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ProfessorTomoe

Story Wednesday August 16th, 2017

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Actually we all sort of reset, continuously. How much do you remember from ten years ago? Do any of you really remember much from when you were three or four? Chances are excellent that much of what you think you remember is wrong.

Getting back to the story, I think we should remember that Pandora has had a few words with Young Jerry, who seems to retain some of the affection that Old Jerry felt for Susan beyond the obligation of that Vow.

Anyway, Pandora probably isn't going to reset voluntarily before Sarah has drained the excess magic and Adrian has taken down the dam, certainly not before she speaks with Adrian again, which she told Sarah she wasn't going to do until Saturday--tomorrow, Moperville time. She'll at least want to tell Adrian what she's going to try to do and why before she resets in case it doesn't work and she loses the parts of her she wants to keep.

However, the forecast is trending toward at least one battle tonight, and Pandora's unlikely to peace out if her family looks like it's about to lose. Thus, she's still quite likely to go too far and get reset without proper preparation.

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1 hour ago, partner555 said:

If Pandora resets with emotional attachment, then things will be good, but I doubt it's going to be that easy.

This at least gives me hope for a happy ending for Pandora.

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Issa knowledge they need. The proper one. And that was the other option.

37 minutes ago, animalia said:

This at least gives me hope for a happy ending for Pandora.

A positive outlook does not always mean a positive outcome. "Storymaking 102".

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1 minute ago, Stature said:

Issa knowledge they need. The proper one. And that was the other option.

A positive outlook does not always mean a positive outcome. "Storymaking 102".

I said HOPE, NOT guarantee. I swear for someone who claims to want to make "lighter" storylines I find this darker than the Damien storyline. It came across as having elements of emotional rape to me. This new page gives hope that such an end will be able to be avoided, and if it does not pay off I will be PISSED.

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I wonder how a reset with emotional attachment passed on would work. There have to be enough knowledge of who the people she cares about are of which there's at least Adrian, Tedd and Sarah*. Would everything else be selective memory loss, figure out what can be forgotten and relearned later? I admit that what Pandora's suggesting could very well lead to us seeing her going off to college with the Main Eight.

*We know Pandora liked Sarah, partly because she's good friends with Tedd, partly because Pandora never needed to explain every detail of the dam and stuff to Sarah like she did with Disco Wizard. But I think she really grew attached to Sarah with her most recent talk. Plus having the emotional attachment passed on along the vow to help Sarah might make the experience more personal for both of them rather than it being just Teacher/Student if she only had the vow driving things.

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Goodness, yesterday I suggested there could be other options then reset/not reset.  Not sure if that is close enough to reset/no reset/modified reset, but I'll take it.  Wow, does that mean I get a cookie?  I am a little stunned.

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Ooh, this is getting exciting though.  Can't see Pandora resetting before tonight; too much to do, including talk to Adrian, teach him how to defuse the dam, mentor Sara (or would she arrange a different mentor, like Adrian, so she can reset before too long), as well as figuring out the actual reset process.  But in the midst of that, trying to stay focused on this new goal when a battle breaks out threatening Adrian and the rest of the Scoobies.  Hoo boy, who's going to blow up tonight?  Pandora?  Lord Protector Tedd?  Elliot and Ellen in a Wonder Twin Powers moment?  Break out the popcorn!

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4 hours ago, animalia said:

This at least gives me hope for a happy ending for Pandora.

Me too.

3 hours ago, Stature said:

Issa knowledge they need. The proper one. And that was the other option.

A positive outlook does not always mean a positive outcome. "Storymaking 102".

Don't be a downer.

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Passing on emotional attachments likely aren't done because of the risks it would present (there might also an argument about forcing emotional attachments on a new incarnation, but that gets muddled with technicalities, contexts, obligations, and stuff). Most of the problems that Pandora has caused are, in one way or another, tied to her emotional attachments. Namely, she put off resetting for so long because of her strong emotional attachments. Though, on the other hand, her strong emotional attachments, along with Blake's advise about not knowing the path ahead, helped her stay grounded at times. If she didn't have Blake's advise, or the emotional attachment to make that advise relevant, then she would likely ended up much worse.

To be clear, I think Pandora passing on at least some (likely most) of her emotional attachments will be a good thing, or at least better than passing on none of them. There's too much going on at the moment, too many points of connection that need her to retain the emotional attachment to keep her invested in a positive manner (whereas new-Jerry appears to resent Jerry's vow to Susan and the group to some extent).

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Dan = sneaky

I didn't see it until about the fourth time I read this strip, the Pandora who speaks at the end is the one who has been standing silent in the background throughout.  

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Pandora's dilemma definitely reminds me of Ashildr, from Doctor Who, a Viking girl who became immortal sort of by accident.  Infinite lifespan, finite memory.  She started keeping a journal with the most important things in her life, to re-read when she had forgotten who she used to be.  It filled a respectably-sized library in her home and spilled out into the halls the second time the Doctor encountered her.  There were places pages were stained with tears, places where pages had been torn out because she wanted to forget what those pages held.  But she only knew what was in the diary as something she had read about.  One wonders whether someone like that could actually learn the important lessons in life, or whether they too would be forgotten along with the details of how they were learned.  Apparently she could, though, because the person who the Doctor met at the end of the universe was very different from the girl he saved from dying.

They did something visually similar with Methos's diary in Highlander, kept since writing was invented, with parts of the diary on papyrus scrolls and cuneiform tablets.  In that series, however, Immortals have excellent memories so I never really got the impression Methos needed the diary.

From what Pandora and the Emissary of Magic said, it sounds like an Immortal only passes along what the most recent incarnation chooses to pass along.  There isn't an ever-growing library of mental tomes.  Or, if there is, the older ones must be much harder to access than the most recent one.  Perhaps they're nested, like a hard drive archive with files for a previous archive that contains a previous archive which contains the recovered files from a crash which contains....  Hmm, wasn't there an xkcd on that?   ....yup, there sure is!

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Just now, CritterKeeper said:

They did something visually similar with Methos's diary in Highlander, kept since writing was invented, with parts of the diary on papyrus scrolls and cuneiform tablets.  In that series, however, Immortals have excellent memories so I never really got the impression Methos needed the diary.

I don't remember much of the series, but he was the 5000 year old Immortal right? I wouldn't be surprised if he did it either to pass the time. Or maybe he wanted a record of his life written down on the chance another Immortal took his head.

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Scotty said:

I don't remember much of the series, but he was the 5000 year old Immortal right? I wouldn't be surprised if he did it either to pass the time. Or maybe he wanted a record of his life written down on the chance another Immortal took his head.

He was at least 5000, that was as far back as he could remember.  Nerdy young Watcher Adam Pierce, assigned to research Methos and figure out if he was just a legend or a real immortal.  Three guesses what the plot twist there was.  ;-)

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6 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

One wonders whether someone like that could actually learn the important lessons in life, or whether they too would be forgotten along with the details of how they were learned.  Apparently she could, though, because the person who the Doctor met at the end of the universe was very different from the girl he saved from dying.

The important lessons are the ones we tend to NOT forget. Humans don't forget the oldest stuff first, they forget the least important stuff first.

6 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

From what Pandora and the Emissary of Magic said, it sounds like an Immortal only passes along what the most recent incarnation chooses to pass along.  There isn't an ever-growing library of mental tomes.  Or, if there is, the older ones must be much harder to access than the most recent one.

Based on the "passing lies" possibility, the most recent incarnation can definitely choose to edit what is to be passed, but it seems that USUALLY they doesn't. I don't think there is any hard limit on how big the "library" can be, but USUALLY the most recent incarnation keeps the amount relatively small ... and it's also possible the next incarnation can choose to not read everything immediately or skip the boring parts.

9 hours ago, Nayl said:

I didn't see it until about the fourth time I read this strip, the Pandora who speaks at the end is the one who has been standing silent in the background throughout.  

Does it MEAN anything, though? Are there really distinct Pandora's sub-personalities (similar to Susan's logic and curiosity) or was it just for reader's convenience?

11 hours ago, Tuscahoma said:

Can't see Pandora resetting before tonight; too much to do, including talk to Adrian, teach him how to defuse the dam, mentor Sara (or would she arrange a different mentor, like Adrian, so she can reset before too long), as well as figuring out the actual reset process.

I think Adrian already knows how to defuse the dam. However, she may need to tell him WHERE.

Anyway, yes ; while she seem to reach conclusion that attempt to do reset might be better than not, I definitely don't see her doing it so fast. I would also expect that she would WARN at least Sarah and probably also Adrian about that.

18 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

However, the forecast is trending toward at least one battle tonight, and Pandora's unlikely to peace out if her family looks like it's about to lose. Thus, she's still quite likely to go too far and get reset without proper preparation.

Yes ... although maybe she WILL somehow manage to keep the emotional ties regardless.

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1 minute ago, hkmaly said:

Does it MEAN anything, though? Are there really distinct Pandora's sub-personalities (similar to Susan's logic and curiosity) or was it just for reader's convenience?

I think it closes the loop on the internal dialogue with what amounts to a decision by all of Pandora, not just the two subsets represented by Empathy and Chaos.  If you track the sequence, when Tedd leaves, the dialogue starts as Empathy appears, followed by Chaos.  What's particularly fine about this whole sequence is that it combines aspects of multiple personalities and the devil/angel-on-your-shoulders trope without being limited by either conceit.  What I came away with was the sense that this is an abstract representation of Pandora's inner process, what the roiling, unstable emotional core of her looks like when it looks inward.  Empathy and Chaos are not at war, they are having a discussion, indeed, they finish each others sentences at a few points.  The shift back to Pandora actual at the end signifies resolution and decision in a very neat, show you don't tell you way that adds dimension and tone to what is being conveyed.  

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13 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

...and it's also possible the next incarnation can choose to not read everything immediately or skip the boring parts.

We saw proof of that when Pandora had a sense of dejavu when Disco Wizard mentioned the magic change, that knowledge had been passed from her previous incarnation but she must not have really paid any attention to it until it became important.

4 minutes ago, Nayl said:
20 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Does it MEAN anything, though? Are there really distinct Pandora's sub-personalities (similar to Susan's logic and curiosity) or was it just for reader's convenience?

I think it closes the loop on the internal dialogue with what amounts to a decision by all of Pandora, not just the two subsets represented by Empathy and Chaos.  If you track the sequence, when Tedd leaves, the dialogue starts as Empathy appears, followed by Chaos.  What's particularly fine about this whole sequence is that it combines aspects of multiple personalities and the devil/angel-on-your-shoulders trope without being limited by either conceit.  What I came away with was the sense that this is an abstract representation of Pandora's inner process, what the roiling, unstable emotional core of her looks like when it looks inward.  Empathy and Chaos are not at war, they are having a discussion, indeed, they finish each others sentences at a few points.  The shift back to Pandora actual at the end signifies resolution and decision in a very neat, show you don't tell you way that adds dimension and tone to what is being conveyed. 

I want to add that the representation of the Chaos side seems more like a culmination of all the questionable choices Pandora made after Blaike's death that she justified as "for the best" either with Adrian's benefit in mind, or her own, but much of it might have been done either without considering the consequences of her actions, or she deflected blame, like when she allowed Adrian to fight Abraham and instead of it being her fault for not acting to prevent it, she called it a harsh lesson in mortality.

Both sides at least agree that the resets suck because she loses any emotional attachment to the people she cares about, one side sees the logic in doing so while the other believes they can deal with a little instability from time to time, which is probably arrogant to think. But now there's a third option that, while apparently very risky, is what Pandora decided upon doing, trying to reset while maintaining emotional connections to the people she cares about. Failure might mean an improper reset in which she loses most of her knowledge and the rest probably get's garbled. The alternative would be not resetting and risking hurting those she cares about as the years make her more powerful and unstable.

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55 minutes ago, Scotty said:

We saw proof of that when Pandora had a sense of dejavu when Disco Wizard mentioned the magic change, that knowledge had been passed from her previous incarnation but she must not have really paid any attention to it until it became important.

She obviously at least read it when she first reset, hence why it sounded familiar and how she knew where to look for the information.  She may not have read her full memoirs since then, though, which explains the need to go back and "re-read" the passage.  It does make me wonder what she was like in that previous life....

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41 minutes ago, CritterKeeper said:

It does make me wonder what she was like in that previous life....

Well her basic nature would have been the same. Extrapolating from what we know of her, her basic nature seems to be an emotionally driven, but good-hearted trickster.

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13 hours ago, Drasvin said:

Well her basic nature would have been the same. Extrapolating from what we know of her, her basic nature seems to be an emotionally driven, but good-hearted trickster.

I think "trickster" primarily.  In that mode she wasn't "bad" per se....   But humor, especially practical joke sort of humor is hard to pull off without some cruelty.  Which in turn often requires some indifference to the object of the prank.

I'd like to credit Blaike with putting Pandora in touch with her empathy.  Maybe Pandora's experience with Blaike was enough to bring about a change to basic nature.  I expect we'll find out eventually.

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1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

I think "trickster" primarily.  In that mode she wasn't "bad" per se....   But humor, especially practical joke sort of humor is hard to pull off without some cruelty.  Which in turn often requires some indifference to the object of the prank.

I'd like to credit Blaike with putting Pandora in touch with her empathy.  Maybe Pandora's experience with Blaike was enough to bring about a change to basic nature.  I expect we'll find out eventually.

Perhaps one of the reasons Pandora has not reset is because of Blaike's influence on her.  Perhaps she fears if she resets she will lose that influence; she would lose touch with her empathy and humanity.

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On 8/16/2017 at 1:07 PM, CritterKeeper said:

Pandora's dilemma definitely reminds me of Ashildr, from Doctor Who, a Viking girl who became immortal sort of by accident.  Infinite lifespan, finite memory.  She started keeping a journal with the most important things in her life, to re-read when she had forgotten who she used to be.  It filled a respectably-sized library in her home and spilled out into the halls the second time the Doctor encountered her.  There were places pages were stained with tears, places where pages had been torn out because she wanted to forget what those pages held.  But she only knew what was in the diary as something she had read about.  One wonders whether someone like that could actually learn the important lessons in life, or whether they too would be forgotten along with the details of how they were learned.  Apparently she could, though, because the person who the Doctor met at the end of the universe was very different from the girl he saved from dying.

They did something visually similar with Methos's diary in Highlander, kept since writing was invented, with parts of the diary on papyrus scrolls and cuneiform tablets.  In that series, however, Immortals have excellent memories so I never really got the impression Methos needed the diary.

From what Pandora and the Emissary of Magic said, it sounds like an Immortal only passes along what the most recent incarnation chooses to pass along.  There isn't an ever-growing library of mental tomes.  Or, if there is, the older ones must be much harder to access than the most recent one.  Perhaps they're nested, like a hard drive archive with files for a previous archive that contains a previous archive which contains the recovered files from a crash which contains....  Hmm, wasn't there an xkcd on that?   ....yup, there sure is!

So now you have me imagining the existence of an Immortal who has meticulously passed along nested, linked, indexed and fulltext searchable Memory Palace of ALL his/her previous incarnations.  This Immortal also has a love of technology and has created an artifact that will exist across incarnations and is able to store an Immortals memories as a backup in case of a botched reset.  This Immortal goes by the name of Knuth.

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17 hours ago, hkmaly said:

I think Adrian already knows how to defuse the dam. However, she may need to tell him WHERE.

Anyway, yes ; while she seem to reach conclusion that attempt to do reset might be better than not, I definitely don't see her doing it so fast. I would also expect that she would WARN at least Sarah and probably also Adrian about that.

I wonder if she will warn anyone about her reset or the nature of it.  Part of me thinks, Yes, obviously so, but another wonders if maybe she wouldn't or wouldn't let anyone know that she is attempting something new, so that they wouldn't worry about her or try to talk her out of it.   Hmmm....

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