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Story Monday August 14, 2017

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This is a really revealing comic. Pandora's only borderline psychic when she abandons empathy and kindness. Does that sound dangerously close to an abberation abandoning empathy?

I think it's also confirming that Pandora is going to be blindsided by tonight's scheduled activities because she doesn't want to pay the price of becoming borderline psychic again.

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5 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

This is a really revealing comic. Pandora's only borderline psychic when she abandons empathy and kindness. Does that sound dangerously close to an abberation abandoning empathy?

I think it's also confirming that Pandora is going to be blindsided by tonight's scheduled activities because she doesn't want to pay the price of becoming borderline psychic again.

I think it's more the fact that she was suppressing those abilities as part of living with Blaike, Blaike had told her that not knowing what was ahead, was what made the adventure worth taking, Pandora obviously took that to heart and continued to believe that. I think her descent into madness started when she saw an opportunity to wipe out the werewolves, and then as she got older and more bored, she kinda shot herself in the foot by setting up a chain of events that she didn't want to predict the outcome of.

I don't think Pandora's any difference than Humans when if comes to letting her emotions guide her actions, Humans are just a capable of abandoning empathy when angered greatly. Immortals just seem to be more susceptible to us due to how they age. Losing the ability to control emotions is probably the Immortal equivalent to dementia in elderly humans.

3 hours ago, partner555 said:

Angle demon hallucinations is not unique to fairies.

Nope, but I suspect these Pandoras aren't hallucincations. For one, they're not small enough. ;)

 

If Pandora wasn't already planning on resetting soon, this conversation is likely going to make her decide that she needs to. Because it sounds like she's about to convince herself that her recent behaviour almost hurt Tedd badly and that continuing her current life would likely end up doing so again except with her not being able to fix things, and it could very well be much worse too.

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58 minutes ago, animalia said:

That's not what I meant.

Do you mean disliking the shape-shifting aspect?  As in the possibility that there could be a "classic Pandora" body and a "Pandora Chaos Raven" body physically present on the "spirit plane" arguing with each other, both in addition to the Pandora body present in Tedd's basement?

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7 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

Do you mean disliking the shape-shifting aspect?  As in the possibility that there could be a "classic Pandora" body and a "Pandora Chaos Raven" body physically present on the "spirit plane" arguing with each other, both in addition to the Pandora body present in Tedd's basement?

I meant how resetting forces them to emotionally violate themselves. That was bad enough. And now now we are given reason for them being forced to emotional violat themselves.

 

Also I toned DOWN the language I used in previous posts. Saying I consider them resetting to emotionally VIOLATE themselves is putting it mildly.

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13 hours ago, animalia said:

I meant how resetting forces them to emotionally violate themselves. That was bad enough. And now now we are given reason for them being forced to emotional violate themselves.

 

Also I toned DOWN the language I used in previous posts. Saying I consider them resetting to emotionally VIOLATE themselves is putting it mildly.

I can sort of see what you mean.  Taking the darkest view of an Immortal life, they are in a Call of Cthulu game.  Over time they slowly go insane.  They can't get out of the game but they can start the insanity clock over from scratch at the cost of the life they have built for themselves, either remembering their previous existence as removed and abstract, or worse if an improper reset, starting life in a dazed and confused state near tabla rasa state.

A lot of descriptions of human spiritual life bear some resemblance to the Immortal life cycle, which takes the sting out of it for me.  According to some spiritual types, humans have an ego rooted in the lifetime they are living and the body they are living it in, but also a soul that carries forward from incarnation to incarnation containing the totality of all past lives.  Eastern spirituality tends to focus on shedding the ego of the current existence to let the spirit show through.

When an Immortal resets it is the same as a human death.  The self dies but the soul reincarnates.  Selves die.  It's just the nature of things.  No-body lives forever.  A 200 year run is a good run.  I think I might have stuff figured out by 200...  :)

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3 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

I can sort of see what you mean.  Taking the darkest view of an Immortal life, they are in a Call of Cthulu game.  Over time they slowly go insane.  They can't get out of the game but they can start the insanity clock over from scratch at the cost of the life they have built for themselves, either remembering their previous existence as removed and abstract, or worse if an improper reset, starting life in a dazed and confused state near tabla rasa state.

A lot of descriptions of human spiritual life bear some resemblance to the Immortal life cycle, which takes the sting out of it for me.  According to some spiritual types, humans have an ego rooted in the lifetime they are living and the body they are living it in, but also a soul that carries forward from incarnation to incarnation containing the totality of all past lives.  Eastern spirituality tends to focus on shedding the ego of the current existence to let the spirit show through.

When an Immortal resets it is the same as a human death.  The self dies but the soul reincarnates.  Selves die.  It's just the nature of things.  No-body lives forever.  A 200 year run is a good run.  I think I might have stuff figured out by 200...  :)

Actually a forced reset seems better to me in SOME ways. Its better on an emotional front anyways. The problem is that it's inherently more dangerous.Also in most versions of human reincarnations they don't give memories to the new versions. THAT is the bit I found disturbing.

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53 minutes ago, animalia said:

Actually a forced reset seems better to me in SOME ways. Its better on an emotional front anyways. The problem is that it's inherently more dangerous.Also in most versions of human reincarnations they don't give memories to the new versions. THAT is the bit I found disturbing.

A forced reset is certainly a clean break from the past and a clean slate for the future.  That simplifies things emotionally.

I apologize if this steps on territory that is too personal but could you expand on what bothers you about retaining memories from a previous existence?  I'm not getting where you're coming from and I'd like to understand.

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4 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

A forced reset is certainly a clean break from the past and a clean slate for the future.  That simplifies things emotionally.

I apologize if this steps on territory that is too personal but could you expand on what bothers you about retaining memories from a previous existence?  I'm not getting where you're coming from and I'd like to understand.

It takes all of your most most treasured memories of loved one and basically FORCES you to give them to a stranger who won't have the same emotional connection with said loved ones. (I forget where it was said that it was like reading them out of a book.) It would be on thing if you could just pass down the vital technical info the next reset needs to survive but from what little we've seen that seems impossible. Also to add insult to injury said stranger looks JUST like you (OK a younger version of you in the case of Jerry, Helen, and Demetrius, but the point stands). Honestly it seems like a fate worse than death to me.

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1 hour ago, animalia said:

It takes all of your most most treasured memories of loved one and basically FORCES you to give them to a stranger who won't have the same emotional connection with said loved ones. (I forget where it was said that it was like reading them out of a book.) It would be on thing if you could just pass down the vital technical info the next reset needs to survive but from what little we've seen that seems impossible. Also to add insult to injury said stranger looks JUST like you (OK a younger version of you in the case of Jerry, Helen, and Demetrius, but the point stands). Honestly it seems like a fate worse than death to me.

That's a lot clearer, thank you.

I'm hoping at least that things aren't as bad as they look.

My first thought when I read 'as if read from a book" I thought, "yeah, a poorly written book.".  The phrase gives a sense of a dry abstract remembering, not being told a story with the emotional responses a good story can evoke.  That also means the intimate details are not carrying through.  The sights, smells touches and the emotional impact of these things just aren't there.  They died with the old personality., granting it at least some privacy.

if I'm an Immortal and do a proper reset, I'm not handing my memories to a random stranger.  I'm handing them to me.  A new variation on the theme of me, anyway.  There's certain things I am at my core of being and I'll still be those things.  If I handle my past self's memories ungently it would probably be because I'm an ungentle soul to begin with.  If I am one to value personal interaction and intimacy, I will probably treat my previous self's life that same way.  I won't feel what I did but knowing something was important to me once means I will probably teat the memory with respect.

I think the technical aspects of being an Immortal actually do survive a proper reset.  Jerry called it "my new self knowing his lefts from his rights."

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All said, we have been given only tantalizing glimpses into the nature of immortals.  Their ability to become nearly clairvoyant also hinges on letting go of things like empathy that would cloud said clairvoyance.  By allowing Tedd into her heart, Pandora is also hindering her ability to see what is coming.

The rendering of the warring sides of Pandora's mind presents us with something more substantial than shoulder angel/demon hallucinations, suggesting they are more real?  But is that an indication of disfunction or function.  Are they a sign of Pandora have multiple personality disorder, or are Immortals capable of putting on wholly rendered personalities like masks, and perhaps only their getting out of hand is the only breakdown?  Remember when child-like Pandora had a tantrum in front of the Dream Wizard?  Didn't that feel real, and not just an act?

We know they reset, creating another container for their selves with passed down information but keeping their intrinsic nature, effectively the reset is on their actual knowledge (not inofrmation) and power, and we also know they can lie to themselves in passing down this information. So would it be any weirder for them to have multiple current Personalities for their intrinsic selves to play in?  They are shapeshifters; perhaps the shapeshifting is not just physical.

Also, we are taking for granted that there are two options, reset or madness.  For a race that seems to lack coordinated sharing of "cultural information,"  perhaps we should questions those assumptions.  Perhaps other options exist, such as transcending or evolving into something else.

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Pandora referred to the knowledge from her previous self as memoirs, so in essence it's really not much different than someone who's in their later years writing about all their experiences, the people they cared about, etc and passed it along to their grandkids. Immortals resetting themselves would probably be the closest thing they got to what happens to Humans

 

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I would offer an alternative viewpoint/attitude about the whole resetting = death idea.  Just consider, depending on your age, how much like yourself as a child/youth/young adult you are now.  I'm closing on 60, and while I share basic characteristics with my 20 year old self, I'm really, really not the same person.  A reset sounds like a transition, not an ending.  Many things are lost and gained over a lifetime, and after a certain point, there are things you wish you could lose but can't.  What waits for immortals sounds to me more like a transformation to a new state, rather than a rending transgression of the self.

All that said, I'm wondering about the end point of Pandora's internal dialogue here.  She seems to be working towards a higher/deeper level of self awareness about her actions and motivations.  What happens if she decides she did something wrong?  Like, against "immortal law" wrong?  My understanding is that she would reset right then and there, as soon as that realization hit.  

All the foreshadowing - "when will I see you again," and  "you're a good friend,"  may be about to pay off a lot faster than anticipated.

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On 8/14/2017 at 4:34 AM, partner555 said:

Angle demon hallucinations is not unique to fairies.

 

18 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

So, what are these about? Demon fishermen, or possibly the geometry of evil? *scratches head*

Worse, it's the Rouge Angles of Satin!

7 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

When an Immortal resets it is the same as a human death.  The self dies but the soul reincarnates.  Selves die.  It's just the nature of things.  No-body lives forever. 

Speak for yourself!  I intend to live forever.  (So far, so good!)

Actually, my goal would be better described as to live indefinitely than to live forever, but not many notice these distinctions. ;-)

 

I find quite interesting the three different forms of Pandora we see here.  The "conscience" form is Pandora as she was while she was with Blaike, having found something in her life worth passing on to her next self, but still certain she would reset when Blaike died.  The opposing side in this internal debate is Chaos, the form she became when she was long past her reset date, and apparently losing her true emotional connections to and empathy with those she interacts with.  And the form she chose to interact with Tedd is how she looked just after Blaike died, when she still intended to reset at two hundred, but also the self which, when the time came, couldn't bear to let her love die.

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4 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

That's a lot clearer, thank you.

I'm hoping at least that things aren't as bad as they look.

My first thought when I read 'as if read from a book" I thought, "yeah, a poorly written book.".  The phrase gives a sense of a dry abstract remembering, not being told a story with the emotional responses a good story can evoke.  That also means the intimate details are not carrying through.  The sights, smells touches and the emotional impact of these things just aren't there.  They died with the old personality., granting it at least some privacy.

if I'm an Immortal and do a proper reset, I'm not handing my memories to a random stranger.  I'm handing them to me.  A new variation on the theme of me, anyway.  There's certain things I am at my core of being and I'll still be those things.  If I handle my past self's memories ungently it would probably be because I'm an ungentle soul to begin with.  If I am one to value personal interaction and intimacy, I will probably treat my previous self's life that same way.  I won't feel what I did but knowing something was important to me once means I will probably teat the memory with respect.

I think the technical aspects of being an Immortal actually do survive a proper reset.  Jerry called it "my new self knowing his lefts from his rights."

Have you ever seen Inuyasha? If so I would consider different incarnations of Fairies as different as Kikyo and Kagome were different people. You can't really compare them.

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1 hour ago, animalia said:

Have you ever seen Inuyasha? If so I would consider different incarnations of Fairies as different as Kikyo and Kagome were different people. You can't really compare them.

This may be a little off topic but I hated what Kikyo eventually got turned into. I am not going into detail but she severely ticks me off. *muttermuttergrumble*

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6 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

This may be a little off topic but I hated what Kikyo eventually got turned into. I am not going into detail but she severely ticks me off. *muttermuttergrumble*

Have yoy seen the Final Act as well?

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2 hours ago, animalia said:

Have yoy seen the Final Act as well?

No. I and my wife gave up on the series after a while. We loved some of the initial episodes and many of the ideas, but... well. Suffice it to say that we were dissatisfied with what the series became. I do not wish to start an argument about the quality of the series; it had many good points even later on and I do not wish to offend its fans.

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19 hours ago, animalia said:

It takes all of your most most treasured memories of loved one and basically FORCES you to give them to a stranger who won't have the same emotional connection with said loved ones. (I forget where it was said that it was like reading them out of a book.) It would be on thing if you could just pass down the vital technical info the next reset needs to survive but from what little we've seen that seems impossible. Also to add insult to injury said stranger looks JUST like you (OK a younger version of you in the case of Jerry, Helen, and Demetrius, but the point stands). Honestly it seems like a fate worse than death to me.

The simple fact that Immortals can lie to their future incarnations through these memoirs would imply they have some degree of control over what they pass on. If everything was automatically passed on in a proper death, then the lie would have been nigh-impossible to pull off(all it would have taken to break the lie is for an Immortal to check the memories after their elf child had a child)

If an Immortal can choose what to pass on when they die, then they can leave out or generalize the more personal parts of their history if they so wish. Similar to how a human writing their memoirs can omit or alter details to be passed on to future generations. Also, we've seen that an Immortal has to actively reference the memoirs to get the information from them. They don't automatically know the contents. Though likely some information is automatically known after a proper death, otherwise the new Immortal wouldn't know how to reference the memoirs, as we saw when H&D didn't know how to reference their ancestral memories after an improper death.

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15 hours ago, animalia said:

Have you ever seen Inuyasha? If so I would consider different incarnations of Fairies as different as Kikyo and Kagome were different people. You can't really compare them.

No but I can read the wikipedia entry.  I don't think Immortal reincarnation works the same as it does in Inuyasha.   Consider what Pandora says in today's comic as she argues with herself.  "I would still be me where it matters"

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On 8/15/2017 at 3:15 AM, The Old Hack said:

So, what are these about? Demon fishermen, or possibly the geometry of evil? *scratches head*

Okay, I've searched, but I am getting nowhere (at least conclusively).  Please explain your reference to Demon fishermen and the geometry of evil.  Then I can stop thinking about it.

Obsessive?  Who's obsessive.

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