incapacitated and likely unable to make so complicated plan work. Second, they empowered the teens as best as they should; it makes sense they wanted them to survive and only didn't cared about the emotional (and possibly not only emotional) scars.

11 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

For example, I wouldn't be surprised at this point to discover Voltaire had left the clue about the Dewitchery Diamond in a place where Grace could find it, knowing that would draw out Abraham who would then oppose Pandora's extended family and their associates.

No. Pandora herself said that this was HER plan. Although hard to say if the primary reason for that was to give Raven option to fight or something to do with Magus.

6 hours ago, EmpactWB said:

16 hours ago, WR...S said:

It was definitely Pandora behind Dex.

I used to think so too, but then I noticed Abner using the same phrase that Dex was muttering right before blasting at Noah, Dex's "now" questions seemed to count down to Elliot and Grace showing up, the bulldog dragon isolated Elliot, blasted into traffic on command causing Elliot to have to block instead of dodge, and then moved to finish Elliot until Melissa stepped in. Killing Dex might not have been the original plan, just an effort to cover up Voltaire's involvement when he couldn't finish Elliot. The pithos might have been a message to Pandora, perhaps signifying that this was the hope of the world rather than what she's attempting.

Note that Raven suspecting Pandora might be THE case of characters being wrong Dan was speaking about on twitter.

Some of us were already seeing holes in that even before this comics (see the "Pandora being framed" thread).

2 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

2 hours ago, Scotty said:

Now that Pandora has to fix everything, the warning is kinda moot. 

Pandora might have told Sarah that saving magic was more important than keeping her spell secret, and would have pointed out that if magic changed, Sarah would lose her magic anyway. Edward is still DGB, after all.

Unlikely. I'm sure she has some different plan to save magic without Edward being involved.

2 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

I am wondering why Sarah hasn't contacted her son to help fix the problem or at least to warn him. It could be just because she doesn't want to admit she made a mistake.

Or Adrian. And yes, she totally doesn't want to explain herself to her son.

1 hour ago, exterminator said:

So every public magic show we had seen has been Voltaire's doing trying to get Elliot killed. I don't know what his beef against Pandora is, but this obviously isn't about the "getting magic to not be secret" part.

Well he MIGHT be just totally incompetent at this. But I agree, it doesn't seem to be about magic being secret.

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

You know, I'm thinking Tedd's emotional state at the moment has more to do about the fact that Elliot's life is in danger rather than Edward finding out about his mark. There might be a little of that there, but Elliot's at the front of the line. I wonder if Tedd's thinking about making sure his gauntlet is ready.

His emotional state might have something to do with "if I keep my mark secret, it is possible I'm raising the danger Elliot is in?"

9 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

There are three layers of manipulators in the title page: Sirleck behind Pandora behind behind Magus behind Elliot and Ellen (with Diane and Elliot on the sides and maybe between Magus and Pandora). Voltaire isn't even in the picture at all, but we know he's manipulating Sirleck.

I suspect that the title page is NOT showing the TRUE order of manipulation, to not spoiler anything. Also, Voltaire is DEFINITELY manipulating Sirleck, but it seems unlikely Sirleck will be able to manipulate Pandora.

 

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

You mean Pandora I hope, Sarah's still a virgin after all.

So what, Elliot is also virgin and still mother of 18 year old female version of him

[Vorlonagent 442]

28 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Or Adrian. And yes, she totally doesn't want to explain herself to her son.

I think Pandora is still in "Mommy will fix everything" mode.  I don't think she's even considered asking her son for help.

[Scotty 1,061]

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

His emotional state might have something to do with "if I keep my mark secret, it is possible I'm raising the danger Elliot is in?"

That's probably stretching things. Considering how Tedd was feeling when Grace and Elliot returned from The Nest, this is actually technically the 5th time Elliot's life was in danger, the first time was the second goo fight and while technically that was Ellen that fought the goo, the goo's objective at that point was to kill Elliot. The second time was The Nest, things could have gone badly if he had managed to break the ropes and attempted to fight Damien. Third and fourth times were the fire golem at the comic shop and then the bulldog dragon, though the fire golem might have been just a test run. And then the fifth one being the incident at the mall, and only the mall incident was after Tedd was marked so I dunno how he'd blame the mark for putting Elliot in danger.

 

On the note of the first fire golem attack, while Pandora was the likely one that marked Dex, Voltaire would have provided the pendant, and to make sure it worked properly just had Dex summon 1 fire golem outside the comic shop, Voltaire likely didn't expect to kill Elliot with it and maybe didn't expect Justin to use his mark spell, or maybe he did and it didn't matter for the fact that it was just a test run, the next attack at the dojo with more fire golems and the bulldog dragon was the real attempt.

[hkmaly 490]

50 minutes ago, Scotty said:

and only the mall incident was after Tedd was marked so I dunno how he'd blame the mark for putting Elliot in danger.

It's not about putting him in danger. It's about pulling him out of it. Or possibly failing to, if, instead of using all resources they have, he will keep secret from Verres.

And note that it doesn't even need to make logical sense for him to feel that way.

52 minutes ago, Scotty said:

On the note of the first fire golem attack, while Pandora was the likely one that marked Dex, Voltaire would have provided the pendant,

Seems most likely now, yes.

53 minutes ago, Scotty said:

and to make sure it worked properly just had Dex summon 1 fire golem outside the comic shop, Voltaire likely didn't expect to kill Elliot with it and maybe didn't expect Justin to use his mark spell, or maybe he did and it didn't matter for the fact that it was just a test run, the next attack at the dojo with more fire golems and the bulldog dragon was the real attempt.

Remember that Elliot ALSO used his Cheerleadra spell first time there. Well, not counting when he casted it while sleeping, IF it was cheerleadra spell and not just normal girl transformation spell with same look.

Cheerleadra would likely be able to defeat the fire golem herself, but it WOULD be possible Voltaire tried attack Elliot hoping he'll fail to transform. Especially if he's not really as old as Pandora and is worse at predicting.

[Scotty 1,061]

2 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

It's not about putting him in danger. It's about pulling him out of it. Or possibly failing to, if, instead of using all resources they have, he will keep secret from Verres.

And note that it doesn't even need to make logical sense for him to feel that way.

I still fail to see how Tedd keeping his mark a secret would have any relevance to Elliot's safety, Grace is the one that found out about the marks in general and if she has already told Edward about her dreams and figuring out that an Immortal had been marking people without consent, leaving out the fact that Tedd was marked as well wouldn't make any difference, the main message would have been sent.

[hkmaly 490]

25 minutes ago, Scotty said:

32 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

It's not about putting him in danger. It's about pulling him out of it. Or possibly failing to, if, instead of using all resources they have, he will keep secret from Verres.

And note that it doesn't even need to make logical sense for him to feel that way.

I still fail to see how Tedd keeping his mark a secret would have any relevance to Elliot's safety, Grace is the one that found out about the marks in general and if she has already told Edward about her dreams and figuring out that an Immortal had been marking people without consent, leaving out the fact that Tedd was marked as well wouldn't make any difference, the main message would have been sent.

1) See "doesn't even need to make logical sense" bit.

2) He likely keeps secret his "dangerous rarity" as well, and that can be VERY important.

(See not tell dad anything ... and dangerous rarity may be somewhere between "very important" and "holy shit forget Elliot this is more important")

[Scotty 1,061]

Just now, hkmaly said:

1) See "doesn't even need to make logical sense" bit.

2) He likely keeps secret his "dangerous rarity" as well, and that can be VERY important.

The dangerous rarity stuff would be easier to believe than the mark. But still, as far as the marks go, Tedd already said Grace could tell Edward about the other marks and such, so I just don't see how he could think that holding back the part about his mark would matter. It would suggest that Tedd believes that someone has a gun against Elliot's head and threatening to kill him if Tedd doesn't tell Edward about his mark, and that Tedd's refusal to tell Edward puts his secret above Elliot's life. Heck, that would apply to the dangerous rarity stuff if Tedd was keeping it secret even if it meant Elliot being in danger.

If anything any connection between Elliot's safety and Tedd would be in someone needing to kill Elliot to either get him out of the way so they could then kill Tedd (which is what Goo 2.0 was trying to do) or trying to push Tedd into doing something insane, and ever since Goo 2.0, I don't think anyone is worried about Lord Tedd making another attempt on Elliot's or Tedd's life as Edward had been addressing that issue.

[Tom Sewell 268]

4 hours ago, ijuin said:

There is also the possibility that Pandora was the one who marked Dex, but it was Voltaire who gave him the pendant (and the telepathic commands). It would explain why there was a time lag in between getting the mark and getting the pendant.

Yes. I already suggested that if Pandora had made any mark on the pendant, it would be a box, not a pithos, because she went by "Box" for awhile. And I also suggested it was Voltaire outsmarting himself; not that many people know about Erasmus these days. Incidentally, Erasmus lived about five centuries ago; he knew Henry VIII. It's conceivable that Pandora knew Erasmus too.

[ijuin 572]

5 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Remember that Elliot ALSO used his Cheerleadra spell first time there. Well, not counting when he casted it while sleeping, IF it was cheerleadra spell and not just normal girl transformation spell with same look.

Cheerleadra would likely be able to defeat the fire golem herself, but it WOULD be possible Voltaire tried attack Elliot hoping he'll fail to transform. Especially if he's not really as old as Pandora and is worse at predicting.

If Voltaire was not watching Elliot at home that morning, he might not even have been aware that Elliot had gained the Cheerleadra spell, and instead was expecting Elliot to fight using the powers that Elliot was previously known to have (Cat-man transformation and Anime-Style Martial Arts).

[banneret 45]

While I don't believe the Disco Wizard is attempting to manipulate Pandora, I'm not convinced that he was directed by Magic itself. His discussion with Pandora in Grace's sleeping mind may be another play to expose, distract or weaken Pandora through driving her to violence, rather than Magic reaching out to cut the Gordian knot, and so normalize without a system change.

[Scotty 1,061]

27 minutes ago, banneret said:

While I don't believe the Disco Wizard is attempting to manipulate Pandora, I'm not convinced that he was directed by Magic itself. His discussion with Pandora in Grace's sleeping mind may be another play to expose, distract or weaken Pandora through driving her to violence, rather than Magic reaching out to cut the Gordian knot, and so normalize without a system change.

Dan has been building up the idea that Magic has some sort of will for a while now, at least as far back as Hammerclorians when Jerry mentioned the "flair for the dramatic" which would also suggest that Jerry at least remembers.

Could Jerry be acting as the will of Magic here(not to be confused with actually being the will of Magic)? Would his current incarnation be capable of doing that? Jerry knows Grace as being one of Susan's friends but this seems like something that goes beyond his vow to help Susan and her friends and family. It's possible he's been paying attention to the things going on in Moperville as he's been checking on Susan and decided to take matters into his own hands. But again he's still pretty fresh from resetting so would he even be capable of giving Disco Wizard that kind of spell required to contact Grace? The spell also seems too convoluted a way to get results which Jerry likely wouldn't want to do, also the fact that he's met Grace before, it'd make more sense for him to contact her directly to warn her about what's going on.

[Vorlonagent 442]

Can immortals even grant spells to Awakened mages?

[hkmaly 490]

20 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

Incidentally, Erasmus lived about five centuries ago; he knew Henry VIII. It's conceivable that Pandora knew Erasmus too.

... I would assume she would consider him boooring. It's unlikely Pandora knows all people who were alive in same time as her.

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

2 hours ago, banneret said:

While I don't believe the Disco Wizard is attempting to manipulate Pandora, I'm not convinced that he was directed by Magic itself. His discussion with Pandora in Grace's sleeping mind may be another play to expose, distract or weaken Pandora through driving her to violence, rather than Magic reaching out to cut the Gordian knot, and so normalize without a system change.

Dan has been building up the idea that Magic has some sort of will for a while now, at least as far back as Hammerclorians when Jerry mentioned the "flair for the dramatic" which would also suggest that Jerry at least remembers.

Could Jerry be acting as the will of Magic here(not to be confused with actually being the will of Magic)?

I don't think it's Jerry, but yes, I think Disco Wizard is manipulated by some immortal and that it's some "new" immortal - not any of those we already know.

[Scotty 1,061]

4 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

Can immortals even grant spells to Awakened mages?

If it's an actual wizard that learns other people's spells, I don't see why not. It might be simple for an Immortal to just transfer knowledge of a spell to a wizard. I'd imagine it'd be like the greybeards transferring knowledge of a thu'um to your character in Skyrim, though maybe not as fancy looking.

Though again, this might not be something Jerry is able to do after recently resetting.

[hkmaly 490]

9 minutes ago, Scotty said:

19 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

Can immortals even grant spells to Awakened mages?

If it's an actual wizard that learns other people's spells, I don't see why not. It might be simple for an Immortal to just transfer knowledge of a spell to a wizard.

Well, it would definitely fall under "empower and guide". Considering how complicated that spell is, it may even be simpler than trying to mark someone who is not awakened yet with it. Alternatively, maybe that spell is part of some artifact similar to Dex's pendant.

[comicalArchitect 1]

The mentions of the second goo attack have me thinking: what connections, if any, could be drawn between Lord Tedd and the current Voltaire-Pandora plotline? Dan DID say that the clog stuff was pulling on more plot threads than we realized, and my first thought after reading that was LT. Perhaps—and this is total speculation—Voltaire wants to stop Pandora because a magic system change would render this universe more susceptible to conquering. Of course, this doesn't explain why he wants to kill Elliot, unless Elliot or Magus has some as-yet unknown role in Pandora's plots (though that role would be irrelevant now, seeing as Pandora just did a 180).

[hkmaly 490]

26 minutes ago, comicalArchitect said:

Dan DID say that the clog stuff was pulling on more plot threads than we realized, and my first thought after reading that was LT.

It's possible the clog stuff pulls more threads than VOLTAIRE realizes.

27 minutes ago, comicalArchitect said:

Perhaps—and this is total speculation—Voltaire wants to stop Pandora because a magic system change would render this universe more susceptible to conquering.

Try this: Voltaire is MANIPULATED to kill Elliot because Elliot is the main reason Tedd is not becoming Lord Tedd - because he's his voice of reason.

[Scotty 1,061]

52 minutes ago, comicalArchitect said:

The mentions of the second goo attack have me thinking: what connections, if any, could be drawn between Lord Tedd and the current Voltaire-Pandora plotline? Dan DID say that the clog stuff was pulling on more plot threads than we realized, and my first thought after reading that was LT. Perhaps—and this is total speculation—Voltaire wants to stop Pandora because a magic system change would render this universe more susceptible to conquering. Of course, this doesn't explain why he wants to kill Elliot, unless Elliot or Magus has some as-yet unknown role in Pandora's plots (though that role would be irrelevant now, seeing as Pandora just did a 180).

We've yet to see Magus, but considering Sirleck's making a move, Magus should be making an appearance sometime in this storyline. As for Lord Tedd...I don't want to rule it out completely, but Dan has stated uncertainty about whether he should have even introduced the Lord Tedd plotthread or not, but admits that a lot of stuff in the overarching story wouldn't have been possible without it. It's certainly possible Dan's been trying to figure out a way to get back to that thread, that peak into Lord Tedd's world and Nioi might have been alterations to the original plan similar to how Ellen was supposed to be a villain. Though it's also possible that Edward saying the Lord Tedd issue was being addressed might have been a clue that the thread was cut entirely, which would be a shame considering Ellen expects to see Kaoli in the future.

21 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Try this: Voltaire is MANIPULATED to kill Elliot because Elliot is the main reason Tedd is not becoming Lord Tedd - because he's his voice of reason.

Well, there is a theory that the reason Lord Tedd is what he is, was because Elliot was killed in that universe, it would have left Lord Tedd open to manipulation by General Shade Tail who might have even engineered Elliot's death in order to take his place as Lord Tedd's guardian.

[Tom Sewell 268]

Way, way back in Painted Black, Nioi, who basically is Lord Tedd's Grace, thought General Shade Tail was corrupting LT. That would make Lord Tedd himself another catspaw. But manipulating an Immortal?

However, while I don't see Lord Tedd or GST being the ultimate boss of this storyline, I do have what might be an original explanation of how Lord Tedd could be a good guy and still want to kill off all the other Tedds. Remember that the whale said Tedd was a far more dangerous rarity than a wizard? Maybe Lord Tedd devastated his own world and wants to prevent all the other Tedds from doing the same. We've only seen a few interior scenes of Lord Tedd's world; all of them could have been in an underground shelter for all we know. Maybe we should check around for vault boys...