story Story, Monday March 5, 2018

[Vorlonagent 442]

37 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

I really hope so, but some people ARE so naive.

Especially if they are desperate and low on options.

37 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Agree with both. It would be cool to have Ashley get some powers, but most likely, she's really there just to provide someone Magus can talk to and say everything the readers need to know.

If Ashley were to touch the Dewitchery Diamond there would suddenly be a second Ashley there capable of casting a "calm" spell...  There's also a whole lot of other artifacts she could get into especially if Elliot and Sirleck-possessing-Magus square off.

37 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

He doesn't deserve it, and after all the talk about aberrations being impossible to cure? Unlikely.

Ed Verres was pretty clear on Aberrants/Vampires and return to humanity.  To humanize them again would kill them.  I imagine FV5ing Sirleck would be like FV5ing not-Tengue's monster form.  I expect you'd only be able to hit Sirleck when he's corporeal (i.e. between bodies), which is rare. If he's possessing someone, the effect would probably hit the host body not Sirleck.

Question through.  What happens if Sirleck possessing Ellen touched the Dewitchery Diamond?  Ellen is instantly free, Sirleck gets a new body.   His ability to "pass on the curse" could well be to grant the the ability to posses people Sirleck-style which would probably mean turning people into Sirleck-like Aberrants/Vampires.  That would be pretty terrifying.

37 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

He would totally voluntarily release a healthy body with some mostly useless magic in exchange for healthy body with lot of useful battle-ready spells (Magus).

Sirleck possessed and released the school custodian without killing her.  It shouldn't be an automatic death sentence, but having Sirleck latched onto a non magic-using human body looks to be very draining.  Probably would be for Ellen too.

[hkmaly 490]

12 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

47 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Agree with both. It would be cool to have Ashley get some powers, but most likely, she's really there just to provide someone Magus can talk to and say everything the readers need to know.

If Ashley were to touch the Dewitchery Diamond there would suddenly be a second Ashley there capable of casting a "calm" spell...  There's also a whole lot of other artifacts she could get into especially if Elliot and Sirleck-possessing-Magus square off.

Oh yes, Ashley with calm spell, we speculated about this when she has the spell cast on her didn't we?

Of course, this assumes they will bother taking Ashley with them as opposed to let her sleep in car. Do they NEED her for anything? ... hmmm ... maybe as distraction for Elliot after he's split?

14 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

I imagine FV5ing Sirleck would be like FV5ing not-Tengue's monster form.

Not-Tengu was not aberration. He just resisted the spell.

16 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

Sirleck possessed and released the school custodian without killing her.  It shouldn't be an automatic death sentence, but having Sirleck latched onto a non magic-using human body looks to be very draining.  Probably would be for Ellen too.

Oh, definitely: if he releases Ellen voluntary, which I just said he will do, she will be drained but alive. I think her being magic user won't help her.

[Vorlonagent 442]

1 minute ago, hkmaly said:

Oh yes, Ashley with calm spell, we speculated about this when she has the spell cast on her didn't we?

Of course, this assumes they will bother taking Ashley with them as opposed to let her sleep in car. Do they NEED her for anything? ... hmmm ... maybe as distraction for Elliot after he's split?

Hostages are always fun.

1 minute ago, hkmaly said:

Not-Tengu was not aberration. He just resisted the spell.

I know.  Sirleck probably has as much or more resistance as not-Tengue.

2 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Oh, definitely: if he releases Ellen voluntary, which I just said he will do, she will be drained but alive. I think her being magic user won't help her

It seemed like there was a question about whether magus releasing a host is fatal.  I was agreeing with you more than anything, though I could probably have made that clearer.

[Pharaoh RutinTutin 1,586]

After playing "Hot Potato" with the Dewitchery Diamond, the following people will be left standing in the storeroom.

Elliot, Ellen, and Ashley. Essentially as we last saw them before the current round of shenanigans.

Sirleck, sans host temporarily.

Duplicate Blond Elliot, ie Magus.

Duplicate Ellen, but with the mentality of an aberration.

Duplicate Ashley, inhumanly calm and serene with the ability to calm anyone or anything with just a glance.

Guard and Duplicate Guard.  Impossible to tell the difference.  They are both cursed.

 

[mlooney 3,417]

2 hours ago, Scotty said:

Have any appliances been acting up lately?

Not really.  The rice cooker tries to.

 

[Vorlonagent 442]

17 minutes ago, mlooney said:

Not really.  The rice cooker tries to.

You always have to keep an eye on the toaster as well...

[ChronosCat 155]

 

6 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

11 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

Magus is an alternate of Elliot, so the "Elliots" part of the title is already in play. However, unless his new body winds up female, I don't see how he'd also be an Ellen.

Terra, perhaps?  Once Magus has form, could he contact his home universe?  Has he, perhaps, done so already?  Or would Sirleck not let him out of his sight long enough?

If you're suggesting Terra would be an "Ellen", then I don't think so. Terra is an alternate of Tedd.

2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

3 hours ago, Wyrd42 said:

*Ellen has a copy of Elliot's memories, but did not actually live through them.  Supposedly, the dichotomy between a newborn soul and a lifetime of memories would inevitably lead to madness if steps had not been taken to age her soul through an AU dream sequence.

Just because Nioi thinks so doesn't make that true.

While I agree that Nioi's word isn't enough to be sure people with souls too young for their body go insane, it has occurred to me that if it was true it might explain why all the Dewitchery Duplicates Abraham encountered before Ellen were monsters. (Or to be more specific why they acted like monsters. This is assuming Abraham didn't actually kill any "monsters" who were harmless and/or had a normal human mind in a cursed body.)

[Tom Sewell 268]

Sorry, guys, Internet out at my place and the wifi at the library I'm at now is closing. So no amazing crackpot theories today and maybe not for several days. I hope you can survive.

Wait. One theory: There will be two ellens and two Elliots. One may be Magus, but I think the old DW is going to make another Ellen too. Second Second life time? Send for Nioi!

[Scotty 1,061]

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

You always have to keep an eye on the toaster as well...

With the toaster you only have to worry about random transformations.

[hkmaly 490]

3 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

6 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Just because Nioi thinks so doesn't make that true.

While I agree that Nioi's word isn't enough to be sure people with souls too young for their body go insane, it has occurred to me that if it was true it might explain why all the Dewitchery Duplicates Abraham encountered before Ellen were monsters. (Or to be more specific why they acted like monsters. This is assuming Abraham didn't actually kill any "monsters" who were harmless and/or had a normal human mind in a cursed body.)

This is assuming not only that Abraham didn't actually kill any harmless "monsters", but also that there were any people seeking to undo "harmless" curse with the dewitchery diamond to start with, not speaking about possibility there were just few cases of Abraham waking up total.

Sure, Ellen didn't exactly displayed sane behaviour after being split, but she was in lot of stress and assuming she dies in month. And she got much better even BEFORE getting the second life.

[The Old Hack 2,448]

Just now, hkmaly said:

Sure, Ellen didn't exactly displayed sane behaviour after being split, but she was in lot of stress and assuming she dies in month. And she got much better even BEFORE getting the second life.

I am in @hkmaly's camp here. I have never had much faith in Nioi's tale. I can't explain exactly why, it just rubs me the wrong way. I fully believe that she had good intentions but so did pre-Galen doctors who bled their patients and attached leeches to them. And her 'diagnosis' had a wee bit too much of 'I think' and 'supposes' and 'seems to work' in it.

[partner555 170]

6 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Agree with both. It would be cool to have Ashley get some powers, but most likely, she's really there just to provide someone Magus can talk to and say everything the readers need to know.

I believe Dan said that while that's why she's here in the first place, he has since thought of other things for her to do.

[Scotty 1,061]

9 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

I am in @hkmaly's camp here. I have never had much faith in Nioi's tale. I can't explain exactly why, it just rubs me the wrong way. I fully believe that she had good intentions but so did pre-Galen doctors who bled their patients and attached leeches to them. And her 'diagnosis' had a wee bit too much of 'I think' and 'supposes' and 'seems to work' in it.

It still might be said that even if Nioi's belief wasn't accurate, what she did to Ellen was still pretty instrumental in Ellen becoming a unique individual compared to Elliot, those other memories gave her experiences that Elliot never had and so she was able to draw on both Elliot's memories, and those she gained from the second life to create her own identity.

Another way to put it would be if Ellen didn't have the second life dreams, she might have spent most of the time trying to just be the opposite of Elliot, not defaulting to decisions he'd make. That might have ended up getting her into some trouble, but with the second life memories, she could think about what Elliot might do, compare it with what SL Ellen might do, and maybe even come up with something completely different.

[The Old Hack 2,448]

Just now, Scotty said:

Another way to put it would be if Ellen didn't have the second life dreams, she might have spent most of the time trying to just be the opposite of Elliot, not defaulting to decisions he'd make. That might have ended up getting her into some trouble, but with the second life memories, she could think about what Elliot might do, compare it with what SL Ellen might do, and maybe even come up with something completely different.

Still another way of putting it is that she flooded Ellen with an entire lifetime of memories without her informed consent, which however well intentioned can still only be classified as a violation of her mind and spirit.

[Tom Sewell 268]

1 hour ago, The Old Hack said:

I am in @hkmaly's camp here. I have never had much faith in Nioi's tale. I can't explain exactly why, it just rubs me the wrong way. I fully believe that she had good intentions but so did pre-Galen doctors who bled their patients and attached leeches to them. And her 'diagnosis' had a wee bit too much of 'I think' and 'supposes' and 'seems to work' in it.

I'm not married to Nioi being right, but here's a thought: Have you ever wondered why Lord Tedd seemed so evil, but then he was looking for Nioi to give her a book she'd like. Could it be that Lord Tedd was created by  a Dewitchery Diamond? We know that Kaoli was...

[Tom Sewell 268]

On 3/4/2018 at 9:44 PM, ChronosCat said:

"Elliots and Ellens"...? Why "Ellens"? Is Sirleck/Ellen going to touch the Diamond too? Is there going to be talk about alternate universes and Ellen's place in them? Or did Dan just think making both names plural sounded good?

I've already got in a theory about that on this thread, and I've been saying something like this could happen. The thing is, Magus and Elliot effectively have more than one thing that the Dewitchery Diamond could see as a curse: Elliot transforms into girl forms, Ellen transforms other people. Elliot being merged with Magus could be considered another curse. And Ellen and Sirleck were both involved in merging Elliot and.

It could get even more complicated if Sirleck/Ellen touch the Dewitchery Diamond. Suppose that created an Ellen who was an Aberration who could turn other people into Aberrations?

BTW, the internet came back at where I live, though until I'd been back for a couple of hours. I was about to go to bed. Think I will now.

[hkmaly 490]

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

1 hour ago, The Old Hack said:

I am in @hkmaly's camp here. I have never had much faith in Nioi's tale. I can't explain exactly why, it just rubs me the wrong way. I fully believe that she had good intentions but so did pre-Galen doctors who bled their patients and attached leeches to them. And her 'diagnosis' had a wee bit too much of 'I think' and 'supposes' and 'seems to work' in it.

It still might be said that even if Nioi's belief wasn't accurate, what she did to Ellen was still pretty instrumental in Ellen becoming a unique individual compared to Elliot, those other memories gave her experiences that Elliot never had and so she was able to draw on both Elliot's memories, and those she gained from the second life to create her own identity.

Another way to put it would be if Ellen didn't have the second life dreams, she might have spent most of the time trying to just be the opposite of Elliot, not defaulting to decisions he'd make. That might have ended up getting her into some trouble, but with the second life memories, she could think about what Elliot might do, compare it with what SL Ellen might do, and maybe even come up with something completely different.

In relationship with Nanase, she had lot of opportunities to rebuild her personality on better foundation than "not Elliot" ... however, it's true that second life give her something to build that on even before, and it is possible her start with dating Nanase wouldn't go so well without that ...

27 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

I'm not married to Nioi being right, but here's a thought: Have you ever wondered why Lord Tedd seemed so evil, but then he was looking for Nioi to give her a book she'd like. Could it be that Lord Tedd was created by  a Dewitchery Diamond? We know that Kaoli was...

More likely Lord Tedd isn't exactly stable ... if there would be two Tedds, they would refer to them differently ...

 

[Haylo 57]

2 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

Still another way of putting it is that she flooded Ellen with an entire lifetime of memories without her informed consent, which however well intentioned can still only be classified as a violation of her mind and spirit.

 

Were those additional memories immediately merged into her personal history, or were they initially "as if read in a book" and only became really a part of her when and if she decided to accept them? That would be a way to provide the necessary experience with a lot less violation -- plus, she could assert her individuality by picking and choosing those she wanted to accept.

[The Old Hack 2,448]

13 minutes ago, Haylo said:

Were those additional memories immediately merged into her personal history, or were they initially "as if read in a book" and only became really a part of her when and if she decided to accept them? That would be a way to provide the necessary experience with a lot less violation -- plus, she could assert her individuality by picking and choosing those she wanted to accept.

The former. See here and here.

I love Dan and his work, but some of it -- especially the earlier parts -- could get problematic. This is a prime example.

[hkmaly 490]

1 hour ago, Haylo said:

Were those additional memories immediately merged into her personal history, or were they initially "as if read in a book" and only became really a part of her when and if she decided to accept them?

Technically, neither. They were merged gradually during multiple "dreams", but without any choice on her part. Only part she almost rejected was seduction of Archie. So, definitely no "less violation". Especially if you take into account sex was included - the fact that Ellen experienced sex without consenting to it raises all sort of red flags.

I still think the story is better this way, but if Nioi is supposed to be good character, she's not doing it well.

(For comparison, Grace also didn't deserve what she got ... but it was Damien's fault and Dan apologized.)

[The Old Hack 2,448]

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

I still think the story is better this way, but if Nioi is supposed to be good character, she's not doing it well.

That is what makes it problematic. If Nioi is supposed to be a good character, she stepped way out of line. The problem isn't what she did, it was that she was never called out for it and that you never saw any in-story consequences. Ellen did not struggle with her new memories, she simply accepted them. So did everybody else when she told them. This is frankly rather chilling to me. What is especially chilling is that Nioi acted on the basis of intuition she believed fitted the observed events. She had nothing solid whatsoever to work with. Her mental intervention had all the credibility of heroic medicine and for all we know it was about as effective.

[Tom Sewell 268]

4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

More likely Lord Tedd isn't exactly stable ... if there would be two Tedds, they would refer to them differently ...

Well, not necessarily two Tedds from the same universe. We don't have much to go on here since Nioi didn't show up at all until the fourth arc. We've never seen her and Lord Tedd together; we've only seen her talking about Lord Tedd or Lord Tedd talking about Nioi, the latter in a single comic.

Edward said that Grace must not have died in that universe after seeing General Shade Tail in the background of the picture of Lord Tedd with his gauntlet after the final defeat of the Goo in Sister I. Which Grace? Remember, our Grace is the equivalent of General Shade Tail, so Edward was probably talking about Dr. Sciuridae's daughter who was killed since the reason our Grace exists instead of General Shade Tail is because  Dr. Sciuridae used his late daughter's blood instead of the blood from of the man used to create General Shade Tail. The simplest explanation is that Edward somehow knows of one universe where Lord Tedd exists--but there may be an implication that Edward knows of more than one such universe because he seems surprised that our Tedd's Grace exists at all.

The other big factoid which bears on my theory is that Nioi is her Lord Tedd's equivalent of our Tedd's Grace. What is the best thing to happen to our Tedd? Grace, of course. What's the best thing we know of that's happened to Lord Tedd? Nioi. The Lord Tedd we've been assuming is the only Lord Tedd might be a creation of Nioi's Dewitchery Diamond with that universe's equivalent a Tess or a Terra who'd been zapped into a male. Even if he wasn't created by that Dewitchery Diamond, Nioi's the only person who we know makes Lord Tedd happy and less of a heartless tyrant.

Is it canon that the universe of Second Life actually exists? I don't think it is one way or another, but it is so detailed that it seems real. Whether it's real or not, we know that Nioi put memories into Ellen that are a lot more more that can be accounted for from a few weeks of even vivid mundane dreaming.

It's possible that Nioi really doesn't believe in reincarnation; she could have believed in it once but has grown agnostic, neither sure that reincarnation can exist, or that it can't exist, but it's part of the culture she grew up with. And think about Santa Claus. Do you actually think there are real parents who mean it when they say Santa is real to their children? Nioi used this power to help Ellen, whether or not she was sure what she told Ellen was entirely true. I think she could and should have done the same for Lord Tedd.

Going off into a bit of a tangent, there was a warlord who does seem similar to Lord Tedd: Ashoka the Great. Buddhists would know about Ashoka. The basics are that Ashoka had a large empire, killed a large number of people making it even larger, and then promoted Buddhism--which, of course, is rather large on reincarnation. So are Hindus; Ashoka's empire covered a lot of the Indian subcontinent. 

2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Technically, neither. They were merged gradually during multiple "dreams", but without any choice on her part. Only part she almost rejected was seduction of Archie. So, definitely no "less violation". Especially if you take into account sex was included - the fact that Ellen experienced sex without consenting to it raises all sort of red flags.

One flag of uncertain color it raises for me is that what Second Life Ellen did with Archie is similar to what Melissa and Justin. Far from a perfect match, but still at least Justin seemed to be less inclined to having sex with his friend even if he hadn't discovered he was gay. Of course, Second Life Ellen remained friends with Archie afterward while Justin hated Melissa for a long time and Melissa refused to face reality for a long time.

30 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

That is what makes it problematic. If Nioi is supposed to be a good character, she stepped way out of line. The problem isn't what she did, it was that she was never called out for it and that you never saw any in-story consequences. Ellen did not struggle with her new memories, she simply accepted them. So did everybody else when she told them. This is frankly rather chilling to me. What is especially chilling is that Nioi acted on the basis of intuition she believed fitted the observed events. She had nothing solid whatsoever to work with. Her mental intervention had all the credibility of heroic medicine and for all we know it was about as effective.

So far the Second Life Dreams have worked out pretty well. As for in-story  consequences for Nioi, we haven't seen Nioi since Grace's birthday party, and then only when Ellen finishes explaining the end of her Second Life Dreams. Note that Ellen's Second Life memories continue past graduating high school, more than a year away from Grace's last birthday. Nioi led Ellen believe that a soul younger than its body was the problem, which sounds like Ellen now has a soul older than her body. Whether that's true or not, the memories given to Ellen included doing the wrong thing with Archie but being forgiven and believing that Archie didn't have to forgive her, which seems to be a pretty good thing for anyone to internalize.

That said, yes, Nioi's power to do what she did does sound like it could be used with bad intent. Anyone guess why Rumiko Takahashi's Shampoo is named so? It's because she can wash memories out of your hair, like Nellie Forbush in South Pacific tried to Wash that man right of her hair. 

Brainwashing. It's something we accused Chinese of doing, and Shampoo is Chinese.

Finally, what do you mean when you said "heroic medicine" here? Bloodletting? Lobotomies? Doctors playing God? Mustard Plasters? Goat Gland Implants? Hysterectomies for 13-year old girls to cure irregular periods? Electric powered probes to stick up your butt (I found one of those in my late stepfather's things and sent it to the Museum of Questionable Medical Practices.) 

[The Old Hack 2,448]

4 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

So far the Second Life Dreams have worked out pretty well.

Have they? So far they have not done any visible harm. That is not quite the same thing. You will forgive me for being suspicious of this as just because the story shows no sign of harm does not mean it can not be harmful. An example: many works of fiction try to romanticise abusive relationships and give them happy endings. This is not precisely helpful in real life.

7 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

As for in-story  consequences for Nioi, we haven't seen Nioi since Grace's birthday party, and then only when Ellen finishes explaining the end of her Second Life Dreams.

She need not be present for consequences to occur. Example: when Ellen related her experiences, one or more of the characters might have voiced suspicions or misgivings. That would count as a consequence even if they never meet her again.

8 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

Nioi led Ellen believe that a soul younger than its body was the problem,

That is another part of the problem. Nioi based this on suppositions and observations that led her to conclusions she only thought probably fit. Let us say that someone falls ill with the flu. A well-intentioned healer gives them small doses of lead and mercury. The person recovers, so obviously the 'cure' worked; from this the healer decides that lead and mercury have healing properties.

11 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

Whether that's true or not, the memories given to Ellen included doing the wrong thing with Archie but being forgiven and believing that Archie didn't have to forgive her, which seems to be a pretty good thing for anyone to internalize.

See above. Nioi was not sure what she was doing. Now imagine that a similar treatment of another patient resulted in them being unwittingly treated to years of abuse that their dimensional twin experienced. They get 'cured' of the 'soul issue' which is only a hypothesis of Nioi's but also afflicted with all the consequences of that abuse, including possible PTSD or similar forms of trauma. Good work.

14 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

Finally, what do you mean when you said "heroic medicine" here? Bloodletting? Lobotomies?

More or less exactly that. Google it. Doctors used arsenic and mercury as 'medicines' and let out blood of sick patients. One US president who was the victim of an assassination attempt was given a blood transfusion where the blood came from a lamb. (Obviously, the poor man died.) In short, doctors operating from untrustworthy ideas and misunderstood observations. If you were very very lucky, this might include some actual empirically tested evidence like Dr. Semmelweiss learning from much-despised midwives that it is actually a good idea to wash your hands before you attempt to deliver a baby. (He was laughed out by his fellow doctors, of course. What do women know of giving birth?)

[Scotty 1,061]

Just now, hkmaly said:

I still think the story is better this way, but if Nioi is supposed to be good character, she's not doing it well.

Even though it was rushed and not fully explained, Nioi did ask if she could and Ellen did agree to it, Pandora marking people without consent could be considered much worse.

[The Old Hack 2,448]

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

Even though it was rushed and not fully explained, Nioi did ask if she could and Ellen did agree to it,

In fact she didn't. She said "It sounds good, but --" and then Nioi interrupted her and did it. That is not consent in my book. Let's say someone offers you a used car and lists all its good qualities. You reply, "It sounds good, but --" and they reply, "Great!", take ten thousand dollars of your money, toss you the car keys and leave. And you weren't even sure you needed a car. Is this consent?

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

Pandora marking people without consent could be considered much worse.

I am certain it could somehow be construed in that way though I am having some trouble seeing it. My immediate reaction is that if I could pick between either having a magical power implanted in me that I did not have to use or forcibly having eighteen years of experience from an alternate self of mine inserted in my mind that I would not thenceforth be able to tell apart from my own experiences I would probably prefer the former.