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      Welcome!   03/05/2016

      Welcome, everyone, to the new 910CMX Community Forums. I'm still working on getting them running, so things may change.  If you're a 910 Comic creator and need your forum recreated, let me know and I'll get on it right away.  I'll do my best to make this new place as fun as the last one!
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Story Friday February 23, 2018

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"It will only affect those who want to keep a transformation" ... transgender transformation potential confirmed. Also lot of catgirls. Maybe we WILL get more races like in Shadowrun, but instead of orks and trolls it will be elves and catgirls. Who would like to be troll? ... besides football players ....?

"the default magic system" - so other magic systems ARE accessible, but some things still defaults to using the last one. Meaning resetting month later COULD bring little better rules. That is, IF someone would have some idea which would be possible. Current configuration settings MIGHT be as good as possible, OR the reset might set the rules worse because is basically random ... like, ticking clocks.

"massive storms of chaos magic" ... well, what would you expect from magic without rules?

"yes. People would stop using magic" ... also, lot of them would die, but I guess Will of Magic doesn't care about that so much.

Kid wizard Sarah ... what is wizard Sarah doing with that sombrero? Oh, right, it's just bad angle.

"oh no, youth restored, ... the absolute dreadful horror, obvious sarcasm" ... I would argue that yes, being youth again IS negative, if it's too much. Sure, growing again makes it sort of not really permanent, but I don't think anyone wants to be potty trained again. And most would put the line even higher, even if being youth doesn't make you forget anything.

"magic ... severely damage modern technology" ... Harry Dresden? And yes, we wouldn't believe Dan would make it happen. This way, I went from "they will totally prevent the reset" to "maybe the reset will happen" and back to "maybe it wont".

And yes, there IS potential for the debate. I don't think it's big, as I explained in last thread, but at the same time that last thread proved that the potential is there as the debate happened.

 

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There's a lot of densely packed info here, so please excuse me as I try to unpack some of it, and speculate along the way.

So, judging by panel one, Will of Magic considers Uryuom magic a separate system (and possibly not even "true" magic to boot). How does that work when some people (namely Ellen) gain spells through the Human Magic system but have spells based on Uryuom magic? Does Ellen's FV5 beams count as Uryuom magic, or Human magic? And what about her other transformation beams? Or what if a spell based on Uryuom magic is loaded into a Wand using Human Magic (as Tedd did with the watches)?

...Maybe Ellen and the watches are using Human Magic to produce an effect similar or identical to Uryuom magic, just as magic can be used to produce effects that could be produced with non-magical means... but that still leaves the question open of whether the transformations they cause would become permanent if left on a person for a month or more...

Hmm... Will says that with spells in the Default Human system, you'd need to "hold on" to a form for a month or more. Taken with the following statement about it only affecting those who want to be transformed, I guess that means you need to like the form enough that your wanting the spell to continue prevents it from ending, and you need to do so for at least a month. I wonder if the count starts when you're transformed, or when you pass the spell's intended duration? (This also means that Ellen and the watches can't permanently transform someone unless that person likes the form, assuming they can permanently transform anyone at all (beyond the "becomes permanent if you become pregnant" clause).)

I'm still trying to figure out where Tedd came up with "if the rules were all ideal, magic wouldn't work". Am I missing something, or did she just make a huge leap there? What are these "ideal rules" of Magic Tedd and Will are talking about, and beyond the fact that Will was talking about the limits in what sort of rules it can impose, what do they have to do with anything said previously?

 

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1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Kid wizard Sarah ... what is wizard Sarah doing with that sombrero? Oh, right, it's just bad angle.

Sarah was shown with a sombrero at least once before, but I lack the energy to look it up tonight.

 

19 minutes ago, weirdee said:

I like how magic is more concerned about it not being used than the possibility of giant, unstable rifts in the fabric of existence.

The will of magic can't exist without the use of Magic because the will of Magic is magic. I'd be concerned too.

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

"magic ... severely damage modern technology" ... Harry Dresden? And yes, we wouldn't believe Dan would make it happen. This way, I went from "they will totally prevent the reset" to "maybe the reset will happen" and back to "maybe it wont".

That sounds more like the interminable "Dies the Fire" series by S.M. Stirling. The only magic-replaces-technology story that really works IMHO is Fred Saberhagan's Empire of the East stories, which are about forty years old. A world without video games? Definitely not one of Dan's worlds.

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1 hour ago, weirdee said:

I like how magic is more concerned about it not being used than the possibility of giant, unstable rifts in the fabric of existence.

Well, it is a being with different priorities to humans.

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1 hour ago, ChronosCat said:

So, judging by panel one, Will of Magic considers Uryuom magic a separate system (and possibly not even "true" magic to boot). How does that work when some people (namely Ellen) gain spells through the Human Magic system but have spells based on Uryuom magic? Does Ellen's FV5 beams count as Uryuom magic, or Human magic? And what about her other transformation beams? Or what if a spell based on Uryuom magic is loaded into a Wand using Human Magic (as Tedd did with the watches)?

Ellen's magic is human magic mimicking Uryuom magic, that was directly said in some Q&A. Tedd's watches are likely based on Ellen's magic (and Elliot's), not directly on TF gun.

1 hour ago, ChronosCat said:

but that still leaves the question open of whether the transformations they cause would become permanent if left on a person for a month or more...

Possibly. The WoM said at least 30 days, FV5 takes month (and that was with enchantment resistance), maybe it can go over limit.

1 hour ago, ChronosCat said:

I wonder if the count starts when you're transformed, or when you pass the spell's intended duration?

... hmmm ...

1 hour ago, ChronosCat said:

I'm still trying to figure out where Tedd came up with "if the rules were all ideal, magic wouldn't work". Am I missing something, or did she just make a huge leap there? What are these "ideal rules" of Magic Tedd and Will are talking about, and beyond the fact that Will was talking about the limits in what sort of rules it can impose, what do they have to do with anything said previously?

Well Tedd IS seer and intuitive leaps are how her abilities work, so ...

... but I think the missing step is that inclusion of the "ticking clock" mechanism was forced "negative" trait of that configuration and that some negative traits are necessary.

Still sounds like few leaps happened. Didn't Dan explained it better on twitter or somewhere?

54 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

That sounds more like the interminable "Dies the Fire" series by S.M. Stirling.

The magic in "Dies the Fire" either isn't or is very limited.

56 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

A world without video games? Definitely not one of Dan's worlds.

I wouldn't want to deny the importance of video games, but the major problem with loss of technology is that in current world, it would mean billions of dead. THAT doesn't sound like Dan's world.

Note the reference to Dies the Fire from The Day the Earth Stood Still. I probably didn't read Dies the Fire, but I think I've read enough post-apocalyptic novels. Most people in our world won't be able to survive without food being transported all over the world constantly ... not speaking about fact that without technology, our agriculture wouldn't produce enough food for everyone.

Also, without tap water working, there would quickly start epidemics, as people would be forced to drink from unclean sources of water. In middle ages, the size of cities was actually limited by level of hygiene.

... damn I should go to sleep ...

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I admit that I can't get that bit about ancient magical devices and wands beginning to work again out of my mind. That one alone has endless story potential.

"So, Will? Would there be any immediate effects of old magical devices beginning to work again we should be concerned about?"
"Hmm. The Animated Chess Pieces of Shuma-Gorath would come alive again and follow instructions. That might upset the people in British Museum a little."
"That doesn't sound so bad."
"Oh, and the Pillars of Infinity that once kept Atlantis from sinking will regain their potency and make it emerge from the ocean anew."
"Okay, that is a bit more concerning."
"Of course, its re-emergence will cause tidal waves and the oceans to rise one and a half meters, and the Stygian Basin in the middle of the continent will somewhat lower your planetary albedo with a resulting world average temperature increase of approximately three fifths of a degree celsius."
"AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

1 hour ago, weirdee said:

I like how magic is more concerned about it not being used than the possibility of giant, unstable rifts in the fabric of existence.

Gotta keep your priorities straight.

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3 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

I'm still trying to figure out where Tedd came up with "if the rules were all ideal, magic wouldn't work". Am I missing something, or did she just make a huge leap there? What are these "ideal rules" of Magic Tedd and Will are talking about, and beyond the fact that Will was talking about the limits in what sort of rules it can impose, what do they have to do with anything said previously?

I read it as Tedd asking a hypothetical.  "Here's this system, and it has a down side.  Here's this other system, and it has other down sides."  "I don't suppose you could just give us a system without all these down sides?"  "Nope, 'cos then disaster!"

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"Become random... massive storms of chaos magic... people would stop using magic"

*looks over at Warhammer rulebooks* I think the WoM massively underestimates the natural, possibly insane curiosity of mortals.

2 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

That sounds more like the interminable "Dies the Fire" series by S.M. Stirling. The only magic-replaces-technology story that really works IMHO is Fred Saberhagan's Empire of the East stories, which are about forty years old.

Actually, Dies the Fire isn't really about magic replacing technology. It's about the gods making most tech involving steam, explosions and electricity stop working, which allows things like the Difference Engine, primitive steam engines in Iowa and clockwork horse drawn locomotives, along with hydrogen blimps in Idaho. Actual magic barely figures at all, other than premonitions and very vague stuff that could mostly be explained by hypnotic suggestion or very strong drugs, and the major stuff is less magic and more miracle, heavily involving invocations of deities such as Morrigu or Odhinn or Mary Pierced With Many Sorrows.

A world where magic completely replaces technology would probably be Eberron. A world where most technology doesn't work but traditional fantasy magic works for very specific people would be the Council Wars series by John Ringo, although he cheats a bit by having said "magic" be sufficiently advanced technology.

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2 minutes ago, wanderingmagus said:

"Become random... massive storms of chaos magic... people would stop using magic"

*looks over at Warhammer rulebooks* I think the WoM massively underestimates the natural, possibly insane curiosity of mortals.

Magic's weak spot is understanding individuals. People in general would stop using magic. Individual ambitious would-be wizards would continue like no tomorrow. They would likely also die in droves but there would always follow more to replace them.

 

3 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

That sounds more like the interminable "Dies the Fire" series by S.M. Stirling. The only magic-replaces-technology story that really works IMHO is Fred Saberhagan's Empire of the East stories, which are about forty years old.

Fred Saberhagen's Empire of the East series and many of the following books are all excellent.

I once ran a roleplaying game with this as a premise. The idea was that the players were supposed to stop and reverse the process before it became permanent. There was a neighbouring dimension with a world much like ours and due to an overlap the world barriers became porous. Close to the rifts forming as a result the two different sets of laws clashed. Magic stopped working in the magic world and science stopped working in ours. Worse, magical phenomenae got loose in our world. The good thing, from the POV of the players, was that the science stuff they brought along while exploring the magic world worked over there.

The players won in the end though it was a tight race. I have always been a bit sorry that we never got a chance to play out the aftermath. So many people had died and so much damage had been done that much of Denmark had turned into a post-apocalyptic wasteland. (Thankfully for the rest of the world, the effects had not yet spread outside Denmark's borders by the time the players successfully fixed things.) It would have been really interesting to play a game where the players were part of a reconstruction effort and had to deal with lingering effects. For example, one idea I had was that magic still worked in certain areas.

My best memory from the game was when the players were chased by a huge horde of zombies. This happened to be in the city of Aalborg which we lived in at the time. There was this plaza where you could always be sure to find hundreds of bicycles parked. Bicycles still worked so my players quickly stole some and left the zombies in the dust. They turned a corner and gave a sigh of relief. Moments later, they had a huge OH SHIT moment as they saw a massive mob of zombies all on bicycles turning the corner in rapid pursuit. (We made SO MANY bad jokes about that, by the way. This happened to be while Tour de France was going on and the pursuing mob instantly got named Tour du Mort. The leading zombie was of course wearing a yellow shirt and the players argued about whether being undead counted as a form of doping... it went on and on.)

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 because oh no, youth restored, they have to grow up again, the absolute dreadful horror, obvious sarcasm, etc.

Well, at least Dan's not making the youth thing a curse......

I've heard of a Curse of Eternal Youth, that just keeps you from physically aging. You can still die from old age, but you would look like a 10-yr-old for the rest of your life.

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2 hours ago, Darkxemjas said:

I've heard of a Curse of Eternal Youth, that just keeps you from physically aging. You can still die from old age, but you would look like a 10-yr-old for the rest of your life.

Being a guy, Dan already has the real Curse of Eternal Youth. That's where you don't look  like a 10-year-old; you just act like one, or at least act as if you aren't as old as you are, and refuse to perceive the signs you are getting further and further from the bloom of youth, signs like:

  • Younger people calling you "sir".
  • That unconscious grunt that comes with strenuous activity like bending down.
  • Actually voting.
  • Not being asked for ID.
  • Relaxed fit jeans.
  • Carrows.
  • Younger people calling you "Dad."
  • Much easier to count your teeth.
  • Easier to comb your hair.
  • Harder to find your hair. Oh, there it is, in your ears.

And I actually didn't crib any of these from Dave Barry books.

  • Knowing who the hell Dave Barry is/was. Worse, realizing he's only three  years older than you.

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Whoever ends up trying to catalogue all the magical effects and artifacts (because someone in the setting will. If nothing else, someone will set up a wiki about it. Wikis are everywhere) is going to have their work cut out for them if any of the old systems have a resurgence. Seemingly conflicting rules make for massive headaches.

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5 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

Being a guy, Dan already has the real Curse of Eternal Youth. That's where you don't look  like a 10-year-old; you just act like one, or at least act as if you aren't as old as you are, and refuse to perceive the signs you are getting further and further from the bloom of youth,

This one is already in TVTropes. It is called 'Cursed with Awesome.' :P

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3 hours ago, Darkxemjas said:

I've heard of a Curse of Eternal Youth, that just keeps you from physically aging. You can still die from old age, but you would look like a 10-yr-old for the rest of your life.

Then there's the curse of eternal life that does NOT come with any prevention or slowing of aging...

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So new spells learned naturally are only from the default system, but a wizard can learn spells from other sources.  A seer could see an artifact in use and learn the spells it uses.  Could a regular wizard do that as well?  We really haven't seen how regular wizards learn spells form other people to be able to say whether or not they could learn from an artifact.  Still, that means at least one thousand people in the world who might be able to learn ancient, forgotten, possibly forbidden, maybe world-shaking magic.  And in the case of seers, could make wands that allow the casting of said spells.

As for storms of chaos magic, sounds like magic behaves like a lot of natural systems governed by chaos theory that are dynamical and sensitive to starting conditions, like weather or your heart.  You can't predict when your next heartbeat will occur, but under most conditions, you can predict the space it will inhabit.  So your heartbeat, while sitting, from previous experience, might be like between 60 and 70 heartbeats per minute.  Interestingly enough, such systems can be kicked out of their usual space and devolve into more chaotic behavior, such as when a heart starts fibrillating or the climate starts warming up.  Seems like the rules in place for magic are designed to make the system of magic less brittle, more resistant to devolving into chaos.

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3 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

I read it as Tedd asking a hypothetical.  "Here's this system, and it has a down side.  Here's this other system, and it has other down sides."  "I don't suppose you could just give us a system without all these down sides?"  "Nope, 'cos then disaster!"

I think that's broadly right, but trying to figure out how Tedd's statement could have been better phrased I think I figured out what she really meant. The term "rules" has been used in this chapter and on the forums as shorthand for "set of rules" (or at least that's how I interpreted it), but I think when Tedd says "if the rules were all ideal" what she meant was "if each individual rule was set to it's individual ideal setting".

So adjusting the rules of magic is sort of like when you're adjusting the colors on a picture; you don't want all the colors at max or you'll wind up with solid white, or at minimum as that'll be black, and keeping everything in the middle doesn't change anything. (Another example that comes to mind is adjusting the sound on a sound system / program that allows you to play around with multiple characteristics of the sound.)

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Oh wow, just realized.  Once Magic goes public and knowledge of transformations becoming permanent is common, we will see humanity start to really change.  Imagine a world full of people who realize they can become whatever they want by magic.  Stronger, handsomer, furrier, taller, smaller, different colors, extra sets of things, whatever.  Generations from now, humans might not be recognizably human anymore.

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1 hour ago, Drasvin said:

Whoever ends up trying to catalogue all the magical effects and artifacts (because someone in the setting will. If nothing else, someone will set up a wiki about it. Wikis are everywhere) is going to have their work cut out for them if any of the old systems have a resurgence. Seemingly conflicting rules make for massive headaches.

Not really a problem. Edward pointed out to Tedd that there are people whose job is filling up wikis with nonsense. Probably Edward is one of them.

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17 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

Not really a problem. Edward pointed out to Tedd that there are people whose job is filling up wikis with nonsense. Probably Edward is one of them.

I thought it was the job of the regular Wiki posters to do that. :danshiftyeyes:

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So, are there people who got permanently transformed so far?

I suppose Vladia would be, but then again, she's part Uryuom - does that make it not permanent?

Felix/Felicia and Kitty are also likely candidates for permanency, at least at some point in the future.

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4 minutes ago, detrius said:

So, are there people who got permanently transformed so far?

I suppose Vladia would be, but then again, she's part Uryuom - does that make it not permanent?

There have always been  spells that could instantly change a person's base form (Tedd's mark the primary example), but we don't know how common they were; it might not be something you could gain by developing your magic.

However, most transformations in the series, including the ones caused by the TFG, cast an enchantment upon the subject, and under the magic system that was in effect prior to this chapter, enchantments couldn't permanently change you (unless you got pregnant and transforming back to normal would harm the fetus); if you disliked or were indifferent to the transformation it would eventually wear off, and even if you liked it it would never become your base form (meaning new transformation spells or simply changing your mind could dispel it). It will take at least a month (in story) before the change in magic can result in any enchantment-based transformations becoming permanent.

As for Vladia, her being part Uryuom means concepts like "base forms" and "permanent transformations" are theoretically irrelevant - Greater Chimeras always have the power to transform at will into any previous form they've held. The reason she doesn't transform is because she's okay with her current form and she is afraid of the pain and physical trauma her transformations caused in the past - but if she ever has a reason to transform and feels brave enough to do so, nothing magical is stopping her.

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