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      Welcome!   03/05/2016

      Welcome, everyone, to the new 910CMX Community Forums. I'm still working on getting them running, so things may change.  If you're a 910 Comic creator and need your forum recreated, let me know and I'll get on it right away.  I'll do my best to make this new place as fun as the last one!
Scotty

NP, Wednesday September 14, 2016

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2 hours ago, mlooney said:

Actually it's canon that Tedd's TF guns and things made from it's tech have a limiter.  Notheing says that non TF gun magic can't do that.

Most size changes have a protection limited, canonically.

5 minutes ago, mlooney said:

Depending on who you ask, sapient is like pregnant, either you are or you are not.  Not really much of a middle ground.
Which raised some ethical questions about Homo sapiens treatment of whales, the great apes (other than h. sapiens), crows (well, all of Corvus, not just crows),Elephants (both Loxodonta africana and Elephas maximus) and octopuses. To some Canis familiaris and Felis catus might be added to that list. I'm not a PETA member, and in fact hate them, but I try real hard to be members nice to that list.

I'm really hoping that I'll be able to eventually take a language course in Dolphin. Click-click-whistle-click 101 would be the best.

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50 minutes ago, EmpactWB said:

Most size changes have a protection limited, canonically.

I'm really hoping that I'll be able to eventually take a language course in Dolphin. Click-click-whistle-click 101 would be the best.

You won't need to learn the language.  You'll have Google Dolphin...

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19 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:
23 hours ago, hkmaly said:

You might be overpersonifying Will of magic. It's not supposed to be person. It has a will and objectives of it's own but "mind" might not be applicable. It's mostly still laws and the interaction with individual is more like how physical laws works than how something with single objective would work.

But that's exactly what I was saying -- the interactions with individuals tend to follow the rules, and sometimes the things that happen at those individual interactions seem to be quite counter to the goal of keeping the existence of magic a secret to most.  It's like there's a central Will of Magic that has those goals, but the way that Magic in general interacts with individuals is almost completely separate from the Will, and they can sometimes be working at cross-purposes.

Yes, it was what you were saying, it just looked like you are surprised by it, so I replied that yes, that's how it works and there's nothing weird about it.

5 hours ago, mlooney said:
7 hours ago, AFNB said:

What I basically meant was that, as Magic has been shown to be at least partially sapient, the safety feature might have been put in by Magic.

Depending on who you ask, sapient is like pregnant, either you are or you are not.  Not really much of a middle ground.

Depending on who you ask, you may be "partially pregnant" for a limited time.

5 hours ago, mlooney said:

Which raised some ethical questions about Homo sapiens treatment of whales, the great apes (other than h. sapiens), crows (well, all of Corvus, not just crows),Elephants (both Loxodonta africana and Elephas maximus) and octopuses.

Octopuses and crows? On the other hand, why you skip dolphins?

5 hours ago, mlooney said:

To some Canis familiaris and Felis catus might be added to that list.

That has nothing to do with sapience. They are just the species most adapted on the survival strategy of looking cute to humans.

5 hours ago, mlooney said:

but I try real hard to be members nice to that list.

I rarely meet any whale or great ape. But I'm very concerned that we may make whales extinct before we will have real understanding what sapience is.

5 hours ago, EmpactWB said:

I'm really hoping that I'll be able to eventually take a language course in Dolphin. Click-click-whistle-click 101 would be the best.

You are likely physically unable to either hear or speak most of the language. Too much higher frequencies.

4 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

I have serious ethical questions about Homo sapiens treatment of h. sapiens.

There are definitely Homo sapiens which would deserve to be treated nonethically for how they treated other Homo sapiens.

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6 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

You are likely physically unable to either hear or speak most of the language. Too much higher frequencies.

Just whistle-click-click all over my hopes and dreams, why dontcha? ;)

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7 hours ago, AFNB said:

What I basically meant was that, as Magic has been shown to be at least partially sapient, the safety feature might have been put in by Magic.

Magic has a flair for the dramatic. Expanding out of clothes or shrinking out of them is more dramatic. Also more fun. If magic builds in safeties, it just means you wouldn't get hurt. As for modesty, we already know about speedbirds.

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38 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Octopuses and crows? On the other hand, why you skip dolphins?

Dolphins are whales.  And ocopuses and crows are both tool makers, not tool users, but tool makers.  

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23 minutes ago, mlooney said:
1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Octopuses and crows? On the other hand, why you skip dolphins?

Dolphins are whales.

This is something like "birds are dinosaurs", right?

24 minutes ago, mlooney said:

And ocopuses and crows are both tool makers, not tool users, but tool makers.  

So what. Ants also use tools. We can't be sure sentience is necessary for tool making.

Hmmmm ... (... reading ...) ... ok, maybe those bird brains MIGHT be good for something ... I still think saving whales is more important. And dolphins, but dolphins don't need saving that much.

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On 9/15/2016 at 5:32 PM, hkmaly said:

You might be overpersonifying Will of magic. It's not supposed to be person. It has a will and objectives of it's own but "mind" might not be applicable. It's mostly still laws and the interaction with individual is more like how physical laws works than how something with single objective would work.

I would posit that Magic does have a mind of some semblance. Objectives gives it something to work towards and a will gives it the drive to work towards those objectives, but without a mind of some sort, it would lack reasoning and logic and and therefor lack the ability to determine if a given course of action would be beneficial to its objectives. Magic has been consistent in working towards it's objectives, from what we've seen. That would imply it has some sort of mentality to direct its efforts.That said, the mentality of magic could very well be something so strange and alien, that the average human would have trouble recognizing it as such, a la the Old Gods of Lovecraft's stories.

 

On 9/15/2016 at 5:32 PM, hkmaly said:
On 9/15/2016 at 2:50 PM, ijuin said:

Magic likes drama, so IMO it is trying to create a steady supply of heroes and villains. Magic wants epic duels between individuals or small groups, not bloody battles between massive armies.

Battles between armies might be acceptable. What is NOT acceptable is battle between army of magic users and army of mundane people. Although with current weapon technology even that should be dramatic enough ...

I think it's less what the armies are composed of, than how likely the battle will end up in the history books, outside of myth and legend.

 

On 9/15/2016 at 5:32 PM, hkmaly said:

Also, I totally think it wasn't Will of magic who told Disco Wizard that. It was some immortal and yes, they are now sitting back with a bowl of popcorn.

Why do you think that?

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3 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Yes, it was what you were saying, it just looked like you are surprised by it, so I replied that yes, that's how it works and there's nothing weird about it.

Your phrasing and mine still don't seem to match up, but I'll take your word for it you mean the same thing I do, unless I see something that tells me otherwise. :-)

3 hours ago, hkmaly said:

You are likely physically unable to either hear or speak most of the language. Too much higher frequencies.

They, on the other hand, are likely to be able to speak some sort of version of our languages.  They've already been shown to understand the idea of grammar and syntax.  Perhaps some sort of pidgin language, restricted to frequencies both species can hear and reproduce, using human grammar but with words that are mostly clicks and whistles the dolphins naturally produce?

 

2 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

Magic has a flair for the dramatic. Expanding out of clothes or shrinking out of them is more dramatic. Also more fun. If magic builds in safeties, it just means you wouldn't get hurt. As for modesty, we already know about speedbirds.

And don't forget the Prude Puffins!

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1 hour ago, Drasvin said:

it would lack reasoning and logic and and therefor lack the ability to determine if a given course of action would be beneficial to its objectives.

Water doesn't need mind to flow down.

1 hour ago, Drasvin said:

That said, the mentality of magic could very well be something so strange and alien, that the average human would have trouble recognizing it as such, a la the Old Gods of Lovecraft's stories.

... or that.

1 hour ago, Drasvin said:

I think it's less what the armies are composed of, than how likely the battle will end up in the history books, outside of myth and legend.

The line between history and myths is moving.

1 hour ago, Drasvin said:
On 09/15/2016 at 0:32 AM, hkmaly said:

Also, I totally think it wasn't Will of magic who told Disco Wizard that. It was some immortal and yes, they are now sitting back with a bowl of popcorn.

Why do you think that?

Because I think the mind of the person putting Disco Wizard into this is TOO NORMAL to be the Will of magic's one.

30 minutes ago, CritterKeeper said:

Your phrasing and mine still don't seem to match up, but I'll take your word for it you mean the same thing I do, unless I see something that tells me otherwise. :-)

Ok. There likely were some differences. But not important ones. The intent was to confirm what you was saying, although retold little differently to make clearer how it make sense, not disagree with it.

30 minutes ago, CritterKeeper said:
Quote

You are likely physically unable to either hear or speak most of the language. Too much higher frequencies.

They, on the other hand, are likely to be able to speak some sort of version of our languages.

I wouldn't count on it. But they are likely able to hear and understand our language.

30 minutes ago, CritterKeeper said:

Perhaps some sort of pidgin language, restricted to frequencies both species can hear and reproduce, using human grammar but with words that are mostly clicks and whistles the dolphins naturally produce?

I think this would be case where it will be actually simpler if both species used different language. It's not without precedents - there are pairs of people who can communicate better if each will speak their language, just because their passive knowledge of language is bigger than active.

To communicate with dolphins, humans would likely use some version of normal language with simplified grammar, so it would be simpler for dolphins to learn it, and dolphins would use some version of their language limited to low-frequency sounds, so it would be possible for people to understand it without technology.

Dolphins speaking the human language, even with simplified grammar, and humans speaking with the simplified dolphin language, would be technically possible but hard and would likely result in both talking slower.

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Actually, I've long wondered if dolphin and whale communication might not include sending versions of sonar images, so that they're talking in pictures.  If that's the case, then there really would be a huge gap between us as far as ability to communicate goes.  They might be able to exchange some ideas with us, but they'd always think of it as a poor excuse for a language, no matter how complex it became.

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6 hours ago, hkmaly said:

So what. Ants also use tools. We can't be sure sentience is necessary for tool making.

Ant's use tools that they find.  Humans, some great apes, crows and octopuses make tools out of something.

Once you reach the level of making tools to make tools, which right now is limited to humans and Corvids you are now using technology.

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8 hours ago, mlooney said:

Dolphins are whales.  And ocopuses and crows are both tool makers, not tool users, but tool makers.  

So far as we know, humans are the only recursive toolmakers. That is, we make tools that we use to make tools that we use to make tools that... you get the idea.

There is now a known tool-making spider. Instead of spinning a web, it spins a throwing-net (and then throws it to catch prey).

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5 hours ago, hkmaly said:
6 hours ago, Drasvin said:

it would lack reasoning and logic and and therefor lack the ability to determine if a given course of action would be beneficial to its objectives.

Water doesn't need mind to flow down.

Water also doesn't have to decide on subjective states, like 'what makes a situation suitably dramatic'

 

5 hours ago, hkmaly said:
6 hours ago, Drasvin said:
On 9/15/2016 at 5:32 PM, hkmaly said:

Also, I totally think it wasn't Will of magic who told Disco Wizard that. It was some immortal and yes, they are now sitting back with a bowl of popcorn.

Why do you think that?

Because I think the mind of the person putting Disco Wizard into this is TOO NORMAL to be the Will of magic's one.

Just because a mentality is alien and strange, doesn't mean it can't come to the same conclusion as a mentality that is less alien and strange. Let's examine the logic path here: the Benefactor notices a problem that is going to require a system change if the problem is not solved, and a system change is for some reason undesirable to the Benefactor;
The problem is being caused by an immortal that has not reset in a long time but has deep emotional ties to her family;
The Benefactor grants the Emissary a highly specialized spell that can only contact one person that the Emissary has never met, in her dreams. The spell will allow the Emissary to know all the necessary details and details of previous meetings, ONLY will the spell is active and the Emissary is in Grace's dream. Outside of this context, he has no knowledge of who Grace is or what he is trying to convey with this spell, by inherent design of the spell. He only knows that his work with the spell is not yet finished.;
Grace is expected to remember enough of the dream communications when she's awake, of which she only has about a 10% chance of doing, in order to realize information about the magical marks, so she can talk about it with her friends, allowing Pandora to overhear Grace, realize that someone is feeding Grace information in her dreams, and decide to investigate;
Then the Emissary needs to talk with Pandora and reveal to her the dangers of the impending system change, without prior knowledge that Pandora is the immortal that is causing the risk in the first place (and apparently without a couple fundamental facts about immortals) and inadvertently convince Pandora to completely reverse her plans.;
If this logic sequence if too normal for the Will of Magic, then how would you write the Will of Magic's plan?

Also, there has been no indication that an Immortal can control the variables of the spells they grant mortals finely enough for that plan to work. Anytime we've seen an immortal consider granting a spell, they don't get to decide what kind of spell to grant a person. At best, we've seen Pandora (who can explicitly push the boundaries of the rules for granting marks past what most immortals are capable of) have a list of spells that she can choose from to grant. The spells that an immortal can grant are those related to inherent talents, strong desires, and fundamental natures (And name-based affinities) The Emissary's spell is too narrow and specific to be an inherent talent. He doesn't know Grace in the waking world, so a strong desire to contact her in her sleep wouldn't make sense (I could see a strong desire to fix the impending problem, but then why Grace and only Grace?). And the spell is too specific for a fundamental nature, especially since he doesn't know Grace while awake. (And a name-based affinity would just be ridiculous)

Furthermore, there has been no indication that an immortal can grant spells to someone who has already awakened. Magic marks, the only explicitly mentioned method that immortals have for granting mortals spells, vanish once the person awakens. Given that magic marks are specifically associated with the dreaming state, I doubt a person can receive a magic mark once they've awakened.

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3 minutes ago, Drasvin said:

Furthermore, there has been no indication that an immortal can grant spells to someone who has already awakened.

Not quite. It is not stated outright, but... I believe it is safe to say that it is at the very least hinted that Pandora might have been acting here.

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2 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

Not quite. It is not stated outright, but... I believe it is safe to say that it is at the very least hinted that Pandora might have been acting here.

If Pandora didn't outright give Nanase the spell, she might have provided the energy for Nanase to continue using magic until she fulfilled whatever requirement needed to earn the spell. Nanase is Tedd's cousin so I would imagine Pandora considers her family, if Nanase was to burnout before she obtained the guardian form spell, she would have failed to protect Ellen and it would have been devastating. It wouldn't break the guide and empower rule to give Nanase an extra push to keep fighting.

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8 minutes ago, Scotty said:

If Pandora didn't outright give Nanase the spell, she might have provided the energy for Nanase to continue using magic until she fulfilled whatever requirement needed to earn the spell. Nanase is Tedd's cousin so I would imagine Pandora considers her family, if Nanase was to burnout before she obtained the guardian form spell, she would have failed to protect Ellen and it would have been devastating. It wouldn't break the guide and empower rule to give Nanase an extra push to keep fighting.

Absolutely, I am not going to argue against that. I am simply saying that Pandora may have been more directly involved and hence this serves as an indication at least that it is possible.

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9 hours ago, mlooney said:
16 hours ago, mlooney said:

Dolphins are whales.  And ocopuses and crows are both tool makers, not tool users, but tool makers.

No, it's like "humans are great apes"

Whales and dolphins are both cetacea. The smallest of them is the Maui dolphin which usually is about a meter in length and weigh about 50 kg, and the largest are the blue whales which can be almost 30 meters long and weigh nearly 200,000 kg.

Wikipedia article here.

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