• Announcements

    • Robin

      Welcome!   03/05/2016

      Welcome, everyone, to the new 910CMX Community Forums. I'm still working on getting them running, so things may change.  If you're a 910 Comic creator and need your forum recreated, let me know and I'll get on it right away.  I'll do my best to make this new place as fun as the last one!
The Old Hack

NP Wednesday August 23, 2017

Recommended Posts

3 minutes ago, partner555 said:

No culture of their own? How would that even be possible?

Culture isn't something automatic. It is something that comes into existence when large numbers of individuals start to live together and establish norms of behavior, speech and so forth. Immortals are almost the exact opposite of this. Their number compared to that of humans is very small and they often live in isolation to the point where they even hide from one another. In this kind of existence it makes sense that individual Immortals would want to borrow culture in order not to be alone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Should someone tell Dan that they were originally looking for a Chinese actress to play Kaylee's part (I'm assuming they had another name in mind) but the actress who got the role blew them away with her performance so they changed it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Commentary reminds me of the ADVid Notes at the end of Excel Saga's second episode.

"These VAs speak English about as well as most anime fanboys/girls speak Japanese."
^paraphrased

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Culture gap between generations? Possible.

Tradition is along the lines of culture? Sure. So is resetting not "tradition"? :demonicduck:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is it bad that I find it amusing that Susan went a little overboard there and is now backpeddling?

I mean Hanma asked her to help make sure she wouldn't offend anyone or be seen as a bad Immortal and so Susan thought she was doing so by pointing out her use of Japanese honorifics, but of course she didn't know the reason Hanma mentioned it to begin with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Scotty said:

Is it bad that I find it amusing that Susan went a little overboard there and is now backpeddling?

I mean Hanma asked her to help make sure she wouldn't offend anyone or be seen as a bad Immortal and so Susan thought she was doing so by pointing out her use of Japanese honorifics, but of course she didn't know the reason Hanma mentioned it to begin with.

I find it amusing a well

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, animalia said:

Should someone tell Dan that they were originally looking for a Chinese actress to play Kaylee's part (I'm assuming they had another name in mind) but the actress who got the role blew them away with her performance so they changed it?

No seriously, should someone tell Dan this?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think pretty much everything in this installment should be canon. The sparseness of their own culture could do a lot to explain why Immortals are so concerned with mortals. Collectively they could wipe us out if they all cared to do it. The sheer variety of human cultures offers interesting variations to discover for these sufferers of chronic boredom.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, mlooney said:

Well, culture or lack there of aside, at least we know it was Nanase the Susan contacted.

Which shouldn't surprise anyone.

10 hours ago, Stature said:

Culture gap between generations? Possible.

Tradition is along the lines of culture? Sure. So is resetting not "tradition"? :demonicduck:

Hanma might not have clear understanding what culture is. What she didn't like was the isolation.

7 hours ago, The Old Hack said:
8 hours ago, animalia said:

No seriously, should someone tell Dan this?

There is nothing wrong with either e-mailing Dan or tweeting him about it. Feel free to do either :)

Or tumblr him. I mean, he can also be contacted on tumblr.

1 hour ago, Tom Sewell said:

I think pretty much everything in this installment should be canon.

Only difference from canon is that Hanma didn't told this to Susan. She is explaining her origin story and THAT is canon per the "The storyline's not canon, but Hanma definitely is. She has to be." comment.

2 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

The sparseness of their own culture could do a lot to explain why Immortals are so concerned with mortals. Collectively they could wipe us out if they all cared to do it. The sheer variety of human cultures offers interesting variations to discover for these sufferers of chronic boredom.

Of course they could wipe us out if not for immortal law but what would they gain from it?

I already mentioned that one of most important reasons why immortal laws exists is to prevent one immortal to kill other immortal fun by killing his pet human(s).

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, animalia said:

I gave up on contact Dan when I realized he never replies to me. i am hoping someone  who CAN contact him can contact im FOR me

I suppose it's not personal, that he's just unable to reply to everything. And that there isn't bigger chance for reply to someone who already got reply in past.

Although maybe patreon would be more reliable? :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

I suppose it's not personal, that he's just unable to reply to everything. And that there isn't bigger chance for reply to someone who already got reply in past.

Although maybe patreon would be more reliable? :)

I don't have the funds

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

I think pretty much everything in this installment should be canon. The sparseness of their own culture could do a lot to explain why Immortals are so concerned with mortals. Collectively they could wipe us out if they all cared to do it. The sheer variety of human cultures offers interesting variations to discover for these sufferers of chronic boredom.

I've never understood how anyone could think that an immortal would be bored.  The world is so huge, with so many places to go, cultures to explore, hobbies and professions and arts to learn.  And if you managed to see it all, it would take so long that everything would be changed and you could start all over again!  Learn how to make the new-fangled flint-tipped spears, or build these fancy new things called chimneys, or build and repair automobiles, or program in javascript....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, CritterKeeper said:

I've never understood how anyone could think that an immortal would be bored.  The world is so huge, with so many places to go, cultures to explore, hobbies and professions and arts to learn.  And if you managed to see it all, it would take so long that everything would be changed and you could start all over again!  Learn how to make the new-fangled flint-tipped spears, or build these fancy new things called chimneys, or build and repair automobiles, or program in javascript....

There are PEOPLE who are border. TEENAGERS. Just because there is stuff you didn't tried doesn't mean you don't FEEL like there is nothing interesting left in world.

Also, specifically in case of immortals, we can't really understand what their clairvoyance does with it. Maybe programming is boring for them because they immediately know what the program will be doing when they look at it - ... ok, ok, that sounds very unbelievable. Especially in case of javascript. Javascript can ALWAYS surprise you. Also there is this little bit called halting problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

I've never understood how anyone could think that an immortal would be bored.  The world is so huge, with so many places to go, cultures to explore, hobbies and professions and arts to learn.  And if you managed to see it all, it would take so long that everything would be changed and you could start all over again!  Learn how to make the new-fangled flint-tipped spears, or build these fancy new things called chimneys, or build and repair automobiles, or program in javascript....

 

6 hours ago, hkmaly said:

There are PEOPLE who are border. TEENAGERS. Just because there is stuff you didn't tried doesn't mean you don't FEEL like there is nothing interesting left in world.

Also, specifically in case of immortals, we can't really understand what their clairvoyance does with it. Maybe programming is boring for them because they immediately know what the program will be doing when they look at it - ... ok, ok, that sounds very unbelievable. Especially in case of javascript. Javascript can ALWAYS surprise you. Also there is this little bit called halting problem.

Oh you make me smile

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, hkmaly said:

There are PEOPLE who are border. TEENAGERS. Just because there is stuff you didn't tried doesn't mean you don't FEEL like there is nothing interesting left in world.

Okay, so immortality is not for the lazy.  If someone expects the world to come to their door and entertain them constantly, with no effort on their part, then the world will disappoint and bore them.  Boredom is almost always a self-inflicted wound.

10 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Also, specifically in case of immortals, we can't really understand what their clairvoyance does with it. Maybe programming is boring for them because they immediately know what the program will be doing when they look at it - ... ok, ok, that sounds very unbelievable. Especially in case of javascript. Javascript can ALWAYS surprise you. Also there is this little bit called halting problem.

I suspect the main humor of your post is lost on non-programmers.  Programming was just one example in a series of examples of how technological advancements lead to there being new things to learn that didn't exist in the past and thus can't be something an immortal already knew.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:
17 hours ago, hkmaly said:

There are PEOPLE who are border. TEENAGERS. Just because there is stuff you didn't tried doesn't mean you don't FEEL like there is nothing interesting left in world.

Okay, so immortality is not for the lazy.  If someone expects the world to come to their door and entertain them constantly, with no effort on their part, then the world will disappoint and bore them.

Wait, isn't it netflix business model? Not speaking about several others?

7 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

Boredom is almost always a self-inflicted wound.

I think in case of those teenagers it's related to hormones. Of course, there are lot of adults who don't have such excuse.

7 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

I suspect the main humor of your post is lost on non-programmers.

Maybe few links? Surprising javascript: https://github.com/denysdovhan/wtfjs https://wtfjs.com/ ... hmmm, those likely wouldn't help, too technical. I remember reading much better list but can't find it now. Maybe this one https://charlieharvey.org.uk/page/javascript_the_weird_parts ...

And obviously Halting problem. And Turing jump. Are you sure it's just non-programmers who are lost on this one?

7 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

Programming was just one example in a series of examples of how technological advancements lead to there being new things to learn that didn't exist in the past and thus can't be something an immortal already knew.

While true, programming is very special example, if you look at it from the mathematical/logical/philosophical side. On the other hand, it also doesn't seem that new from this side: sure, it took humans centuries to build that, but someone clever could realize all that stuff without having access to physical computer.

Programming is also supposed to be deterministic. It's likely immortals would be more surprised by cases where it isn't than where it is.

I think that cultural advancements are generally more surprising than technological ones, on the other hand the SPEED of technological progress in last century or two surprised almost everyone. Regarding cultural advancement, people seems to be more surprised by how SLOW it is.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎8‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 10:12 PM, CritterKeeper said:

I've never understood how anyone could think that an immortal would be bored.  The world is so huge, with so many places to go, cultures to explore, hobbies and professions and arts to learn.  And if you managed to see it all, it would take so long that everything would be changed and you could start all over again!  Learn how to make the new-fangled flint-tipped spears, or build these fancy new things called chimneys, or build and repair automobiles, or program in javascript....

There are few things that are truly novel and original, especially in technology. Most innovations are derived and/or iterated from something that came before. The flint-tipped spear is a based on the basic pointy stick you can find in nature, with a sharp rock tied to it. The chimney started as a simple tube in the wall in Roman bakeries and was steadily iterated upon and improved from there. The automobile is a horse-drawn carriage, made out of metal and with an internal combustion engine instead of a horse. The internal combustion engine draws quite a few principals from the steam engine. The piston design of steam engines was inspired by the safety valve of a steam pressure cooker and early experimental steam engines took ideas from waterwheels and windmills. JavaScript is built from Java, which is one of many programming languages derived from C. The basic concept of the computer, a machine which automates computations, goes back to at least Charles Babbage and his analytical engine. A lot of the discoveries in physics are first predicted by mathematical models and then tested to confirm the model. Innovation is largely about combining principals in new ways and occasionally coming up with a new principal.

Cultures could provide more novelty, but just like with technology, a lot of culture is built upon and from what came before. If one looks carefully back through history, you can trace the path of traditions, situations, and reactions to those situation that shape a culture. Drastic cultural shifts are often the result of two or more cultures bumping into each other or some sort of catastrophe happening. Many works of art are derived, in whole or in part, from previous works of art and/or things in the natural world (which many would argue is a work of art itself). The human imagination doesn't work in a vacuum. It draws upon the person's knowledge and experiences to craft the concepts that get turned into art.

That said, there is a significant flaw in the concept of an immortal getting bored from the weight of ages. It's easy to look back into history, tracing the paths of innovation and change that led to the modern day, and view it as a deterministic pattern. Since this is the way it turned out, this is the only way it could have turned out. This ignores the fact that the societies of the world are a high-chaos system. Accurately predicting how the system advanced would first require an accurate model of the system (which isn't out of the question. Just extrapolate the model from past events, tweaking the model as new data points become available) and reliable variables. You would then need the computational power to run the model and calculate the variables, quickly enough that the next data point can be extrapolated before said data point can occur. On top of that, with how chaotic the system is, even an extremely small error in computation can lead to a vastly different result. That's why weather predictions aren't always accurate, as a simple rounding error on data entry can result in significantly different results. The human brain simply doesn't have the memory retention and computational power needed to accurately run such a model at the speeds needed to reliably cause boredom. That's why people who try to predict how chaotic systems will progress often let computers do the heavy lifting of computations. Though said limitation might not be true for non-human immortal beings. An non-human immortal might have the mental capacity to run the computations, but still could experience surprises due to flaws in their model or in the variables they have.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's a TV series called Connections that explores how many different people and things and innovations interact, just how many different factors had to turn out exactly as they did, exactly when they did, in order to get the outcome we got; and conversely, how many things pointed in a given direction and make it seem almost inevitable a given outcome happened.  It's been a while since I've seen it, but it made some fascinating connections.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

There's a TV series called Connections that explores how many different people and things and innovations interact, just how many different factors had to turn out exactly as they did, exactly when they did, in order to get the outcome we got; and conversely, how many things pointed in a given direction and make it seem almost inevitable a given outcome happened.  It's been a while since I've seen it, but it made some fascinating connections.

Be careful with that line of thinking. If I'm not mistaken, Mr. Burke led his connections to the development of the atomic bomb. :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Drasvin said:

That said, there is a significant flaw in the concept of an immortal getting bored from the weight of ages. It's easy to look back into history, tracing the paths of innovation and change that led to the modern day, and view it as a deterministic pattern. Since this is the way it turned out, this is the only way it could have turned out. This ignores the fact that the societies of the world are a high-chaos system. Accurately predicting how the system advanced would first require an accurate model of the system (which isn't out of the question. Just extrapolate the model from past events, tweaking the model as new data points become available) and reliable variables. You would then need the computational power to run the model and calculate the variables, quickly enough that the next data point can be extrapolated before said data point can occur. On top of that, with how chaotic the system is, even an extremely small error in computation can lead to a vastly different result. That's why weather predictions aren't always accurate, as a simple rounding error on data entry can result in significantly different results.

Hari Seldon would disagree, but on the other hand he did failed to predict The Mule.

7 hours ago, Drasvin said:

That's why people who try to predict how chaotic systems will progress often let computers do the heavy lifting of computations. Though said limitation might not be true for non-human immortal beings. An non-human immortal might have the mental capacity to run the computations, but still could experience surprises due to flaws in their model or in the variables they have.

Yes, in fact I would say EGS very clearly states that immortals have mental capacity big enough ... and also shows that nevertheless, they can still be surprised.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now