story Story, Monday March 5, 2018

[ChronosCat 155]

10 hours ago, hkmaly said:

This is assuming not only that Abraham didn't actually kill any harmless "monsters", but also that there were any people seeking to undo "harmless" curse with the dewitchery diamond to start with, not speaking about possibility there were just few cases of Abraham waking up total.

Sure, Ellen didn't exactly displayed sane behaviour after being split, but she was in lot of stress and assuming she dies in month. And she got much better even BEFORE getting the second life.

It seems likely to me that there are many curses out there that change the appearance but not the mind (certainly that's the case with most of the transformations we've seen so far in EGS). If a person was stuck in a form that looked like a monster (unless they somehow lucked out with a "monster" form that culture actually respected, which would be unlikely in Medeival Europe) I think they would be pretty desperate for a cure, maybe even seeking out the Dewitchery Diamond if (like Elliot) they didn't know its' flaws. This raises the possibility of a duplicate that has a human mind in a monster body.

If there were many duplicates Abraham encountered, it's pretty likely the above scenario would have come to pass; those human-minded monsters going insane might explain why he never noticed the difference. On the other hand, if (as you suggest) there weren't very many duplicates, it wouldn't be too unlikely that the above scenario never happened. (It also occurs to me that just being trapped in monster form permanently would have been hard; some might have embraced their monster instincts to cope, resulting in a similar effect without young souls having anything to do with it.)

As for Ellen, when I first read Nioi's explanation, I figured that it took a while for the insanity to kick in. It later occurred to me that maybe Ellen's initial behavior was partially a result of a young soul, but she got over it - meaning that Nioi was right that young souls can cause problems, but wrong in thinking Ellen still needed help.

Or maybe Nioi was completely wrong. *shrug* I'm not particularly attached to this idea, I just thought it was an interesting possibility.

9 hours ago, Scotty said:

It still might be said that even if Nioi's belief wasn't accurate, what she did to Ellen was still pretty instrumental in Ellen becoming a unique individual compared to Elliot, those other memories gave her experiences that Elliot never had and so she was able to draw on both Elliot's memories, and those she gained from the second life to create her own identity.

Another way to put it would be if Ellen didn't have the second life dreams, she might have spent most of the time trying to just be the opposite of Elliot, not defaulting to decisions he'd make. That might have ended up getting her into some trouble, but with the second life memories, she could think about what Elliot might do, compare it with what SL Ellen might do, and maybe even come up with something completely different.

I think Ellen would have eventually settled down on a personality more healthy than "opposite sex non-evil evil twin", it just would have taken her longer. And if the goal was to give her her own identity, stuffing someone else's memories in her head would seem counter-productive. Indeed, for a while after Second Life began I felt like Ellen had become a completely different character from the one I had originally grown to love, and I strongly suspect Second Life was to blame. (Inconsistent characterization is also possible, but I like to give Dan the benefit of the doubt when it comes to possible mistakes in his writing.)

Thankfully she managed to become a unique individual from SL Ellen by choosing her memories from Elliot over her memories from SL Ellen, and focusing on her own life rather than either set of memories. (At least, that's how I interpret it.)

2 hours ago, Scotty said:

Even though it was rushed and not fully explained, Nioi did ask if she could and Ellen did agree to it, Pandora marking people without consent could be considered much worse.

Ellen didn't know what she was agreeing to, so it wasn't informed consent (which means it really wasn't consent at all).

What Pandora did was also a violation, and one she should be / should have been called out on, but that has no bearing on how right or wrong Nioi's actions were.

Edit: Ninja'd by the Old Hack! That was really sneaky, hiding at the end of the page and not tripping the "new post" announcement...

Edited March 6, 2018 by ChronosCat

[mlooney 3,417]

15 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

You always have to keep an eye on the toaster as well...

Don't have one.

13 hours ago, Scotty said:

With the toaster you only have to worry about random transformations.

Which might explain why I don't have a toaster.

[Haylo 57]

7 hours ago, hkmaly said:

I still think the story is better this way, but if Nioi is supposed to be good character, she's not doing it well.

I also suspect this was a case where too little dialog made trouble -- if Nioi had justified her "baby soul" theory with (in-story) rock solid evidence e.g. "We've done it before and it always worked, we've skipped it before and we still have nightmares about the results," then a drastic step like that would feel more reasonable, and Nioi giving such a justification would imply that she knew and admitted that such a step needed a lot of justification.

[The Old Hack 2,448]

1 hour ago, ChronosCat said:

Ellen didn't know what she was agreeing to, so it wasn't informed consent (which means it really wasn't consent at all).

As mentioned, she didn't even agree. She said, "It sounds good, but --" and then got interrupted by Nioi mind warping her. As consent goes, that's pretty lacking.

[Vorlonagent 442]

15 hours ago, Scotty said:

With the toaster you only have to worry about random transformations.

 

2 hours ago, mlooney said:

Which might explain why I don't have a toaster.

Depending on the transformations and length,  I may have to get a toaster...

[Scotty 1,061]

1 hour ago, The Old Hack said:

As mentioned, she didn't even agree. She said, "It sounds good, but --" and then got interrupted by Nioi mind warping her. As consent goes, that's pretty lacking.

A lot of it was riding on the fact that Nioi was basically saying "I promise this will be good for you, you just have to trust me", but Ellen's response might have been different if Nioi hadn't just recently brought Grace back from nearly being killed by Damien. Even Tedd said she'll be baking her cookies then next time they meet.

[The Old Hack 2,448]

2 minutes ago, Scotty said:

A lot of it was riding on the fact that Nioi was basically saying "I promise this will be good for you, you just have to trust me", but Ellen's response might have been different if Nioi hadn't just recently brought Grace back from nearly being killed by Damien. Even Tedd said she'll be baking her cookies then next time they meet.

And how in the world does that turn Ellen's response into informed consent, or indeed any kind of consent at all?

[Scotty 1,061]

6 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

And how in the world does that turn Ellen's response into informed consent, or indeed any kind of consent at all?

Probably not, but Nioi would have felt it was good enough considering the time constraints on her needing to be gone before Jaguar's team came in, she was also counting on her message at the end of the dreams covering what she couldn't say in person. She had also put putting off having Kaoli go through with it because she didn't want Kaoli to do it alone, Ellen was probably the only chance she had to get it done so it was as much a benefit for Kaoli as it was for Ellen. I dunno if Nioi would have taken "no" for an answer, but "sounds good" was probably as far from "no" as she needed.

You had mentioned that Pandora marking people wasn't forcing them to use the spells, but in the case of Dex, her marking him gave Voltaire an opening to manipulate Dex into trying to kill Elliot and could have also killed, Noah, Grace, Greg and Dex in the process. So while Nioi may not have gotta an actual "yes" form of consent from Ellen, she wasn't recklessly endangering lives like Pandora did.

[The Old Hack 2,448]

1 minute ago, Scotty said:

Probably not, but Nioi would have felt it was good enough

...Scotty. Please read what you just wrote. Are you seriously implying that it is proper to simply assume consent and then go ahead and radically alter someone's mind? Do you really mean that this may serve in place of informed consent? This is starting to sound like a sexual predator's excuses in court. "I thought she looked like she wanted it, so I went ahead."

3 minutes ago, Scotty said:

You had mentioned that Pandora marking people wasn't forcing them to use the spells, but in the case of Dex, her marking him gave Voltaire an opening to manipulate Dex into trying to kill Elliot

...we do not even know if Pandora did mark Dex. Voltaire stated as much that the entire Dex plan was his. He was merely trying to frame Pandora at first, then gave it up in favour of his new plan. And what would have prevented Voltaire from marking Dex on his own if Pandora had not marked him? Nothing at all. You are really reaching by attempting to give Pandora the full blame for something Voltaire instigated and which he could readily have accomplished even if she had done nothing at all.

I suggest you stop digging, Scotty. The ethical hole you are in is already quite deep enough.

[CritterKeeper 1,102]

8 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

 Electric powered probes to stick up your butt (I found one of those in my late stepfather's things and sent it to the Museum of Questionable Medical Practices.) 

 

 

That sounds like something still in use, an electroejaculator.  They're mostly used in vet med to collect semen samples, but if a man is paralyzed from the waist down and the normal reflexes don't work but the actual plumbing is intact, and he wants to be a father.....

If you want questionable medicine, look up "hysteria" and all the weird beliefs associated with it!

[Tom Sewell 268]

 

4 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

As mentioned, she didn't even agree. She said, "It sounds good, but --" and then got interrupted by Nioi mind warping her. As consent goes, that's pretty lacking.

Lacking, but maybe not entirely lacking. In the comics before, Nioi explained the Dewitchery Diamonds in a way that seems to jive with what Edward related about the artifact, what Raven told Abraham about the artifact, what Pandora told her son about the Artifact and what she told Magus and what Pandora might have told Sirleck about the Dewitchery Diamond, and what we saw the artifact as it created Ellen. That could be a pretty good indication that Nioi might have told the truth and/or believed she'd been telling the truth, which supports that same support for Nioi believing what she told him from reincarnation to going out through the magic door was good stuff, or at least done with good intentions. There's also a detail that provides a decent excuse for her not to tell Ellen exactly what she's about to do and why she left so quickly: In the top of the third panel Nioi says to Ellen "In any case, you don't have your own memories of childhood, and it's the same with my--" but she doesn't finish.  In the bottom of the third panel Nioi thinks "They're almost here". Fourth panel won't harm you, couldn't hurt, fifth panel "Well, it sounds good but", beepage, "Great!", sixth panel "good for both of you", Seventh Panel "Gotta go! Have good dreams!" and Nioi's just got some of her tail in our side of the magic door.

I'm guessing Dan did this so he could maintain suspense until Ellen reveals the end of her last dream and Nioi's epilogue to all the rest of the Main Eight after her big Karaoke victory. Or did he have that resolution in mind when  he wrote this comic? The point here is that  that the my that "My--" referred to may not have been Kaoli.  Maybe Nioi was so sure it wouldn't harm or transform Ellen and Kaoli in any way is that Kaoli had already done the same thing for someone else, And maybe the Second Life Tedd could have been been linked to Lord Tedd. Possibly Lord Tedd will have special feelings for Ellen if he ever shows up again.

[The Old Hack 2,448]

2 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

Lacking, but maybe not entirely lacking.

Stop right there. Please. It is either informed consent or it isn't. Maybe you want to defend Nioi. I get that. But if your method of doing that is to attempt to twist 'nonconsensual' into 'but she really wanted it and it was good for her', I can get that at any trial where a sleazy lawyer is defending a rapist. It makes me feel just as sick there.

I am not saying that Nioi is evil or that EGS is a bad comic. I am saying that Nioi screwed badly up, good intentions or no. And I am saying that that entire storyline is problematical because the absence of consent is never taken up again.

It is perfectly all right to like a story or movie or other kind of artistic work even if it is problematic. But if you do not acknowledge that there is a problem and consider that it could have been done better, you are effectively choosing to turn a blind eye to the problem -- and doing that can be habit forming. Once you get into the habit of justifying lack of consent it can carry over into real life. Conversely, if you do confront the problem, you become better at recognising it when you encounter it elsewhere.

This is my last word on this topic. If you still do not agree, fine. Just do me the courtesy of not making any further attempts to convince me that it was Ellen's own fault for wearing those clothes. I find it sickening and repulsive.

[Scotty 1,061]

2 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

...Scotty. Please read what you just wrote. Are you seriously implying that it is proper to simply assume consent and then go ahead and radically alter someone's mind? Do you really mean that this may serve in place of informed consent? This is starting to sound like a sexual predator's excuses in court. "I thought she looked like she wanted it, so I went ahead."

...we do not even know if Pandora did mark Dex. Voltaire stated as much that the entire Dex plan was his. He was merely trying to frame Pandora at first, then gave it up in favour of his new plan. And what would have prevented Voltaire from marking Dex on his own if Pandora had not marked him? Nothing at all. You are really reaching by attempting to give Pandora the full blame for something Voltaire instigated and which he could readily have accomplished even if she had done nothing at all.

I suggest you stop digging, Scotty. The ethical hole you are in is already quite deep enough.

I feel that ethics and good intentions don't always see eye to eye. Nioi's actions were questionable, but if she left without beeping Ellen's nose after already saying what she said and then something did happen to Ellen, would we be questioning Nioi's ethics still? I imagine many would be like "If she suspected that this would happen to Ellen, why didn't she just beep her nose anyway?"

Nioi believed that Kaoli had a condition that could be detrimental in the long run, she in turn also believed that Ellen had the same condition and believed she could fix it so they they could continue to live healthy lives. She was under pressure from both the arrival of Jaguar's team and possibly even needed to get back before Lord Tedd got too worried about her whereabouts (or maybe before General Shade Tail suspected anything) so she did what she felt was the right thing to do. We could debate about every case where someone claimed that they believed their actions were the right thing to do and whether or not ethics agrees with it but we'll likely find many cases where they just don't jive. The question of whether or not she was right is long passed, we'll probably never know if Ellen would have been worse off if Nioi didn't do anything, but would we stop her from doing it again if the situation arose?

As for Pandora, I swore there was a comic where she acknowledged marking Dex, but can't find it at the moment so I'm now unsure, at best Voltaire only admits to pumping power into Dex and manipulating him, he doesn't admit to marking him, that could imply Pandora marking Dex first and Voltaire leaving the pendant later, Dex had said he noticed the mark on the Friday and then summoned his first fairy on Saturday, so it might have been Sunday or Monday when he found the pendant. Pandora could have easily marked Dex then went on one of her week long naps allowing Voltaire to move in, but that would be speculation at this point.

[The Old Hack 2,448]

16 minutes ago, Scotty said:

I feel that ethics and good intentions don't always see eye to eye.

Allow me to be more direct since my last post apparently did not serve the purpose.

Drop the subject, please. Or I will be forced to don my moderator hat and lock the thread. That is all.

[hkmaly 490]

11 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

Remember, our Grace is the equivalent of General Shade Tail, so Edward was probably talking about Dr. Sciuridae's daughter who was killed since the reason our Grace exists instead of General Shade Tail is because  Dr. Sciuridae used his late daughter's blood instead of the blood from of the man used to create General Shade Tail. The simplest explanation is that Edward somehow knows of one universe where Lord Tedd exists--but there may be an implication that Edward knows of more than one such universe because he seems surprised that our Tedd's Grace exists at all.

He was surprised she found him. He KNOWS she existed. I don't think Edwards need to know any specific alternate universe at all - just having idea how alternate universes work would be enough for him to assume that if General Shade Tail exists in that universe Grace can't.

11 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

11 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

As for in-story  consequences for Nioi, we haven't seen Nioi since Grace's birthday party, and then only when Ellen finishes explaining the end of her Second Life Dreams.

She need not be present for consequences to occur. Example: when Ellen related her experiences, one or more of the characters might have voiced suspicions or misgivings. That would count as a consequence even if they never meet her again.

Yes. ESPECIALLY given who Nioi was.

11 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

See above. Nioi was not sure what she was doing. Now imagine that a similar treatment of another patient resulted in them being unwittingly treated to years of abuse that their dimensional twin experienced. They get 'cured' of the 'soul issue' which is only a hypothesis of Nioi's but also afflicted with all the consequences of that abuse, including possible PTSD or similar forms of trauma. Good work.

And that's still assuming good intentions (although also failure to screen the memories before implanting - I would actually assume Nioi KNEW what she's implanting, or at least that the Ellen in that universe turned out ok).

Deliberate misuse of such power could make Ellen programmed killer.

8 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

10 hours ago, Scotty said:

Pandora marking people without consent could be considered much worse.

I am certain it could somehow be construed in that way though I am having some trouble seeing it.

Especially considering the marks are based on the people's desires and/or innate talents. Ashley explicitly COULDN'T be marked with some transformation because she would resisted it. While still not ideal that Pandora doesn't ask for consent and actually doesn't even explain what she did, it's likely very hard to mark someone with spell they wouldn't like.

On the other hand, there are famous cases of powers originally though to be fantastic then proving to be curse ...

8 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

If there were many duplicates Abraham encountered, it's pretty likely the above scenario would have come to pass; those human-minded monsters going insane might explain why he never noticed the difference. On the other hand, if (as you suggest) there weren't very many duplicates, it wouldn't be too unlikely that the above scenario never happened. (It also occurs to me that just being trapped in monster form permanently would have been hard; some might have embraced their monster instincts to cope, resulting in a similar effect without young souls having anything to do with it.)

Yes ; even if the monster forms instincts weren't overpowering the human mind inside (which seemed to be what happened with werewolves), the mind embracing them or going insane from being permanently forced into such condition is simpler explanation than the young soul stuff.

8 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

I think Ellen would have eventually settled down on a personality more healthy than "opposite sex non-evil evil twin", it just would have taken her longer. And if the goal was to give her her own identity, stuffing someone else's memories in her head would seem counter-productive. Indeed, for a while after Second Life began I felt like Ellen had become a completely different character from the one I had originally grown to love, and I strongly suspect Second Life was to blame. (Inconsistent characterization is also possible, but I like to give Dan the benefit of the doubt when it comes to possible mistakes in his writing.)

Thankfully she managed to become a unique individual from SL Ellen by choosing her memories from Elliot over her memories from SL Ellen, and focusing on her own life rather than either set of memories. (At least, that's how I interpret it.)

Hard to say if second life helped or hurt (and hard to say if that would be realistic, so leaving it open is probably best) but I would say Ellen would need some time to became her own person in ANY case.

Second life memories probably did helped regarding various female-specific knowledge Elliot obviously lacked, although I would expect there are other ways Ellen could obtain such knowledge. (Like, ask her mother. Or Nanase.)

Can you give some example of how you think second life changed Ellen "for worse"?

7 hours ago, Haylo said:

I also suspect this was a case where too little dialog made trouble -- if Nioi had justified her "baby soul" theory with (in-story) rock solid evidence e.g. "We've done it before and it always worked, we've skipped it before and we still have nightmares about the results," then a drastic step like that would feel more reasonable, and Nioi giving such a justification would imply that she knew and admitted that such a step needed a lot of justification.

Yes, that would be better ... except it's implied this was NOT tried before. Also there is no "we", seems like Nioi's own idea.

4 hours ago, Scotty said:

Probably not, but Nioi would have felt it was good enough considering the time constraints on her needing to be gone before Jaguar's team came in, she was also counting on her message at the end of the dreams covering what she couldn't say in person.

The message at the end of the dreams is WAY too late. At that point, the original Ellen doesn't really exists to give any consent.

Which reminds me that while not solving everything, even showing Nioi having doubts about it afterwards and voicing that "this was likely only opportunity for both Ellen and Kaoli" angle would be better.  "Great - Gotta Go!" is not good.

1 hour ago, The Old Hack said:

It is perfectly all right to like a story or movie or other kind of artistic work even if it is problematic. But if you do not acknowledge that there is a problem and consider that it could have been done better, you are effectively choosing to turn a blind eye to the problem -- and doing that can be habit forming.

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

I imagine many would be like "If she suspected that this would happen to Ellen, why didn't she just beep her nose anyway?"

The Old Hack don't want to repeat himself so I'll try: even assuming what Nioi did was the best available course of action (which it might), the comics should STILL acknowledge that it was only best available because other, better courses were not possible - as opposed to them not existing.

It's not realistic to expect heroes never do anything wrong. Attempts of those usually ends up caricatures and bad stories. But heroes should ACKNOWLEDGE there is problem, not pretend it's ok. It's villains who are sure they didn't do anything wrong.

[The Old Hack 2,448]

The Moderator: And we are done.

~tOH.