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partner555

Story Monday Sep 11 2017

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Looks like a generic security guard to me.

 

Where has '... and I know Grace" been used before? it is familiar but I can not remember the scene.

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I'd say DS9 was the best of the Trek Franchise (clearing an inconsistent quality bar).  Due in no small part to comparison to its contemporary, Babylon 5.  DS9 cribbed a few notes from B5 but could not fairly said to have simply been derivative however.

I disliked "Jake Sisko, Ace War Reporter" but that's a personal thing.

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11 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

I disliked "Jake Sisko, Ace War Reporter" but that's a personal thing.

You did? I am disappointed in you.

I did not merely dislike him. I loathed him. So much. There were a few good Jake Sisko stories and one outstandingly brilliant one, but every single episode where Jake tried to be a reporter made me gag whenever he appeared on the screen.

 

About the comic itself: I love the character interactions. Poor Diane. And Justin is actually being pretty big in trying to calm her and giving her helpful advice.

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1 minute ago, The Old Hack said:

You did? I am disappointed in you.

I did not merely dislike him. I loathed him. So much. There were a few good Jake Sisko stories and one outstandingly brilliant one, but every single episode where Jake tried to be a reporter made me gag whenever he appeared on the screen.

I mean it only appeared to me that the younger Sisko was resorting enemy propaganda as fact...

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1 minute ago, Vorlonagent said:

I mean it only appeared to me that the younger Sisko was resorting enemy propaganda as fact...

One of many imbecilities I loathed him for. As far as his abilities as investigative reporter went, he ranked somewhere between the Boy who cried Wolf and the Baron von Münchhausen.

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12 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

One of many imbecilities I loathed him for. As far as his abilities as investigative reporter went, he ranked somewhere between the Boy who cried Wolf and the Baron von Münchhausen.

When you're dealing with a police state, an investigative reporter is either imprisoned or killed or is a sock puppet for the state.  Sisko didn't even realize he was a sock puppet.

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1 hour ago, partner555 said:

Hey, is that Jerry's reincarnation in panel 2?

Might be. Definitely looks similar.

23 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:
37 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

One of many imbecilities I loathed him for. As far as his abilities as investigative reporter went, he ranked somewhere between the Boy who cried Wolf and the Baron von Münchhausen.

When you're dealing with a police state, an investigative reporter is either imprisoned or killed or is a sock puppet for the state.  Sisko didn't even realize he was a sock puppet.

So you agree that he was bad reporter?

(Yes, all good reporters in totalitarian police state are in prison. Or graveyard.)

46 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

About the comic itself: I love the character interactions. Poor Diane. And Justin is actually being pretty big in trying to calm her and giving her helpful advice.

Which is amazing considering his low opinion of her.

Dan said:

In my opinion, the show really found its stride in season four, which is when Worf got to show up and do stuff without being overshadowed by Picard all the time like on The Next Generation.

The first two seasons were definitely low quality. I think it started to get better with Defiant and really went better with season four, however I'm not sure if it's due to Worf ; I consider more important that in The Way of the Warrior, the station is ACTUALLY ARMED, so Sisko is not limited to bluffing. The battle is in sharp contrast with say episode 3 in second season, where Sisko must be hiding because of three Bajoran scout ships.

 

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40 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

So you agree that he was bad reporter?

(Yes, all good reporters in totalitarian police state are in prison. Or graveyard.)

Agreed that Jake Sisko was a bad reporter?  "Agree" is such a mild word...

Jake Sisko was what Adolph Hitler would call a "useful idiot." (IIRC Hitler used "useful idiot" to describe heads of state.  i am expanding his usage slightly to include anybody who, in defiance of reasonable expectations of intelligence and perception, intentionally gives aid to a repressive nation-state while deceiving themselves that they are serving higher, nobler ends)

40 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

The first two seasons were definitely low quality. I think it started to get better with Defiant and really went better with season four, however I'm not sure if it's due to Worf ; I consider more important that in The Way of the Warrior, the station is ACTUALLY ARMED, so Sisko is not limited to bluffing. The battle is in sharp contrast with say episode 3 in second season, where Sisko must be hiding because of three Bajoran scout ships.

This is why I credit Babylon 5 with much of Deep Space 9's success. Babylon 5 invited head-to-head comparisons forcing DS9 to kick its game up a couple of notches in order to compete once B5 entered its second season.  B5's first season was also pretty bad.

DS9 added the Defiant after Babylon 5 added the White Star.  They instituted their quadrant-spanning Dominion War after Babylon 5 introduced the Shadow War and both Minbari and Earth Alliance civil wars.   In fairness to DS9, they stole like artists, making these things their own.  It was just a little obvious who they were borrowing from.  :)

Another important element to DS9's success was Star Trek Voyager.  Voyager seemed to occupy the majority of Rick Berman's attention.  DS9 was an afterthought.  Since I blame Berman for the shallowness of DS9's first couple seasons (and all of Voyager's and Enterprise's and some of TNG's...), removing his influence was a huge plus for DS9.  You always want the pointy-haired boss micromanaging someone else's project.  Voyager suffered so DS9 didn't have to.

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1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

This is why I credit Babylon 5 with much of Deep Space 9's success. Babylon 5 invited head-to-head comparisons forcing DS9 to kick its game up a couple of notches in order to compete once B5 entered its second season.  B5's first season was also pretty bad.

DS9 added the Defiant after Babylon 5 added the White Star.  They instituted their quadrant-spanning Dominion War after Babylon 5 introduced the Shadow War and both Minbari and Earth Alliance civil wars.   In fairness to DS9, they stole like artists, making these things their own.  It was just a little obvious who they were borrowing from.  :)

Hmmm ... I don't have personal experience with the timing but let's google ... this seems good. DS9’s Defiant showed up in the third season premiere, on September 26th, 1994. The White Star class showed up (as far as I can tell from the wiki and the bullet) in the B5 third season premiere a year later on November 6th, 1995.

I would agree that the competition was incentive for both shows to get better. I think the stealing of ideas was in both direction, though.

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

Another important element to DS9's success was Star Trek Voyager.  Voyager seemed to occupy the majority of Rick Berman's attention.  DS9 was an afterthought.  Since I blame Berman for the shallowness of DS9's first couple seasons (and all of Voyager's and Enterprise's and some of TNG's...), removing his influence was a huge plus for DS9.  You always want the pointy-haired boss micromanaging someone else's project.  Voyager suffered so DS9 didn't have to.

I can't fully agree with this. At least part of the blame for Voyager goes definitely to Brannon Braga.

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1 hour ago, hkmaly said:
3 hours ago, partner555 said:

Hey, is that Jerry's reincarnation in panel 2?

Might be. Definitely looks similar.

And here I thought that it reminds me of Duck sans cap.

Diane is flustered, Justin needs some intervention. Or at least some better clues about Susan. Then again, who knows Susan best?

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1 hour ago, hkmaly said:
3 hours ago, partner555 said:

Hey, is that Jerry's reincarnation in panel 2?

Might be. Definitely looks similar.

Maybe, I dunno, while it wouldn't be the first time Immortals posed as students to keep an eye on members of the cast, it was somewhat more obvious to us who they were. Seems at this time there's more evidence that the mysterious wallflower might be related to Duck.

3 hours ago, The Old Hack said:
3 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

I disliked "Jake Sisko, Ace War Reporter" but that's a personal thing.

You did? I am disappointed in you.

I did not merely dislike him. I loathed him. So much. There were a few good Jake Sisko stories and one outstandingly brilliant one, but every single episode where Jake tried to be a reporter made me gag whenever he appeared on the screen.

While Jake could have been done better, he certainly could have been done worse.:cough:wesleycrusher:cough:

2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Which is amazing considering his low opinion of her.

Justin could have told Susan all about how Diane treated him and her behaviour in school, but he didn't want to taint their meeting. He's Susan's friend so of course he doesn't have any desire to sabotage the meeting. I'm also really hoping that Diane has realized at some point how she treated Justin and apologizes to him.

 

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30 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Hmmm ... I don't have personal experience with the timing but let's google ... this seems good. DS9’s Defiant showed up in the third season premiere, on September 26th, 1994. The White Star class showed up (as far as I can tell from the wiki and the bullet) in the B5 third season premiere a year later on November 6th, 1995.

OK I was wrong.  I even thought I had looked up the timing of the two ships years ago to confirm, too.

30 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

I would agree that the competition was incentive for both shows to get better. I think the stealing of ideas was in both direction, though.

I would agree in theory.  Both ought to crib notes from each other.  But in practice I don't remember anything in Babylon 5 that looks like it came from Deep Space 9 (which is not to say there was nothing). Either B5 hid their influences better or they didn't steal much.  DS9 may not have stolen anything else besides the Shadow War.  (I am intentionally setting aside B5 fan accusations that DS9's concept came from B5 creator JMS' pitching B5 to Paramount.  Not opening that can of worms)

There are some format differences too.  B5 was always intended as a massive 5-year story arc whereas all of the Trek Franchise shows were much more as episodic TV.

30 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

I can't fully agree with this. At least part of the blame for Voyager goes definitely to Brannon Braga.

There's blame enough for both Berman and Braga.  But Berman was the boss.  The captain's always responsible.

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6 minutes ago, Scotty said:

While Jake could have been done better, he certainly could have been done worse.:cough:wesleycrusher:cough:

Wesley Crusher was Gene Roddenberry's Marty Stu.  Jake Sisko was spared that at least.

But I would say the only worse example of useful idiocy I've seen, was Jar-Jar Binks introducing Galactic Senate Legislation to make Palpatine an Emperor.

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The Moderator: Ahem. Perhaps the science fiction discussion could be moved to the Off Topic forum? Today's comic has barely had a chance to be mentioned and while I ordinarily do not mind this kind of topic drift, I would like to see the comic in question to at least get a chance to be the topic of discussion.

~tOH.

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Hmm, if Susan finds out Diane doesn't even know what DS9 is, will this be a wedge between them, or a chance for bonding?  

What would Susan have to do with Diane in exchange for Diane agreeing to doing something so nerdy?  Shop for skimpy clothes?  Talk about "real" relationships?

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1 minute ago, CritterKeeper said:

Hmm, if Susan finds out Diane doesn't even know what DS9 is, will this be a wedge between them, or a chance for bonding

Marathon time, perhaps? Diane has on occasion made attempts to hide the fact that she's interested in geeky stuff, but would she put up that facade in front of Susan?

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2 hours ago, demonhunter said:

Justin forgot the most important thing.

"No touchy"

... that could be dangerous omission. Of course, he already forgot once ...

2 hours ago, Scotty said:

Maybe, I dunno, while it wouldn't be the first time Immortals posed as students to keep an eye on members of the cast, it was somewhat more obvious to us who they were. Seems at this time there's more evidence that the mysterious wallflower might be related to Duck.

They also reset improperly. Might be overdoing it.

2 hours ago, Scotty said:
4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Which is amazing considering his low opinion of her.

Justin could have told Susan all about how Diane treated him and her behaviour in school, but he didn't want to taint their meeting. He's Susan's friend so of course he doesn't have any desire to sabotage the meeting. I'm also really hoping that Diane has realized at some point how she treated Justin and apologizes to him.

THAT one might've still be that he just wanted Diane to crash it herself. THIS one is convincing me he really wants to help.

1 hour ago, Scotty said:
2 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

Hmm, if Susan finds out Diane doesn't even know what DS9 is, will this be a wedge between them, or a chance for bonding

Marathon time, perhaps? Diane has on occasion made attempts to hide the fact that she's interested in geeky stuff, but would she put up that facade in front of Susan?

Yes, it would only be chance for bonding if Diane would be willing to do the marathon.

And while Diane has her geeky moments, I think they are more related to fantasy, not sci-fi. Is there any fantasy we know Susan knows?

2 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

Perhaps the science fiction discussion could be moved to the Off Topic forum?

 

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9 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

And while Diane has her geeky moments, I think they are more related to fantasy, not sci-fi. Is there any fantasy we know Susan knows?

She's aware of a Xena RPG. I would imagine she knows about D&D and such. As far as TV/movies go, we know she didn't like Princess Bride, don't know Diane's opinion of it though.

It would be interesting to see how Diane reacts after a Trek marathon. Would she like it? Would she hate it? Would she have the same opinion Susan has about it including all the nitpicks? Susan wouldn't expect Diane to like the things she likes so even if Diane ended up not being interested, as long as Diane didn't say it sucked or anything like that, Susan probably wouldn't hold it against her.

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6 hours ago, Sjmcc13 said:

Where has '... aEdind I know Grace" been used before? it is familiar but I can not remember the scene.

I need to second this. I know I've seen this before, but I don't remember when, and I don't have time to search for it. Best I can do is that it was a conversation between members of the main group. this is going to drive me crazy until I figure it out.

Edit: I found it!

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16 minutes ago, Scotty said:

She's aware of a Xena RPG. I would imagine she knows about D&D and such.

Well ... I meant little deeper knowledge.

17 minutes ago, Scotty said:

It would be interesting to see how Diane reacts after a Trek marathon. Would she like it? Would she hate it? Would she have the same opinion Susan has about it including all the nitpicks?

Would she RECOGNIZE the nitpicks? If it would be only sci-fi she knows, she would be at disadvantage.

13 minutes ago, Alwaysnewguy said:

I need to second this. I know I've seen this before, but I don't remember when, and I don't have time to search for it. Best I can do is that it was a conversation between members of the main group. this is going to drive me crazy until I figure it out.

Edit: I found it!

If it's driving someone crazy it must go on wiki.

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1 minute ago, hkmaly said:

Would she RECOGNIZE the nitpicks? If it would be only sci-fi she knows, she would be at disadvantage.

Elliot was able to catch a plot hole. I wouldn't put it past Diane to catch inconsistencies and whatnot.  Though if Diane has paid attention to the review shows, she should have some idea what Trek is.

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8 minutes ago, Scotty said:
14 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Would she RECOGNIZE the nitpicks? If it would be only sci-fi she knows, she would be at disadvantage.

Elliot was able to catch a plot hole. I wouldn't put it past Diane to catch inconsistencies and whatnot.

He also commented that if he was able to notice, it must've been BIG one.

8 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Though if Diane has paid attention to the review shows, she should have some idea what Trek is.

Star Trek? Definitely. However, DS9 specifically might've not been mentioned that often.

Note that Justin said "Deep Space Nine", not "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine", meaning he withhold important clue from Diane. (Also, would sound weird if he actually said "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine")

Hmmm ... actually there is another pitfall. Diane might saw some Star Trek movie - it would make more sense to her than to watch few episodes from series if she wanted to see what's it about. Now, if it was one of the NEW movies ...

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4 hours ago, demonhunter said:

Justin forgot the most important thing.

"No touchy"

Susan vs. Diane: Touchies in Canon

Susan

  1. Jerry in Hammerchlorians
  2. Sarah in Identity.
  3. Sarah in Identity.
  4. Web-based hand-holding with Justin in Identity.
  5. Nanase and then Tedd in Playing With Dolls.
  6. Nanase's fairy (transformed to look like Susan) in Playing With Dolls.

Susan's Fairies

  1. Sarah in Hammerchlorians.
  2. Nanase in Hammerchlorians.
  3. Susan's fairy hugging Nanase's fairy in Playing With Dolls.
  4. Susan's Grace fairy nesting in Justin's hair Wednesday after school.

Diane

  1. Rhoda and then Grace in Sister II.
  2. Rhoda again in Death Sentence.
  3. Rhoda yet again in End of an Era.
  4. Rhea in Family Ties.
  5. Nanase in So a Date at the Mall
  6. Charlotte in So a Date at the Mall.

So if we don't count fairies, Diane and Susan are even, touchy-wise.

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