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Stature

Story Wednesday December 27, 2017

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Ok. That was the last one. We have six vampires, three are dead, then kangaroo guy, big mouth one and the one with muffler.

Aaand we have confirmation that immortal law forbids killing vampires directly.

And zero surprise of Diane immediately realizing that Jerry can't physically restrain her.

1 hour ago, partner555 said:

I guess Voltaire has a point in that the laws are too limiting.

Definitely! I though that the mechanism is that even if some immortals would consider her action right, there will be enough of those who

1) don't consider it right

2) will be WILLING to follow the law even if they disagree

3) would preventively reset her because she's dangerously old and who knows what will be the next opportunity

but the way Zeus said it it seems they have no choice!

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I think Voltaire plans to throw Pandora under the proverbial bus. He wants to change the laws, but Immortals are spread out across the globe, so contacting them all to even try to convince them would be a challenge, even before accounting for their ability to hide from each other. But if Pandora breaks the laws to defend her son, all Immortals across the globe will know what she did and, more importantly, why she did what she did. That could give Voltaire the means to get everyone to listen to him, especially if a magic reset happens around that time, stripping all the mortals that the Immortals care about of their ability to defend themselves.

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4 minutes ago, Drasvin said:

I think Voltaire plans to throw Pandora under the proverbial bus. He wants to change the laws, but Immortals are spread out across the globe, so contacting them all to even try to convince them would be a challenge, even before accounting for their ability to hide from each other. But if Pandora breaks the laws to defend her son, all Immortals across the globe will know what she did and, more importantly, why she did what she did. That could give Voltaire the means to get everyone to listen to him, especially if a magic reset happens around that time, stripping all the mortals that the Immortals care about of their ability to defend themselves.

He would somehow need to arrange her dead so the whatever is his point will be transmitted as part of reasons why she did it.

Unless his plan is basically make the "why" to be "she killed bunch of vampires to protect people she cares about" and he just hope it will make other immortals realize how bad the laws are. Which seems quite optimistic - based on number of people voting in elections and plebiscites, I would say quite a lot of immortals wouldn't care enough anyway. Still, likely best option he has, so ...

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1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Definitely! I though that the mechanism is that even if some immortals would consider her action right, there will be enough of those who

1) don't consider it right

2) will be WILLING to follow the law even if they disagree

3) would preventively reset her because she's dangerously old and who knows what will be the next opportunity

but the way Zeus said it it seems they have no choice!

Probably to prevent them from going easy on rule breakers that have a sympathetic-ish cause, as letting some rule breakers go without punishment could open up ways to further bend the rules by the less scrupulous. Those less scrupulous rule breakers would just need to contrive a "sympathetic" reason for their actions. And Immortals have already shown themselves to be very good at twisting logic.

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

He would somehow need to arrange her dead so the whatever is his point will be transmitted as part of reasons why she did it.

Unless his plan is basically make the "why" to be "she killed bunch of vampires to protect people she cares about" and he just hope it will make other immortals realize how bad the laws are. Which seems quite optimistic - based on number of people voting in elections and plebiscites, I would say quite a lot of immortals wouldn't care enough anyway. Still, likely best option he has, so ...

There are already some, like Zeus, that think the old laws are stupid and there are likely others who would enjoy being able to interact more directly (I imagine H&D wouldn't mind being able to take care of vampires themselves rather than track down a hunter to do the work for them). Voltaire largely needs to get Immortals to start thinking about changing the laws, then he can get their attention and start pushing for whatever his particular direction is.

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Just now, hkmaly said:
Just now, partner555 said:

I guess Voltaire has a point in that the laws are too limiting.

Definitely! I though that the mechanism is that even if some immortals would consider her action right, there will be enough of those who

1) don't consider it right

2) will be WILLING to follow the law even if they disagree

3) would preventively reset her because she's dangerously old and who knows what will be the next opportunity

but the way Zeus said it it seems they have no choice!

Just now, Drasvin said:

I think Voltaire plans to throw Pandora under the proverbial bus. He wants to change the laws, but Immortals are spread out across the globe, so contacting them all to even try to convince them would be a challenge, even before accounting for their ability to hide from each other. But if Pandora breaks the laws to defend her son, all Immortals across the globe will know what she did and, more importantly, why she did what she did. That could give Voltaire the means to get everyone to listen to him, especially if a magic reset happens around that time, stripping all the mortals that the Immortals care about of their ability to defend themselves.

Just now, hkmaly said:

He would somehow need to arrange her dead so the whatever is his point will be transmitted as part of reasons why she did it.

Unless his plan is basically make the "why" to be "she killed bunch of vampires to protect people she cares about" and he just hope it will make other immortals realize how bad the laws are. Which seems quite optimistic - based on number of people voting in elections and plebiscites, I would say quite a lot of immortals wouldn't care enough anyway. Still, likely best option he has, so ...

This is what I've thought of too, that Voltaire is using Pandora as an example of why the law needs to change, but there's is one possible problem with that, and I'm thinking that the whole lie about Elves not being able to have kids might have come about because of the law, and I wonder if the majority of Immortals might look at what Pandora did and instead of agreeing with Voltaire about the law needing to change, they just say she shouldn't have gotten herself that deeply involved in mortal affairs, or that must have been why they chose to lie to themselves.

There's also the chance they could find out that Voltaire was the one "guiding" Pandora's actions, so this whole thing might just backfire on him.

 

Oh, also, it seems we're now left with Koala/Kangaroo guy, Big Mouth and Scarf Guy, I'm wondering if Koala/Kangaroo guy has just GFTO'd because he's realized this whole thing was a setup or if he's hanging back hoping the others wear Adrian out.

Oh, one more thing, back to Voltaire's plan of making Pandora go apes^*t on the vampires. I would imagine Werewolves would have the same protection as Vampires so she wouldn't have directly attacked and killed any. But that was ages ago back when Pandora was probably still under 200 years old for her current lifetime, and would have guided others to killing them for her. Voltaire might be betting on the chance that Pandora is unstable enough to forego guiding others.

 

 

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I'm thinking Voltaire's real goal is to eliminate all elves. Voltaire sicced Sirleck onto Pandora's son and has to know that Sirleck really intends to kill Adrian, not just create a diversion as Magus believes (At least I hope he really believes it). This plan would involve holding up Pandora's relationship with Adrian as why even trying to have children with humans should be against mortal rules.

The real flaw in Voltaire's plan? What if Pandora is so powerful she can't be forcibly reset? You see, this ties in very well with tearing Voltaire to pieces.

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3 hours ago, Drasvin said:
4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

He would somehow need to arrange her dead so the whatever is his point will be transmitted as part of reasons why she did it.

Unless his plan is basically make the "why" to be "she killed bunch of vampires to protect people she cares about" and he just hope it will make other immortals realize how bad the laws are. Which seems quite optimistic - based on number of people voting in elections and plebiscites, I would say quite a lot of immortals wouldn't care enough anyway. Still, likely best option he has, so ...

There are already some, like Zeus, that think the old laws are stupid and there are likely others who would enjoy being able to interact more directly (I imagine H&D wouldn't mind being able to take care of vampires themselves rather than track down a hunter to do the work for them). Voltaire largely needs to get Immortals to start thinking about changing the laws, then he can get their attention and start pushing for whatever his particular direction is.

The problem I have with Voltaire pushing for changes in the laws is his ease with using Elliot's murder as part of his plans.  Also, H&D's obsessive quest to kill vampires that allows them to use a young Nanase and Susan in that quest.  Or as Pandora summed up good, "to do good things for good people and bad things to bad people".  Immortals are too powerful and their morality too narrow to allow them to interact with humans without very strict guidelines.  Honestly, I would think any human with the power of immortals should have similar limits.  The limits in place now probably came about because of some things perpetrated by Immortals, perhaps even in the name of "good".

This is kind of like how some people complain about Superman being the big blue boy scout, with this very hard line code of ethics, ethics which I believe he keeps in place to protect the world from himself.

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I don't think Voltaire is trying to get Pandora to reset, necessarily; that would just be bonus for him. Now, if you remember back to this comic, it seems to me that Voltaire was basically annoyed that he had to take roundabout ways to (attempt to) get Elliot killed. Given also how we just saw him essentially torture Magus in this comic, I'm under the assumption that he'd like to do that to whomever he wants, not just people who happen to be stuck in the spirit plane. Basically, Voltaire is a sadist and is being prevented from enjoying his life to the fullest (by torturing people) by old laws that govern immortals. If those laws are removed to his liking, well. *shrug* Somehow, I don't see most immortals going along with what he wants; judging by the immortals we've seen, anyway. Unless--oooo... If the immortals who would normally protest this kind of behavior just happen to be reset or are in the process of being reset when the rules change, they won't be able to protest the changes and Voltaire could change them to whatever he wants. I wonder how much of a majority vote there needs to be for that to happen? Also, would Edward Verres need to be present?

Back to commenting more on the comic instead of adding my two cents to the currect train of thoughts, I do believe this is the first female vampire (check the hip structure and the chest). Amusing that she had a breath weapon, and also amusing is Dan's commentary that went along with said breath weapon. SInce she looks like a Pokémon/Digimon, I wonder if she's relatively young...? (I don't really care, mind you; one of those idle curiosity things.) Also, now we know that Raven can see thorugh Murder Shroud with no problems. And he can move quite quickly when he wants to, but given the jump he made back when Murder Shroud was first introduced, I suppose I shouldn't be terribly surprised; more like it's getting confirmed. :P 

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7 hours ago, Drasvin said:

Probably to prevent them from going easy on rule breakers that have a sympathetic-ish cause, as letting some rule breakers go without punishment could open up ways to further bend the rules by the less scrupulous. Those less scrupulous rule breakers would just need to contrive a "sympathetic" reason for their actions. And Immortals have already shown themselves to be very good at twisting logic.

There are already some, like Zeus, that think the old laws are stupid and there are likely others who would enjoy being able to interact more directly (I imagine H&D wouldn't mind being able to take care of vampires themselves rather than track down a hunter to do the work for them). Voltaire largely needs to get Immortals to start thinking about changing the laws, then he can get their attention and start pushing for whatever his particular direction is.

To be fair H&D killing vampires directly WOULD be less disastrous then the roundabout way they are going about it.

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3 hours ago, Kazzellin said:

Back to commenting more on the comic instead of adding my two cents to the currect train of thoughts, I do believe this is the first female vampire (check the hip structure and the chest). Amusing that she had a breath weapon, and also amusing is Dan's commentary that went along with said breath weapon. SInce she looks like a Pokémon/Digimon, I wonder if she's relatively young...? (I don't really care, mind you; one of those idle curiosity things.) Also, now we know that Raven can see thorugh Murder Shroud with no problems. And he can move quite quickly when he wants to, but given the jump he made back when Murder Shroud was first introduced, I suppose I shouldn't be terribly surprised; more like it's getting confirmed. :P 

I was trying to decide what pronoun to use when talking about this aberration, perhaps I should have used a gender neutral one.

I can "read" them as male or female... It looks like they have a relatively flat but muscular chest, but that could be breasts rather than muscle. Meanwhile it looks like their waist is narrower than their hips, but that could just be the angle we're seeing them from and the position they're in. I really wish we'd seen more of them; a few more shots might have made it easier to tell their sex (though knowing their gender would have required someone actually having a conversation with them).

...I suppose we could try asking Dan...

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3 hours ago, Kazzellin said:

Back to commenting more on the comic instead of adding my two cents to the currect train of thoughts, I do believe this is the first female vampire (check the hip structure and the chest).

I think you wasted  your two cents. The hips aren't nearly as wide as the chest, and the bulges on the chest look to me more like massive pecs to match the massive delts and biceps. And that hair. What self-respecting female vampire would be seen in public with that hair?

20 minutes ago, animalia said:

To be fair H&D killing vampires directly WOULD be less disastrous then the roundabout way they are going about it.

But boring. The problem Immortals complain about most is getting bored because they've seen most everything. They could solve this problem by resetting sooner, of course. Wonder why they don't? It sounds to me like the rules they have are the very best they could all agree on, or enough of them to force compliance on the minority.

8 minutes ago, ChronosCat said:

...I suppose we could try asking Dan...

And I'm sure he would give us an absolutely unambiguous answer.

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5 hours ago, Alwaysnewguy said:
Dan Shive said:

EGS:NP during the day thanks to Santa Lavos

Darn you, Santa Lavos!

(how do I get it to say "Dan Shive Said", I can't figure)

Edit source, change data-ipsquote-username.

4 hours ago, Kazzellin said:

If the immortals who would normally protest this kind of behavior just happen to be reset or are in the process of being reset when the rules change, they won't be able to protest the changes and Voltaire could change them to whatever he wants. I wonder how much of a majority vote there needs to be for that to happen?

That would likely require resetting LOT of immortals at once.

4 hours ago, Kazzellin said:

Also, would Edward Verres need to be present?

... why should EDWARD Verres need to be present? Tedd "The Seer" Verres, on the other hand ...

54 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:
1 hour ago, animalia said:

To be fair H&D killing vampires directly WOULD be less disastrous then the roundabout way they are going about it.

But boring. The problem Immortals complain about most is getting bored because they've seen most everything. They could solve this problem by resetting sooner, of course. Wonder why they don't? It sounds to me like the rules they have are the very best they could all agree on, or enough of them to force compliance on the minority.

Because they want every live to have at least something to leave to their next incarnation. To have some legacy.

1 hour ago, animalia said:

To be fair H&D killing vampires directly WOULD be less disastrous then the roundabout way they are going about it.

It didn't ended THAT bad, did it? Sure, it seems less and less likely that they awakened Nanase because they saw it will save lives later, but that doesn't change the fact that it did. And while I suspect they would be able to help Andrea better, she would be just as lost without them.

9 hours ago, Drasvin said:

There are already some, like Zeus, that think the old laws are stupid and there are likely others who would enjoy being able to interact more directly (I imagine H&D wouldn't mind being able to take care of vampires themselves rather than track down a hunter to do the work for them). Voltaire largely needs to get Immortals to start thinking about changing the laws, then he can get their attention and start pushing for whatever his particular direction is.

If the main problem is that immortals are unlikely to gather at one place, then this wouldn't really help in that regard.

9 hours ago, Drasvin said:

Probably to prevent them from going easy on rule breakers that have a sympathetic-ish cause, as letting some rule breakers go without punishment could open up ways to further bend the rules by the less scrupulous. Those less scrupulous rule breakers would just need to contrive a "sympathetic" reason for their actions. And Immortals have already shown themselves to be very good at twisting logic.

They SHOULD be also quite good at UNtwisting it.

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Diane may not be inclined to retreat at the first sign of danger.
But that doesn't mean she'll deliberately run into the fray without a plan.
He claims that he has been watching them for months, but Zeus really doesn't know Diane or Susan all that well.  Does he?

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58 minutes ago, Don Edwards said:

In his defense, he hasn't seen them in anything even vaguely approaching this high-stress a situation.

Hrm. He got at least a hint in this situation, but I'll still agree with your point. That wasn't enough to really predict what Susan would act like during a time of actual crisis.

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On ‎12‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 8:22 AM, mlooney said:

So why is Diane worried about Pandora?

Pandora seems like a nice lady and Diane just learned that Pandora might possibly be her great-grandmother (add more greats as needed).

On ‎12‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 0:03 PM, Tuscahoma said:

That really plays into the fact that Immortals used to call themselves fairies. A common thread with the Fair Folk is they don't quite understand human morality. They might understand it's a thing that we care a lot about, but the concept is odd and alien to them. I don't know how deep into the Immortals having Blue and Orange morality Dan plans on going, but between Pandora's clumsy definition of good and Hanma's poor grasp of morality, there are certainly elements of it.

On ‎12‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 0:03 PM, Tuscahoma said:

This is kind of like how some people complain about Superman being the big blue boy scout, with this very hard line code of ethics, ethics which I believe he keeps in place to protect the world from himself.

"With Great Power comes Great Responsibility" Different hero, but similar idea.

22 hours ago, animalia said:

To be fair H&D killing vampires directly WOULD be less disastrous then the roundabout way they are going about it.

If the rule changes just allow for direct interaction with vampires, it might be less disastrous, but given how they treated Magus before they were forcibly reset, I would be wary about expanding the rules any wider than vampires.

20 hours ago, hkmaly said:

If the main problem is that immortals are unlikely to gather at one place, then this wouldn't really help in that regard.

If a lot of Immortals start thinking about needing to change the rules, they would need to figure out how to do that, which would likely need them to congregate somewhere to discuss that and what to change the rules to.

20 hours ago, hkmaly said:

They SHOULD be also quite good at UNtwisting it.

They should be, but it also depends on how much detail they get when someone breaks the rules. If there's too little information, there wouldn't be enough to untwist the logic. For instance, Voltaire has more or less summed up his motivation as wanting to make "the world a better place." While many villains in fiction have that as a motivation, on the surface, it seems like a justifiable reason for otherwise terrible actions. Many heroes have justified their fight against the bad guys by trying to make a better world. The difference between the heroes and villains with that motivation comes down to two points: 1) Point of View of the narrative and 2) A better world for who?

If there's too much, it could be difficult to properly work through it all in a timely manner. This would be problematic, as there needs to be enough energy in the retribution to overcome the rule-breaker's defenses and then kill them. If the information is too dense to formulate in a timely manner, then the energy from the various Immortals across the globe is going to come in separate packets instead of a single massive pulse, and the separate packets might not have enough power to force the reset.

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15 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Diane may not be inclined to retreat at the first sign of danger.
But that doesn't mean she'll deliberately run into the fray without a plan.
He claims that he has been watching them for months, but Zeus really doesn't know Diane or Susan all that well.  Does he?

Well, maybe he was worried she DOES have a plan. Diane saying that she won't go there just because Pandora might do something stupid to protect her does imply she would go there otherwise.

2 hours ago, Drasvin said:
On 12/27/2017 at 7:03 PM, Tuscahoma said:

That really plays into the fact that Immortals used to call themselves fairies. A common thread with the Fair Folk is they don't quite understand human morality. They might understand it's a thing that we care a lot about, but the concept is odd and alien to them. I don't know how deep into the Immortals having Blue and Orange morality Dan plans on going, but between Pandora's clumsy definition of good and Hanma's poor grasp of morality, there are certainly elements of it.

Note that Heka was quite skeptical on fairy understanding human morality too. And he likely knows more fairies than we do.

2 hours ago, Drasvin said:
On 12/27/2017 at 7:03 PM, Tuscahoma said:

This is kind of like how some people complain about Superman being the big blue boy scout, with this very hard line code of ethics, ethics which I believe he keeps in place to protect the world from himself.

"With Great Power comes Great Responsibility" Different hero, but similar idea.

Except that unlike superman, spiderman doesn't really have that much power ... he's lucky when he find some evil he can fight.

3 hours ago, Drasvin said:
On 12/28/2017 at 0:35 AM, hkmaly said:

If the main problem is that immortals are unlikely to gather at one place, then this wouldn't really help in that regard.

If a lot of Immortals start thinking about needing to change the rules, they would need to figure out how to do that, which would likely need them to congregate somewhere to discuss that and what to change the rules to.

Lot of them, yes. But HOW will they get everyone, if changing the rules needs everyone to agree? If there is no pre-agreed way to summon the congregate, it may require literally waiting for everyone to reset and finding them before they learn to hide.

3 hours ago, Drasvin said:
On 12/28/2017 at 0:35 AM, hkmaly said:

They SHOULD be also quite good at UNtwisting it.

They should be, but it also depends on how much detail they get when someone breaks the rules. If there's too little information, there wouldn't be enough to untwist the logic. For instance, Voltaire has more or less summed up his motivation as wanting to make "the world a better place." While many villains in fiction have that as a motivation, on the surface, it seems like a justifiable reason for otherwise terrible actions. Many heroes have justified their fight against the bad guys by trying to make a better world. The difference between the heroes and villains with that motivation comes down to two points: 1) Point of View of the narrative and 2) A better world for who?

If there's too much, it could be difficult to properly work through it all in a timely manner. This would be problematic, as there needs to be enough energy in the retribution to overcome the rule-breaker's defenses and then kill them. If the information is too dense to formulate in a timely manner, then the energy from the various Immortals across the globe is going to come in separate packets instead of a single massive pulse, and the separate packets might not have enough power to force the reset.

Note that both points would be easily overcame simply by erring on the side of sending the energy. The cases where someone gets away with breaking the rules will be very rare, but it COULD happen, and Pandora killing bunch of vampires might qualify.

Also, you assume the information is told, but it is actually transmitted telepatically, which likely makes much easier to work through it. And the mechanism likely makes impossible to directly lie and hard to lie indirectly.

Meanwhile, if it's automatic, why other immortals get the information about what the rule breaker did in first place?

 

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16 hours ago, hkmaly said:
19 hours ago, Drasvin said:
On ‎12‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 5:35 PM, hkmaly said:

If the main problem is that immortals are unlikely to gather at one place, then this wouldn't really help in that regard.

If a lot of Immortals start thinking about needing to change the rules, they would need to figure out how to do that, which would likely need them to congregate somewhere to discuss that and what to change the rules to.

Lot of them, yes. But HOW will they get everyone, if changing the rules needs everyone to agree? If there is no pre-agreed way to summon the congregate, it may require literally waiting for everyone to reset and finding them before they learn to hide.

It's certainly a conundrum, though I doubt that they'll have to wait for everyone to reset. Immortals are going to be paying attention to the world around them (otherwise they would likely get bored) and therefor one could try to get their attention by spread rumors of the congregation through the magical community. Such a grapevine attempt would be more than a little hit-or-miss, as there would be little to no way to know which part of the world a given Immortal is paying attention to, but is potentially more expedient than just waiting for the stragglers to reset.

16 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Note that both points would be easily overcame simply by erring on the side of sending the energy. The cases where someone gets away with breaking the rules will be very rare, but it COULD happen, and Pandora killing bunch of vampires might qualify.

Erring on the side of sending the energy risks significant feelings of regret if the Immortal isn't certain in the decision, especially if they go over the evidence more closely and realize they should have done differently (Such could happen with the opposite, but with sending the energy, the Immortal has likely killed someone and destroyed a significant amount of the knowledge they carried with them) The energy being sent automatically also absolves the Immortals of the responsibility of the rule-breakers death. They don't have a choice in sending the energy, so the weight of decision is entirely on that of the rule-breaker.

17 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Also, you assume the information is told, but it is actually transmitted telepatically, which likely makes much easier to work through it. And the mechanism likely makes impossible to directly lie and hard to lie indirectly.

I'm not sure about you, but I've had times were I've had to stop and untangle my own thoughts. And information being transmitted telepathically doesn't mean that information is instantly processed and understood. Just means the information is readily available in their minds. They will still have to think it over and process the information. Also, if the transmitted information works like a lot of Immortals stuff (their laws and their vows), then they don't have to lie so much as convince themselves of what their motives are.

17 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Meanwhile, if it's automatic, why other immortals get the information about what the rule breaker did in first place?

For one, so they know what their energy is being used for. For two, so the altruistic among them can attempt some sort of damage control if needed. For three, depending on how much Immortals socialize (the one's we've seen don't socialize with others much, but Pandora admitted she might be introverted, Zeus has been busy trying to fulfill the vow he got saddled with, Voltaire is a jerk, and H&D are more than a little clueless from being improperly reset and are also busy with following Elliot and 'recruiting' vampire hunters) it could be a means to let other know what happened to their friend or that a given Immortal might be dangerous to hang out with. And for four: It reinforces that, even if they have the best of intentions, they should not break the rules, ever.

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