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Scotty

Story, Monday November 20, 2017

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19 hours ago, hkmaly said:

In finite multiverse, no way. Problem with alternates is that divergences multiply itself. Butterfly effect and stuff. Your birth depends not only on your parents, but on ALL your ancestors having sex together, despite lot of them having lot of other options. And even in infinite universe, unless you specifically SEARCH for those alternates, you are much more likely to NOT find them.

Of course, lord Tedd WAS searching ...

It's even worse in those "evil duplicate" universes. In universe where good people are evil and evil people are good, completely different people will die and the universes diverges very quickly.

If the actual universes in the Multiverse were "selected" at random from all the possibilities, then the chances of anyone having an alternate in another universe would be slim. However the fact that we know Elliot and Tedd have alternates in almost every alternate world we've seen (as of the confirmation of Magus and Terra being alternates of them, the only alternate world we know anything about they haven't been confirmed to be in is the Griffon's world, and that isn't even an entirely separate world) suggests that either a significant number of the EGS universes were "selected" from a group of fairly similar possibilities or that there is some force making those two extremely likely to be born.

...In the process of composing this post I realized that the only other people besides Elliot and Tedd we've seen in more than one canon universe are Nioi/Kaoli and the original human Grace (and possibly "Shade Tail", though personally I don't think our Grace and General Shade Tail count as alternates) - and each of those we've only seen in two worlds. Furthermore, realistically speaking, the differences between the worlds we've seen are great enough that it would be strange for the same people to be born in them. Now I'm starting to suspect maybe there really is something special about Elliot and Tedd...

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3 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

If the actual universes in the Multiverse were "selected" at random from all the possibilities, then the chances of anyone having an alternate in another universe would be slim.

3 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

Furthermore, realistically speaking, the differences between the worlds we've seen are great enough that it would be strange for the same people to be born in them. Now I'm starting to suspect maybe there really is something special about Elliot and Tedd...

I find more likely that Lord Tedd is doing the selecting in very nonrandom way, leaving just Magus and Terra as truly random ... and maybe not even that, as there may be some reason why Magus ended on world where his alternate exists.

Note however, that there may be some correlations - like, universe with recognizable Tedd may have high probability of Elliot's existence. Or maybe all universes with Tedd and no Elliot have Tedd so withdrawn he doesn't need to be targeted (Lord Tedd universe is exception because Elliot WAS there).

 

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Okay, I'm going to piggy-back on an idea I came across elsewhere, and add to it.

There are an infinite number of realities - they are constantly spinning off each other, with each little instances when a choice of any sort was made. However, exceedingly-similar universes merge back into each other fairly quickly (and this may be part of why memories of details of unimportant events get hazy - merging of realities where those details were slightly different).

Now, what I add to that. It's about communication between realities. Basically, my idea is that you can't open a communication path which is too much different from the one you're in - as perceived by you. For starters, you can't communicate on your own with any reality that does not contain an alternate-you... although you may be able to join in on someone else's connection after it's established. Of course, as close as Elliot and Tedd are, Tedd may not be able to communicate with an Elliot-less reality. (Exactly how different the realities can be and still be in contact, is not clearly defined.)

 

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6 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

There are an infinite number of realities - they are constantly spinning off each other, with each little instances when a choice of any sort was made. However, exceedingly-similar universes merge back into each other fairly quickly (and this may be part of why memories of details of unimportant events get hazy - merging of realities where those details were slightly different).

Memories get hazy because human memory is unreliable. It doesn't have anything to do with merging of realities. No event is unimportant until SOMEONE assigns importance to it - objectively unimportant events can only exists in universe micromanaged by God. Also, butterfly effect: differences don't go smaller, they go bigger, and while lot of them don't MATTER, which matters is distinction which can only be made looking back from end of time. (Which, of course, doesn't end.)

6 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

Basically, my idea is that you can't open a communication path which is too much different from the one you're in - as perceived by you.

Can work if you open a path with spell. If it's device, those can't detect what you perceive.

 

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1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Memories get hazy because human memory is unreliable. It doesn't have anything to do with merging of realities.

That's how it is in this reality, one without magic, or Time Lords or sliders or whatever else might lead to more changes.

Quote

butterfly effect: differences don't go smaller, they go bigger, and while lot of them don't MATTER, which matters is distinction which can only be made looking back from end of time. (Which, of course, doesn't end.)

The butterfly has limitations.  When the butterfly is in a canyon which directs the wind down its length, the flapping is not going to cause the wind to turn the other direction, no matter how long or how hard the poor thing flaps.  It might be able to redirect a few molecules by a very slight change in velocity, but for that tiny effect to create a hurricane in Florida would take such a long series of interactions that butterflies would be extinct and forgotten by then!

Quote

Can work if you open a path with spell. If it's device, those can't detect what you perceive.

Depends on how much guidance the device is given by the operator.  A sailing ship can be steered towards islands the lookout can perceive or the navigator has on their map.  There might be a perfectly lovely island that isn't in the map and is mistaken for a cloud bank or hidden by the glint of the sun on the water.  If the device gives information to the operator, but relies on the subjective interpretation of that data, then the operator can have an enormous impact on how that device is used and what it finds.

 

   I originally typed the word "hurricane" as "hurticane."  This seems like it should be a word, perhaps for especially damaging hurricanes like Katrina.

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2 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

It might be able to redirect a few molecules by a very slight change in velocity, but for that tiny effect to create a hurricane in Florida would take such a long series of interactions that butterflies would be extinct and forgotten by then!

Actually mathematicians in Copenhagen have determined that the hurricane that hit Denmark on December 3, 1999, killing 20 people and doing some 3 billion dollars US worth of property damage was caused by a smilodon farting sometime around 15000 BC. Don't underrate those butterflies. Our descendants may yet come to rue their patient malice.

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3 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

When the butterfly is in a canyon which directs the wind down its length, the flapping is not going to cause the wind to turn the other direction, no matter how long or how hard the poor thing flaps.  It might be able to redirect a few molecules by a very slight change in velocity, but for that tiny effect to create a hurricane in Florida would take such a long series of interactions that butterflies would be extinct and forgotten by then!

The Butterfly that triggered Darth Irma better hope it's already extinct.  Otherwise I and a few million  of my neighbors are going to give it such a stomping.

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7 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:
9 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Memories get hazy because human memory is unreliable. It doesn't have anything to do with merging of realities.

That's how it is in this reality, one without magic, or Time Lords or sliders or whatever else might lead to more changes.

 

She said it exactly: that's ridiculous.

Of course, it may work that way in universe with Time Lords. True time travel in general requires some ridiculous components. Visiting other realities which just LOOK as your reality in past is ok, but time travel which can actually change past needs some rules capable of smoothing out paradoxes.

Note that time travel is impossible in EGS.

7 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:
Quote

butterfly effect: differences don't go smaller, they go bigger, and while lot of them don't MATTER, which matters is distinction which can only be made looking back from end of time. (Which, of course, doesn't end.)

The butterfly has limitations.  When the butterfly is in a canyon which directs the wind down its length, the flapping is not going to cause the wind to turn the other direction, no matter how long or how hard the poor thing flaps.  It might be able to redirect a few molecules by a very slight change in velocity, but for that tiny effect to create a hurricane in Florida would take such a long series of interactions that butterflies would be extinct and forgotten by then!

Taking aside the fact it's not just about butterflies: problem is that the change HAPPENED. One of hurricanes observed this year would go different direction if butterfly several thousands or millions years ago flapped differently ... which means the universe where it flapped differently is still separate from our universe, thousands or millions year later.

4 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:
7 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

When the butterfly is in a canyon which directs the wind down its length, the flapping is not going to cause the wind to turn the other direction, no matter how long or how hard the poor thing flaps.  It might be able to redirect a few molecules by a very slight change in velocity, but for that tiny effect to create a hurricane in Florida would take such a long series of interactions that butterflies would be extinct and forgotten by then!

The Butterfly that triggered Darth Irma better hope it's already extinct.  Otherwise I and a few million  of my neighbors are going to give it such a stomping.

It may not be extinct species but the individual butterfly is definitely dead. Butterflies live how long, few years? Wait, can butterfly live longer that ONE year?

7 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:
Quote

Can work if you open a path with spell. If it's device, those can't detect what you perceive.

Depends on how much guidance the device is given by the operator.  A sailing ship can be steered towards islands the lookout can perceive or the navigator has on their map.  There might be a perfectly lovely island that isn't in the map and is mistaken for a cloud bank or hidden by the glint of the sun on the water.  If the device gives information to the operator, but relies on the subjective interpretation of that data, then the operator can have an enormous impact on how that device is used and what it finds.

That sounds well except we are dealing with infinities here. Human senses don't have infinite resolution. No matter HOW you steer it, if you do it based on something you are getting through your senses it means the device is doing some prefiltering and only shows you limited (finite) amount of options ... which may already lack any reality with your alternate considering how unlikely his existence is.

Spells don't have this limitation, maybe devices which are controlled directly by some brain-computer interfaces don't either. There may be unconscious two-directional process which goes over the whole infinity and only selects universes with your alternate ...

Note that Tedd likely 1) used spell 2) deliberately searched for other Tedds. While Magus 1) used spell.

 

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4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

She said it exactly: that's ridiculous.

Now you're getting it!  ;-)

4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Of course, it may work that way in universe with Time Lords.

Exactly.  And we don't know how things work in a universe with EGS-style magic.  We just know that it would be ridiculous to expect it to work the same way it does in our universe that doesn't have EGS-style magic.

4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

That sounds well except we are dealing with infinities here. Human senses don't have infinite resolution. No matter HOW you steer it, if you do it based on something you are getting through your senses it means the device is doing some prefiltering and only shows you limited (finite) amount of options ... which may already lack any reality with your alternate considering how unlikely his existence is.

There may be an infinite number of universes, but they're not necessarily all equally perceptible or accessible.  If every random chance or choice splits the universe, then it makes sense to me that universes with fewer changes versus the one you start in would in some way be "closer" than those which split off millions of years ago and have been different ever since.  A universe in which everything is exactly the same except that Elliot was born a blonde would be a lot easier to see from here than one where Adrian was born female, which would be closer than the one where the North American natives discovered and conquered Europe.

Universes might sometimes show convergent evolution, like if the entire cast were exactly the same except they were all gender-swapped.  That might end up "closer" and easier to get to than it would if those individual people weren't such a close match.  The ease of access would probable be different to different people, too -- A world with the Main Eight but located in Nairobi instead of Chicagoland would be more easily accessed by the Main Eight than one where a completely different set of eight people were transplanted.

This would be a feature of the universes themselves, so it wouldn't matter whether your access were magical or technological or both, it would still be easier and/or more likely to fund and access worlds that had a duplicate of yourself and your friends than worlds that didn't.

 

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5 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:
Quote

Of course, it may work that way in universe with Time Lords.

Exactly.  And we don't know how things work in a universe with EGS-style magic.  We just know that it would be ridiculous to expect it to work the same way it does in our universe that doesn't have EGS-style magic.

Sure we don't know, but it doesn't NEED to work that way because time travel doesn't work in EGS. And while it probably DOES sort-of work in our universe, it's not easy enough for crowd of tourists coming to historical events on Earth (basically, you can't travel before the point when the time travel device was created, and you need to obtain some exotic matter for that construction).

5 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

There may be an infinite number of universes, but they're not necessarily all equally perceptible or accessible.  If every random chance or choice splits the universe, then it makes sense to me that universes with fewer changes versus the one you start in would in some way be "closer" than those which split off millions of years ago and have been different ever since.  A universe in which everything is exactly the same except that Elliot was born a blonde would be a lot easier to see from here than one where Adrian was born female, which would be closer than the one where the North American natives discovered and conquered Europe.

That makes sense, yes.

(The root change allowing for North American natives to conquer Europe would need to happen well before Columbus, and didn't we had reason to suspect Pandora reset after 1500?)

5 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

Universes might sometimes show convergent evolution, like if the entire cast were exactly the same except they were all gender-swapped.  That might end up "closer" and easier to get to than it would if those individual people weren't such a close match.  The ease of access would probable be different to different people, too -- A world with the Main Eight but located in Nairobi instead of Chicagoland would be more easily accessed by the Main Eight than one where a completely different set of eight people were transplanted.

This, meanwhile, doesn't. First, that convergent evolution with gender-swapped group of people is only little more likely than with evil duplicates. Especially in culture which is unfortunately still so full of gender stereotypes as ours. (Well ... ok, the Nairobi one is likely somewhere between gender-swapped and evil ones.)

Second, if the ease-of-access is based on universes being split more recently, it has nothing to do with WHO is opening the portal.

 

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