Story: Friday March 11 2016

[Stature 96]

58 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

The really weird issue is the magic reset. Apparently, while "other" physical laws are solid, magic laws can change a lot.

That might only happen if there are innovations to using magic.

Non-English pronunciations can sometimes throw people off (e.g. Spanish and its derivatives)

[Scotty 1,061]

I know all to well about pronunciation, I had a bad habit of correcting other students in early elementary school on pronouncing words. I had an unusual knack for being able to look at a word and figure out how to say it. I wasn't perfect, but it was enough to annoy my classmates.

[SeriousJupiter 49]

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Not literally everywhere but are definitely very common.

Tara might've not really meant it seriously. Or she never cared.

Okay, not literally everywhere, but certainly in every universe.

I think Tara really didn't know the answer to her question, but she also guessed that she would most likely prefer not to know it.

[hkmaly 490]

20 minutes ago, SeriousJupiter said:

Okay, not literally everywhere, but certainly in every universe.

The Gods Themselves from Isaac Asimov have humans only in one of three of described universes. (You WAS asking for counterexamples, right? ... I must admit I can't remember second one. Not counting the ones where were no humans before the events described but were afterwards.)

20 minutes ago, SeriousJupiter said:

I think Tara really didn't know the answer to her question, but she also guessed that she would most likely prefer not to know it.

If you take it seriously, it's hard question: even if she met hundreds of people, she may never be sure until she specifically asked. The advantage might not be common knowledge or important enough to be worth mentioning before. So, yes, she definitely didn't know the answer.

The question is, if she really expected Elliot to say "yes", or if she expected he'll say "no" but just wanted to be sure.

Note that she mentioned that the specific mechanism of said advantage might be something she is better not knowing, not the answer itself.

[showler 14]

It occurred to me earlier:  In order for Andrea to know that the spell has "persistence", she has to have the ability to analyze a spell the same way Tedd does.  Otherwise how could she know the doll will persist after Nanase cuts the connection?

[Scotty 1,061]

Just now, showler said:

It occurred to me earlier:  In order for Andrea to know that the spell has "persistence", she has to have the ability to analyze a spell the same way Tedd does.  Otherwise how could she know the doll will persist after Nanase cuts the connection?

Not necessarily, Tara was able to see through Elliot's enchantments, as well as see Ellen's, Nanase's and Diane's magic potential, Edward also had ways of analyzing a spell. Tedd's ability to analyze spell effects might not be the rare thing but instead the fact that he's able to do such a thing is the real mystery.

[Ser Pentrose 14]

2 hours ago, Scotty said:

Not necessarily, Tara was able to see through Elliot's enchantments, as well as see Ellen's, Nanase's and Diane's magic potential, Edward also had ways of analyzing a spell. Tedd's ability to analyze spell effects might not be the rare thing but instead the fact that he's able to do such a thing is the real mystery.

It's also possible that it's not rare where Tara comes from, though I think it more likely that it isn't what  makes Tedd a "far more dangerous rarity", though it likely is one aspect of it.

My guess would be that what makes Tedd a rarity is his natural abilities with magitech. I just hope for his sake that he never visits a world wherein such genius is invariably accompanied by madness, as one must follow the laws of the universe in which one finds oneself.

[Wildcat 37]

5 hours ago, hkmaly said:

 

6 hours ago, Scotty said:

Maybe more like "He's the ONE!"

Whoa.....

 

 

The laws of physics are based on what we've been able to perceive with our current capabilities in science, as we learn more about things, our understanding of physics changes. If we see something that appears to break the laws of physics, it just means that something happened that we've never expected. Magic as it stands still somewhat follows the laws of physics, stuff like being able to fly may seem physics breaking but I imagine if scientists ever figured out anti-gravity then Nanase's physic teacher likely wouldn't be so annoyed seeing her floating around the school halls. Heck Nanase's ability to create the dolls could be explained as a form of matter replication, drawing from molecules in the environment to form the doll.

Agree. Newton would totally see black hole as impossible. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic (Clarke) and any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from technology (Girl Genius).

The really weird issue is the magic reset. Apparently, while "other" physical laws are solid, magic laws can change a lot.

 

My understanding is that the laws can change because magic has a mind, of a sort. So it may be like computers in that there are underlying rules that it always has to follow, but the operating system  and user interface can change drastically.

 

[partner555 170]

16 hours ago, Scotty said:

New theory for you Zorua, what if Nanase's family originated in Tara and Andrea's half of the world?

That actually sounds plausible.

[PSadlon 88]

All this talk of Nanase's Aura has me wondering what the griffons would report with Tedd.

[Zorua 124]

3 hours ago, Lady Pentrose said:

It's also possible that it's not rare where Tara comes from

Or it could be a griffon species trait, maybe.

[Matoyak 51]

20 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

Given that Tara is a knight and their persistent mention of royalty I am starting to suspect that their half of the world (Darn you, Dan, EXPLAIN THAT!) is a monarchy with a feudal system of some sort. Possibly a vestigial one with some sort of civil representation. Moreover, I find the reactions of the griffins rather interesting. I have this feeling that they still have Nanase placed in the slot marked 'royalty' in their worldview and that they go along with not calling her 'princess' mostly as polite acceptance of royal caprice. ("Uh, of course, your Majest -- I mean, your Elizabethness -- I mean Elizabeth!")

Hmm. Possibility of Abraham being from that half of the world as well?

Also, I'm guessing something vaguely Arthurian for the Griffin world.

Also also, it's pretty amusing seeing "do you know how many laws of physics you're breaking" coming out of the mouth of a flying tiger-bird

[RainbowWizard 35]

1 hour ago, Matoyak said:

Hmm. Possibility of Abraham being from that half of the world as well?

Also, I'm guessing something vaguely Arthurian for the Griffin world.

Also also, it's pretty amusing seeing "do you know how many laws of physics you're breaking" coming out of the mouth of a flying tiger-bird

Tedd: "Question. The bits between the mammal and the bird bits. The intersection, where one taxonomical distinction becomes another. How?"

 

Andrea: "Same way your lady friend is a squirrel girl."

 

Tedd: "Oh, you have alien DNA patching over those bits too?"

[Scotty 1,061]

5 hours ago, Matoyak said:

Also also, it's pretty amusing seeing "do you know how many laws of physics you're breaking" coming out of the mouth of a flying tiger-bird

It was Andrea that said that, not Tara, Andrea is likely the standard lion based griffin as her tail has mainly short fur then a fluffy tuft at the end.

 

4 hours ago, RainbowWizard said:

Tedd: "Question. The bits between the mammal and the bird bits. The intersection, where one taxonomical distinction becomes another. How?"

 

Andrea: "Same way your lady friend is a squirrel girl."

 

Tedd: "Oh, you have alien DNA patching over those bits too?"

I'd be more inclined to think that if Tara could tell that Ellen's magic potential was not the same as Elliot's, but she likely sees that Ellen isn't a true biological twin, but hasn't seen anything like her before so doesn't actually know why so saying she's different is the best she can do to describe her, I would imagine if Tara and Andrea saw Grace, they'd see her Uryuom energy is different magic potential as well. We know Edward's magic analysis wand pointed at Grace would give a false report of her being awakened but it's clear that Edward and likely everyone else in DGB knows the difference between Uryuom "magic" energy and human magic energy.

[Wildcat 37]

9 hours ago, PSadlon said:

All this talk of Nanase's Aura has me wondering what the griffons would report with Tedd.

Seconded 

7 hours ago, RainbowWizard said:

Tedd: "Question. The bits between the mammal and the bird bits. The intersection, where one taxonomical distinction becomes another. How?"

 

Andrea: "Same way your lady friend is a squirrel girl."

 

Tedd: "Oh, you have alien DNA patching over those bits too?"

More likely they just evolved separately. The "hair" is certainly odd enough 

[hkmaly 490]

16 hours ago, Scotty said:

16 hours ago, showler said:

It occurred to me earlier:  In order for Andrea to know that the spell has "persistence", she has to have the ability to analyze a spell the same way Tedd does.  Otherwise how could she know the doll will persist after Nanase cuts the connection?

Not necessarily, Tara was able to see through Elliot's enchantments, as well as see Ellen's, Nanase's and Diane's magic potential, Edward also had ways of analyzing a spell. Tedd's ability to analyze spell effects might not be the rare thing but instead the fact that he's able to do such a thing is the real mystery.

There are lot of ways to analyze spells but they may not be equal. It's possible that Tedd's ability is more precise, able to get more details or something ... and it may be just start of his dangerous rarity.

9 hours ago, Matoyak said:

Hmm. Possibility of Abraham being from that half of the world as well?

... I find extremely unlikely that the traffic between the halves would be that common. Remember than Adrian Raven knew about Abraham, are you going to suggest he's from the other half as well? With Pandora being Ancient?

Similarly, Noriko had LONG family history. If the family is from the other half of world it happened generations ago. Which brings the question if that would still be relevant.

9 hours ago, Matoyak said:

Also also, it's pretty amusing seeing "do you know how many laws of physics you're breaking" coming out of the mouth of a flying tiger-bird

With wings too small to fly without magic, yes ... but still, breaking the thermodynamical laws is generally considered more serious than the other ones.

8 hours ago, RainbowWizard said:

Tedd: "Question. The bits between the mammal and the bird bits. The intersection, where one taxonomical distinction becomes another. How?"

 

Andrea: "Same way your lady friend is a squirrel girl."

 

Tedd: "Oh, you have alien DNA patching over those bits too?"

Andrea: "No. I meant that just because it looks like mammal and bird bits it doesn't mean the internal differences are that big."

Seriously. Mermaids definitely can't have two independent circulatory systems, one with warm blood and one with cold. And Griffins certainly don't have red blood cells with nuclei for bird parts and ones without for mammal parts. The "intersection" is likely only skin deep.

4 hours ago, Scotty said:

I would imagine if Tara and Andrea saw Grace, they'd see her Uryuom energy is different magic potential as well. We know Edward's magic analysis wand pointed at Grace would give a false report of her being awakened but it's clear that Edward and likely everyone else in DGB knows the difference between Uryuom "magic" energy and human magic energy.

Yes. They would likely be able to identify Grace's magic is not compatible with human one, but they may not know why. Unless they have their own aliens.

And BTW, no. It seems that not even agent Wolf have the same level of knowledge about Uryuom than Edward. Or at least he didn't HAD the same level two years ago.

 

[HarJIT 97]

Birds have nucleate erythrocytes? ... TIL.

Edited March 12, 2016 by HarJIT
Clearer in intent.

[Scotty 1,061]

48 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

There are lot of ways to analyze spells but they may not be equal. It's possible that Tedd's ability is more precise, able to get more details or something ... and it may be just start of his dangerous rarity.

Yeah, Tedd's rarity is still complete speculation at this point. It was just a thought that the spells themselves aren't special, but the fact that Tedd can use them when he shouldn't be able to is the special bit.

 

48 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

... I find extremely unlikely that the traffic between the halves would be that common. Remember than Adrian Raven knew about Abraham, are you going to suggest he's from the other half as well? With Pandora being Ancient?

Similarly, Noriko had LONG family history. If the family is from the other half of world it happened generations ago. Which brings the question if that would still be relevant.

Yeah I wouldn't expect all magic users to have traveled from the griffin's half of the world. My theory was that Noriko's family could have been and yeah this would likely have happened several generations ago. Obviously Nanase's mom knows more about the family history than Nanase does so she's likely our best chance at finding out about it.

As it is, it seems clear that in the griffin's half of the world, royal families are still a big deal whereas in this half (which would reflect our world too) world leaders are mainly elected or rise to power through military action, in much of the world, the idea of a royal family has faded quite a bit, even the British Monarchy doesn't hold the same level of power as it did a hundred years or so ago, the media seems to treat them more like celebrities than royalty really. Someone claiming to have royal ancestry would likely get a "cool, but don't expect to be able to walk into a country and have anyone bow down to you."

As for why the Kistune family would have come to this half of the world, there are many possibilities, the family was usurped by another powerful family, some disaster was approaching and they took refuge here and some never went back, or one of the members came over on some mission and fell in love with a local and decided to stay.

 

48 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Yes. They would likely be able to identify Grace's magic is not compatible with human one, but they may not know why. Unless they have their own aliens.

And BTW, no. It seems that not even agent Wolf have the same level of knowledge about Uryuom than Edward. Or at least he didn't HAD the same level two years ago.

 

I got the impression that Wolf and Cranium were still considered rookies back in those flashbacks when they encountered Pandora and Lavender was probably the first Uryuom Wolf had met. They've probably became more privy to some of the finer details in DGB since then considering their loyalty to Edward.

[SeriousJupiter 49]

I don't think Nanase's mother's family (not the Kitsune family, btw - that name comes from Nanase's father) originated in the griffins' half of the world. I believe their family just happens to be a particularly powerful bunch of wizards and mages. I know Tara said Nanase's aura "radiates royalty", but if she is used to seeing only royals with auras as magical as Nanase's, that may not mean much in this half of the world. Who knows, maybe she would think ALL powerful wizards in EGS (Edward, Raven, Wolf, Cranium) are royalty before being told otherwise. Perhaps her half of the world, as odd as it sounds, has far less magic users than we originally thought or then I am completely wrong and Nanase's mother has kept even more secrets from her daughter.

Also, Nanase isn't even a wizard, because she can't learn other people's spells. I've always considered wizards to be far superior to mages in EGS, but now I see that it might not be that simple.

[partner555 170]

29 minutes ago, SeriousJupiter said:

Also, Nanase isn't even a wizard, because she can't learn other people's spells. I've always considered wizards to be far superior to mages in EGS, but now I see that it might not be that simple.

The thing about wizards is that they can learn other people's spells. We don't know if this is limitless or if there are limits.

[Scotty 1,061]

Well we know Wolf Described Noriko as a "Legendary Monster Hunter" and "Powerhouse" which would imply that Noriko would be more powerful than Edward, Wolf and Cranium combined. So I'm willing to bet that if Tara and Andrea looked at Edward, they'd be like "yeah he's got strong magic ability, but he's no royal".

[The Old Hack 2,448]

3 hours ago, hkmaly said:

With wings too small to fly without magic, yes ... but still, breaking the thermodynamical laws is generally considered more serious than the other ones.

This gives me a rather strange mental image of some courtroom where magicians are being prosecuted for violating the laws of physics, with infractions against the square/cube law seen as mere misdemeanours whereas something like creating a machine that produces more energy than goes into it is a very serious offence that might result in a protracted stay in jail.

[partner555 170]

7 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

This gives me a rather strange mental image of some courtroom where magicians are being prosecuted for violating the laws of physics, with infractions against the square/cube law seen as mere misdemeanours whereas something like creating a machine that produces more energy than goes into it is a very serious offence that might result in a protracted stay in jail.

Time to nominate a judge. I nominate Albert Einstein.

[hkmaly 490]

3 hours ago, Scotty said:

As it is, it seems clear that in the griffin's half of the world, royal families are still a big deal whereas in this half (which would reflect our world too) world leaders are mainly elected or rise to power through military action, in much of the world, the idea of a royal family has faded quite a bit, even the British Monarchy doesn't hold the same level of power as it did a hundred years or so ago, the media seems to treat them more like celebrities than royalty really. Someone claiming to have royal ancestry would likely get a "cool, but don't expect to be able to walk into a country and have anyone bow down to you."

Most royal families rose to power through military action. The difference is that it happened several generations ago.

1 hour ago, SeriousJupiter said:

I don't think Nanase's mother's family (not the Kitsune family, btw - that name comes from Nanase's father) originated in the griffins' half of the world. I believe their family just happens to be a particularly powerful bunch of wizards and mages. I know Tara said Nanase's aura "radiates royalty", but if she is used to seeing only royals with auras as magical as Nanase's, that may not mean much in this half of the world. Who knows, maybe she would think ALL powerful wizards in EGS (Edward, Raven, Wolf, Cranium) are royalty before being told otherwise. Perhaps her half of the world, as odd as it sounds, has far less magic users than we originally thought or then I am completely wrong and Nanase's mother has kept even more secrets from her daughter.

I'm sure griffins will be able to recognize elf. And we don't know if Cranium is powerful. Wolf and Edward, maybe.

Her half may have same number of human magic users as our world (or at least same number of magic user FAMILIES, that is, people with hereditary magical affinity), the difference being they are more public. With current lack of information, I would consider it most likely.

1 hour ago, partner555 said:

1 hour ago, SeriousJupiter said:

Also, Nanase isn't even a wizard, because she can't learn other people's spells. I've always considered wizards to be far superior to mages in EGS, but now I see that it might not be that simple.

The thing about wizards is that they can learn other people's spells. We don't know if this is limitless or if there are limits.

Ability to learn other people's spell is definitely useful, but not "far superior". Even after learning the spell they may not have enough power to cast it - just as Sarah wouldn't have power to cast her spell outside Moperville. Also, it's ability which will not really help unless they know some other magic user with useful spells ...

10 minutes ago, partner555 said:

18 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

This gives me a rather strange mental image of some courtroom where magicians are being prosecuted for violating the laws of physics, with infractions against the square/cube law seen as mere misdemeanours whereas something like creating a machine that produces more energy than goes into it is a very serious offence that might result in a protracted stay in jail.

Time to nominate a judge. I nominate Albert Einstein.

Stephen Hawking. I think Einstein would be problematic for such courtroom due to being dead. Unless the courtroom IS in afterlife ... wait, that would be even more hypocritical.

[Scotty 1,061]

7 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Most royal families rose to power through military action. The difference is that it happened several generations ago.

In our world, certainly. As well as people claiming to be chosen by a divine power. In the EGS universe, someone having a considerable magic ability would be able to back up the claim of being chosen by a divine power. After a while you'll eventually have families rise up that are distinctly more powerful than anyone else and so the notion of someone with a very strong aura being of a royal bloodline would take hold. In Tara and Andrea's half of the world this notion is still pretty strong and the human royal families would be revered by many as leaders, whereas in the main 8's half, magic had fallen into secrecy for many generations.