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Story Wednesday October 12, 2016

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1 hour ago, ijuin said:
2 hours ago, PSadlon said:

Crazy in a really not emotionally stable sense but not in a mentally incapable of distinguish reality from fantasy or axe crazy sense. It is a sense of crazy with which I am well to familiar.

Pandora definitely has very rapid and frequent mood swings, as evidenced by her doing the "monster face" thing for single panels in the middle of a conversation.

I would say her tantrum with four version of her child form running around is the more crazy-looking example ...

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

I suspect that 200 years is merely a guideline that Immortals agreed is an optimum time to reset, and that there isn't an actual hard rule that Immortals HAVE to reset at 200

Of course it's not hard limit. It's just statistics. Statistically speaking, for immortals older than 200 the risk of being crazy is too high. But that doesn't say anything about any individual.

Pandora is extremely bored and can do very crazy things to entertain herself, but she seems to be relatively stable and always aware how much crazy thing she's doing.

5 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

You could have the Fairydoll Squad, making the little buggers all over the place: Dex, Nanase, and Susan can all make them.

They all can make fairies, but only Nanase's fairies have permanence.

5 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

Nanase and Ellen use their magic enough everyday that being burned out after using the Guardian form might even mean they used less magic overall, taking Guardian form briefly and then using no magic after, than they would have if they'd just kept using magic normally instead.

I think if they go angel and fly all around Moperville for whole day, it would burn more magic than they can burn otherwise in TWO days, and possibly more than Sarah. But ... somehow I doubt it would be possible to do that covertly, AND it would interfere with their normal lives, AND we are not sure if they can fly whole day even with enough magic. Meanwhile, Sarah can cast the spell while doing other stuff.

6 hours ago, PSadlon said:

Also note that she freely and without outside prompting set not one but two pretty comprehensive vows upon herself which didn't have any obvious loophole.

I was very surprised that she addressed several possible loopholes without Sarah asking for it, in fact without Sarah being aware how big deal vows are (she only knows about Jerry's vow). It speaks a lot about how serious she is with this.

11 hours ago, Scotty said:

Yeah Dan did say the story arc would span the week, but yeah I did speculate that "hell raining down on Moperville" could take place when the wizard attempts to remove the clog, although Pandora didn't say that Sarah needed to go around Moperville using her spell, so it makes me wonder if Sarah using her spell would create a temporary vacuum around her so instead of magic trying to flow towards the clog, it'll flow towards her to fill the gap, and if the flow of magic can't keep up with the number of casts per hour...I guess the analogy for that would be Sarah drinking from a bowl of water through a straw with a slight trickle from the tap filling the bowl, and so Sarah would drain the bowl faster than magic can fill it.

Yes, the "not need to move" is interesting ... apparently magic flows fast enough that it can fill the hole she makes with her spell in 15 minutes, as Pandora didn't even said "do a few steps between the casts". That's slower than "almost immediately" as water would do, but faster than I expected. (Technically, maybe it flows even faster and that limit is related to how fast can Sarah cast it, but we know that after using up magic around apartment it took some time to recover.)

11 hours ago, Scotty said:

I wonder if Sarah will ask Pandora more questions about her

I wonder if Pandora will answer. Because there is nothing in her vow about answering personal questions.

13 hours ago, ijuin said:

By the way, Pandora hasn't yet told Sarah what to call her yet, has she? She might give her name, or she might give a nickname, or she might simply ask to be addressed by a title, such as "Sensei" or equivalent.

... that sounds like something Sarah SHOULD ask :)

13 hours ago, ijuin said:

Hmm, a week or so, huh? It may be the case that by the time Tara and Andrea return (four weeks), the Energy Clog may already be removed . . .

We don't know how fast the wizard will work, but yes, seems that way.

17 hours ago, mlooney said:

Every thing we thought was her, other than the random markings, was Kentucky Fried Immortal.

She did helped with Abraham attack instead of preventing it. Depending on how solid her precognition is, you can say that she put both Adrian and Ellen into danger, in fact even Nanase ... or you can say that she predicted it will end well so there was no danger from her point of view. Both sounds crazy, but neither is evil and the second may not even actually BE crazy.

17 hours ago, mlooney said:

And once pointed out the error of her ways she changed. 

That sounds like someone explained to her it was bad and she stopped. No. She stopped because she realized it wouldn't work. She still considers giving random people marks without their knowledge fun.

Again: depending on how good her precognition is and how much she "screens" people before giving them marks, this may be crazily irresponsible in same way as giving small children fireworks, or, well, perfectly safe and even saving lives (Rhoda would likely be dead without her spell.)

 

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16 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

I wonder if Pandora will answer. Because there is nothing in her vow about answering personal questions.

No, Pandora isn't obligated to answer, that much was evident when Sarah asked her how old she was and she only vaguely answered with the "299 for a few centuries" line. but considering Pandora is taking Sarah under her wing as an apprentice rather that someone that could potentially give amusement, Pandora may be more forthcoming with information.

Pandora may even come to think that passing along as much of her knowledge to Sarah might be more fulfilling than trying to save knowledge for her next incarnation if she does finally decide to reset. Yeah, big if, but working with Sarah could take years still unless something happens to Pandora.

33 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

That sounds like someone explained to her it was bad and she stopped. No. She stopped because she realized it wouldn't work. She still considers giving random people marks without their knowledge fun.

She hasn't had time to mark anyone since her revelation about magic, so it's a question of if she'll consider marking more people, it's very likely though that if they are successful in fixing the energy situation, then her chances of being able to find someone with sufficient power to be marked will be significantly lower so she wouldn't find it worth the trouble.

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1 hour ago, Scotty said:
2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

I wonder if Pandora will answer. Because there is nothing in her vow about answering personal questions.

No, Pandora isn't obligated to answer, that much was evident when Sarah asked her how old she was and she only vaguely answered with the "299 for a few centuries" line. but considering Pandora is taking Sarah under her wing as an apprentice rather that someone that could potentially give amusement, Pandora may be more forthcoming with information.

Pandora may even come to think that passing along as much of her knowledge to Sarah might be more fulfilling than trying to save knowledge for her next incarnation if she does finally decide to reset. Yeah, big if, but working with Sarah could take years still unless something happens to Pandora.

I don't believe Pandora will start planing her reset. More likely, her reset will come as surprise.

The question about Adrian is especially dangerous because it will be hard to talk about him freely without mentioning he's in Moperville or something which makes Sarah realize that. And she may not want Sarah talking with Adrian ...

1 hour ago, Scotty said:
2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

That sounds like someone explained to her it was bad and she stopped. No. She stopped because she realized it wouldn't work. She still considers giving random people marks without their knowledge fun.

She hasn't had time to mark anyone since her revelation about magic, so it's a question of if she'll consider marking more people, it's very likely though that if they are successful in fixing the energy situation, then her chances of being able to find someone with sufficient power to be marked will be significantly lower so she wouldn't find it worth the trouble.

I wasn't saying she WILL mark more people. She might be reluctant to do so because of the fear of magic change. But she will still not see any other problem with it.

(I still hope Ashley will overcome her goodness-induced block on transformation magic and Pandora will mark her.)

And, actually, you barely need any power to be marked. Susan was marked in France with likely zero magic (although she DID had affinity). Pandora might no longer be able to give marks for "big" spells like Sarah got - or she might mark the person but the person will never cast the spell because not enough magic - but most people get mark spell which is EASY to cast.

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1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

The question about Adrian is especially dangerous because it will be hard to talk about him freely without mentioning he's in Moperville or something which makes Sarah realize that. And she may not want Sarah talking with Adrian ...

Pandora knows that Grace, Ellen, Nanase and Justin are being taught by Adrian, she also likely knows that he's taken special interest in them. The chance of Susan, Elliot and Sarah meeting Adrian is inevitable likely because of Sirleck sending vampires at him.

Hmm...I know Adrian is Tedd's god father, but apparently Tedd doesn't know that, it was evident when Grace told Tedd about her and Adrian going out to take care of the boar, obviously Tedd was too young to remember Adrian.

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

And, actually, you barely need any power to be marked. Susan was marked in France with likely zero magic (although she DID had affinity). Pandora might no longer be able to give marks for "big" spells like Sarah got - or she might mark the person but the person will never cast the spell because not enough magic - but most people get mark spell which is EASY to cast.

Looking at my comment, I did word it wrong. What I meant was, yeah she could mark people, but there's no sense doing so if they can't actually cast the spell because they don't have the power to do so and the chances of finding people with sufficient power to cast the spells she gives would be lower. In Susan's case, France was likely one of those areas in the world where ambient energy was high enough for Susan to cast her spell, but if Moperville didn't have the higher than normal energy levels even before the clog people like maybe Rhoda and Catalina wouldn't have been able to cast their spells.

Catalina and Rhoda aren't likely in danger of losing the ability to use their spells if the clog is fixed (though they would if the system still changes) since Catalina's had 3 months to play with her spell, and Rhoda's had roughly 8 months (depending on when she realized she had a spell) so they would have built up some of their own magic power.

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On October 12, 2016 at 0:51 PM, Vorlonagent said:

You could have the Fairydoll Squad, making the little buggers all over the place: Dex, Nanase, and Susan can all make them.

We really don't know a lot about the fairydolls.  

We know almost nothing about Dex's fairy friend, whether he can vary her appearance, whether she leaves a doll behind, whether he can inhabit her, etc.  We do also know that, when he has access to enough power, Dex can summon much larger and more varied creatures, several at a time, such as the firemen and the bulldog dragon.  We don't know if he can summon anything bigger or more numerous, without that power boost. It's quite possible he could summon an army, or at least a platoon; we just don't know yet one way or another.  (We do also know he's a nice enough guy he probably wouldn't.)  Hmm, and now I have a mental image of Dex creating animate miniatures for the gaming group he's in with Greg....

We know Nanase can only summon one at a time, in first-person perspective which leaves her body vulnerable, and when she returns to her body an inanimate doll that looks like Nanase is left behind.  Nanase can return to a previous doll, in fact she has little control over what doll she inhabits under many circumstances.  Her fairydoll self can scry her emptybody, and can punch with the force of her And she recently gained the ability to modify the clothing the doll appears in.

We know Susan can summon multiple fairy dolls, but they probably have to be based on one of the old fairydolls in her chest.  Her dolls can act on her subconscious and give her some limited sensory feedback, or they can be controlled first-person like Nanase's, possibly with variations between these two extremes.  They'll vanish quietly if left alone, or explode if unsummoned early.

So, any fairydoll squadron would be quite the mixed bag.

On October 12, 2016 at 0:54 PM, RainbowWizard said:

Given the circumstances, the closest equivalent is Dresden becoming the Winter Knight.

Ooh, please tell me they have a similar method of "sealing the deal"!!!  ;-)

19 hours ago, Scotty said:

working with Sarah could take years still unless something happens to Pandora.

This makes it even more likely Pandora will come along to college with the gang, possibly as Sarah's roommate!  We do know a vow persists even through a reset, so it could well be a much younger Pandora helping Sarah develop her magic.

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52 minutes ago, CritterKeeper said:

We know almost nothing about Dex's fairy friend, whether he can vary her appearance, whether she leaves a doll behind, whether he can inhabit her, etc.  We do also know that, when he has access to enough power, Dex can summon much larger and more varied creatures, several at a time, such as the firemen and the bulldog dragon.  We don't know if he can summon anything bigger or more numerous, without that power boost. It's quite possible he could summon an army, or at least a platoon; we just don't know yet one way or another.  (We do also know he's a nice enough guy he probably wouldn't.)  Hmm, and now I have a mental image of Dex creating animate miniatures for the gaming group he's in with Greg....

Dex's fairy was still active when last we saw Dex during the New and Old Flames arc so yeah, we don't know what would happen is Dex unsummoned her rather than let the clock on her run out. Considering Elliot causing the bloodgrem to unsummon had a similar effect as Susan unsummoning Nase the first time, it probably is common for summons to do that and so we could expect Dex's fairy to have the same effect if unsummoning before it's duration ends. As for leaving behind a doll, that feature is apparently very rare according to Andrea and apparently only those with very strong ties to magic in their family can do that. The chance of Dex having that connection is very low though maybe not absolutely zero. As for inhabiting the fairy, there's a good chance he could once he's awakened, Susan's fairy spell originally started as a glitch based on mixing her mark spell with Nanase's fairy doll before her awakening, she was still able to exploit the glitch after awakening and did so enough that the glitch became a permanent feature as was apparent during the Playing With Dolls NP, the fairy summon became it's own spell and included several extras like being able to summon multiples and going full first person mode with one. It's quite possible that Dex's fairy spell and Susan's are the same spell, just Dex's has the basic level 1 version because he hasn't awakened yet.

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So, any fairydoll squadron would be quite the mixed bag.

Which means other people don't know just what to expect of any given fairydoll.

Which is a good thing, in combat.

Imagine: slice a fairydoll in half, it falls in pieces on the ground. Slice another one in half, it falls in pieces on the ground. Slice a third in half, BOOM! you're flat on your ass, stunned, and can't hear very well. You cautiously poke at a fourth fairydoll, and it throws a punch that breaks your sword. Maybe it's time for a different approach?

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1 hour ago, CritterKeeper said:

We know almost nothing about Dex's fairy friend, whether he can vary her appearance, whether she leaves a doll behind, whether he can inhabit her, etc.  We do also know that, when he has access to enough power, Dex can summon much larger and more varied creatures, several at a time, such as the firemen and the bulldog dragon.  We don't know if he can summon anything bigger or more numerous, without that power boost. It's quite possible he could summon an army, or at least a platoon; we just don't know yet one way or another.  (We do also know he's a nice enough guy he probably wouldn't.)  Hmm, and now I have a mental image of Dex creating animate miniatures for the gaming group he's in with Greg....

There are things I think are implied and things that are stated about Dex.  Dex is Marked.  He has one spell. The fairydoll spell.  Under Voltaire's empowerment and guidance, Dex was able to warp what should have been a fairydoll summon into a fireguy summon or a bulldog-dragon summon. 

That should tell you if it is possible to change Dex' fairydoll.  Yes it is.  What we don't know is how much change Dex knows how to do and if he has access to the power needed to make changes.  My guess would be that Dex ought be able to learn how to do simple color and body shape morphs with his doll.  No fireguys or dragons for Dex unless he awakens and gets spells that summon those things.  I'd argue that it would take a hellaciously lot more power to warp a fairdoll into a fireguy than what a "summon fireguy" spell would need.

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7 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

There are things I think are implied and things that are stated about Dex.  Dex is Marked.  He has one spell. The fairydoll spell.  Under Voltaire's empowerment and guidance, Dex was able to warp what should have been a fairydoll summon into a fireguy summon or a bulldog-dragon summon. 

That should tell you if it is possible to change Dex' fairydoll.  Yes it is.  What we don't know is how much change Dex knows how to do and if he has access to the power needed to make changes.  My guess would be that Dex ought be able to learn how to do simple color and body shape morphs with his doll.  No fireguys or dragons for Dex unless he awakens and gets spells that summon those things.  I'd argue that it would take a hellaciously lot more power to warp a fairdoll into a fireguy than what a "summon fireguy" spell would need.

Dex's spell could simply be a "Summon X" spell where X could be anything summonable. It's just that at Dex's level, without an Immortal pumping extra energy into him, the fairy is all he is able to summon. Yes, if Dex awakens, he'll eventually learn to summon other entities as his power allows, but as Noah said, it's the same spell.

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19 hours ago, Scotty said:
20 hours ago, hkmaly said:

The question about Adrian is especially dangerous because it will be hard to talk about him freely without mentioning he's in Moperville or something which makes Sarah realize that. And she may not want Sarah talking with Adrian ...

Pandora knows that Grace, Ellen, Nanase and Justin are being taught by Adrian, she also likely knows that he's taken special interest in them. The chance of Susan, Elliot and Sarah meeting Adrian is inevitable likely because of Sirleck sending vampires at him.

Pandora doesn't know about Sirleck sending vampires at him yet. Also, maybe she only doesn't want Sarah talking with Adrian ABOUT HER.

19 hours ago, Scotty said:

Hmm...I know Adrian is Tedd's god father, but apparently Tedd doesn't know that, it was evident when Grace told Tedd about her and Adrian going out to take care of the boar, obviously Tedd was too young to remember Adrian.

Remembering the sound of "monster" is easier than remembering person. Also, did Tedd SAW Adrian? It's possible he would recognize him by look.

19 hours ago, Scotty said:

Looking at my comment, I did word it wrong. What I meant was, yeah she could mark people, but there's no sense doing so if they can't actually cast the spell because they don't have the power to do so and the chances of finding people with sufficient power to cast the spells she gives would be lower.

True.

19 hours ago, Scotty said:

In Susan's case, France was likely one of those areas in the world where ambient energy was high enough for Susan to cast her spell

Why do you think so? I mean, technically true, but it's possible Susan's spell is easy enough for her to cast it anywhere. Again, spells which can't be cast by dreaming person anywhere are RARE as mark-spells.

19 hours ago, Scotty said:

people like maybe Rhoda and Catalina wouldn't have been able to cast their spells.

I think they would. Possibly Rhoda wouldn't be able to resize the boar THAT much, but neither spell looks like requiring lot of energy.

2 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

We know almost nothing about Dex's fairy friend, whether he can vary her appearance, whether she leaves a doll behind, whether he can inhabit her, etc.  We do also know that, when he has access to enough power, Dex can summon much larger and more varied creatures, several at a time, such as the firemen and the bulldog dragon.  We don't know if he can summon anything bigger or more numerous, without that power boost. It's quite possible he could summon an army, or at least a platoon; we just don't know yet one way or another.  (We do also know he's a nice enough guy he probably wouldn't.)  Hmm, and now I have a mental image of Dex creating animate miniatures for the gaming group he's in with Greg....

Yes, we don't know. However, it's more likely there is no persistence, BECAUSE persistence is hard. So, no doll. Inhabiting, maybe with enough training, Susan also wasn't aware of this aspect. And yes: without power boost, he probably can't summon anything bigger, but he might still be able to summon a platoon of something small AND using this power for creating animated miniatures actually looks like something he can do even as nice enough guy.

2 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

We know Susan can summon multiple fairy dolls, but they probably have to be based on one of the old fairydolls in her chest.  Her dolls can act on her subconscious and give her some limited sensory feedback, or they can be controlled first-person like Nanase's, possibly with variations between these two extremes.  They'll vanish quietly if left alone, or explode if unsummoned early.

Any case where she is asking the doll to bring her something is something between those extremes.

2 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:
22 hours ago, Scotty said:

working with Sarah could take years still unless something happens to Pandora.

This makes it even more likely Pandora will come along to college with the gang, possibly as Sarah's roommate!  We do know a vow persists even through a reset, so it could well be a much younger Pandora helping Sarah develop her magic.

It would definitely take her longer if she will be reset.

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

It's quite possible that Dex's fairy spell and Susan's are the same spell, just Dex's has the basic level 1 version because he hasn't awakened yet.

No, it isn't, because Dex doesn't have any "model" for the fairy. There are lot of similarities, but that may be more something like those spells using same "library" (in the programming sense).

19 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

There are things I think are implied and things that are stated about Dex.  Dex is Marked.  He has one spell. The fairydoll spell.  Under Voltaire's empowerment and guidance, Dex was able to warp what should have been a fairydoll summon into a fireguy summon or a bulldog-dragon summon. 

That should tell you if it is possible to change Dex' fairydoll.  Yes it is.  What we don't know is how much change Dex knows how to do and if he has access to the power needed to make changes.  My guess would be that Dex ought be able to learn how to do simple color and body shape morphs with his doll.  No fireguys or dragons for Dex unless he awakens and gets spells that summon those things.  I'd argue that it would take a hellaciously lot more power to warp a fairdoll into a fireguy than what a "summon fireguy" spell would need.

Agree with start but not end. First, it's not only about awakening. With training and resulting increase of power, Dex is able to do more modifications. Maybe he wasn't able to change hairstyle on first try, but now he might be already able to summon the doll with dragon wings or maybe make her look like in flames.

If there is no fixed list of thinks to summon, I see no reason why summoning fireguy with separate spell would be easier. Susan can summon ANYTHING from her chest. Of course, separate fireguy spell might have other advantages, like being actually in fire. The thing which explain biggest part of power requirements of fairydoll and fireguy is SIZE.

 

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21 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Dex's spell could simply be a "Summon X" spell where X could be anything summonable. It's just that at Dex's level, without an Immortal pumping extra energy into him, the fairy is all he is able to summon. Yes, if Dex awakens, he'll eventually learn to summon other entities as his power allows, but as Noah said, it's the same spell.

"Could be".   That's a lot to pull out of a Mark  Especially one so clearly marked "Hi, I summon Fairydolls".  I'd argue that the metaphysics of summoning a fairydoll are identical to those needed to summon a fireguy or bulldog-dragon, but I don't think summons are a one-spell-fits-all thing.  I acknowledge the possibility, but don't buy it.

18 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Agree with start but not end. First, it's not only about awakening. With training and resulting increase of power, Dex is able to do more modifications. Maybe he wasn't able to change hairstyle on first try, but now he might be already able to summon the doll with dragon wings or maybe make her look like in flames.

I'd argue there are minor changes and major changes  and the two have different requirements.  A minor change would be things like colors or hairstyles.  A summon with hair has to have a style of some kind and a summon with clothing has to have some kind of color to the clothes, so altering from default would be fairly close to effortless.  You just have to want to make the change happen  A major change would be something like scaling the fairydoll to human-size.  You're warping the spell's intended output much more severely with a commensurate power cost.  We're really close to agreeing since I am acknowledging that there's a definite spectrum from hairstyle changes to having a cold-fire body.  What I'm saying is there's only so much change you get for free or even for minimal cost and fireguys and bulldog-dragons are a couple miles past that.

29 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

If there is no fixed list of thinks to summon, I see no reason why summoning fireguy with separate spell would be easier. Susan can summon ANYTHING from her chest. Of course, separate fireguy spell might have other advantages, like being actually in fire. The thing which explain biggest part of power requirements of fairydoll and fireguy is SIZE.

Agreed on size, but not just size, but also weaponry.  Both the fireguys and the bulldog-dragon had a spell of their own, letting them breathe fireballs.  Dex' fairydoll has nothing comparable.  I'd argue that adding a non-default spell to a summon should cost a bit as well.

I'd argue that warping a fairdoll into a firegy should cost more for the same reason it takes more effort to write a sentence, then edit the words to make it say something else.  Writing out a fireguy to start with is simpler and easier.

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3 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

No, it isn't, because Dex doesn't have any "model" for the fairy. There are lot of similarities, but that may be more something like those spells using same "library" (in the programming sense).

I'm not talking about marked Susan here, marked Susan's ability to summon Nase was due to a a glitch with her spell being able to summon anything that's place in a marked container, post awakening, it's apparent that it evolved into a separate spell that's likely the same as Dex's but because Susan's got more experience with magic, her spell has more features.

Magic as far as I can tell tailors itself to the person, what spells they get being based on personality and probably a bunch of other factors, but I think spells have a basic function that's initially the same for everyone but as each person builds their power and gains experience, the spells evolve based on how they're used like a skill tree in an MMORPG, one spell may even augment or be augmented by another spell. The summon spell for instance, at its base level, one can only summon a fairy because it's small, and has limited use, that's what Dex has. For Susan, she didn't get the fairy version initially, but she did have a summon spell based on her affinity, so she had experience with summoning things, she also had the ability to summon the hammers, which she used frequently enough and could summon multiple hammers simultaneously. When she did discover she could summon Nanase's doll from the chest, she summoned Nase quite frequently, she even admitted that when Nase unsummons on her own, she resummons her.

When the time came for Susan to gain a new spell, she likely ended up with the summon spell that Dex has, but augmented based on how she originally summoned the fairy as well as how she used other spells, Tedd did say that Susan's spell was "a spell within a spell" so it would make sense that the initial "summon things I have in a box" lead to an offshoot spell for the fairy. Being able to summon multiple fairies might come from her being able to summon multiple hammers or maybe it just comes from having enough power to do so, being able to go first person mode with a fairy would come from the fact that Susan got her peanut butter in Nanase's chocolate.

Susan seems content with being able to summon fairies so would probably not learn to summon other creatures, but she would likely gain more fairy features. Dex, if he awakens, could also stick with the fairy because of what happened at the dojo, or he could experiment with summoning other creatures, maybe even summon the equivalent of Fox.

5 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

"Could be".   That's a lot to pull out of a Mark  Especially one so clearly marked "Hi, I summon Fairydolls".  I'd argue that the metaphysics of summoning a fairydoll are identical to those needed to summon a fireguy or bulldog-dragon, but I don't think summons are a one-spell-fits-all thing.  I acknowledge the possibility, but don't buy it.

I'm not basing that on Dex's mark, the mark could have been anything and the spell wouldn't be different, Dex could have been playing Legend of Celida and thinking it'd be awesome if he had a fairy companion, when Pandora marked him (or Voltaire marked him, it hasn't been confirmed who actually marked Dex, just that Voltaire manipulated him), the mark was made a fairy because it was convenient to what Dex yearned. If it wasn't a "one spell fits all" thing, Dex being able to summon the fire golems and bulldog dragon wouldn't work regardless of how much power was being pumped into him for the simple fact that marks only allow a person access to one spell only, and what you said would basically amount to 3 separate summoning spells, Summon Fairy, Summon Fire Golem, Summon Dragon.

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1 minute ago, Scotty said:

I'm not basing that on Dex's mark, the mark could have been anything and the spell wouldn't be different, Dex could have been playing Legend of Celida and thinking it'd be awesome if he had a fairy companion, when Pandora marked him (or Voltaire marked him, it hasn't been confirmed who actually marked Dex, just that Voltaire manipulated him), the mark was made a fairy because it was convenient to what Dex yearned. If it wasn't a "one spell fits all" thing, Dex being able to summon the fire golems and bulldog dragon wouldn't work regardless of how much power was being pumped into him for the simple fact that marks only allow a person access to one spell only, and what you said would basically amount to 3 separate summoning spells, Summon Fairy, Summon Fire Golem, Summon Dragon.

Agreed that the Mark need not be definitive.  It could be a random blob.  But we can't ignore the fact that it *is* definitive.  The Mark accurately represents what Dex can do with it. 

What I'm saying is that spells in EGS are innately changeable.  The process by which a summon manifests is the same, but change the template fro what you're manifesting and you'll change the result.  But changing the template takes power.  The new result may have power demands of its own.  We know when Ellen pushed her FV5 beam against Vllad, she turned him completely human in a way her spell shouldn't have been able to do.  Extra power behind the effect warped the result.  Same thing with taking a fiardoll summon that only summons fairydolls and warping it to summon a fireguy or dragon.  That is what I am saying.

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3 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

What I'm saying is that spells in EGS are innately changeable.  The process by which a summon manifests is the same, but change the template fro what you're manifesting and you'll change the result.  But changing the template takes power.  The new result may have power demands of its own.  We know when Ellen pushed her FV5 beam against Vllad, she turned him completely human in a way her spell shouldn't have been able to do.  Extra power behind the effect warped the result.  Same thing with taking a fiardoll summon that only summons fairydolls and warping it to summon a fireguy or dragon.  That is what I am saying.

Ellen also has multiple beams, and the beam that transformed Vlad into Vladia could have resulted in the "Amped Up" variant, aside from the "Copy" beam, all of Ellen's other beams (normal, amped up, rapid fire) all share the same basic function, which is to transform someone into an FV5 version of themselves, so that would technically make them the same spell just using different amounts of energy. It's likely we'll never see Ellen fire the same level of beam she hit Vlad with because it was extremely situational, there was very strong emotions, urgency, and likely flair for the dramatic played a part in it as well, and it probably used a lot of energy to cast, whether Ellen could have done that again if Hedge or Guineas tried anything is uncertain, Ellen was pretty fired up at that moment and flair for the dramatic might have allowed it had Grace not interrupted.

We've seen other spells evolve and add features, Nanase's fairy avatar had 3 of it's own abilities that were added as she used the base spell and the base spell itself updated to include appearance customization. Elliot's Superhero form apparently didn't have the ability to merge with whatever was in Elliot's pockets nor had appearance customization beyond face and hair when him and Ellen first read about it, though I guess it could be harder to confirm considering Elliot's lack of reading his spell book, but it still appears to have evolved with use.

I don't see why the summon spell can't be similar. Of course it would require more energy to summon larger and more complex entities, Nanase's Fox spell for instance is a summon that requires a lot of energy but also is semi autonomous and can cast spells as well as long as the spell doesn't deplete the summon. I'm just saying that the summon spell needs to start somewhere, and my experience with magic systems with summon spells has it "the smaller it is, the easier it is to summon" so a fairy would fit the bill for being small and easy for a beginner to summon, and as I said, if Dex continues to use the spell and awakens, he could eventually be able to summon other things, it'd be the same spell but with different variables to choose from with varying power requirements.

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1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:
1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

If there is no fixed list of thinks to summon, I see no reason why summoning fireguy with separate spell would be easier. Susan can summon ANYTHING from her chest. Of course, separate fireguy spell might have other advantages, like being actually in fire. The thing which explain biggest part of power requirements of fairydoll and fireguy is SIZE.

Agreed on size, but not just size, but also weaponry.  Both the fireguys and the bulldog-dragon had a spell of their own, letting them breathe fireballs.  Dex' fairydoll has nothing comparable.  I'd argue that adding a non-default spell to a summon should cost a bit as well.

The fireguys fireball was more punch than burn. Not sure about the bulldog-dragon, might be similar ... so, yes: adding abilities would also be hard. I would still expect the size is bigger issue than the "fake" version of abilities, and the major advantage of separate fireguy spell being "real" version of abilities, like fireball which is more burn than punch.

55 minutes ago, Scotty said:

I'm not talking about marked Susan here, marked Susan's ability to summon Nase was due to a a glitch with her spell being able to summon anything that's place in a marked container, post awakening, it's apparent that it evolved into a separate spell that's likely the same as Dex's but because Susan's got more experience with magic, her spell has more features.

Well ... it's true we don't have it confirmed, but as far as we know, Susan can still need the fairy "model" in her chest. Remember that summoning Nase was separate spell LONG before she actually read that spell.

58 minutes ago, Scotty said:

When the time came for Susan to gain a new spell, she likely ended up with the summon spell that Dex has, but augmented based on how she originally summoned the fairy as well as how she used other spells, Tedd did say that Susan's spell was "a spell within a spell" so it would make sense that the initial "summon things I have in a box" lead to an offshoot spell for the fairy. Being able to summon multiple fairies might come from her being able to summon multiple hammers or maybe it just comes from having enough power to do so, being able to go first person mode with a fairy would come from the fact that Susan got her peanut butter in Nanase's chocolate.

I would say that her spell being "spell within a spell" and "lot of moving parts" actually SUPPORTS the idea that it's not the same spell as Dex has. To use analogy, dolphins look very similar to sharks, but they have very little common internally (and neither is a fish).

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

Susan seems content with being able to summon fairies so would probably not learn to summon other creatures, but she would likely gain more fairy features.

Susan is probably already able to "animate" anything vaguely resembling doll if she puts it in the chest and summon. If she only use it for summoning fairy dolls, she will likely get more fairy abilities, but remember that she still have affinity for summoning, so new summoning spells can appear from that instead from what she does.

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

Dex, if he awakens, could also stick with the fairy because of what happened at the dojo, or he could experiment with summoning other creatures, maybe even summon the equivalent of Fox.

Dex is anime fan and teenager. I would say that it's extremely unlikely what happened in the dojo will held him too long. He either get abilities related to usage of anime to compensate loneliness, possibly summoning characters from anime or something like that, or his hormones makes him start thinking about summoning something sexy and eventually getting spell like that. Spell resembling Fox - not HIS clone but some female - could easily result from both, so, yes, totally. Only way to stop this would be if he acquired real girl and got different priorities, and I'm still not sure what else he might want to summon. Nursemaid for his child? Even THAT would be similar to Fox.

Well ... he might alternatively get fighting spells if Greg starts training him, but he don't exactly look as good material for martial arts training.

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

Dex could have been playing Legend of Celida and thinking it'd be awesome if he had a fairy companion, when Pandora marked him

Or sometimes before. I would say that the reason he got fairy instead of other kind of companion from some other game is that fairy is small ... and cool. On the other hand, him just playing Celida when marked WOULD make him more likely to be markable, so maybe ...

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

Agreed that the Mark need not be definitive.  It could be a random blob.  But we can't ignore the fact that it *is* definitive.  The Mark accurately represents what Dex can do with it. 

If he WAS playing Celida when marked, you don't need to have Pandora's level of precognition to guess he will summon fairy. No, the shape of the mark has nothing to do with the spell.

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4 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Ellen also has multiple beams, and the beam that transformed Vlad into Vladia could have resulted in the "Amped Up" variant, aside from the "Copy" beam, all of Ellen's other beams (normal, amped up, rapid fire) all share the same basic function, which is to transform someone into an FV5 version of themselves, so that would technically make them the same spell just using different amounts of energy. It's likely we'll never see Ellen fire the same level of beam she hit Vlad with because it was extremely situational, there was very strong emotions, urgency, and likely flair for the dramatic played a part in it as well, and it probably used a lot of energy to cast, whether Ellen could have done that again if Hedge or Guineas tried anything is uncertain, Ellen was pretty fired up at that moment and flair for the dramatic might have allowed it had Grace not interrupted.

We've seen other spells evolve and add features, Nanase's fairy avatar had 3 of it's own abilities that were added as she used the base spell and the base spell itself updated to include appearance customization. Elliot's Superhero form apparently didn't have the ability to merge with whatever was in Elliot's pockets nor had appearance customization beyond face and hair when him and Ellen first read about it, though I guess it could be harder to confirm considering Elliot's lack of reading his spell book, but it still appears to have evolved with use.

I don't see why the summon spell can't be similar. Of course it would require more energy to summon larger and more complex entities, Nanase's Fox spell for instance is a summon that requires a lot of energy but also is semi autonomous and can cast spells as well as long as the spell doesn't deplete the summon. I'm just saying that the summon spell needs to start somewhere, and my experience with magic systems with summon spells has it "the smaller it is, the easier it is to summon" so a fairy would fit the bill for being small and easy for a beginner to summon, and as I said, if Dex continues to use the spell and awakens, he could eventually be able to summon other things, it'd be the same spell but with different variables to choose from with varying power requirements.

All EGS continuity I'm aware of says Ellen's emotional state made her standard FV5 beam behave differently.  It's possible Ellen gained a new spell at that moment and used it instead but that's speculation.  As far as I know, Vllad was hit by Ellen's FV5 handbeam and Something Weird Happened.

I don't see a reason why a spell held by an awakened magic user can't evolve, either.  I am not as sure that a Marked spell can, and remember we're talking about Dex and his Fairydoll.I agree that if Dex were to Awaken, all bets are off for what he could summon.  I'd expect that fireguys and dragons might even be likely summon spells he might get.

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5 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

If he WAS playing Celida when marked, you don't need to have Pandora's level of precognition to guess he will summon fairy. No, the shape of the mark has nothing to do with the spell.

The creature that Dex's Mark summoned was at the whim of the Immortal that marked him.  If Dex really liked the interplay of Celida and his fairy, Dex could be playing Mario Kart when he was Marked and still get a fairy.

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8 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

I don't see a reason why a spell held by an awakened magic user can't evolve, either.  I am not as sure that a Marked spell can,

It usually can't, but Susan's evolved ...

... also, it's hard to say what requires evolution and what requires just more energy.

29 minutes ago, Scotty said:

I don't see why the summon spell can't be similar. Of course it would require more energy to summon larger and more complex entities, Nanase's Fox spell for instance is a summon that requires a lot of energy but also is semi autonomous and can cast spells as well as long as the spell doesn't deplete the summon. I'm just saying that the summon spell needs to start somewhere, and my experience with magic systems with summon spells has it "the smaller it is, the easier it is to summon" so a fairy would fit the bill for being small and easy for a beginner to summon, and as I said, if Dex continues to use the spell and awakens, he could eventually be able to summon other things, it'd be the same spell but with different variables to choose from with varying power requirements.

On awakening, Dex likely get something which counts as new spell. That can STILL be either variation of his current spell, or some upgrade for it like Nanase's fairy abilities. However, if he somehow got something different, his original mark spell would appear in the book and likely get more and more versatility later ...

1 minute ago, Vorlonagent said:
12 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

If he WAS playing Celida when marked, you don't need to have Pandora's level of precognition to guess he will summon fairy. No, the shape of the mark has nothing to do with the spell.

The creature that Dex's Mark summoned was at the whim of the Immortal that marked him.  If Dex really liked the interplay of Celida and his fairy, Dex could be playing Mario Kart when he was Marked and still get a fairy.

I don't think so. Immortals are very limited in what they can mark people with.

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Just now, hkmaly said:

It usually can't, but Susan's evolved ...

I don't remember Susan's Mark evolving.  Are you referring to her version of Nanase's faiydoll? 

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14 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:
16 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

It usually can't, but Susan's evolved ...

I don't remember Susan's Mark evolving.  Are you referring to her version of Nanase's faiydoll? 

Yes. It happened BEFORE she awakened, therefore it couldn't be new spell. It was obviously mix with Nanase's magic, but it still counts as evolving.

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1 minute ago, hkmaly said:

Yes. It happened BEFORE she awakened, therefore it couldn't be new spell. It was obviously mix with Nanase's magic, but it still counts as evolving.

I disagree.  It's just a weird combination of magical effects.  If Susan pulled Nanase's fairydoll out of her box, she would lose the ability to summon it.  If she kept the ability before awakening, only then could it be considered an evolution of Susan's Mark.

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Ok, here's what I hope is a better analogy. Say you have two people, give each their own car, the same year, make and model. Then send them off to two separate garages and let them play with their cars for a while.

Eventually they'll come out with their cars in completely different states, one guy could have souped up the powertrain for more horsepower and torque as well as altered the body to allow more air into the engine, the other could have changed the suspension for better handling and given the body a more streamlined adjustment.

 

That's basically what I'm saying about these, the summon spell would be the same in its base level, but it would evolve and change and add new features based on the person that uses the spell.

Susan had an advantage in that she started with a summon spell that fit her affinity which was summoning objects, Nanase's fairy doll when not occupied by Nanase, is an inanimate object, but at the same time because it could be occupied and controlled, it technically wouldn't be an inanimate object, hence the glitch allowing Susan to summon it as a semi-autonomous fairy instead of an inanimate doll. So basically in regards to my analogy, Dex was given a stock model car, and Susan was given one that already had some work done to it.

8 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

I disagree.  It's just a weird combination of magical effects.  If Susan pulled Nanase's fairydoll out of her box, she would lose the ability to summon it.  If she kept the ability before awakening, only then could it be considered an evolution of Susan's Mark.

Her fairy spell could still be tied to the "summon whatever I have in the box" spell, but it was implied that Susan could have been able to summon her own custom fairy for a while, which would mean that if she took the dolls out of the box, she could still summon a fairy, it just might not look like any of the dolls.  Also, Susan awakened less than a day after first summoning Nase, so she really didn't spend a lot of time with her pre-awakening.

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1 hour ago, Scotty said:

So basically in regards to my analogy, Dex was given a stock model car, and Susan was given one that already had some work done to it.

Susan's car never was a stock model car. Better analogy would be with Susan starting with different car but while modding, used engine normally used in stock model car Dex got. Although it's true that if you can only see the results, you MIGHT assume she started with stock model car and only engine was left from it ...

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

Her fairy spell could still be tied to the "summon whatever I have in the box" spell, but it was implied that Susan could have been able to summon her own custom fairy for a while, which would mean that if she took the dolls out of the box, she could still summon a fairy, it just might not look like any of the dolls.

It wasn't implied. It was mentioned as a possibility which might or might not be true. Based on that single image we saw, only thing we can say for sure is she can now summon multiple dolls.

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

Also, Susan awakened less than a day after first summoning Nase, so she really didn't spend a lot of time with her pre-awakening.

While true, I don't think this kind of reverse causality can affect anyone's abilities.

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:
1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Yes. It happened BEFORE she awakened, therefore it couldn't be new spell. It was obviously mix with Nanase's magic, but it still counts as evolving.

I disagree.  It's just a weird combination of magical effects.  If Susan pulled Nanase's fairydoll out of her box, she would lose the ability to summon it.  If she kept the ability before awakening, only then could it be considered an evolution of Susan's Mark.

Her losing the ability to summon Nase if she pull the fairydoll out of chest doesn't mean the spell didn't evolved. But I don't have any other argument, so we likely need to agree on disagree on this.

(It would help if we knew what was in her book when she got it. On a related note, I would really like to see if ELLEN got something about guardian forms in her book.)

 

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4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Remembering the sound of "monster" is easier than remembering person. Also, did Tedd SAW Adrian? It's possible he would recognize him by look.

Even if Tedd did see Adrian during that flashback, he was still a baby in a crib!  There's no way he'd be able to remember that -- most people can't recall anything before around age three, and many can't access anything below age four or five.  Very rarely someone can remember something from when they were two, but current science suggests that such memories are more reconstructions based on outside knowledge.

4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

No, it isn't, because Dex doesn't have any "model" for the fairy.

I think that's the key difference.  Nanase creates a fairydoll that looks like her.  Susan creates one that looks like a doll in her trunk.  Dex creates a doll that seems to have come purely from his own imagination.  His summons will likely be the most flexible of the three.

4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Of course, separate fireguy spell might have other advantages, like being actually [on] fire. 

Mr. Verres and Grace said that you can't create a creature that's actually made of fire, because it would burn itself up.

3 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

That's a lot to pull out of a Mark  Especially one so clearly marked "Hi, I summon Fairydolls"

Susan's mark is the symbol for 'female' but she doesn't summon women with it.  Sarah wasn't good at trivia questions and she doesn't summon the Riddler (nor the Doctor, who also wears question marks ;-).  Pandora sometimes makes the mark's shape fit the spell it gives, but she also sometimes uses that shape to troll people.

3 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

Agreed on size, but not just size, but also weaponry.  Both the fireguys and the bulldog-dragon had a spell of their own, letting them breathe fireballs.  Dex' fairydoll has nothing comparable.

We don't actually know whether Dex's fairy comes with any extras.  We know the least hard data about his spell.

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Well ... it's true we don't have it confirmed, but as far as we know, Susan can still need the fairy "model" in her chest. Remember that summoning Nase was separate spell LONG before she actually read that spell.

I'm going by the ending image of the "Playing With Dolls" storyline.  Susan has several fairies about her, but they're all based on the dolls they created that day for her to add to her trunk.  If she actually did have a custom fairydoll spell, I would expect at least one fairy to look different from the models.

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

I would say that her spell being "spell within a spell" and "lot of moving parts" actually SUPPORTS the idea that it's not the same spell as Dex has. To use analogy, dolphins look very similar to sharks, but they have very little common internally.

Good analogy.  In this case, we don't know whether they're both fish, or dolphin and manatee, or shark and guppy.

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Susan is probably already able to "animate" anything vaguely resembling doll if she puts it in the chest and summon.

Ooh, I like this idea!  Can we put one of Grace's birthday stuffed animals in the trunk and find out?  Or maybe try a GI Joe and see if the little guns can shoot?

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Dex is anime fan and teenager.

Huh.

I had never, once, even considered the possibility that Dex wasn't an adult.

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Spell resembling Fox - not HIS clone but some female - could easily result from both, so, yes, totally. 

He has been told not to do anything too creepy with his magic.  And I like the fact that his fairy is such an innocent summons, purely a friend to comfort a lonely person.

Now I'm torn.  On the one hand, I don't actually feel like there's anything wrong with using magic to, ah, make yourself happy.  Nanase and Fox can do whatever they like, and I hope we get a sketchbook out of it.  On the other hand, I find the idea of a man creating a semi-sentient female just so he can have sex with her, a pretty big squick.  A bit of a double-standard?  Yup, I admit it.  Hmm, on the other hand, I don't think I have a problem with a guy creating a copy of himself for sexytimes, so maybe it's not such a double-standard.

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

Her fairy spell could still be tied to the "summon whatever I have in the box" spell, but it was implied that Susan could have been able to summon her own custom fairy for a while, which would mean that if she took the dolls out of the box, she could still summon a fairy, it just might not look like any of the dolls.

Again, they speculated that it was possible that she could have a custom fairy spell, but there was no evidence that she actually did, and the final image of the sequence implies that she doesn't.

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