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Howitzer

Story: Friday, September 23, 2016

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6 minutes ago, Howitzer said:

Never argue with a lawyer paranormal expert.

Ya sure he was not a lawyer before he became a paranormal expert? Every good side needs a Phoenix Wright. :demonicduck:

 

There is attempted murder, and there is attempted homicide. We would know that Colonel Volty wanted homicide over murder.

Screw... ball. I got nothing.

Nevertheless, the whole convo we have right now, I cannot assent.

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Ok, this vow looks more robust, but I'm sure Voltaire will try something.

Actually, scratch that. If he kills Elliot with no "intent", that may not be covered under this vow.

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I'm fairly certain Voltaire's vow is a "from this point forward" sort of thing, which leaves the impending mayhem he's already initiated with Sirleck in the clear.  This is one of those "I won't do anything (because I already DID, muahahaha!), I promise," deals.

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Voltaire, what exactly do you mean by "Elliot"?  (I mean, the fairy-doll spell didn't consider Cheerleadra to be Elliot... although Cheerleadra dying would result in Elliot being dead, so maybe there isn't a loophole here... but would that could as Elliot "being killed"?)

Even if there aren't any exploitable loopholes here, there's still plenty of damage he could do (like getting anyone else killed, including other major characters and random innocent bystanders, and doing things that could harm Elliot in some way without getting him killed).

Or he could break the vow and deal with the consequences.  If the consequences are the same as breaking immortal law, then they include all immortals knowing why he did what he did, and if he truly believes what he's doing is for the greater good and that other immortals will find his reasons convincing, he might see that as a positive (i.e., he has to reset, but not only does he get another chance to kill Elliot, but he also gets to tell every immortal why killing Elliot is necessary to stop Pandora's plan and how evil Pandora's plan is (or whatever he believes) in a way where it's potentially harder to lie and therefore more believable).

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7 hours ago, Stature said:

We would know that Colonel Volty wanted homicide over murder.

Plan A was most definitely murder.

5 hours ago, chridd said:

Voltaire, what exactly do you mean by "Elliot"?  (I mean, the fairy-doll spell didn't consider Cheerleadra to be Elliot... although Cheerleadra dying would result in Elliot being dead, so maybe there isn't a loophole here... but would that could as Elliot "being killed"?)

Even if there aren't any exploitable loopholes here, there's still plenty of damage he could do (like getting anyone else killed, including other major characters and random innocent bystanders, and doing things that could harm Elliot in some way without getting him killed).

Or he could break the vow and deal with the consequences.  If the consequences are the same as breaking immortal law, then they include all immortals knowing why he did what he did, and if he truly believes what he's doing is for the greater good and that other immortals will find his reasons convincing, he might see that as a positive (i.e., he has to reset, but not only does he get another chance to kill Elliot, but he also gets to tell every immortal why killing Elliot is necessary to stop Pandora's plan and how evil Pandora's plan is (or whatever he believes) in a way where it's potentially harder to lie and therefore more believable).

I still say that Voltaire can agree to almost anything at this point, his visit was part of Plan CM but not the entirety of it, he's already got Sirleck fed with misinformation about Adrian, and vampires are in town keeping Helena and Demetrius jumping back and forth. Voltaire's visit is basically to wash his hands of it.

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Still think his vow means squat.  Edward might know something not shown in canon, but Dan went to a great amount of time and trouble to establish that immortals on this side of the coin can lie.

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35 minutes ago, mlooney said:

Still think his vow means squat.  Edward might know something not shown in canon, but Dan went to a great amount of time and trouble to establish that immortals on this side of the coin can lie.

I think from the way Edward is talking, when Immortals take a vow, it is as binding as the rules in place already for Immortals.  Voltaire seems to be acting this way as well, not wanting to vow to a restraining order, which means he doesn't want to leave Elliot alone for now.  Perhaps plan CM will work without Elliot's death.  The issue I guess is what was Plan CM supposed to prevent?  Pandora's plan of revealing Magic, helping Magus, both?  Preventing Magus from coming back just means killing Elliot OR Ellen.  Preventing the Pandora's plan to reveal Magic could have been accomplished by killing Raven, the reason for the plan in the first place.  Plan A was supposed to be accomplished by just killing Elliot.  I am thinking we don't really understand what Voltaire's true goals are, and perhaps Pandora has other goals in mind that we don't know about as well.

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4 hours ago, Tuscahoma said:

Perhaps plan CM will work without Elliot's death.  

When Voltaire brought it up, he said something like, "Well, Elliot is still alive, so plan B is still on the table."  To me, the "so" implies that plan B, aka plan CM, requires Elliot to be alive.

Quote

Preventing Magus from coming back just means killing Elliot OR Ellen.  

Oooh....that is an *evil* thought!  (This is the point where an old writing group of mine would have chimed in with a collective, "Yay, evil!" because we'd found that the best ideas were almost always evil ideas....)

2 hours ago, Darkxemjas said:

Loopholes. Can't live with them. Can't live without them.......

In Elliot's case, the danger is definitely that he perhaps can't live with them.

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Just now, CritterKeeper said:

When Voltaire brought it up, he said something like, "Well, Elliot is still alive, so plan B is still on the table."  To me, the "so" implies that plan B, aka plan CM, requires Elliot to be alive.

Voltaire also said "Plan A would have gotten the job done with one murder." which implied that whatever goal Voltaire was trying to achieve, killing Elliot would have been enough to get the desired effect. Plan B or CM would imply possibly murdering multiple people.

I get the feeling that Plan A was trying to use a sniper rifle to take out a specific target, Plan CM is grabbing the machine gun and spraying a crowded room. Whatever Sirleck's going to do, sounds like it's going to do a fair lot of damage and casualties and there's a good chance the Main Eight will be in the middle of it.

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September 23, 2016, Voltaire said:

Any immortal who considers THAT a loophole has a screw loose.

This makes me wonder about the mental stability of the other immortals Edward has encountered.

Or is Edward's knowledge of Immortals limited to what Adrian has told him?

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22 minutes ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

This makes me wonder about the mental stability of the other immortals Edward has encountered.

Or is Edward's knowledge of Immortals limited to what Adrian has told him?

Considering after the initial encounter with Pandora in the woods, Edward states that he's going to "enlist in the assistance of friends" and that "there's a reason he knows so much about Immortals", I'm thinking that those "friends" are Immortals, I still want to say that it's Helena and Demetrius, because it would make sense why they would have been following Nanase to France and why they're watching Elliot, but I'm not entirely sure since Elliot probably has mention them appearing at the mall already and Edward would have said something. So either they're not the "friends" or they haven't gotten around to mention their involvement yet.

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4 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

Oooh....that is an *evil* thought!  (This is the point where an old writing group of mine would have chimed in with a collective, "Yay, evil!" because we'd found that the best ideas were almost always evil ideas....)

I'll share this with my wife. She heartily endorses this concept. :)

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46 minutes ago, Scotty said:
1 hour ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

This makes me wonder about the mental stability of the other immortals Edward has encountered.

Or is Edward's knowledge of Immortals limited to what Adrian has told him?

Considering after the initial encounter with Pandora in the woods, Edward states that he's going to "enlist in the assistance of friends" and that "there's a reason he knows so much about Immortals", I'm thinking that those "friends" are Immortals, I still want to say that it's Helena and Demetrius, because it would make sense why they would have been following Nanase to France and why they're watching Elliot, but I'm not entirely sure since Elliot probably has mention them appearing at the mall already and Edward would have said something. So either they're not the "friends" or they haven't gotten around to mention their involvement yet.

The friends MIGHT actually be Adrian ... except Adrian would likely tell him more (I would expect he would recognize his mother child form by description) ...

47 minutes ago, Scotty said:

I still want to say that it's Helena and Demetrius

It WAS Helena and Demetrius would be more correct. The timeline fits: he might still have contact with them at time of encounter with Pandora, but then lost them when they reset.

3 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

Notice that Edward knows that it's Voltaire's interpretation of Immortal law is all that counts for him.

Yup. LOT of inside info ...

3 hours ago, Scotty said:
4 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

When Voltaire brought it up, he said something like, "Well, Elliot is still alive, so plan B is still on the table."  To me, the "so" implies that plan B, aka plan CM, requires Elliot to be alive.

Voltaire also said "Plan A would have gotten the job done with one murder." which implied that whatever goal Voltaire was trying to achieve, killing Elliot would have been enough to get the desired effect. Plan B or CM would imply possibly murdering multiple people.

I get the feeling that Plan A was trying to use a sniper rifle to take out a specific target, Plan CM is grabbing the machine gun and spraying a crowded room. Whatever Sirleck's going to do, sounds like it's going to do a fair lot of damage and casualties and there's a good chance the Main Eight will be in the middle of it.

While they MAY end up in the middle of it, I don't think the plan actually REQUIRES that.

9 hours ago, Tuscahoma said:

Preventing Magus from coming back just means killing Elliot OR Ellen. 

Or, you know, Magus.

9 hours ago, Tuscahoma said:

I am thinking we don't really understand what Voltaire's true goals are, and perhaps Pandora has other goals in mind that we don't know about as well.

Note that the assumption that VOLTAIRE understand what Pandora goals are might also be unwarranted.

15 hours ago, chridd said:

Or he could break the vow and deal with the consequences.  If the consequences are the same as breaking immortal law, then they include all immortals knowing why he did what he did, and if he truly believes what he's doing is for the greater good and that other immortals will find his reasons convincing, he might see that as a positive (i.e., he has to reset, but not only does he get another chance to kill Elliot, but he also gets to tell every immortal why killing Elliot is necessary to stop Pandora's plan and how evil Pandora's plan is (or whatever he believes) in a way where it's potentially harder to lie and therefore more believable).

Plan like this would be likely suicide. First, Pandora herself might be enough to reset him if breaking immortal law provided her the channel. Second, there totally will be some immortals who will reset him on principle no matter how convincing his greater good is. Third, I don't think it would be actually that convincing.

Of course, he MAY consider suicide plan if he only wants to stop Pandora and if this would actually stop Pandora even without him "alive" ...

16 hours ago, partner555 said:

Ok, this vow looks more robust, but I'm sure Voltaire will try something.

He seems genuinely surprised there was loophole in that. Either he have that "already did" loophole, or he really doesn't need Elliot killed anymore.

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15 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

The friends MIGHT actually be Adrian ... except Adrian would likely tell him more (I would expect he would recognize his mother child form by description) ...

Except Edward and Adrian would have had their falling out years before Edward mentions the friends, so I don't think he would have given Adrian a second thought about it. And considering Adrian hadn't seen his mother for 14 years prior to her visit in the hospitial, it would appear he did not have knowledge of her appearance in the forest a couple years earlier.

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8 minutes ago, Scotty said:
29 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

The friends MIGHT actually be Adrian ... except Adrian would likely tell him more (I would expect he would recognize his mother child form by description) ...

Except Edward and Adrian would have had their falling out years before Edward mentions the friends, so I don't think he would have given Adrian a second thought about it.

It might still be him. Although ... he might contacted him, BUT he wouldn't call him friend at that point, probably.

I agree it's unlikely, but still possible.

9 minutes ago, Scotty said:

And considering Adrian hadn't seen his mother for 14 years prior to her visit in the hospitial, it would appear he did not have knowledge of her appearance in the forest a couple years earlier.

Hearing about where she was is not exactly seeing her.

And I doubt it was first time she used that form in all those centuries Adrian is alive.

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1 hour ago, Scotty said:

I'm thinking that those "friends" are Immortals, I still want to say that it's Helena and Demetrius,

I, of course, reject this idea by reflex, due to my oft stated rant about not all "new" characters needing to be an existing character.  Not saying it's impossible, just unlikely.

This may explain why my favorite web comics1 not only have large casts, members get added or drop out over the course of the comic.

1 EGS, The Whiteboard, QC, Grrl Power, Something Positive, Girl Genius.

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1 minute ago, hkmaly said:

Hearing about where she was is not exactly seeing her.

What I was trying to say, was Adrian hasn't given any indication that he's aware of any other plots Pandora was involved in prior to her announcement to him that she was going to "destroy the world" for him, and I still believe that the energy clog was created shortly after that and that whole plan is completely separate from Pandora's "egg" announcement 2 years earlier, the "egg" was something Pandora decided to do out of boredom, helping Adrian was a new focus for her.

 

4 minutes ago, mlooney said:

I, of course, reject this idea by reflex, due to my oft stated rant about not all "new" characters needing to be an existing character.  Not saying it's impossible, just unlikely.

Yeah, but when there's are existing characters with very vague backstories, it makes one wonder how they fit into the story, Helena and Demetrius are such characters, we have no idea why they are watching over Elliot, why they were in France possibly following Nanase or Susan, how they were reset, etc. They're important to the story, but we don't know why, Edward's mention of "friends" could be the only hint we have.

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1 minute ago, Scotty said:

They're important to the story, but we don't know why, Edward's mention of "friends" could be the only hint we have.

Possibly, but I'm going to stick to my "it's a new character until proven otherwise" stance.

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If there's any Immortal that Edward actually knows, it would most likely be Pandora. I've also noticed that Edward was not surprised at all to see her when she appeared to Cranium and Wolf. And he hesitates a bit before he says "...is an Immortal", maybe because he was about to say her name.

However, because of his strained relationship with Adrian, Edward might not know that Adrian suspects Pandora was manipulating Dex. Right now only Sarah might know what Pandora has been up to, and she's been warned not to trust Edward with secrets. 

Anyway, given Edward's established secretive nature, I guess The Shive might justify just about any rabbit he pulls from his hat or wherever, but Pandora's the only Immortal we have been shown who has any hint of a previous relationship with Edward.

 

Edited by Tom Sewell
Clarification

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13 minutes ago, mlooney said:

Possibly, but I'm going to stick to my "it's a new character until proven otherwise" stance.

I also think it might be telling that the scene goes from Edward talking about enlisting friends immediately to Pandora taunting Magus about being "sent off running by forgetful fools".

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1 hour ago, Scotty said:
1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Hearing about where she was is not exactly seeing her.

What I was trying to say, was Adrian hasn't given any indication that he's aware of any other plots Pandora was involved in prior to her announcement to him that she was going to "destroy the world" for him, and I still believe that the energy clog was created shortly after that and that whole plan is completely separate from Pandora's "egg" announcement 2 years earlier, the "egg" was something Pandora decided to do out of boredom, helping Adrian was a new focus for her.

Helping Adrian was ALWAYS her focus :) - I mean, since Blaike's dead.

And remember: there was more energy in Moperville that it should be for MOST of Tedd's live. I think she created the clog shortly after parting with Adrian.

37 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

If there's any Immortal that Edward actually knows, it would most likely be Pandora. I've also noticed that Edward was not surprised at all to see her when she appeared to Cranium and Wolf. And he hesitates a bit before he says "...is an Immortal", maybe because he was about to say her name.

If he would KNOW it's Pandora he would certainly contact Adrian. And given he mentioned friendS - plural - it could've only be Pandora AND Adrian, there is noone else around Pandora.

Meanwhile, knowing ANY immortals would be enough to explain why he wasn't surprised. And that hesitation might've been him being dramatic.

I currently see three options possible:

1) Adrian and Pandora

2) Helena and Demetrius

3) someone new

and frankly, Adrian and Pandora doesn't seem most likely from those options.

Hmmm ... there is technically possible he would know Jerry, but that wouldn't explain "friends" unless Jerry have some currently unknown "partner".

 

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