story Story, Monday February 19, 2018

[hkmaly 490]

13 hours ago, WR...S said:

I suspect Voltaire may be unseelie...

I suspect that division of fairies to seelie and unseelie was prank one of fairies did in past. There is obviously just one group of fairies and the most "seelie" one we saw created hammers to encourage inappropriate comments from men by providing women with a tangible but ultimately harmless counterattack.

9 hours ago, Scotty said:

16 hours ago, hkmaly said:

To be fair, without Tedd Van would be unlikely to change decision of Will of Magic. Voltaire's assumption is simply wrong.

While Van didn't say much during the meeting to convince the WoM, without his presence Tedd might have been unable to focus. Even with the knowledge of Pandora's "refresh" Tedd might still have been too emotional to be able focus on what she needed to say. Whether or not Tedd recognized Van as family, there was probably still something about Van that gave Tedd the strength to keep going.

That's possible, but it was still Tedd who did it.

9 hours ago, Scotty said:

How many Immortals would side with Voltaire if they knew that their descendants were the "Toys" he speaks of?

Somehow I don't think he will be speaking about toys on the meeting.

7 hours ago, Scotty said:

We do have Zeus saying that the current laws are stupid, but he might be for a different kind of revision than Voltaire wants. While Voltaire wants to be able to play with Humans like toys, Zeus might argue for living with Humans on more equal footing.

Equal? Unlikely. I think Zeus might argue about immortals actually CHOOSING if they do or don't support the forced reset.

7 hours ago, Scotty said:

Edit: So I asked about on reddit and Dan responded with:

So it's possible that Voltaire knew about the second purpose, but didn't know that there was an eligibility clause in it. Which would mean he wouldn't have been responsible for the other 2 Seers becoming ineligible.

Quite likely.

Also the reply mentioning that he might've been risking Pandora's revenge over that might be true, but note that Voltaire previously mentioned the option that he will befriend Tedd ... hmmm ... note that maybe the second purpose is not as easy to invalidate and it wouldn't count if Voltaire just TOLD it to Tedd and Tedd wouldn't believe him - which he likely wouldn't, after trying to kill Elliot.

But him simply not knowing seems most likely.

3 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

Moving on to slightly more serious discussion, the fact that we've cut away from the Seer convention rather than having Tedd and Van's cheering immediately followed up by the revelation that they messed up lessens my feeling of doom somewhat. The fact that Voltaire isn't happy with the relative lack of change also makes me a bit more confident this was the better option. (And it's very satisfying to see Voltaire upset about his plans not working out, even if he still thinks part of his plan will still work.)

I still wonder, however, what sort of changes Will of Magic thought were necessary for magic to go public, and whether they're actually in people's best interest. For instance, if one of Will's goals is to limit the number of people who can use magic, we're probably going to see it get a lot harder for people to become magic users.

I still think we would get back to the "serious discussion", except it would be like Tedd or even more likely Arthur having more questions and magic simply saying "the decision was made, dismissed" without answering any. This comics was here simply to underscore that the change - specifically, the minimal change - already happened.

Also, note that it might became harder for people to became magic users, but it's possible existing magic users are safe, that nothing changed for THEM.

(Of course, Sarah and Catalina who didn't awakened yet may be in problem.)

45 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

• Voltaire disappears again to be brought back as a continuing adversary.  Dan gets however how time he wants to figure out how to use him again.
• Voltaire gets de-fanged by losing most or all of his powers. This could already have been done by the Will if it has jurisdiction over Immortal magic, or it might be done by the hundreds of Immortals who are likely to be upset that it is Voltaire's machinations that provoked Pandora into forcing them to reveal themselves and kill Aberrations whether they wanted to or not. Being forcibly reset would do all this, but if it's complete, Voltaire is essentially a new person, and it would be unfair to punish him further for what he did when he isn't who he was any more.
• Voltaire gets ripped apart. The problem with this is Pandora is going to be weaker when she comes back, and even if she remembers quite a lot, she might not have fingered Voltaire before she reset. (Good chance that figuring out Voltaire was behind the attack on Adrian could be part of a future storyline.)
• Voltaire gets turned into a talking cat. We've only had one talking cat so far (Ellen).

I think that Voltaire disappears now because the immortal council and the change of immortal rules will be something happening later, in different storyline. And all those other options, like Voltaire being de-fanged or ripped apart, will wait for that.

... talking cat? Why?

(Also, I don't think Pandora fingered Voltaire before reset, however main eight KNOW about Voltaire being the one trying to kill Elliot and it doesn't require hundreds of years of experience to realize he's the most likely suspect for this as well.)

 

[wanderingmagus 15]

Why does a megalomaniaclike Voltaire settle for being a demigod when he could be a god, with enough changes? Or is he just being realistic with his goals at the moment?

[hkmaly 490]

24 minutes ago, wanderingmagus said:

Why does a megalomaniaclike Voltaire settle for being a demigod when he could be a god, with enough changes? Or is he just being realistic with his goals at the moment?

a.) Voltaire actually knows some gods and don't want to annoy them ... or is aware of some disadvantage of the "god" package he's not interested in.

b.) Dan thinks this will annoy Catholics less.

c.) Voltaire is thinking in different language than English and this is mistranslation.

Voltaire being realistic doesn't seem likely.

[Aura Guardian 57]

Here's to hoping the other part of his plan doesn't just fail - but backfires.

[sstabeler 8]

I was just thinking about Magic, and I had a thought. What if Immortals don't actually go literally insane as such, but the increased power gradually makes it harder for them not to see humans as insignificant? Helena and Demetrius apparently thought little of using Nanase and Susan to kill an aberration, even though it traumatised Susan. If they were close to needing to reset, then it'd explain their attitude. ( As for Zeus's past life, he did seem inclined to see humans as playthings, he was just more responsible about not breaking his toys.)

Anyway, my point is that Magic, in a sense, is like an Immortal that's never reset or refreshed- it's so much more powerful that it has... considerable trouble seeing humans as worth caring about.

 

As for Sarah, either Pandora can Awaken her post-refresh, or Tedd can teach her.

[The Old Hack 2,448]

1 hour ago, sstabeler said:

Anyway, my point is that Magic, in a sense, is like an Immortal that's never reset or refreshed- it's so much more powerful that it has... considerable trouble seeing humans as worth caring about.

It is possible, of course. But Magic still cared enough to tell Tedd that Pandora had reset so as to remember him as family. Though this might just have been relating what it saw as 'possibly pertinent information', or some similar clinical reason.

[partner555 170]

2 hours ago, sstabeler said:

Anyway, my point is that Magic, in a sense, is like an Immortal that's never reset or refreshed- it's so much more powerful that it has... considerable trouble seeing humans as worth caring about.

 

If that's the case, then why bother with asking Seers for a human perspective?

[sstabeler 8]

Since Magic requires the Seers to convince it not to make major changes, it's either playing with them, or it's the limit of how much it cares. Enough to allow them to voice objections, not enough to guarantee Magic will listen.

 

Plus Magic could simply be comparatively responsible about wielding it's power.

[ChronosCat 155]

19 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

• Voltaire gets turned into a talking cat. We've only had one talking cat so far (Ellen).

Well, with that grin of his, he would make a good Cheshire Cat.

8 hours ago, sstabeler said:

I was just thinking about Magic, and I had a thought. What if Immortals don't actually go literally insane as such, but the increased power gradually makes it harder for them not to see humans as insignificant? Helena and Demetrius apparently thought little of using Nanase and Susan to kill an aberration, even though it traumatised Susan. If they were close to needing to reset, then it'd explain their attitude. ( As for Zeus's past life, he did seem inclined to see humans as playthings, he was just more responsible about not breaking his toys.)

The only immortal we've seen that we know for sure was over 200 was Pandora, and if not insane, she at the very least quite unstable. She tended to develop dangerous tunnel-vision, like when she tried to use Mr. Verres as her tool of revenge against Abraham despite the harm that would do to Mr. Verres and by extension Tedd. She had violent outbursts that ran counter to her plans, like when she attacked and abandoned Magus for refusing to facilitate said revenge plot. And then there's whatever you want to call this.

On the other hand, with the possible exception of Magus, I don't think she treated humans like they were beneath her in the present day. (This is likely at least in part a result of her interactions with Blaike and Adrian, but it still goes to show that old Immortals seeing humans as insignificant isn't inevitable.)

[Tuscahoma 53]

16 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

So, what happens to Voltaire now? Well, the answer always comes down to "whatever Dan wants to happen," but I'm going to spin out some possibilities:

• Voltaire disappears again to be brought back as a continuing adversary.  Dan gets however how time he wants to figure out how to use him again.
• Voltaire gets de-fanged by losing most or all of his powers. This could already have been done by the Will if it has jurisdiction over Immortal magic, or it might be done by the hundreds of Immortals who are likely to be upset that it is Voltaire's machinations that provoked Pandora into forcing them to reveal themselves and kill Aberrations whether they wanted to or not. Being forcibly reset would do all this, but if it's complete, Voltaire is essentially a new person, and it would be unfair to punish him further for what he did when he isn't who he was any more.
• Voltaire gets ripped apart. The problem with this is Pandora is going to be weaker when she comes back, and even if she remembers quite a lot, she might not have fingered Voltaire before she reset. (Good chance that figuring out Voltaire was behind the attack on Adrian could be part of a future storyline.)
• Voltaire gets turned into a talking cat. We've only had one talking cat so far (Ellen).

Actually, I was sort of hoping the Voltaire might be baited into doing something with the intent of getting Elliot killed (failing of course) and then having to deal with a targeted form of severe OCD.

And being turned into a talking cat.

[Drasvin 123]

5 hours ago, sstabeler said:

I was just thinking about Magic, and I had a thought. What if Immortals don't actually go literally insane as such, but the increased power gradually makes it harder for them not to see humans as insignificant? Helena and Demetrius apparently thought little of using Nanase and Susan to kill an aberration, even though it traumatised Susan. If they were close to needing to reset, then it'd explain their attitude. ( As for Zeus's past life, he did seem inclined to see humans as playthings, he was just more responsible about not breaking his toys.)

Greater power causing a person to see those without power as less significant is something that happens in humans as well, but only when empathy is lacking or missing all together, and there are examples of Immortals at the end of their life showing empathy. Pandora certainly did, at least when she was putting forth the effort to keep her mind coherent, and I would argue that Jerry should quite a lot of empathy towards people. Even when he made the hammer to encourage inappropriate comments(which was done when he was considerable younger), it was due to guilt from women being offended by the comments.

5 hours ago, sstabeler said:

Anyway, my point is that Magic, in a sense, is like an Immortal that's never reset or refreshed- it's so much more powerful that it has... considerable trouble seeing humans as worth caring about.

I doubt power is the reason for Magic's thinking and difficulty with humans as much as perspective. Every piece of magical energy across the globe is apart of the same gestalt entity. It is simultaneously a single entity, a collective of countless number, and an empty set. It doesn't perceive the world like humans do. The solid, singular, squishy bags of water that are humans are just as alien to Magic as Magic is to them.

3 hours ago, sstabeler said:

Since Magic requires the Seers to convince it not to make major changes, it's either playing with them, or it's the limit of how much it cares. Enough to allow them to voice objections, not enough to guarantee Magic will listen.

 

Plus Magic could simply be comparatively responsible about wielding it's power.

Magic required the Seers to convince it not to make major changes, because the cycle of change and secrecy had persisted for thousands of years, since the dawn of man. It simply didn't understand why this time would be any different. Sure the world was more crowded, but from Magic's perspective that wasn't really a significant difference. The same basic patterns, just more of them. The major thing that was different this time was technology, more specifically the internet, which was something Magic had little to no knowledge of. Without that important context, the argument that secrecy is doomed to fail seems illogical. That's why Magic said the logic was insufficient. The logic it was presented simply didn't add up from its perspective.

[Vorlonagent 442]

I feel a little happy.  I called the part of Voltaire's plan where He wanted the Magic reset tostrip human magic users of their spells.  I did not call how he set up Pandora: driving a wedge between her and Raven then getting Raven targeted by Vampires to trigger a Constitutional Convention, Immortal-style.

[hkmaly 490]

14 hours ago, sstabeler said:

I was just thinking about Magic, and I had a thought. What if Immortals don't actually go literally insane as such, but the increased power gradually makes it harder for them not to see humans as insignificant? Helena and Demetrius apparently thought little of using Nanase and Susan to kill an aberration, even though it traumatised Susan. If they were close to needing to reset, then it'd explain their attitude. ( As for Zeus's past life, he did seem inclined to see humans as playthings, he was just more responsible about not breaking his toys.)

Nice theory, but we were SEEING how Pandora have trouble staying in focus. The "seeing humans as insignificant" may play some role, but not major one, and not in all cases. Jerry was getting MORE empathy, not less, and I repeat that main reason Helena and Demetrius didn't accounted for how it will traumatise Susan was that based on what was normal in time they were fifty, they already considered her adult.

9 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

The only immortal we've seen that we know for sure was over 200 was Pandora, and if not insane, she at the very least quite unstable. She tended to develop dangerous tunnel-vision, like when she tried to use Mr. Verres as her tool of revenge against Abraham despite the harm that would do to Mr. Verres and by extension Tedd. She had violent outbursts that ran counter to her plans, like when she attacked and abandoned Magus for refusing to facilitate said revenge plot. And then there's whatever you want to call this.

Also tunnel-vision, yes.

13 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

14 hours ago, sstabeler said:

Anyway, my point is that Magic, in a sense, is like an Immortal that's never reset or refreshed- it's so much more powerful that it has... considerable trouble seeing humans as worth caring about.

It is possible, of course. But Magic still cared enough to tell Tedd that Pandora had reset so as to remember him as family. Though this might just have been relating what it saw as 'possibly pertinent information', or some similar clinical reason.

It's more other way around: magic DO see humans as worth caring about, but doesn't know HOW (or more exactly, has trouble with the caring itself). Although it's true it's attempt to care are more for humans as species than individuals ...

I still think that the idea behind telling Tedd Pandora will remember him was more like "I'm not sure why are you angry, but you have incomplete information ; if you will still be angry after having complete information, it would at least be for correct reason".

8 hours ago, Drasvin said:

Magic required the Seers to convince it not to make major changes, because the cycle of change and secrecy had persisted for thousands of years, since the dawn of man. It simply didn't understand why this time would be any different. Sure the world was more crowded, but from Magic's perspective that wasn't really a significant difference. The same basic patterns, just more of them. The major thing that was different this time was technology, more specifically the internet, which was something Magic had little to no knowledge of. Without that important context, the argument that secrecy is doomed to fail seems illogical. That's why Magic said the logic was insufficient. The logic it was presented simply didn't add up from its perspective.

Yes.

Magic was clever enough to realize that the conditions WILL change at some point, but logically needed convincing it already happened.

44 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

I did not call how he set up Pandora: driving a wedge between her and Raven then getting Raven targeted by Vampires to trigger a Constitutional Convention, Immortal-style.

Yes. It was obvious he wants Pandora to do something stupid, but it wasn't clear why ; there was option he simply didn't liked her, or that it was just because it was surest way to cause the magic reset. But seems he EXPECTED she will do something eminent enough to trigger "Constitutional Convention".

 

[The Old Hack 2,448]

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

I still think that the idea behind telling Tedd Pandora will remember him was more like "I'm not sure why are you angry, but you have incomplete information ; if you will still be angry after having complete information, it would at least be for correct reason".

A very good point. I can certainly accept this as a hypothesis; it seems sound to me.