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partner555

Story: Wed Feb 21, 2018

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15 minutes ago, partner555 said:

http://www.egscomics.com/index.php?id=2463

I'm having second thoughts about magic's reveal...

Maaaaybe?

So people now have even worse resistance than before so Tedd's definitely got her work cut out for her in coming up with ways to boost everyone's resistance.

Transformations can become permanent so Elliot would have to be careful how long he spends time as a girl, also I wonder how that might affect Elliot and Ellen in their current conditions of being possessed, is there a risk of the possessions becoming permanent? I hope not.

And magic artifacts and wands that have once been rendered useless by previous changes will now work? That might be potentially dangerous if there were artifacts from thousands of years ago that had very destructive power that wasn't possible in the most recent system.

....Maybe Dragon Sirens will need to be considered soon...

Also forgot to mention old ways of magic from previous systems getting revived, all it would take are people discovering the magic objects and wands made before prior changes to learn the spells that contain. Also something potentially concerning, if an artifact was repurposed at any given time, one that had a magic function during on era, became inert after a system change, then enchanted with a new function later. Would the old function overwrite the more recent one, will they conflict, or create unusual side effects.

To the point, what if the Dewitchery Diamond had a magic use in another time and magic system, then Abraham got a hold of it believing it was just a ordinary but large gemstone and enchanted it? What would that do to Elliot and Magus then?

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35 minutes ago, partner555 said:

http://www.egscomics.com/index.php?id=2463

I'm having second thoughts about magic's reveal...

I'm not, although I'm not happy with this. Based on "previous systems of magic are now accessible", will of magic was actively making them not work and now is unable to. Meaning, if magic would decide to keep being hidden, that thousand of seers would make it public, there would be another reset, where magic wouldn't even bother listening to those thousand seers and would go for minimal changes ... and everyone who lost magic now would have it back again. So, what exactly would not going public now accomplish?

But yes, I expected those changes would be to make situations safer, not less safe.

31 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

...I think Tedd had better get cracking on making those devices that can help protect ordinary people from magic. And then have them mass produced.

I'm sure Arthur will help. With all DGB's resources.

28 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Transformations can become permanent so Elliot would have to be careful how long he spends time as a girl, also I wonder how that might affect Elliot and Ellen in their current conditions of being possessed, is there a risk of the possessions becoming permanent? I hope not.

Elliot PROBABLY can't get stuck in single form because he can always use spell to change again, but yes, he has no spell to became man so if he overdoes it he would need to ask Tedd to transform him back with that permanent gender change wand he though about creating.

(Hmmm ... although, maybe Elliot as a magic user himself with resistance already build is not in serious danger and this is more about people who are not awakened yet ... hmmm ... could it be that Ellen would transform someone thinking it will wear off and that someone would be permanently FV5?)

And possessions becoming permanent sounds like even bigger trouble for those doing the possessing than the possessed. Anyway I don't think there is such danger, AND Ellen and Elliot were not possessed that long.

28 minutes ago, Scotty said:

And magic artifacts and wands that have once been rendered useless by previous changes will now work? That might be potentially dangerous if there were artifacts from thousands of years ago that had very destructive power that wasn't possible in the most recent system.

There probably were ... yes. DGB better check all museums quickly.

28 minutes ago, Scotty said:

To the point, what if the Dewitchery Diamond had a magic use in another time and magic system, then Abraham got a hold of it believing it was just a ordinary but large gemstone and enchanted it? What would that do to Elliot and Magus then?

... scary possibility, but come on, with everything invested in Magus story, do you really think he won't get his own body?

 

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2 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

... scary possibility, but come on, with everything invested in Magus story, do you really think he won't get his own body?

I certainly hope things work out okay, but there certainly is the potential of strangeness if artifacts ever got re-enchanted through several system changes.

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So I'm betting Tedd is really questioning whether she was arguing for the right option now - and Arthur is really wishing he'd tried harder to argue for a severe change. On the other hand (as hkmaly mentioned) a severe change would have only been delaying the inevitable.

It's also interesting that Will of Magic was actually doing its best to help people. In retrospect it makes perfect sense, but I wasn't expecting it. I wonder if everything is out of its "hands" now, or if there's still something it can do.

On the plus side, Tedd no longer has Will standing in the way of her plans for sharing magic, and might even be able to get DGBs help with developing and sharing means of improving magic resistance and possibly magical self-defense.

As for the possibility of transformations becoming permanent, with all the transformation magic the main cast has access to, there shouldn't be too much of a chance of any of them getting stuck in a form forever. Still, it could inconvenience them for a while, and could be a big danger to others. Considering Dan went out of his way to avoid permanent transformations in EGS in the past, the fact that he made this change now leads me to suspect he has some story ideas involving "permanent" transformations that he wants to tell; I'm looking forward to seeing what he has in mind.

Also, the part about how "no human alive should know how" to use previous systems of magic seems like a set-up for Will to be proven wrong. Was a previous system recorded in writing that survives to this day and someone has researched? Or is there a living Elf older than Adrian Raven, one old enough to have experienced the previous system?

59 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Transformations can become permanent so Elliot would have to be careful how long he spends time as a girl, also I wonder how that might affect Elliot and Ellen in their current conditions of being possessed, is there a risk of the possessions becoming permanent? I hope not.

I don't think possessions count as transformations. Even if they do, I suspect "too long" will usually work out to weeks or months (maybe less time for smaller changes, and more time for bigger changes?)... And I imagine separating from his prey is part of Sirleck's powers, so Ellen at least should be safe.

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I have two questions now.

  1. How long is too long?
  2. What it the difference between "little resistance" and "no resistance" for your average person getting hit with a spell?

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2 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

So I'm betting Tedd is really questioning whether she was arguing for the right option now - and Arthur is really wishing he'd tried harder to argue for a severe change. On the other hand (as hkmaly mentioned) a severe change would have only been delaying the inevitable.

I don't think so. Even Tedd, not speaking about Arthur, is aware that severe change will be worse. This is their "so ... there really wasn't ANY good option?" face.

2 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

On the plus side, Tedd no longer has Will standing in the way of her plans for sharing magic, and might even be able to get DGBs help with developing and sharing means of improving magic resistance and possibly magical self-defense.

No self defense. Just new ID cards anyone with clearance to read anything similar to state secret (like, including congressmen etc) will need to carry. It's not like they need to TELL them it's supposed to increase their magic resistance ... yet.

2 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

As for the possibility of transformations becoming permanent, with all the transformation magic the main cast has access to, there shouldn't be too much of a chance of any of them getting stuck in a form forever. Still, it could inconvenience them for a while, and could be a big danger to others. Considering Dan went out of his way to avoid permanent transformations in EGS in the past, the fact that he made this change now leads me to suspect he has some story ideas involving "permanent" transformations that he wants to tell; I'm looking forward to seeing what he has in mind.

If different enchantments counts as different, main cast is definitely safe, yes.

We DO sort of have semi-permanently transformed character already: Vladia. But yes, obviously this will become plot point in near future. Hmmm ... Sam?

2 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

Also, the part about how "no human alive should know how" to use previous systems of magic seems like a set-up for Will to be proven wrong. Was a previous system recorded in writing that survives to this day and someone has researched? Or is there a living Elf older than Adrian Raven, one old enough to have experienced the previous system?

Agree again. But not even Pandora remembers time before last reset ... and Abraham was using current magic, so is likely more modern as well ...

... maybe it will really be "just" about artefacts.

2 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

I don't think possessions count as transformations. Even if they do, I suspect "too long" will usually work out to weeks or months (maybe less time for smaller changes, and more time for bigger changes?)... And I imagine separating from his prey is part of Sirleck's powers, so Ellen at least should be safe.

I suspect that magic resistance is more important than the severity of change.

33 minutes ago, mlooney said:

What it the difference between "little resistance" and "no resistance" for your average person getting hit with a spell?

"Hit"? Possibly none. The spell resistance of normal people was already effectively zero. But the change of ENCHANTMENT resistance might be important. Maybe TF gun will now transform for twice as long, or, well, indefinitely.

 

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Commentary wrote:

It already has been,

and it cannae increase them no more! Plus, it has to do that less now, so... Yeah.

WoM: I cannae change the laws of magic!
Tedd: Err, you just did.
WoM: ...
WoM: ...I cannae change them any more!

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Just realized something:

"And to keep certain forms of magic from being possible"

Would....this mean Time Travel? Could Tedd figure out an "undo button" and fix things? Not sure how far back she could go, a couple days, maybe a week? How could the vampire attack on Adrian be prevented but still allow the reveal of Susan and Diane being related to him, as well as get Pandora to refresh without getting reset and revealing all Immortals...

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So wait, hold up.  WoM was keeping certain forms of magic from being possible, and now those previous systems of magic are now accessible.  And ancient artifacts that used those systems are now working.  Oh, and the magic resistance of the average person is going down. 

:o

So, what exactly is the WoM's real function here?  Some sort of System Administrator for a magical network?  The Sys Admin can control many things, but ultimately the network and system are written by someone else and the Sys Admin has limits to what he can control and often there are things that don't work optimally, but that's the way it is unless you want to change operating systems and network protocols. 

Seems too late at this point, but perhaps at the Seers Three should have had WoM spell out the options in more detail.

Seriously, I shudder to think what sort of Systems of Magic are now possible and what will happen if a Seer is able to observe an artifact in use.

"Oh really, we can summon entities called the Great Old Ones?  How interesting."

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11 hours ago, hkmaly said:

I suspect that magic resistance is more important than the severity of change.

...

"Hit"? Possibly none. The spell resistance of normal people was already effectively zero. But the change of ENCHANTMENT resistance might be important. Maybe TF gun will now transform for twice as long, or, well, indefinitely.

So, this is all just speculation, given that we don't have a lot of info to go on, but here's how I think it might work.

If the enchantment has a built in time limit (I'm assuming the TFG transformations have this, rather than just relying on spell resistance) then just like was the case before the change, if you want the transformation to last longer than normally it will, and if you don't want it to last and you have strong enough magic resistance it will end early, otherwise it will last up to the time limit or until the spell is undone. The "becomes permanent if it last too long" only comes into effect if the subject holds on to the form past the time limit, the time limit was set too long, or the transformation keeps being refreshed before it can end.

If the enchantment does not have a built in time limit, then action will need to be taken to undo the enchantment before "too long" is reached; this action may be using magic resistance or casting a spell to remove or replace the enchantment.

How long is "too long" will also vary based on the circumstances. As you mentioned, magic resistance will likely be a large factor in it, but I still think how drastic a transformation it is may play a part as well. Also, there may be some spells that have more "force" to them and/or are designed to become permanent faster; it may even be possible for people to naturally get spells like Tedd's mark that allow for a "permanent" transformation without any "enchantment" phase.

(Incidentally, the thought occurred to me, what if becoming pregnant doesn't make a MTF transformation permanent automatically, it just blocks transformations that might be dangerous while you're pregnant, and nine months was too long in a form even prior to the change? The only problem with that is in that case why wasn't Abraham stuck as a statue, but maybe while a statue that is his base form, and the spell that turns him human is actually a statue-to-human transformation rather than undoing an enchantment.

...Speaking of Abraham, he's likely to be waking up again soon, given Magus' plans; hopefully he thinks to check that his statue spell is still safe to use before he uses it again...)

5 hours ago, Scotty said:

Just realized something:

"And to keep certain forms of magic from being possible"

Would....this mean Time Travel? Could Tedd figure out an "undo button" and fix things? Not sure how far back she could go, a couple days, maybe a week? How could the vampire attack on Adrian be prevented but still allow the reveal of Susan and Diane being related to him, as well as get Pandora to refresh without getting reset and revealing all Immortals...

The reason for no Time Travel is meta: Dan doesn't want the characters to have access to an easy "Undo Button". I doubt that has changed.

I do think that statement was important, though. I wonder if Dan has some new types of magic planned, and if so, what?

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13 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

Considering Dan went out of his way to avoid permanent transformations in EGS in the past, the fact that he made this change now leads me to suspect he has some story ideas involving "permanent" transformations that he wants to tell; I'm looking forward to seeing what he has in mind.

*cough*transgendertherapy*cough*

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1 minute ago, Vorlonagent said:

...so Magic essential said, "You want it public you get it REALLY public...  Have a nice life."

Essentially, the way Magic kept the secrecy was by restricting it's use in many areas, it blocked out certain methods rather than erasing them, and it boosted resistances so that most enchantments weren't permanent and more likely to fly under the radar due to change blindness or something. So in order to make magic available to all, all barriers need to go down.

That said, I agree that if Arthur had asked about the changes before he and Tedd made their arguments, I'm sure Tedd wouldn't have been too quick to fight for Magic's reveal.

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The key here, I think, is that Tedd, Arthur and Van had no idea that Magic itself was actively working to keep itself secret, or to what lengths it was actually going. They must've just presumed that only humans could influence how widely Magic was used. For that matter, did Pandora know? If so, would her original plan (to mark or awaken as many random people as possible and create a magical "dam" to increase Moperville's ambient magic) have even succeded? We know that it would have eventually caused a "change conversation" with the Seers, of course.

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10 hours ago, JustBecauseICantDraw said:

On the other hand, Giant Pigs will no longer need to overeat to prevent their enchantment going away, which is a major plus for the environment!

First, maybe they still need to. Second, giant pigs are not good for environment even if they don't overeat.

10 hours ago, Scotty said:

"And to keep certain forms of magic from being possible"

Would....this mean Time Travel? Could Tedd figure out an "undo button" and fix things? Not sure how far back she could go, a couple days, maybe a week? How could the vampire attack on Adrian be prevented but still allow the reveal of Susan and Diane being related to him, as well as get Pandora to refresh without getting reset and revealing all Immortals...

I'm pretty sure time travel is still impossible exactly for this reason.

9 hours ago, Tuscahoma said:

Seems too late at this point, but perhaps at the Seers Three should have had WoM spell out the options in more detail.

Doesn't matter. I'll spell those options for you again:

1) Get magic into public now, with relatively low number of people knowing about it, although the number will rise.

2) Get magic into public next month, with much bigger number of people knowing about it and still rising.

8 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

If the enchantment has a built in time limit (I'm assuming the TFG transformations have this, rather than just relying on spell resistance)

I think that this assumption is incorrect and TF gun transformation DOES rely on enchantment resistance ... the uryuom transformation simulator bases its duration expectations on what would happen with an average human.

8 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

Also, there may be some spells that have more "force" to them and/or are designed to become permanent faster; it may even be possible for people to naturally get spells like Tedd's mark that allow for a "permanent" transformation without any "enchantment" phase.

It is indeed possible to have more force in spell ... it would result in longer duration in old system. Yes, maybe transformation supposed to take month will became permanent after one week, while transformation supposed to take week will only become permanent after two weeks.

Meanwhile, that permanent transformation Tedd has is different kind of spell (not enchantment) and people were already able to get it before.

8 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

...Speaking of Abraham, he's likely to be waking up again soon, given Magus' plans; hopefully he thinks to check that his statue spell is still safe to use before he uses it again...

Assuming he survives meeting Magus.

6 hours ago, wanderingmagus said:

Someone call the Vatican, the Imperial Omyouji, the Van Helsing family, all the shamans, the Freemasons, the priests of all major religons, and reconvene the Round Table. And prepare to reopen the crypt of Merlin. We MIGHT have an emergency here.

Understatement of a week?

3 hours ago, Scotty said:
3 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

...so Magic essential said, "You want it public you get it REALLY public...  Have a nice life."

Essentially, the way Magic kept the secrecy was by restricting it's use in many areas, it blocked out certain methods rather than erasing them, and it boosted resistances so that most enchantments weren't permanent and more likely to fly under the radar due to change blindness or something. So in order to make magic available to all, all barriers need to go down.

Magic doesn't have CHOICE here. IMHO "infeasible" means that with enough magic users trying to push the limits, the limits won't hold. And maybe if the Will of Magic actually waited until someone will force-breaks the limits, it would cause some additional problem, like some sort of disaster when they break.

3 hours ago, Scotty said:

That said, I agree that if Arthur had asked about the changes before he and Tedd made their arguments, I'm sure Tedd wouldn't have been too quick to fight for Magic's reveal.

Maybe. However, he didn't made up those arguments. It was all true and trying to hide it from magic wouldn't solve anything.

2 hours ago, CNash said:

The key here, I think, is that Tedd, Arthur and Van had no idea that Magic itself was actively working to keep itself secret, or to what lengths it was actually going. They must've just presumed that only humans could influence how widely Magic was used. For that matter, did Pandora know? If so, would her original plan (to mark or awaken as many random people as possible and create a magical "dam" to increase Moperville's ambient magic) have even succeded? We know that it would have eventually caused a "change conversation" with the Seers, of course.

Without the reset mechanism, magic would simply fail to hold those limits. So yes it would work.

To rephrase the "reset" question: "Should I [meaning will of magic] keep trying to hide magic, or is that battle already lost?"

 

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7 hours ago, wanderingmagus said:

Someone call the Vatican, the Imperial Omyouji, the Van Helsing family, all the shamans, the Freemasons, the priests of all major religons, and reconvene the Round Table. And prepare to reopen the crypt of Merlin. We MIGHT have an emergency here.

And have the Top Men check on the Ark of the Covenant.

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1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

I think that this assumption is incorrect and TF gun transformation DOES rely on enchantment resistance ... the uryuom transformation simulator bases its duration expectations on what would happen with an average human.

It is indeed possible to have more force in spell ... it would result in longer duration in old system. Yes, maybe transformation supposed to take month will became permanent after one week, while transformation supposed to take week will only become permanent after two weeks.

Interesting. I'm not too surprised; that does explain why the watches (which Tedd developed following a line of research that started with studying the TFG) are so sensitive to magic resistance. I guess the the simulator and the (estimated, apparently) "time" on the TFG forms will need to be re-calibrated to take into account the lowered enchantment resistance. ...And seeing as her original beam was based on the TFG's beam, Ellen has yet another reason not to zap people outside their circle of friends with it...

If the TFG spells are not truly time-based, then I don't think we've seen any spells that are. This doesn't rule out there being some in the future, but they probably won't be common, so the section in my earlier speculation about time-based enchantments is mostly irrelevant. This also means that for any transformation designed with the old system in mind, or which isn't specifically designed to wear off, the average non-magic-user might as well be permanently transformed, as I get the impression it's not likely to wear off before it's becomes permanent. DGB (and/or new magical law enforcement and rescue groups) are going to have their hands full.

It's possible the situation will get better with time (even without Tedd's help), as Will does mention that magic resistance can be built up through exposure. (Actually, that sounds familiar; maybe we already knew this and I forgot.) Perhaps one day young children will be routinely deliberately exposed to a variety of (harmless) spells to build up their resistance, much like children get a number of different vaccinations these days.

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