Story, Wednesday September 21, 2016

[Scotty 1,061]

13 minutes ago, JustBecauseICantDraw said:

http://www.egscomics.com/index.php?id=1699

I wonder if a "Vow" is an immortal rule we don't know about yet?

They might not have officially said anything, but I think when Jerry made his vow to Susan, considering it was as he was in the process of resetting it would be heavily implied that vows are binding agreements for Immortals even through resets.

[Vorlonagent 442]

A part of Jerry's vow was "...Be it in this life or any other..."  Which may explain how Jerry's vow continued into his next life.

[chridd 31]

"Knowing my basic nature, I will do my best to keep that promise." — I interpreted that as being more of a personality thing (he knows that he's the sort of person to keep promises, and that that's a trait he'll keep if he resets, rather than something he acquired later in life; other immortals might have different basic natures and be less inclined to keep promises), though it could be a part of immortal law.  On the other hand, Edward would probably know whether a vow made by an immortal is binding, so him asking Voltaire to make a vow would imply that it is binding in some way.

[WillikaKillika 4]

4 hours ago, Scotty said:

They might not have officially said anything, but I think when Jerry made his vow to Susan, considering it was as he was in the process of resetting it would be heavily implied that vows are binding agreements for Immortals even through resets.

Not much of a big deal, that's just an 80 year obligation... unless you're making a vow to another immortal.

 

But yeah, it just 'feels right' for vows to be binding.

[RainbowWizard 35]

"That's too broad"

 

> Proceeds to make a vow that is so loose it might as well not be there

 

He can even use the "You can be surprised what you can live through" logic to put Elliot in near-death scenarios that don't quite kill him... 

Coma time!

[Pippa's Ghost 4]

18 hours ago, Stature said:

The strip is in black and white, of course you could see his pearly whites!  

So there's never a trace of red...

[hkmaly 490]

20 hours ago, Scotty said:

They might not have officially said anything, but I think when Jerry made his vow to Susan, considering it was as he was in the process of resetting it would be heavily implied that vows are binding agreements for Immortals even through resets.

20 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

A part of Jerry's vow was "...Be it in this life or any other..."  Which may explain how Jerry's vow continued into his next life.

20 hours ago, chridd said:

"Knowing my basic nature, I will do my best to keep that promise." — I interpreted that as being more of a personality thing (he knows that he's the sort of person to keep promises

I think that the vows ARE binding for current incarnation, BUT that despite the "be it in this life or any other", there are immortals which wouldn't be bind by vows done before reset.

16 hours ago, WillikaKillika said:

Not much of a big deal, that's just an 80 year obligation... unless you're making a vow to another immortal.

That's assuming Tedd won't finish and give his friends the immortality watches.

They already have backups of their forms when they were 18. It may not work with TF gun alone, but I'm sure there is way to use those backups to make full age reset.

16 hours ago, RainbowWizard said:

He can even use the "You can be surprised what you can live through" logic to put Elliot in near-death scenarios that don't quite kill him... 

Coma time!

Well, we don't have anyone able to resurrect Elliot from death yet, but I'm sure they will be able to get him from coma.

 

[CritterKeeper 1,102]

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

I think that the vows ARE binding for current incarnation, BUT that despite the "be it in this life or any other", there are immortals which wouldn't be [bound] by vows done before reset.

Yeah, that sounds about right.  Jerry is commenting on his own basic personality, and thus what his reset self will likely be like -- someone who will honor a vow made in a past life.  We won't know for sure until Dan says so!

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

They already have backups of their forms when they were 18. It may not work with TF gun alone, but I'm sure there is way to use those backups to make full age reset.

We haven't discussed this lately, have we?  Hmm....a form becomes permanent if you get pregnant while transformed....and Tedd now thinks he can figure out how to change someone else's "default" sex....so maybe you could transform into an 18-year-old girl, then get pregnant, have the baby, and then if you're male gender, you get Tedd to turn you to a now-19-year-old male version of the girl you became permanently by getting pregnant.  If they all plan ahead and the guys get gender-swapped-but-otherwise-unchanged versions of themselves saved, then they can become their own normal self but younger.

Of course, there are ethical questions, especially about having a baby just to gain another lifespan, but there is still a two-year waiting list to adopt babies with Downes Syndrome, let alone healthy babies, so it's not like they'd be leaving the poor things on a  hillside.  They could do all the prep work they wanted, investigate potential adoptive parents thoroughly.  But, especially for the guys, it might become problematic if the child wanted to meet their biological parents someday....

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Well, we don't have anyone able to resurrect Elliot from death yet, but I'm sure they will be able to get him from coma.

The *only* healing I can recall in the comic is the option to give Ashley the ability to cure very minor scratches or ease pain slightly.  Is there anything in the archive I'm forgetting?

[hkmaly 490]

50 minutes ago, CritterKeeper said:

Quote

They already have backups of their forms when they were 18. It may not work with TF gun alone, but I'm sure there is way to use those backups to make full age reset.

We haven't discussed this lately, have we?  Hmm....a form becomes permanent if you get pregnant while transformed....and Tedd now thinks he can figure out how to change someone else's "default" sex....so maybe you could transform into an 18-year-old girl, then get pregnant, have the baby, and then if you're male gender, you get Tedd to turn you to a now-19-year-old male version of the girl you became permanently by getting pregnant.  If they all plan ahead and the guys get gender-swapped-but-otherwise-unchanged versions of themselves saved, then they can become their own normal self but younger.

Hmmmm ... I wouldn't be completely sure about how much permanent the form becames when pregnant, but it may work. Or he can develop something else. Considering what he developed over last year, I'm sure he can get lot done in next fifty years.

58 minutes ago, CritterKeeper said:

Of course, there are ethical questions, especially about having a baby just to gain another lifespan

Considering they're only need to do it every fifty years, well ok maybe thirty, it's not like they will be filling orphanages with them. They can just raise the children normally.

1 hour ago, CritterKeeper said:

it might become problematic if the child wanted to meet their biological parents someday....

Why? Child one, biological parents, Elliot and Ashley. Child two, biological parents, Elliot and Ashley. No test will ever discover that one of those children have Elliot as MOTHER and Ashley as FATHER ...

52 minutes ago, CritterKeeper said:

Quote

Well, we don't have anyone able to resurrect Elliot from death yet, but I'm sure they will be able to get him from coma.

The *only* healing I can recall in the comic is the option to give Ashley the ability to cure very minor scratches or ease pain slightly.  Is there anything in the archive I'm forgetting?

Nothing specific. Maybe I should've say they will be able to get him from coma eventually. Although ... there actually IS one other healing in canon. They only need to force him into Cheerleadra form.

(Also ... with Elliot in coma, Ashley might have just the correct kind of motivation to be markable with better healing spell ...)

 

[HarJIT 97]

6 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Why? Child one, biological parents, Elliot and Ashley. Child two, biological parents, Elliot and Ashley. No test will ever discover that one of those children have Elliot as MOTHER and Ashley as FATHER ...

Unless, that is, Elliot and Ashley happen to have different enough mitochondrial DNA to distinguish them, and it this is actually ever tested (which seems unlikely).

[malloyd 23]

4 hours ago, HarJIT said:

Unless, that is, Elliot and Ashley happen to have different enough mitochondrial DNA to distinguish them, and it this is actually ever tested (which seems unlikely).

I suspect you'd just assume some sort of contamination from the sperm mitochondria.  It happens occasionally.

Though this makes the unwarranted assumption that transforming people doesn't alter their DNA. 

And that biology in this universe even involves genes - which given the sorts of viable crossbreeds with characters from multiple parents, it probably does not.  Fiction involving that sort of thing usually draws from an older more intuitive model of inheritance that assumes stuff like continuous mixing rather than the digital algorithm one implicit in genetic code.

 

[hkmaly 490]

8 hours ago, malloyd said:

13 hours ago, HarJIT said:

Unless, that is, Elliot and Ashley happen to have different enough mitochondrial DNA to distinguish them, and it this is actually ever tested (which seems unlikely).

I suspect you'd just assume some sort of contamination from the sperm mitochondria.  It happens occasionally.

Though this makes the unwarranted assumption that transforming people doesn't alter their DNA. 

If it alters DNA, it's enchantment which will expire just like Elliot's shirt changed back even when he didn't had it on him. It can't hold for whole nine months.

... hmmm ... unless the enchantment on sperm's chromosomes becomes permanent just like the enchantment of pregnant person ...

8 hours ago, malloyd said:

And that biology in this universe even involves genes - which given the sorts of viable crossbreeds with characters from multiple parents, it probably does not.  Fiction involving that sort of thing usually draws from an older more intuitive model of inheritance that assumes stuff like continuous mixing rather than the digital algorithm one implicit in genetic code.

Chimeras from uryuom eggs are not "normal" crossbreeds. Obviously, the eggs contain some sort of enzymes which can do more complicated DNA merges than standard crossbreeding. Grace likely have more chromosomes than human, BUT she also have uryuom enzymes allowing her to still breed with humans.

[malloyd 23]

43 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Chimeras from uryuom eggs are not "normal" crossbreeds. Obviously, the eggs contain some sort of enzymes which can do more complicated DNA merges than standard crossbreeding. Grace likely have more chromosomes than human, BUT she also have uryuom enzymes allowing her to still breed with humans.

Maybe if uryuom "eggs" are actually sapient nanomachines.  You can't just "merge" DNA of two organisms on a large scale and expect to get something viable, let alone something that displays characteristics from each "parent" organism.  You are going to need to make *decisions* on which genes to include and which to drop, what order to turn them on, what do to about two structures that would conflict (or compete with each other for resources during development)....  It's easy enough for genetic engineering to fail for "simple" insertions of a few genes from closely related plants and get non-dividing cells, disorganized tumors, or seriously sick plants.  Building an unprecedented new species (and that's what every new combination is after all) well maybe someday but the computational power you'd need will be pretty incredible - expect to need to run a near molecule level simulation of a substantial fraction of the lifespan of the organism.

 

[hkmaly 490]

32 minutes ago, malloyd said:

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Chimeras from uryuom eggs are not "normal" crossbreeds. Obviously, the eggs contain some sort of enzymes which can do more complicated DNA merges than standard crossbreeding. Grace likely have more chromosomes than human, BUT she also have uryuom enzymes allowing her to still breed with humans.

Maybe if uryuom "eggs" are actually sapient nanomachines.  You can't just "merge" DNA of two organisms on a large scale and expect to get something viable, let alone something that displays characteristics from each "parent" organism.  You are going to need to make *decisions* on which genes to include and which to drop, what order to turn them on, what do to about two structures that would conflict (or compete with each other for resources during development)....  It's easy enough for genetic engineering to fail for "simple" insertions of a few genes from closely related plants and get non-dividing cells, disorganized tumors, or seriously sick plants.  Building an unprecedented new species (and that's what every new combination is after all) well maybe someday but the computational power you'd need will be pretty incredible - expect to need to run a near molecule level simulation of a substantial fraction of the lifespan of the organism.

Uryuom have shapeshifting and telekinesis.

Shapeshifting which might include changing mass.

Also, the resulting organism is able to shapeshift into something resembling any parent.

I think the egg is actually postponing the decision as much as possible, THEN uses sapience of the child to make them.

And while that might be impossible in our universe, it doesn't sound THAT impossible in EGS.

Note that based on problems Grace's siblings had, I think it's NOT actually possible to merge ANYTHING in uryuom egg without stabilizing the result with uryuom DNA. Vlad likely wouldn't born without uryuom DNA, and he was unable to transform anyway. Hedgehog and guinea pigs are mammals and therefore mostly compatible with humans until very late in embryo development.

And it is likely the egg doesn't need simulation because it simply tries it and if it detects danger, stops it. That's something our current genetic engineers can't do - they make the DNA and then let it build the organism and look at result, without any ability to react to the state of the organism.

[CritterKeeper 1,102]

19 hours ago, malloyd said:

Maybe if uryuom "eggs" are actually sapient nanomachines.  You can't just "merge" DNA of two organisms on a large scale and expect to get something viable, let alone something that displays characteristics from each "parent" organism.  You are going to need to make *decisions* on which genes to include and which to drop, what order to turn them on, what do to about two structures that would conflict (or compete with each other for resources during development).... 

Wow, sounds like the only way to get it to work is to wave your magic wand....

It's far too complicated a problem for our science to even think of most of the problems, let alone figure out how to solve them,  We're just going to have to say that magic is involved, or at least technology that is sufficiently advanced to invoke Clarke's Third Law.

20 hours ago, hkmaly said:

If it alters DNA, it's enchantment which will expire just like Elliot's shirt changed back even when he didn't had it on him. It can't hold for whole nine months.

... hmmm ... unless the enchantment on sperm's chromosomes becomes permanent just like the enchantment of pregnant person ...

I would think that any safeties for pregnancy would have to cover the safety of the embryo and not just the mother.  Not much point in permanently changing the mother to sustain a completely non-viable embryo.  Whatever your feelings about personhood or soul or whatever else, there is no denying that once an egg has become fertilized by sperm, the resulting zygote is a distinct organism which has its own genetic code, just as much as an adult offspring has their own genetic code distinct from their parents.  It's the same DNA, just multiplied many billions of times.

[malloyd 23]

4 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

Wow, sounds like the only way to get it to work is to wave your magic wand....

Pretty much.  I've always liked Larry Niven's line "LL could more easily breed with an ear of corn than with Superman".  It is just about possible you could *eat* an alien organism or vice versa.  Not most of it (you can't even eat the vast majority of the biomass here on Earth, what with it being corals and trees), but it's not ridiculous something could be edible with minimal or no processing.  But you will not be transfusing alien blood, catching an alien virus, grafting on alien limbs, bearing a part alien child, or implanting your brain in an alien body, no matter what a century of science fiction says.

[hkmaly 490]

8 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

On 09/23/2016 at 0:36 AM, hkmaly said:

If it alters DNA, it's enchantment which will expire just like Elliot's shirt changed back even when he didn't had it on him. It can't hold for whole nine months.

... hmmm ... unless the enchantment on sperm's chromosomes becomes permanent just like the enchantment of pregnant person ...

I would think that any safeties for pregnancy would have to cover the safety of the embryo and not just the mother.  Not much point in permanently changing the mother to sustain a completely non-viable embryo.  Whatever your feelings about personhood or soul or whatever else, there is no denying that once an egg has become fertilized by sperm, the resulting zygote is a distinct organism which has its own genetic code, just as much as an adult offspring has their own genetic code distinct from their parents.  It's the same DNA, just multiplied many billions of times.

The difference is that ending the enchantment on mother would kill the embryo. Ending the enchantment on child would STILL result in viable embryo. Unless the end of enchantment would result in the embryo having two Y chromosomes of course, that's not viable.

4 hours ago, malloyd said:

8 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

Wow, sounds like the only way to get it to work is to wave your magic wand....

Pretty much.  I've always liked Larry Niven's line "LL could more easily breed with an ear of corn than with Superman".

On the other hand, the sex with Superman was likely better.

4 hours ago, malloyd said:

It is just about possible you could *eat* an alien organism or vice versa.  Not most of it (you can't even eat the vast majority of the biomass here on Earth, what with it being corals and trees), but it's not ridiculous something could be edible with minimal or no processing.

While you personally can have problems eating an alien organism, the earth biosphere as a whole wouldn't. As long as it's biology is based on carbon, it's almost certain there would be something able to eat it.

4 hours ago, malloyd said:

But you will not be transfusing alien blood

Might be safer than transfusing human blood with incorrect type, though.

4 hours ago, malloyd said:

catching an alien virus

Definitely. Virus is parasitic organism unable to live on it's own.

But note that you CAN catch alien disease or alien can catch our disease, if it's based on bacteria (and if he's unlucky). Bacteria ARE able to live on it's own, they MAY find your body eatable enough to reproduce and your immune system would have no idea how to fight with them. Of course, all stuff the bacteria may have for fighting immune system would ALSO be useless, and the most deadly diseases may be harmless while something we barely recognize as disease could be deadly to aliens.

(Actually, it's MORE LIKELY - the most deadly diseases are deadly BECAUSE they are closely adapted to target. Meanwhile, bacteria and fungi usually doing decay are relatively general, some of them able to eat even plastics.)

4 hours ago, malloyd said:

grafting on alien limbs, bearing a part alien child, or implanting your brain in an alien body

This would be certainly impossible to happen RANDOMLY.

The chance for different biosphere to develop compatible with our own is basically zero.

We know that our own biosphere have minimal abilities to interface with something unknown.

But that may not be true for alien biosphere. While unlikely for it to develop such ability randomly, it may be bioengineered into it if by alien scientists (who are usually more advanced that our own, after all, they usually have viable space travel).

Or, as I believe is the case of Uryuom, it may be result of their "technically magic". Either the shapeshifting, even the limited kind Uryuom usually have, requires similar kind of adaptibility, or it's a separate ability they (well ... their eggs) have. It's still tame compared with what abilities earth magic can give to people.

Similarly, demons having children with humans make more sense than superman having one because they are using magic to make that possible. Also, usually demons are not completely separate biosphere.

[mlooney 3,417]

Quote

On the other hand, the sex with Superman was likely better.

I supect not. To also quote from Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex

Quote

The problem is this. Electroencephalograms taken of men and women during sexual intercourse show that orgasm resembles "a kind of pleasurable epileptic attack." One loses control over one's muscles.

Superman has been known to leave his fingerprints in steel and in hardened concrete, accidentally. What would he do to the woman in his arms during what amounts to an epileptic fit?

Consider the driving urge between a man and a woman, the monomaniacal urge to achieve greater and greater penetration. Remember also that we are dealing with kryptonian muscles.

Superman would literally crush LL's body in his arms, while simultaneously ripping her open from crotch to sternum, gutting her like a trout.

Lastly, he'd blow off the top of her head.

Ejaculation of semen is entirely involuntary in the human male, and in all other forms of terrestrial life. It would be unreasonable to assume otherwise for a kryptonian. But with kryptonian muscles behind it, Kal-El's semen would emerge with the muzzle velocity of a machine gun bullet.

 

[ijuin 572]

10 hours ago, hkmaly said:

While you personally can have problems eating an alien organism, the earth biosphere as a whole wouldn't. As long as it's biology is based on carbon, it's almost certain there would be something able to eat it.(snip)

(Actually, it's MORE LIKELY - the most deadly diseases are deadly BECAUSE they are closely adapted to target. Meanwhile, bacteria and fungi usually doing decay are relatively general, some of them able to eat even plastics.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nylon-eating_bacteria

These bacteria have developed the ability to digest nylon, a substance believed not to have existed anywhere on Earth in bulk quantities before 1935.

As an aside, the fact that a strain of bacteria has developed this ability, implies that we could engineer bacteria to biodegrade our waste plastic, although that would bring with it the drawback that we would have to use a coat of some sort of paint to protect plastic against them in the outdoors (as we do for wood).

[EmpactWB 21]

3 hours ago, ijuin said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nylon-eating_bacteria

These bacteria have developed the ability to digest nylon, a substance believed not to have existed anywhere on Earth in bulk quantities before 1935.

As an aside, the fact that a strain of bacteria has developed this ability, implies that we could engineer bacteria to biodegrade our waste plastic, although that would bring with it the drawback that we would have to use a coat of some sort of paint to protect plastic against them in the outdoors (as we do for wood).

As with so many things, evolution beat us to it. 

[ijuin 572]

Yeah, bacteria have already adapted to some plastics. In a few decades we will be able to engineer them to eat any plastics that we wish.

[hkmaly 490]

9 hours ago, ijuin said:

As an aside, the fact that a strain of bacteria has developed this ability, implies that we could engineer bacteria to biodegrade our waste plastic, although that would bring with it the drawback that we would have to use a coat of some sort of paint to protect plastic against them in the outdoors (as we do for wood).

Using the PETs as example, I would say that it's unlikely the bacteria will be THAT quick with it to be problem. In case of packaging material, I mean. Of course, if it's something which is SUPPOSED to be permanent ...

16 hours ago, mlooney said:

Quote

On the other hand, the sex with Superman was likely better.

I supect not. To also quote from Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex

Hmmmm .... Wait ... don't they have some sort of kryptonite which would solve this?

Or, well, spaceship and red sun.

(Regarding the child: note that superman did not presumably gained all his abilities at once. At least based on series depicting his youth.)

[Vorlonagent 442]

Niven's essay is great fun but Niven's understanding of the Earth-1 Superman was a bit shallow.  He may have intentionally omitted certain points of lore that deflated some of his best gags.

For example: You don't need a spaceship and a red sun.  Superman has faced Red Sun radiation generators on earth many times.  Once he even had a coat that generated it internally allowing Clark Kent to play the hero against a mugger.  A nights lovemaking under the effects of Red Sun radiation would insure his paramour's safety (Niven simply calls her "LL") without resorting to kryptonite as Niven does.  LL wouid have to spend her pregnancy under red sun in some form, probably using some kind of red-sun maternity clothes.

The Earth-1 Superman is also powerless against magic.  If we're going to breed Superman and entirely ignore Supergirl and/or Power Girl and poossibly returning the residents of the bottle city of Kandor to normal size, Zatanna might be the best choice for a mommy or a surrogate.

[Pharaoh RutinTutin 1,586]

3 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

The Earth-1 Superman is also powerless against magic. 

Isn't it more accurate to say that Kal-El is no more resistant to magic than a human?

But as some magic can be resisted by will power, he is still above average.

3 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

Zatanna might be the best choice for a mommy or a surrogate.

I think Wonder Woman would be a better option.  While she isn't a classic wizard type hero, her powers are derived from a magical/divine source.  And she has the inherent strength and toughness to survive carrying an infant Kryptonian.

[Vorlonagent 442]

36 minutes ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Isn't it more accurate to say that Kal-El is no more resistant to magic than a human?

But as some magic can be resisted by will power, he is still above average.

No, actually.  A normal human has *better* magic resistance than the Earth-1 Superman.  I will try to be brief with my exposition.

DC Lore prior to the mid-1980s Crisis on Infinite Earths, which reset the DC universe, had a proto-hominid species seeding multiple worlds with humanoid life forms, including both Earth and Krypton.  It's how Supes looks so human.  He is in fact a distant cousin. 

Earth had these seeded humans but also hosted a unique subspecies that was called Homo Magus, which was capable of magic.  Homo Magus tended to dilute into the general population, giving all humans what amounted to some magic resistance but no real ability.  The Earth-1 Zatanna was a pureblood Homo Magus.  I think she was the last one but my memory could be in error.

Anyway, there is no Homo Magus in Kal-El's lineage so he is worse off against magic than Ambush Bug.

I don't know how well Earth-1 magic was resisted with willpower,  It's been too long.  Superman's will is usually considered exceptional.  Some DC lore has Kal-El as planned to be a Kryptonian Green Lantern candidate, but I don't remember if that was pre-Crisis, post-Crisis, or both.
 

36 minutes ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

I think Wonder Woman would be a better option.  While she isn't a classic wizard type hero, her powers are derived from a magical/divine source.  And she has the inherent strength and toughness to survive carrying an infant Kryptonian.

Very true.  Especially the Earth-1 Wonder Woman.  She's just ungodly powerful by comparison to Superman's uneartly, but probably strong enough to handle pregnancy with a baby featuring the full-Kryptonian powerset.  She'd have a few caveats of her own to watch out for.  If she were carrying a male child, it's possible she could end up depowering Paradise Island if she went home to have the baby.

Obviously the best choice would be a Kryptonian female, i.e Supergirl.  Power Girl was native to Earth-2 at that time.  Technically, both women were Kara Zor-El.  Given the obvious physical differences between the two, cross-dimensional pairings (Earth-1 Superman + Power Girl, Earth 2 Superman + Supergirl) might be genetically viable, but over the objections of a couple of Lois Lanes...