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Scotty

Story, Monday December 4, 2017

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10 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

I tried to answer it. I probably shouldn't, as it's pretty close to "when did you stopped beating your wife". But I though that if I try to explain my position in reply to this, it will show I want to discus.

I concede that the phrasing was hostile, but the unfortunate fact is that as soon as you baldly stated 'REAL dragons' as opposed to the dragon in the comic, you were by inference also claiming the right to decide which dragons count as real and which do not. And at that point, it becomes impossible to respond to your assumed position. Once one does so, one also cedes you the right to define reality as you please at which point no amount of arguing will ever lead to a fair outcome. :(

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4 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

I concede that the phrasing was hostile

Thank you.

5 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

but the unfortunate fact is that as soon as you baldly stated 'REAL dragons' as opposed to the dragon in the comic, you were by inference also claiming the right to decide which dragons count as real and which do not.

That's not how I meant it, but I see that it could be taken that way.

I should've really explain better right away instead of waiting for next post.

6 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

And at that point, it becomes impossible to respond to your assumed position.

I agree that arguing with that position is impossible. Luckily that wasn't position I held.

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5 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:
7 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

I agree that arguing with that position is impossible. Luckily that wasn't position I held.

Then let's drop it. I am tired and in a bad mood. I'll go sleep a while.

I'm tired AND hungry and my dinner is getting cold. ... so yes let's drop it.

I would still like to discus the point of Noah not exactly proving his abilities to fight aberrations in his fight with Buldog dragon, but probably better not now.

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5 hours ago, hkmaly said:

I would still like to discus the point of Noah not exactly proving his abilities to fight aberrations in his fight with Buldog dragon, but probably better not now.

Noah's fight with the bulldog dragon shows that he is capable of killing at least one type of monster fairly quickly, although he may be thwarted by unusual magical regeneration.  It also shows that someone who knows him and his abilities well expected him to be able to take it out fairly easily, even after a superhero had already been taken ot of the action by it.  And it shows that he's able to change course and adapt his strategy when he realizes an opponent istougher than he though, luring it away from innocent bystanders and towards those who might help defeat it.

It also shows, in his nearly being hit by the fireball aimed at the dojo, that he is not invincible.  If Grace hadn't taken out the caster when she did, he would at the least have been hit by a pretty powerful blast, which had already knocked out said superhero, and Dex seemed to have thought it would be a fatal one at least for Dex.

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6 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

Noah's fight with the bulldog dragon shows that he is capable of killing at least one type of monster fairly quickly, although he may be thwarted by unusual magical regeneration.  It also shows that someone who knows him and his abilities well expected him to be able to take it out fairly easily, even after a superhero had already been taken ot of the action by it.  And it shows that he's able to change course and adapt his strategy when he realizes an opponent istougher than he though, luring it away from innocent bystanders and towards those who might help defeat it.

It also shows, in his nearly being hit by the fireball aimed at the dojo, that he is not invincible.  If Grace hadn't taken out the caster when she did, he would at the least have been hit by a pretty powerful blast, which had already knocked out said superhero, and Dex seemed to have thought it would be a fatal one at least for Dex.

Well, we do know he was training to fight Damien, and Melissa assumed (before the summons proved unkillable by virtue of being pumped full of Immortal power through the summoner) that the bulldog dragon would be easy compared to... we don't know, Melissa didn't get to finish saying what Noah has already fought.  Hmm, makes you curious, doesn't it?  Perhaps an aberration?

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Dragons, oh my.  That is a fine can of wyrms.  Warning, I am going to go off into a long and rambling, but hopefully polite, rant.

Many fantasy writer of European style dragons trace their lineage from Beowulf's Final Battle with the Dragon, which was quite a beast and introduced fire-breathing and horde of gold to the pot.  Have you seen the classic St. George and the Dragon?  It seems like such a small wyrm compared to the Smaug of the Hobbit, but of course, size is not so much an issue; the thing was deadly poisonous and from the legend, threatened to poison the lake if not appeased.  Or the Lambton Worm (Dragon) that the Lair of the White Worm was based on?  It kept reattaching pieces of itself that were cut off, making it ever so difficult to kill.  The real danger, was that once given the way to kill it, the hero had to kill the first thing he saw after dispatching the worm or have his family cursed.  That didn't work out so well.

On the other hand, the eastern dragons are hard to match for power, being more deities with control over water and weather, but they are thought of as symbols of prosperity and good luck, not evil princess-stealers.  And do Mesoamerican Feathered Serpent deities count?  Or the Philippine's Bakunawa that causes eclipses?  Or the Great Horned Serpent of many Native American tribes (this one was so poisonous, the tiniest bit of breath would kill any creature, and to even see one sleeping would bring death to the hunter's family.  Ouch.)

The varieties are amazing and wonderful and I love that about mythology and fantasy.  The problem can arise when you start comparing them.  It's like my son talking up One Punch Man as so overpowered that he could take on Superman.  The point, I tell him, is not how powerful each is, but in their universe, how interesting are the stories?  My daughter was running a game without rules, and was allowing any type of character.  My son wanted to be a Primordial Being of Knowledge.  She asked me if that was more powerful than a God of Knowledge.  Hoo boy.  I riffed off an answer (Primordial Being know things outside of the universe that can cause madness and can change the rules of the universe but a God of Knowledge knows rules that can bind the Primordial Being.  Now, who gets initiative.)  I then gave her ways to have such a character but keep it balanced in a role-playing group of beings of mixed power levels (for example, have it trapped in the body of a little girl and most of the power kept in check except in the presence of certain kinds of danger, i.e. the-younger-and-more-helpless-the-more-powerful-it-is trope, not sure what the real name is).

Bottomline, the Moperverse has a certain power level, and Dan tries to keep certain balance.  The bulldog dragon was challenging and dangerous to the protagonists.  It worked well in the story.  Sucess!

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1 hour ago, Tuscahoma said:

Well, we do know he was training to fight Damien, and Melissa assumed (before the summons proved unkillable by virtue of being pumped full of Immortal power through the summoner) that the bulldog dragon would be easy

Oh, right, this is where I had the easy from.

Both Noah and Melissa assumed the fight will be easy. That shows confidence, but without knowing how much experience Noah has, we don't know if it was justified or misplaced.

We, however, know that Damien was VERY overconfident.

1 hour ago, Tuscahoma said:

easy compared to... we don't know, Melissa didn't get to finish saying what Noah has already fought.  Hmm, makes you curious, doesn't it?  Perhaps an aberration?

You know, if Noah actually did fought an aberration ... with summoned weapons, which likely counted as supereffective against it ... his chances against single aberration might be quite good. However, I little suspect that he would scream "that's not fair" if another would attack him from back. Especially considering that aberrations are usually NOT attacking in group, so there is good reason to not expect it.

9 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

Noah's fight with the bulldog dragon shows that he is capable of killing at least one type of monster fairly quickly

We can't be sure how long the fight took. But what we see is that from start, Noah was trying to snap the dragon's neck. Which might be only strategy against such monster available to him based on what weapons he had, of course ... not much space for adaptation.

9 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

although he may be thwarted by unusual magical regeneration.

There is REASON why some fighters are taught to keep fighting to the overkill, see tvtropes: The point of being taught to keep fighting past the point of theoretically winning is two-fold. Firstly, just because you do a beheading strike, doesn't mean that you cut a guy's head off. Maybe he dodges or blocks or has something protecting his neck. So you keep moving through the sequence and hit him someplace else immediately afterwards. That's why they teach katas and not just decapitation. Secondly, while it is certain that cutting a guy's head off will make him die immediately, if he was in the middle of a strike when you do it (which is pretty likely since people open themselves up during an attack) he maybe has enough momentum to stick a sword or a spear through some squishy part of your body. It's pretty unlikely but it genuinely can happen. If you keep your form and keep hitting him, you are alert to any possible pointy things and are likely to push him backwards instead.

I suspect that Noah didn't get this lesson yet. Sure, the magic regeneration was unusual, but he could've died on his surprise if not for Justin.

9 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

It also shows that someone who knows him and his abilities well expected him to be able to take it out fairly easily, even after a superhero had already been taken ot of the action by it.

We don't know what was Voltaire's goal for the fight, or how tight control he had over the dragon. Maybe he didn't expected Noah to show at all. Maybe the dragon was ORDERED to not use fireball (although ... the fight might simply be to fast for such attack - seems the fireball took a while to form). Elliot, meanwhile ... shielding traffic with himself is very hero move, noble, but also "lawful stupid" ; logically, sacrificing yourself in way which don't eliminate your opponent means your opponent could just launch another attack after you are dead. And I'm sure this move was predicted, as it's very Elliot.

9 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

And it shows that he's able to change course and adapt his strategy when he realizes an opponent istougher than he though, luring it away from innocent bystanders and towards those who might help defeat it.

He wasn't sure the luring would work. But yes, that was quite fast adaptation.

... I think he was little showing off, to Mellisa maybe.

9 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

It also shows, in his nearly being hit by the fireball aimed at the dojo, that he is not invincible.  If Grace hadn't taken out the caster when she did, he would at the least have been hit by a pretty powerful blast, which had already knocked out said superhero, and Dex seemed to have thought it would be a fatal one at least for Dex.

If Noah was training against Damien, he SHOULD consider fire resistance. Maybe he would survive even without the regeneration Cheerleadra had.

And again, we are not sure what was Voltaire's goal at that point. Wasn't he trying to kill ELLIOT? Or was he trying to kill Grace at that point? Who IS fair-resistant, but maybe not enough ...

1 hour ago, Tuscahoma said:

Many fantasy writer of European style dragons trace their lineage from Beowulf's Final Battle with the Dragon, which was quite a beast and introduced fire-breathing and horde of gold to the pot.  Have you seen the classic St. George and the Dragon?  It seems like such a small wyrm compared to the Smaug of the Hobbit, but of course, size is not so much an issue; the thing was deadly poisonous and from the legend, threatened to poison the lake if not appeased.  Or the Lambton Worm (Dragon) that the Lair of the White Worm was based on?  It kept reattaching pieces of itself that were cut off, making it ever so difficult to kill.  The real danger, was that once given the way to kill it, the hero had to kill the first thing he saw after dispatching the worm or have his family cursed.  That didn't work out so well.

On the other hand, the eastern dragons are hard to match for power, being more deities with control over water and weather, but they are thought of as symbols of prosperity and good luck, not evil princess-stealers.

It's interesting what happened when combining them indeed. Unless there was some other reason than eastern dragons why the western ones got upgrade when RPG came.

It's like some monsters being constant but some lucky ones being allowed to be upgraded to up to demigod levels. Dragons, vampires, fairies ... if your story needs them cannon fodder, you are allowed to do it. If your story needs them demigod, you are also allowed. You can even deploy swamp dragons and Draco Nobilis (or wyverns and metalic dragons, or fire lizard and dragons ... or, in case of vampires, artificial vampires and "true" vampires like Alucard) and have it both ways.

1 hour ago, Tuscahoma said:

The varieties are amazing and wonderful and I love that about mythology and fantasy.  The problem can arise when you start comparing them.  It's like my son talking up One Punch Man as so overpowered that he could take on Superman.  The point, I tell him, is not how powerful each is, but in their universe, how interesting are the stories?

That's definitely more important in the story. Nevertheless, crossovers are popular. People LIKE comparing their heroes.

Also, the story STOPS being interesting if author simply plays with the power level of hero to make all fights evenly matched. There are allowed methods, element of surprise, unusual weapons, specific weakness, but generally, hero is supposed to have predictable power level.

1 hour ago, Tuscahoma said:

Bottomline, the Moperverse has a certain power level, and Dan tries to keep certain balance.  The bulldog dragon was challenging and dangerous to the protagonists.  It worked well in the story.  Sucess!

Yes, the fight definitely worked well. And that's despite Dan not having that much experience with describing fights and generally trying to not write fighting-based comic (which is good idea, as there is no shortage of fighting based comics around ...)

Throwing Beowulf's-based dragon against Noah (or, well, against Moperville) would NOT work well. Eastern or fantasy based one, even less so. Also, even with Voltaire powering him, wouldn't Dex being able to summon something like that overpowered? So, it's definitely better for story if the beast, despite being called dragon, is on the lower end of power for dragons and might barely qualify as dragon compared to them (which is what I meant with the unlucky "not a real dragon" formulation ; it wasn't trying to claim the right to define what is real, much less in the "existing" sense, I'm sure many would agree with the distinction when faced with same comparison).

I'm sure cities in Magus's world wouldn't bother installing dragon sirens if all they faced would be buldog dragons. Our city doesn't have tornado sirens for similar reason.

 

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Just now, hkmaly said:

We, however, know that Damien was VERY overconfident.

Yeah, but fortunately Grace was fireproof in her omega form, and her Lespuko claws thwarted his regeneration ability,

Noah might still have had difficulty killing Damien if he had been able to confront him. But that's purely speculation since Damien is gone now...

Although Adrian did feel Grace was strong enough to kill 12 Damiens or 1 Super Damien so that could mean that Noah was strong enough to kill 1 Damien.

Or half a Damien, I dunno lol.

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36 minutes ago, Scotty said:
44 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

We, however, know that Damien was VERY overconfident.

Yeah, but fortunately Grace was fireproof in her omega form, and her Lespuko claws thwarted his regeneration ability,

Although Adrian did feel Grace was strong enough to kill 12 Damiens or 1 Super Damien so that could mean that Noah was strong enough to kill 1 Damien.

That fight with Damien wasn't really fair. Grace had clear upper hand until she started regretting how effective she is. I would believe Adrian's experience in evaluating power levels, and he likely didn't calculated her being fireproof into that.

Noah is not afraid to kill. If Noah would be strong enough to kill one Damien, he would do it.

38 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Noah might still have had difficulty killing Damien if he had been able to confront him. But that's purely speculation since Damien is gone now...

38 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Or half a Damien, I dunno lol.

It's definitely speculation of course, but I think it would be hard fight for him unless he had some spell targeted specifically at Damien.

 

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6 hours ago, Tuscahoma said:

Dragons, oh my.  That is a fine can of wyrms. 

I love you. :D

Scandinavia has its own share of dragons or wyrms. There was the great serpent that lay coiled around the tower the maiden Thyra was trapped in; apart from its massive size, it spewed mortal clouds of poison and even its blood was so deadly that if even a single drop of it touched your skin you would suffer an agonising death. It was slain by Regnar Lodbrokk, so named for the heavy suit he sewed together from the furs of bears and which protected him for long enough so he could slay the serpent. There was Nidhogg that lay coiled around the roots of Yggdrasil the World Tree and gnawed at them. And not least the Midgard Serpent which lay coiled around the whole world and bit its own tail.

6 hours ago, Tuscahoma said:

(for example, have it trapped in the body of a little girl and most of the power kept in check except in the presence of certain kinds of danger, i.e. the-younger-and-more-helpless-the-more-powerful-it-is trope, not sure what the real name is).

Several spring to mind; the most immediately obvious of them is Tyke Bomb.

6 hours ago, Tuscahoma said:

Bottomline, the Moperverse has a certain power level, and Dan tries to keep certain balance.  The bulldog dragon was challenging and dangerous to the protagonists.  It worked well in the story.  Sucess!

Very well put. :)

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Quote

You know, if Noah actually did fought an aberration ... with summoned weapons, which likely counted as supereffective against it ...

As I recall, it isn't that summoned weapons per se are super-effective against aberrations... rather, they are inherently magic weapons, and magic weapons are super-effective against aberrations. Yeah, that's more or less what Susan said.

It's likely that Raven has some enchantments on his swords and canes, so they would also be magic weapons.

(Summoned weapons are easier to get past security though.)

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3 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

It's likely that Raven has some enchantments on his swords and canes, so they would also be magic weapons.

Likely, but it's not like he NEED it. He can kill the vampires with his murder shroud.

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12 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

I love you. :D

Scandinavia has its own share of dragons or wyrms. There was the great serpent that lay coiled around the tower the maiden Thyra was trapped in; apart from its massive size, it spewed mortal clouds of poison and even its blood was so deadly that if even a single drop of it touched your skin you would suffer an agonising death. It was slain by Regnar Lodbrokk, so named for the heavy suit he sewed together from the furs of bears and which protected him for long enough so he could slay the serpent. There was Nidhogg that lay coiled around the roots of Yggdrasil the World Tree and gnawed at them. And not least the Midgard Serpent which lay coiled around the whole world and bit its own tail.

Thanks!  Have to admit, the pun had to be made. ;)

Oh my gosh yes, the mythology of Scandinavia has so many fun stories and beasties, is it any wonder Tolkien drew so much from that region's mythos.

A friend of mine, who was such a self-avowed English nerd that she got her Ph.D. in Old English, mentioned that to really understand Tolkien, Christian influences weren't enough.  You had to understand the Norse influences including the mindset born from the belief that Ragnarok would end everything (where the Dragon Jormugand and Thor would kill each other), but you still fought on. Cool stuff.

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Tolkein also, as I understand it, took a lot from Finnish mythology. And Finnish is really different - their language isn't even regarded as Indo-European. (Indo-European includes all Romance, Germanic, Celtic, and Slavic languages. And many of the languages of India, Pakistan, and Iran. Among others. Just under half the world's humans natively speak an Indo-European language.)

In one regard Tolkein gets more credit for creativity than he deserves. In The Hobbit, most of the adventuring dwarves' names are taken directly from various minor Germanic languages and mean "dwarf".

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3 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

In one regard Tolkein gets more credit for creativity than he deserves. In The Hobbit, most of the adventuring dwarves' names are taken directly from various minor Germanic languages and mean "dwarf".

I still give him a pass for that. Just taking the time to find close to a dozen different words for 'dwarf' in as many different Germanic dialects is not bad research. Also, I have experienced what it is like when you have to name dozens of characters in a short time. It gets to be a strain after a while. I was naming NPC merchants for a huge update to our NWN game module. Two poor Oriental merchants ended up being named Ni Hao and Konnichi Wa. :doom:

(Our project leader rightly decided that Asian players might find this a little offensive, so they got renamed before the module was finalised.)

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5 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

Tolkein also, as I understand it, took a lot from Finnish mythology. And Finnish is really different - their language isn't even regarded as Indo-European. (Indo-European includes all Romance, Germanic, Celtic, and Slavic languages. And many of the languages of India, Pakistan, and Iran. Among others. Just under half the world's humans natively speak an Indo-European language.)

In one regard Tolkein gets more credit for creativity than he deserves. In The Hobbit, most of the adventuring dwarves' names are taken directly from various minor Germanic languages and mean "dwarf".

If someone asked me the Finnish word for "dog", I would retreat to Norway.

2 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

Two poor Oriental merchants ended up being named Ni Hao and Konnichi Wa. :doom:

(Our project leader rightly decided that Asian players might find this a little offensive, so they got renamed before the module was finalised.)

Err, Chinese cities are fine enough. Especially the trade ports back then. º3º

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5 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

Tolkein also, as I understand it, took a lot from Finnish mythology. And Finnish is really different - their language isn't even regarded as Indo-European. (Indo-European includes all Romance, Germanic, Celtic, and Slavic languages. And many of the languages of India, Pakistan, and Iran. Among others. Just under half the world's humans natively speak an Indo-European language.)

In one regard Tolkein gets more credit for creativity than he deserves. In The Hobbit, most of the adventuring dwarves' names are taken directly from various minor Germanic languages and mean "dwarf".

Well it's not like Tolkien ever PLANNED to become famous fantasy writer. Originally he was just researching languages.

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12 hours ago, Stature said:

Err, Chinese cities are fine enough. Especially the trade ports back then. º3º

You should see the book I've got hanging in limbo due to my pain problems. For names, I looked up street names in the two ZIP codes I lived in (one in Austin, one in Houston), pulled out the streets that looked like they'd be good people names, and made up a spreadsheet. I played mix and match from there. When the action took place in Houston, mostly Houston names got used. Stuff like that.

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