np NP, Wednesday September 14, 2016

[Scotty 1,061]

http://www.egscomics.com/egsnp.php?id=512

So if Rhoda used her spell in rapid succession, she could technically make a person and their clothing shrink or grow, but it could be tricky getting them to do so equally.

[Vorlonagent 442]

12 minutes ago, Scotty said:

http://www.egscomics.com/egsnp.php?id=512

So if Rhoda used her spell in rapid succession, she could technically make a person and their clothing shrink or grow, but it could be tricky getting them to do so equally.

She'd have to hold some kind of constant factor in her mind:

"Grow 200%" across the board or something like that. 

But how fast can she spam her spell?

[Scotty 1,061]

Just now, Vorlonagent said:

She'd have to hold some kind of constant factor in her mind:

"Grow 200%" across the board or something like that. 

But how fast can she spam her spell?

Catalina: "Ready to find out if you are Rhoda."

Rhoda: "Ok. First you, then your shirt, your pants, lift up your shirt so I can get your bra"

Catalina: "Not wearing one."

Rhoda: "Okay...then let me...."

Catalina: "Not wearing underwear either."

Rhoda: "You were hoping I'd do this weren't you?"

Catalina: "Mmmmmaybe?"

[AFNB 39]

Quote

My rules for shrinking / growing makes it safer than it has any right to be

Ah, but Dan - Are those your rules, or are they magic's rules? 

[hkmaly 490]

3 hours ago, Scotty said:

http://www.egscomics.com/egsnp.php?id=512

So if Rhoda used her spell in rapid succession, she could technically make a person and their clothing shrink or grow, but it could be tricky getting them to do so equally.

I think the idea is that the thing is only growing (or shrinking) WHILE she is focusing on it.

2 hours ago, Scotty said:

Catalina: "Ready to find out if you are Rhoda."

Rhoda: "Ok. First you, then your shirt, your pants, lift up your shirt so I can get your bra"

Catalina: "Not wearing one."

Rhoda: "Okay...then let me...."

Catalina: "Not wearing underwear either."

Rhoda: "You were hoping I'd do this weren't you?"

Catalina: "Mmmmmaybe?"

Hey, it makes sense to try with only three targets instead of five ...

19 minutes ago, AFNB said:

Quote

My rules for shrinking / growing makes it safer than it has any right to be

Ah, but Dan - Are those your rules, or are they magic's rules? 

The answer to this will be firm "yes".

 

[Scotty 1,061]

2 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

I think the idea is that the thing is only growing (or shrinking) WHILE she is focusing on it.

That's what Rhoda thinks, but Dan's commentary suggests that with practice she could do more and do it in rapid succession, and maybe once she awakened (that's assuming she's able to after Magic is saved) she'd get an upgraded spell that lets her affect people and what they're wearing.

[Aura Guardian 57]

14 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

I think the idea is that the thing is only growing (or shrinking) WHILE she is focusing on it.

Hey, it makes sense to try with only three targets instead of five ...

The answer to this will be firm "yes".

Okay, we need to ask WHICH one it is, then. Thanks for the reminder!

[hkmaly 490]

33 minutes ago, Scotty said:

43 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

I think the idea is that the thing is only growing (or shrinking) WHILE she is focusing on it.

That's what Rhoda thinks, but Dan's commentary suggests that with practice she could do more and do it in rapid succession, and maybe once she awakened (that's assuming she's able to after Magic is saved) she'd get an upgraded spell that lets her affect people and what they're wearing.

I think he was talking about the possibility of growing herself with the cookie and growing the clothes "manually" at the same time.

That said, she will DEFINITELY get better with it with training, either by being better at utilizing this spell or by getting another spell. I was describing her current level of practise.

[mlooney 3,417]

3 hours ago, Scotty said:

Catalina: "Ready to find out if you are Rhoda."

Rhoda: "Ok. First you, then your shirt, your pants, lift up your shirt so I can get your bra"

Catalina: "Not wearing one."

Rhoda: "Okay...then let me...."

Catalina: "Not wearing underwear either."

Rhoda: "You were hoping I'd do this weren't you?"

Catalina: "Mmmmmaybe?"

Pin up option to go with the tea and cookies.

[Drasvin 123]

Hmm...cybernetic implants might be more complicated, depending how the implant is constructed. Like if a cybernetic arm is a single cohesive unit, then it would likely all shrink or grow together, but what if the actual implanted part is just a connection hub that the arm can be plugged into?

2 hours ago, AFNB said:

Quote

My rules for shrinking / growing makes it safer than it has any right to be

Ah, but Dan - Are those your rules, or are they magic's rules? 

Dan is the writer. His rules supersede the rules of magic.

[EmpactWB 21]

41 minutes ago, Drasvin said:

Dan is the writer. His rules supersede the rules of magic.

To an extent.

[hkmaly 490]

43 minutes ago, EmpactWB said:

1 hour ago, Drasvin said:

Dan is the writer. His rules supersede the rules of magic.

To an extent.

Yes. As a writer, Dan can do anything he want with his story - but not free of consequences. There are rules which he CAN break, but would alienate lot of readers by it. Sandersons first law would be relatively weak one - the most important rules deal with internal consistency. And considering magic in EGS is pretty "hard" based on Sanderson's definition, there is already lot of stuff Dan needs to be careful with. Double so considering some of those were established years ago, by considerably younger Dan.

1 hour ago, Drasvin said:

Hmm...cybernetic implants might be more complicated, depending how the implant is constructed. Like if a cybernetic arm is a single cohesive unit, then it would likely all shrink or grow together, but what if the actual implanted part is just a connection hub that the arm can be plugged into?

I suspect it will be on case-by-case basis actually. No cybernetic arm is as much cohesive unit as normal arm, it can be taken apart with some tools, but I would still agree that if you need half hour with screwdriver and wrench to disconnect it - and if you rarely actually do it - it counts as part of body. On the other hand, I wouldn't expect you can grow whole mecha just because you are connected to it with cables in your spine.

Unfortunately, we are unlikely to see mechas or advanced cybernetics in EGS anytime soon, so we may never know ...

[Scotty 1,061]

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Yes. As a writer, Dan can do anything he want with his story - but not free of consequences. There are rules which he CAN break, but would alienate lot of readers by it. Sandersons first law would be relatively weak one - the most important rules deal with internal consistency. And considering magic in EGS is pretty "hard" based on Sanderson's definition, there is already lot of stuff Dan needs to be careful with. Double so considering some of those were established years ago, by considerably younger Dan.

I actually think EGS is more middle ground with maybe a bit of a lean towards hard magic. Dan has developed magic in the EGS world to have no known limits to what someone can do with it, except of course time travel. This may seem like Soft Magic at first, expecially when you get the whole Will of Magic involved, but Will of Magic would also imply Hard Magic in that the Will has set up rules for how the system works, how people can learn and use it, the whole spells that fit the personality bit, and the fact that it all can change at any moment. There's also the fact the the way it's structured is much like science considering Tedd's role in the comic, as Nanase said, the laws of physics are more like polite suggestions, there may be flexibility to most spells but I've argued with people in these forums over how flexible and there have been many occasions where some spell theories just seem too overpowered to me, Soft Magic would be like  "Sure that can happen." while Hard Magic would say "Only someone who's spent years using that spell might be able to do it." the middle ground would be "If the Will of Magic happens to favour it.

The whole Will of Magic could be seen as giving a false sense of Soft Magic as well with the fact that if doesn't want to be mainstream, keeping the number of people who can use magic limited maintains that sense of fantasy to those that get a brief glimpse of it, while those in the know treat it like a science.

 

[partner555 170]

3 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Yes. As a writer, Dan can do anything he want with his story - but not free of consequences. There are rules which he CAN break, but would alienate lot of readers by it. Sandersons first law would be relatively weak one - the most important rules deal with internal consistency. And considering magic in EGS is pretty "hard" based on Sanderson's definition, there is already lot of stuff Dan needs to be careful with. Double so considering some of those were established years ago, by considerably younger Dan.

 

That doesn't mean Dan can't make use of old plot points in creative ways. Remember how Diane revealed she knew Nanase had magic?

[ijuin 572]

On Soft Magic, Hard Magic, and the Will of Magic, it seems in EGS that the main limiting factor (aside from the availability of an appropriate spell) is one of energy--it apparently costs more energy to make more changes. Minor cosmetic things such as Nanase's hair change (or most self-transformations that leave the transformee still a baseline human) are low in energy cost, while stuff that actually grants high power (e.g. Nanase's Guardian spell) consume a huge amount of power. Sarah's spell apparently consumes so much power not because of the "impossibility" of it (since the scenes play out in her brain, it's just an illusion), but rather in the "information gathering" part of it (the energy is expended due to the spell having to collect an accurate "snapshot" of the surrounding space--at minimum a house-sized space, but Pandora implied that she may be able to simulate much larger spaces with practice).

[CritterKeeper 1,102]

Magic itself seems to be very accomodating, rather eager-to-please.  Nanase is keeping secrets, so Magic gives her sneaky type spells.  Elliot isn't happy with having to turn into a girl, so Magic keeps making the girl-forms cooler and cooler, all the way up to genuine superpowers, trying to make him happy.  Susan was the "Hammer Queen" so when the general women-hammering-sexists spell disappears, the first spell she gets is to give her back the hammers; when she winds up using her fairydoll spell much more often, Magic expands on it for her.

It's possible that Magic interacts with individuals in a more simplistic or automatic way, a sort of autopilot that may even sometimes be contrary to the interests of the overall, more intellectual Will Of Magic.  A superheroine isn't exactly discreet, nor is a swarm of fairydolls.

Edited September 15, 2016 by CritterKeeper
typo fix

[ijuin 572]

Magic likes drama, so IMO it is trying to create a steady supply of heroes and villains. Magic wants epic duels between individuals or small groups, not bloody battles between massive armies.

[Scotty 1,061]

36 minutes ago, ijuin said:

Magic likes drama, so IMO it is trying to create a steady supply of heroes and villains. Magic wants epic duels between individuals or small groups, not bloody battles between massive armies.

I wonder if the threat of a system change is just another way of creating drama. Magics like "Too many people are learning about me, hey Disco Wizard, go warn a girl named Grace that I'm thinking of changing the system soon" and is now sitting back with a bowl of popcorn.

[hkmaly 490]

18 hours ago, Scotty said:

I actually think EGS is more middle ground with maybe a bit of a lean towards hard magic. Dan has developed magic in the EGS world to have no known limits to what someone can do with it, except of course time travel. This may seem like Soft Magic at first, expecially when you get the whole Will of Magic involved, but Will of Magic would also imply Hard Magic in that the Will has set up rules for how the system works, how people can learn and use it, the whole spells that fit the personality bit, and the fact that it all can change at any moment. There's also the fact the the way it's structured is much like science considering Tedd's role in the comic, as Nanase said, the laws of physics are more like polite suggestions, there may be flexibility to most spells but I've argued with people in these forums over how flexible and there have been many occasions where some spell theories just seem too overpowered to me, Soft Magic would be like  "Sure that can happen." while Hard Magic would say "Only someone who's spent years using that spell might be able to do it." the middle ground would be "If the Will of Magic happens to favour it.

While there are little limits to "what's possible" in general, the kind of magic any specific individual has is pretty hard. If you read the article, you realize that if "party" (main characters) has hard magic, it doesn't matter if people around have soft magic. It's not completely hard magic, but "pretty hard" ... maybe 75%?

And Will of magic seems to work more like laws than person. The "flair for drama", while sounding very arbitrary and sort of preferring surprising results, is actually very consistent and predictable, at least in hindsight.

In fact, we can say that the more will of magic starts acting as person, the closer to deus-ex-machina it will be.

16 hours ago, partner555 said:

That doesn't mean Dan can't make use of old plot points in creative ways. Remember how Diane revealed she knew Nanase had magic?

Yes. In fact, he MUST use old plot points in creative ways. We MIGHT miss this instance - or there might be full twitter of people which would complain "hey, how could Diane overlook Nanase's magic when she used to freely float through school" ...

3 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

It's possible that Magic interacts with individuals in a more simplistic or automatic way, a sort of autopilot that may even sometimes be contrary to the interests of the overall, more intellectual Will Of Magic.  A superheroine isn't exactly discreet, nor is a swarm of fairydolls.

You might be overpersonifying Will of magic. It's not supposed to be person. It has a will and objectives of it's own but "mind" might not be applicable. It's mostly still laws and the interaction with individual is more like how physical laws works than how something with single objective would work.

2 hours ago, ijuin said:

Magic likes drama, so IMO it is trying to create a steady supply of heroes and villains. Magic wants epic duels between individuals or small groups, not bloody battles between massive armies.

Battles between armies might be acceptable. What is NOT acceptable is battle between army of magic users and army of mundane people. Although with current weapon technology even that should be dramatic enough ...

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

I wonder if the threat of a system change is just another way of creating drama. Magics like "Too many people are learning about me, hey Disco Wizard, go warn a girl named Grace that I'm thinking of changing the system soon" and is now sitting back with a bowl of popcorn.

Overpersonification. Half-heartedly fullilling some ... prophecy? Rule?

Also, I totally think it wasn't Will of magic who told Disco Wizard that. It was some immortal and yes, they are now sitting back with a bowl of popcorn.

I wouldn't be completely sure we are really that close to the reset. On the other hand, maybe we are close to point of no return, because when multiple research teams starts investigating magic, it can quickly become unstoppable.

 

 

[CritterKeeper 1,102]

3 hours ago, hkmaly said:

You might be overpersonifying Will of magic. It's not supposed to be person. It has a will and objectives of it's own but "mind" might not be applicable. It's mostly still laws and the interaction with individual is more like how physical laws works than how something with single objective would work.

But that's exactly what I was saying -- the interactions with individuals tend to follow the rules, and sometimes the things that happen at those individual interactions seem to be quite counter to the goal of keeping the existence of magic a secret to most.  It's like there's a central Will of Magic that has those goals, but the way that Magic in general interacts with individuals is almost completely separate from the Will, and they can sometimes be working at cross-purposes.

Hmm, picture a big web shop like ThinkGeek.  There are a few people running things, but most of what happens on the customer side is automatic, whether it's done by the computers they order through or the people packing and shipping the goods.  People will order stuff that suits them, and algorithms may suggest that if you bought a TARDIS Towel then you might also like a River Song's Sonic Screwdriver.  If the people in charge don't like the way things are going, there are only so many things they can do to change how their customers behave or what they buy.  If all else fails, they can take down the site and redesign it.

[Scotty 1,061]

Back on the subject of the rules for magic shrinking and growing people, consider what might happen if a spell didn't take stuff added through surgeries as part of the body, like metal pins for holding stuff together, or knee/hip replacements, breast augmentations, pace makers. That would be messy.

Now Rhoda doesn't know this, but it is canon that growing in size won't hurt a person if they happen to grow too big for cloths or the room their in, etc, though it would destroy the clothes and surround room and stuff, if the spell didn't affect jewelry, most jewelry would either fall off (stud earrings would likely pop out), or break which in itself would suck because that could get expensive fast.

[Stature 96]

Rule of thumb would apply to Liz, then.

Now my only guess for hi-jinks is that Rhoda would accidentally change the size of either a inanimate object that would send them running, or herself as a race against time.

Or Catalina would be overjoyed by seeing something/one in front of her, who knows what cats would do at this day and age.

[mlooney 3,417]

2 hours ago, Scotty said:

Now Rhoda doesn't know this, but it is canon that growing in size won't hurt a person if they happen to grow too big for cloths or the room their in, etc, though it would destroy the clothes and surround room and stuff, if the spell didn't affect jewelry, most jewelry would either fall off (stud earrings would likely pop out), or break which in itself would suck because that could get expensive fast.

Actually it's canon that Tedd's TF guns and things made from it's tech have a limiter.  Notheing says that non TF gun magic can't do that.

[AFNB 39]

On 9/15/2016 at 8:15 PM, Drasvin said:

Dan is the writer. His rules supersede the rules of magic.

What I basically meant was that, as Magic has been shown to be at least partially sapient, the safety feature might have been put in by Magic.

[mlooney 3,417]

2 hours ago, AFNB said:

What I basically meant was that, as Magic has been shown to be at least partially sapient, the safety feature might have been put in by Magic.

Depending on who you ask, sapient is like pregnant, either you are or you are not.  Not really much of a middle ground.

Which raised some ethical questions about Homo sapiens treatment of whales, the great apes (other than h. sapiens), crows (well, all of Corvus, not just crows),Elephants (both Loxodonta africana and Elephas maximus) and octopuses. To some Canis familiaris and Felis catus might be added to that list. I'm not a PETA member, and in fact hate them, but I try real hard to be members nice to that list.