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Tom Sewell

Monday, December 18, 2017

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While we're on the topic of Pandora's reset, I wanted to mention I'm really hoping that when she does reset, her "Box" (little girl) form becomes her default form. Not only would I hate to see that form go, but it would help signify the fact that she's young again.

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13 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

It was just a thought I had for framing how Pandora could semi-reset.  The whole reasons Immortals reset is because they get too powerful/aware/crazy.  Maybe it's not as simple as letting go, but the question is if there's a way to deal with the madness without starting entirely at Square 1.

From how Pandora was talking when formulating her refresh plan, it seems that she's planning on trying to use the mechanism that Immortals use to pass on knowledge to pass on her emotional attachments. So if the passing on of knowledge is like an encyclopedia that gives you information in a dry, detached manner, then what Pandora is planning to do is a kin to writing a novel to get the reader invested in the characters, to actually care about these people.

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2 hours ago, Drasvin said:
16 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

It was just a thought I had for framing how Pandora could semi-reset.  The whole reasons Immortals reset is because they get too powerful/aware/crazy.  Maybe it's not as simple as letting go, but the question is if there's a way to deal with the madness without starting entirely at Square 1.

From how Pandora was talking when formulating her refresh plan, it seems that she's planning on trying to use the mechanism that Immortals use to pass on knowledge to pass on her emotional attachments. So if the passing on of knowledge is like an encyclopedia that gives you information in a dry, detached manner, then what Pandora is planning to do is a kin to writing a novel to get the reader invested in the characters, to actually care about these people.

That makes sense ... and is obvious how it can still fail.

2 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

While we're on the topic of Pandora's reset, I wanted to mention I'm really hoping that when she does reset, her "Box" (little girl) form becomes her default form. Not only would I hate to see that form go, but it would help signify the fact that she's young again.

We already know she would look older. There was pinup of her.

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11 minutes ago, ChronosCat said:
25 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

We already know she would look older. There was pinup of her.

Dan specifically says in the description that's a disguise. (Also, what makes you think that's set after her reset?)

True. This may still be before the reset. It's just half year before the cast gets to college, right? And it may take Pandora few years to get ready to her attempt on reset ...

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13 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

True. This may still be before the reset. It's just half year before the cast gets to college, right? And it may take Pandora few years to get ready to her attempt on reset ...

It never occurred to me it might be set at the college one or more of the cast was going to; I just figured it was some random sorority Pandora snuck into in the "present day" (probably weeks or months before Sister III).

Also, I'm pretty sure that like NP the Pinups aren't canon unless Dan specifically says they are.

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5 hours ago, ChronosCat said:
5 hours ago, hkmaly said:

True. This may still be before the reset. It's just half year before the cast gets to college, right? And it may take Pandora few years to get ready to her attempt on reset ...

It never occurred to me it might be set at the college one or more of the cast was going to; I just figured it was some random sorority Pandora snuck into in the "present day" (probably weeks or months before Sister III).

The other girl is not Sarah?

5 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

Also, I'm pretty sure that like NP the Pinups aren't canon unless Dan specifically says they are.

They are not, however they still often have some canon elements. The reason they are not canon is that Dan doesn't need to feel bad if he decides to change something, but until they are in conflict with canon, they can still became canon later.

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2 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

The other girl is not Sarah?

It could be her, but without seeing her face it's hard to say. The possibility never even occurred to me before today, and if Dan ever said anything about it I missed it.

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1 minute ago, ChronosCat said:
5 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

The other girl is not Sarah?

It could be her, but without seeing her face it's hard to say. The possibility never even occurred to me before today, and if Dan ever said anything about it I missed it.

Well, I'm not sure if Dan ever said anything about it but the possibility DID occurred to me. And when this pinup happened, we were speculating that this is Pandora after reset helping Sarah in college to learn magic. I was actually explaining that even after reset, Pandora is unlikely to really attend college officially, registered and everything - but, obviously, she can still BE there.

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14 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

While we're on the topic of Pandora's reset, I wanted to mention I'm really hoping that when she does reset, her "Box" (little girl) form becomes her default form. Not only would I hate to see that form go, but it would help signify the fact that she's young again.

I just don't see how a little-girl Pandora would fit into the story.  Who would be her parent-figure?  Adrian?  Mr. Verres?  Hmm, perhaps the Dunkels?  They've coped so well with a previous unexpected child....

6 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Well, I'm not sure if Dan ever said anything about it but the possibility DID occurred to me. And when this pinup happened, we were speculating that this is Pandora after reset helping Sarah in college to learn magic. I was actually explaining that even after reset, Pandora is unlikely to really attend college officially, registered and everything - but, obviously, she can still BE there.

I've been saying since the faux-sociology-student Pandora showed up at Halloween that I hope she's take on that form to go to college as Sarah's roommate.  Jerry came back at an age that fit right in at a college party, after all..  (And he seemed much thinner then -- what has that boy been doing?)

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10 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:
On 12/22/2017 at 3:20 PM, ChronosCat said:

While we're on the topic of Pandora's reset, I wanted to mention I'm really hoping that when she does reset, her "Box" (little girl) form becomes her default form. Not only would I hate to see that form go, but it would help signify the fact that she's young again.

I just don't see how a little-girl Pandora would fit into the story.  Who would be her parent-figure?  Adrian?  Mr. Verres?  Hmm, perhaps the Dunkels?  They've coped so well with a previous unexpected child....

Sarah. It wouldn't be easy for her but she's not going to throw Pandora out.

10 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

I've been saying since the faux-sociology-student Pandora showed up at Halloween that I hope she's take on that form to go to college as Sarah's roommate.

And I was saying that the room assignment department wouldn't accept Pandora's non-existing documents to register her as one, so Sarah would have another roommate.

10 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

Jerry came back at an age that fit right in at a college party, after all..  (And he seemed much thinner then -- what has that boy been doing?)

I don't think he was thinner. Also, I don't think immortals CAN eat.

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2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Sarah. It wouldn't be easy for her but she's not going to throw Pandora out.

That's an awful lot of responsibility and obligation to saddle a teenager with, especially without warning or preparation.  Sure, it happens all the time accidentally, but it's not seen as a good thing for the new mother.  I don't see Pandora as wishing to do that to her friend.

2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

And I was saying that the room assignment department wouldn't accept Pandora's non-existing documents to register her as one, so Sarah would have another roommate.

I'm pretty sure Mr. Verres could help with that, if she needs it.

It might depend on whether she resets improperly, or has a successful reset/refresh where she can make preparations and pass along how to create a new identity to her new self.

2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

I don't think he was thinner. Also, I don't think immortals CAN eat.

I'm pretty sure they can eat, for the taste or to socialize, but I'm quite sure they don't have to eat to survive the way we do.  Wasn't JerZeus talking about drinking at parties?

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58 minutes ago, CritterKeeper said:
3 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Sarah. It wouldn't be easy for her but she's not going to throw Pandora out.

That's an awful lot of responsibility and obligation to saddle a teenager with, especially without warning or preparation.  Sure, it happens all the time accidentally, but it's not seen as a good thing for the new mother.

Yes.

59 minutes ago, CritterKeeper said:

I don't see Pandora as wishing to do that to her friend.

Old Pandora? No.

59 minutes ago, CritterKeeper said:
Quote

And I was saying that the room assignment department wouldn't accept Pandora's non-existing documents to register her as one, so Sarah would have another roommate.

I'm pretty sure Mr. Verres could help with that, if she needs it.

I'm pretty sure Mr. Verres will have justifiable doubts Pandora is genuinely planning to fairly finish university.

Also, I'm not convinced Pandora would WANT such help.

1 hour ago, CritterKeeper said:
Quote

I don't think he was thinner. Also, I don't think immortals CAN eat.

I'm pretty sure they can eat, for the taste or to socialize, but I'm quite sure they don't have to eat to survive the way we do.  Wasn't JerZeus talking about drinking at parties?

Hmmm, I'm not sure. Anyway, the point was that he can't get fat by eating, that the look of his body doesn't have anything to do with what he's doing.

Also, was he? I don't remember. He was talking about crashing some parties, but I don't remember him talking about actually drinking. I don't think alcohol can make him drunk, but yes it is possible he can taste the drinks.

 

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14 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

I just don't see how a little-girl Pandora would fit into the story.  Who would be her parent-figure?  Adrian?  Mr. Verres?  Hmm, perhaps the Dunkels?  They've coped so well with a previous unexpected child....

Why does she need a parent figure? Zeus didn't need anyone to raise him. Just because Box chose to look like a child wouldn't mean she was any more immature than any other newly reset Immortal.

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1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

I'm pretty sure Mr. Verres will have justifiable doubts Pandora is genuinely planning to fairly finish university.

Perhaps, but if she expressed a desire to stay with Sarah as part of her vow, he does seem to put a great deal of stock in that.  And the point wouldn't be for her to earn a degree, although that might be something she'd never done before.  It would be to be with Sarah and help her learn magic.  So what if she doesn't stick with it, not all regular humans do either.

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Also, I'm not convinced Pandora would WANT such help.

Hence the rest of my comments on that, which you did not quote.

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Anyway, the point was that he can't get fat by eating, that the look of his body doesn't have anything to do with what he's doing.

Who said anything about eating?  I certainly didn't.  For humans, there are a lot of other reasons for weight gain, despite what some skinny people want to believe so they can feel superior.

For an Immortal, it would presumably be a choice, either conscious or subconscious.  Perhaps he was hanging out with heavier people and wanted to fit in.  Perhaps he read an article about body image and wanted to avoid putting unintended pressure on anyone.  Perhaps he feels stronger/safer/more prepared/whatever in a body that is more solidly built.  Or perhaps the artist just wasn't completely consistent between one appearance and the next.  It was just idle speculation about what an Immortal might be doing that would cause them to present a skinnier image at one point and a heavier image at another point.

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5 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

Just because Box chose to look like a child wouldn't mean she was any more immature than any other newly reset Immortal.

Just like Hanma?

3 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

Who said anything about eating?  I certainly didn't.  For humans, there are a lot of other reasons for weight gain...

For an Immortal, it would presumably be a choice, either conscious or subconscious.

I am going to throw out an Idea that has gone in and out of my head from time to time.

Immortals begin as humans and may not necessarily discover their immortal nature until later in life.
When an immortal resets, the "default" form to which they reset resembles the form they had when they first awoke their magical nature or when immortality was inflicted upon them.
Zeus, for example, was probably a young man when he first discovered magic.  But aged "normally" until he realized his immortal nature at what would have been a respectable old age for his era.  Now when Zeus resets, he reappears as the young man when he first mastered magic.  But his appearance (not including shapeshifting or disguises) will "age" at an accelerated rate.

This is drawn from a much older idea of mine that Tedd is a young or potential immortal.  I don't think his "Seer" status will necessarily exclude him from nightclubs where the gusts must be over twenty-one decades old.

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On 12/23/2017 at 9:55 PM, CritterKeeper said:
Quote

Anyway, the point was that he can't get fat by eating, that the look of his body doesn't have anything to do with what he's doing.

Who said anything about eating?  I certainly didn't.  For humans, there are a lot of other reasons for weight gain, despite what some skinny people want to believe so they can feel superior.

On 12/23/2017 at 9:55 PM, CritterKeeper said:

It was just idle speculation about what an Immortal might be doing that would cause them to present a skinnier image at one point and a heavier image at another point.

Most often when I hear comment like "what was X doing to get this fat" it is some skinny person implying he was eating too much. X may not even be fat at that point.

On 12/24/2017 at 2:09 AM, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

I am going to throw out an Idea that has gone in and out of my head from time to time.

Immortals begin as humans and may not necessarily discover their immortal nature until later in life.

Very unlikely based on what we know, but of course, not entirely disproved.

On 12/24/2017 at 2:09 AM, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

But his appearance (not including shapeshifting or disguises) will "age" at an accelerated rate.

What makes you think there is ANY appearance of immortal, not including shapeshifting or disguise?

It's true that both Helena and Demetrius and Jerry/Zeus were looking old before reset and young afterwards, but on the other hand, Pandora AND Voltaire doesn't even look as old as those three before reset, despite being older. I think for immortals the "you are as old as you feel" really works.

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On 12/23/2017 at 11:19 AM, ChronosCat said:

Why does she need a parent figure? Zeus didn't need anyone to raise him.

Zeus had a proper reset. Contrast how Helena and Demetrius behave. Of course, given that before they reset they attacked Magus without giving him a chance to plead his case, and their irresponsible manipulation of Nanase and Susan into killing a vampire--which probably caused their forced reset--they were more like crackbrained adoslescents at their maximum maturity than Zeus is is after only a few months.

BTW, while it isn't set in canon, Jerry said it would be awhile before he could start fulfilling his vow, so maybe Jerry's proper reset meant some effective time when he was either metamorphosing like an insect pupa or just not able to interact with the material plane. How much down time Helen and Demetrius may have had is another mystery, but Magus told Ashley that Ellen never seemed to want to zap her brother when Magus was with them. There wasn't a lot of time between the creation of Ellen and Grace's birthday party where Magus finally got Ellen to try to zap her brother, and Helen and Demetrius don't appear at all (except in flashbacks) just before that incident. So maybe they weren't around at all much before that.

But I've opened up a giant plot hole with those premises. If Helen and Demetrius reset two years ago, why did it take Magus so long to get Ellen created? Did Tedd just figure out how to program the FV5 option for the TG gun? And if Helen and Demetrius didn't reset until shortly before Grace's birthday party, why didn't they either destroy Magus or finally learn he really wasn't a monster?

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6 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

which probably caused their forced reset

Why? It was clear case of empower and guide. You may not agree with ethics of what they did, just like Jerry didn't agree, but immortal laws are NOT forcing ethics.

8 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

they were more like crackbrained adoslescents at their maximum maturity than Zeus is is after only a few months.

Zeus is FORCED to behave better due to the vow. And I don't see anything adolescent on their behaviour. Or crackbrained, actually. They are jerks convinced about them being right, which is something which can be typical for OLD people as well.

12 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

But I've opened up a giant plot hole with those premises. If Helen and Demetrius reset two years ago, why did it take Magus so long to get Ellen created? Did Tedd just figure out how to program the FV5 option for the TG gun? And if Helen and Demetrius didn't reset until shortly before Grace's birthday party, why didn't they either destroy Magus or finally learn he really wasn't a monster?

Magus is not exactly effective. It's entirely possible it took him two years to get Tedd into correct position. And who knows, maybe it took Helen and Demetrius months before they remembered they should return to US. If there were enough vampires distracting them ...

... or the premise is wrong and they did returned well before the birthday party and spend months guarding Elliot and not being able to catch Magus. After all, this might've required some preparation ...

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21 hours ago, hkmaly said:
21 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

which probably caused their forced reset

Why? It was clear case of empower and guide. You may not agree with ethics of what they did, just like Jerry didn't agree, but immortal laws are NOT forcing ethics.

What counts is whether they still believed they were following the rules after they saw the results on Susan. An asshole like Voltaire can stretch the rules further because he can rationalize away being an asshole.

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6 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:
On 12/26/2017 at 8:19 PM, hkmaly said:

Why? It was clear case of empower and guide. You may not agree with ethics of what they did, just like Jerry didn't agree, but immortal laws are NOT forcing ethics.

What counts is whether they still believed they were following the rules after they saw the results on Susan. An asshole like Voltaire can stretch the rules further because he can rationalize away being an asshole.

Again: immortal laws are NOT forcing ethics. Even if seeing the results on Susan would make them question the ethics of their action, it wouldn't change that all they did was empower and guide. They would need to BEND the rules so they would punish them.

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