story Story, Wednesday March 7, 2018

[The Old Hack 2,448]

2 hours ago, partner555 said:

Not for (bad) Tom, but that (verbal) hammering likely did a lot of good for every woman who saw it or heard of it.

If it didn't do him any good, then it is entirely because he resisted the lesson she was teaching. I have been called out many a time myself. I find that when I pay attention, I always learn something. Very often about myself; always about the person doing the calling out. And since the latter part may apply to others as well -- possibly a great number of other people -- I find that to frequently be the more important part of the lesson.

[Vorlonagent 442]

5 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

If it didn't do him any good, then it is entirely because he resisted the lesson she was teaching. I have been called out many a time myself. I find that when I pay attention, I always learn something. Very often about myself; always about the person doing the calling out. And since the latter part may apply to others as well -- possibly a great number of other people -- I find that to frequently be the more important part of the lesson.

..so if you want to learn more about people get them to yell at you...

[The Old Hack 2,448]

3 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

..so if you want to learn more about people get them to yell at you...

That is highly manipulative but if done correctly can be very effective. People show more of their true nature when they are angry. It is one reason that insults, veiled or otherwise, are such a large part of politics. An angry opponent is not only more likely to make mistakes but also to unwittingly show personality facets they might have preferred to keep hidden.

[Vorlonagent 442]

5 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

That is highly manipulative but if done correctly can be very effective. People show more of their true nature when they are angry. It is one reason that insults, veiled or otherwise, are such a large part of politics. An angry opponent is not only more likely to make mistakes but also to unwittingly show personality facets they might have preferred to keep hidden.

...so how do so many people with poor self-control make it into public office?

[The Old Hack 2,448]

Just now, Vorlonagent said:

...so how do so many people with poor self-control make it into public office?

Many of them actually have excellent self-control. Once they have a secure grip of power, some of them simply do not bother anymore. They figure that in most cases, displays of temper will be long forgotten by the time the next election rolls around. In other cases, temper is seen by some voters as a feature, not a bug. In their eyes it makes politicians seem manly and strong, unless of course they are women who if they lose their temper are instead deemed hysterical and weak. Similarly, a male politician who shouts is being firm whereas a female one is shrill. Misogyny has deep roots in the political system.

[Vorlonagent 442]

1 minute ago, The Old Hack said:

Many of them actually have excellent self-control. Once they have a secure grip of power, some of them simply do not bother anymore. They figure that in most cases, displays of temper will be long forgotten by the time the next election rolls around. In other cases, temper is seen by some voters as a feature, not a bug. In their eyes it makes politicians seem manly and strong, unless of course they are women who if they lose their temper are instead deemed hysterical and weak. Similarly, a male politician who shouts is being firm whereas a female one is shrill. Misogyny has deep roots in the political system.

Only because there's still some misogyny still abroad in the popular subconscious and clearing that out is just going to take time.  Women will have to establish what female "strength" sounds like.  That's going to be a problem, certainly in the US because US politics so strongly caters to emotion and attempts to elicit emotional responses.

True decisiveness often speaks with a calm voice.

[The Old Hack 2,448]

9 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

Only because there's still some misogyny still abroad in the popular subconscious and clearing that out is just going to take time.

I prefer to let Americans speak for the US system but I can with confidence state this of Denmark: misogyny is still alive and rampant, and so is racism. We have made some progress against the former, not so much against the latter. But in neither case is it simply a matter of 'clearing it out.' It is an ongoing struggle against a growth more like kudzu than merely mowing down corn. Every gain must be fought for and afterwards jealously guarded so we will not lose it again. Changing a society is a struggle of generations and lifetimes and sometimes the opposing forces tear deep chasms in the fabric that binds it together. *sigh*

[Vorlonagent 442]

5 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

I prefer to let Americans speak for the US system but I can with confidence state this of Denmark: misogyny is still alive and rampant, and so is racism. We have made some progress against the former, not so much against the latter. But in neither case is it simply a matter of 'clearing it out.' It is an ongoing struggle against a growth more like kudzu than merely mowing down corn. Every gain must be fought for and afterwards jealously guarded so we will not lose it again. Changing a society is a struggle of generations and lifetimes and sometimes the opposing forces tear deep chasms in the fabric that binds it together. *sigh*

The topic of how bad things are in the US is really something for the Politics thread, so I'm going to leave it alone.  The multi-generational problem of cleaning out the "isms" embedded in the collective mind of a nation is what I am referring to when I say, "clearing it out is going to take time".  You would be lucky if turning deep societal perceptions are only as hard as turning a battleship or aircraft carrier. 

Gains and losses are going to be the order of the day too, unfortunate as any losses would be.  It's all a process of trial by fire.  The harder the goal, the hotter the flame, the better the results.  Maybe what looks like a loss is just taking a piece back to the fire to burn some dross off it.  The really important stuff will stay, even if it doesn't look like it sometimes, especially if anybody can make money or further their political career by claiming things are worse than they are.

But we'll get there.  Denmark will get there.  The US will get there.  It's inevitable.  Civilization just has about 10,000 years of mommy and daddy issues to work through.

[hkmaly 490]

3 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

3 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

Only because there's still some misogyny still abroad in the popular subconscious and clearing that out is just going to take time.

I prefer to let Americans speak for the US system but I can with confidence state this of Denmark: misogyny is still alive and rampant, and so is racism. We have made some progress against the former, not so much against the latter. But in neither case is it simply a matter of 'clearing it out.' It is an ongoing struggle against a growth more like kudzu than merely mowing down corn. Every gain must be fought for and afterwards jealously guarded so we will not lose it again. Changing a society is a struggle of generations and lifetimes and sometimes the opposing forces tear deep chasms in the fabric that binds it together. *sigh*

Racism is to divide people by color of their skin. So far, I see very few attempts to stop that: most activists and "anti-racism" politicians prefer to divide people by color, then ensure that all groups get fair treatment. Sure, looking at how unfair treatment some groups are currently getting, ensuring fair treatment for all seems worthy goal, but I have strong suspicion that it is not really helping us to get rid of racism ... and looking at what politicians are doing, balancing all groups seems harder than originally expected. Assuming they are really trying. Botched attempt can make the racism worse.

3 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

But we'll get there.  Denmark will get there.  The US will get there.  It's inevitable.  Civilization just has about 10,000 years of mommy and daddy issues to work through.

It's definitely not inevitable, unfortunately. But we can hope.

[Vorlonagent 442]

2 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

It's definitely not inevitable, unfortunately. But we can hope.

I think it is inevitable.  The US "melting pot" has done it for previous racial and cultural divisions.  There's no reason why it won't work with women and the current set of protected minorities.  The big difference is the current set are trying a different strategy.  For reasons you state, that strategy may not be successful.  If not successful, equality may not occur until sometime after failure is understood, accepted and some other approach emerges.  maybe even what worked before.

[hkmaly 490]

50 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

59 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

It's definitely not inevitable, unfortunately. But we can hope.

I think it is inevitable.  The US "melting pot" has done it for previous racial and cultural divisions.  There's no reason why it won't work with women and the current set of protected minorities.  The big difference is the current set are trying a different strategy.  For reasons you state, that strategy may not be successful.  If not successful, equality may not occur until sometime after failure is understood, accepted and some other approach emerges.  maybe even what worked before.

The part I'm afraid of is the "failure is understood". I'm not sure there is upper limit on how long THAT could take.

[Vorlonagent 442]

1 minute ago, hkmaly said:

The part I'm afraid of is the "failure is understood". I'm not sure there is upper limit on how long THAT could take.

There isn't an upper limit per se, but all things end eventually.

[CritterKeeper 1,102]

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

I think it is inevitable.  The US "melting pot" has done it for previous racial and cultural divisions.  There's no reason why it won't work with women and the current set of protected minorities.  The big difference is the current set are trying a different strategy.  For reasons you state, that strategy may not be successful.  If not successful, equality may not occur until sometime after failure is understood, accepted and some other approach emerges.  maybe even what worked before.

What worked before was that the children and grandchildren of the Irish, Italians, Poles, Russians, etc. grew up in America, learned to speak English as fluently as everyone else, and blended in enough that their "racial" differences (and they were considered different races at one time) were small enough the rest of the population could accept and embrace them.  What's different now is that the various minorities look different enough that blending in is going to take a lot more generations.  We'll either have to figure out how to go from a "melting pot" to a hearty chunky stew, incorporating without absorbing, or wait until there's been enough intermarriage that appearance is a continuum that everyone sees all of every day.  Like I said, that will take a long time.  Here's hoping we learn to love stew!

[Vorlonagent 442]

14 minutes ago, CritterKeeper said:

What worked before was that the children and grandchildren of the Irish, Italians, Poles, Russians, etc. grew up in America, learned to speak English as fluently as everyone else, and blended in enough that their "racial" differences (and they were considered different races at one time) were small enough the rest of the population could accept and embrace them.  What's different now is that the various minorities look different enough that blending in is going to take a lot more generations.  We'll either have to figure out how to go from a "melting pot" to a hearty chunky stew, incorporating without absorbing, or wait until there's been enough intermarriage that appearance is a continuum that everyone sees all of every day.  Like I said, that will take a long time.  Here's hoping we learn to love stew!

I don't think a different formula to "melting pot" is needed.  Maybe more time is to integrate a greater more obvious difference, perhaps.  I don't think "melting pot" is even being tried at the moment.  Not intentionally anyway.  Great emphasis is being put on demographic differences between people and creating elaborate, often government backed schemes for "equalizing" those differences.  (if equality is ever actually achieved, these schemes will by definition all need to be dismantled). 

We are far more alike than we alike than we are different.  I believe emphasizing differences between demographic groups in order to end different treatment is self-defeating.  I think looking upon the differences between groups as trivial to a common identity is superior. 

[hkmaly 490]

5 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

There isn't an upper limit per se, but all things end eventually.

Well, technically, but lot of people don't consider "both groups went extinct" as valid solution of their differences.

And remember we have deadline.

3 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

I don't think "melting pot" is even being tried at the moment.  Not intentionally anyway.  Great emphasis is being put on demographic differences between people and creating elaborate, often government backed schemes for "equalizing" those differences.  (if equality is ever actually achieved, these schemes will by definition all need to be dismantled). 

Yes. That's the "ensure that all groups get fair treatment" I was speaking of. Or at least it's SUPPOSED to be about fair treatment.

As long as we are equalizing some groups, those groups are being separated by those equalizing schemes.

3 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

I believe emphasizing differences between demographic groups in order to end different treatment is self-defeating.  I think looking upon the differences between groups as trivial to a common identity is superior. 

Definitely. But politicians can build career on that equalizing schemes better. And sometimes it has quicker results - question is if those are correct results.

Of course, fair treatment is necessary. But at some point, we need to say that the treatment is already fair enough and we need to stop equalizing and start on common identity. Now, are we at that point already? I suspect that's very loaded question better not discussed here.

(Also, different countries will have different answers to that question.)

 

[The Old Hack 2,448]

3 hours ago, hkmaly said:

And remember we have deadline.

By that time the melting pot will have become a freezing pot anyway.

[CritterKeeper 1,102]

7 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Well, technically, but lot of people don't consider "both groups went extinct" as valid solution of their differences.

The people who are favored by inequalities tend to advocate patience.  The people who are suffering from those inequalities tend to think asking them to wait that long is ridiculous and we need to be more proactive.

7 hours ago, hkmaly said:

As long as we are equalizing some groups, those groups are being separated by those equalizing schemes.

The groups are already separated by those inequalities.  We're nowhere near close enough to say any different.

7 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Of course, fair treatment is necessary. But at some point, we need to say that the treatment is already fair enough and we need to stop equalizing and start on common identity. Now, are we at that point already? I suspect that's very loaded question better not discussed here.

I suspect members of those groups would find it laughable to even suggest we're anywhere near that point, and say we need to do a lot more equalizing before there's any chance at more of a common identity.

 

[Drasvin 123]

Like popping the cork on a bottle, going from magically-enforced calm to normal emotional control can lead to a flood of energy and emotion. Still being in a high stress situation when said magically-enforced calm ends certainly doesn't help.

9 hours ago, hkmaly said:

And remember we have deadline.

I would think the deadline for humanity reaching equality would be a lot sooner than that, though I guess it would very much be an ultimate deadline as a more realistic one will vary on multiple factors.

Though, in a much more morbid line of thinking, death is said to be the great equalizer, so when the universe itself is dead, then all will be equal.

[Vorlonagent 442]

12 hours ago, hkmaly said:

And remember we have deadline.

We have a much more pressing deadline than that.  The Sun goes nova in only a handful of billion years.  We've to to get off this rock by then or evolve into beings of pure thought with no corporeal form.

...which, come to think of it, ought to solve the problem.

[hkmaly 490]

9 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

Quote

Of course, fair treatment is necessary. But at some point, we need to say that the treatment is already fair enough and we need to stop equalizing and start on common identity. Now, are we at that point already? I suspect that's very loaded question better not discussed here.

I suspect members of those groups would find it laughable to even suggest we're anywhere near that point, and say we need to do a lot more equalizing before there's any chance at more of a common identity.

Ohhhhh, OF COURSE they will.

9 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

The people who are favored by inequalities tend to advocate patience.  The people who are suffering from those inequalities tend to think asking them to wait that long is ridiculous and we need to be more proactive.

Even not actively favored, just not suffering makes harder to see reason to rush.

Meaning, we lack anyone capable to evaluate it fairly. It's hard to find middle ground when noone is standing on it.

4 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

16 hours ago, hkmaly said:

And remember we have deadline.

We have a much more pressing deadline than that.  The Sun goes nova in only a handful of billion years.  We've to to get off this rock by then

... what makes you think that we can't leave this rock still divided? In fact, people of different nationality / ethnicity / whatever colonizing different planets makes VERY good sense.

(People of different sex / gender colonizing different planets does not, although I wouldn't be THAT much surprised if, say, lesbians would take some medical research and want to try that live without men. Depending on how good that research would be, it may even WORK.)

4 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

or evolve into beings of pure thought with no corporeal form.

That SHOULD at least take care of the skin color problem, yes. It might also have big influence on the religion issue.

 

[Vorlonagent 442]

59 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

... what makes you think that we can't leave this rock still divided? In fact, people of different nationality / ethnicity / whatever colonizing different planets makes VERY good sense.

I was hoping for the whole "working together to save humanity" thing...

There are stories of exactly that happening.  different parts of Earth blasting off for different parts of the cosmos.  I think it was the co Dominium universe where everybody had to get off Earth and the white South Africans secretly outfitted the entire city of Cape Town for space travel and went to find their own world, which turned out to be really, REALLY monster infested.  They made a go of it and they're holding their own, but whenever the co-Dominium has spare unwanted people, they get sent to that world.   "Crunch all you want, we'll make more."

59 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

(People of different sex / gender colonizing different planets does not, although I wouldn't be THAT much surprised if, say, lesbians would take some medical research and want to try that live without men. Depending on how good that research would be, it may even WORK.)

We shouldn't be too far off from attempting to fuse 2 ovum or extract the genetics from one and put it in the other....

59 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

That SHOULD at least take care of the skin color problem, yes. It might also have big influence on the religion issue.

That's what I thought too, though ideology divides might still exist.

[CritterKeeper 1,102]

38 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

We shouldn't be too far off from attempting to fuse 2 ovum or extract the genetics from one and put it in the other....

Been there, done that, over a decade ago!

[hkmaly 490]

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

... what makes you think that we can't leave this rock still divided? In fact, people of different nationality / ethnicity / whatever colonizing different planets makes VERY good sense.

I was hoping for the whole "working together to save humanity" thing...

People's capacity to work together and unite against shared enemy is only surpassed by their ability to forget about it and start infighting the moment the shared enemy is destroyed. I can see the people with various ethnicities, after solving some hard problem together, celebrate together that they are big step closer to the time they finally won't need to be together.

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

There are stories of exactly that happening.  different parts of Earth blasting off for different parts of the cosmos.  I think it was the co Dominium

I think there are REALLY lot of stories like that.

It's the suspension of disbelief stuff. FTL travel, replicators, colonization of galaxy, telepathy, fine, but you can't expect average viewer just 50 years ago to believe people of different color can kiss. That was too much.

(Some still thinks it's too much.)

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

That SHOULD at least take care of the skin color problem, yes. It might also have big influence on the religion issue.

That's what I thought too, though ideology divides might still exist.

I didn't said it will SOLVE the religion issue. I'm not even sure it will HELP with it.

It also won't completely solve gender issue, as gender is not just question of physical body.

1 hour ago, CritterKeeper said:

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

We shouldn't be too far off from attempting to fuse 2 ovum or extract the genetics from one and put it in the other....

Been there, done that, over a decade ago!

One success from 460 attempts ...

 

[Vorlonagent 442]

1 hour ago, CritterKeeper said:

Been there, done that, over a decade ago!

Not surprised in the least.  Just waiting for them to try it with people....

4 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

People's capacity to work together and unite against shared enemy is only surpassed by their ability to forget about it and start infighting the moment the shared enemy is destroyed. I can see the people with various ethnicities, after solving some hard problem together, celebrate together that they are big step closer to the time they finally won't need to be together.

IIRC, 19th Century Germany was really good at uniting against A. anybody trying to attack them and B. any German leader who tried to unify them permanently...

11 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

It's the suspension of disbelief stuff. FTL travel, replicators, colonization of galaxy, telepathy, fine, but you can't expect average viewer just 50 years ago to believe people of different color can kiss. That was too much.

(Some still thinks it's too much.)

There's SF fans and then there's the muggles of the general public...  

13 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

I didn't said it will SOLVE the religion issue. I'm not even sure it will HELP with it.

It also won't completely solve gender issue, as gender is not just question of physical body.

I thought to myself, "Being mutually telepathic would help, right?  Improved communication can't be a bad thing..."

Then I remembered the internet... 

15 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

One success from 460 attempts ...

The first time through is always going to be the hardest.  Lots of trial and error, with the emphasis on the error, maybe the occasional creation of a hellish mutant monster as nature's punishment for human arrogance... 

History shows again and again how Nature points out the folly of Man...Godzilla!

[hkmaly 490]

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

3 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

Been there, done that, over a decade ago!

Not surprised in the least.  Just waiting for them to try it with people....

To try ... or to publish it?

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

One success from 460 attempts ...

The first time through is always going to be the hardest.  Lots of trial and error, with the emphasis on the error,

Of course. Next time it will possibly be just 200 attempts. I don't think we are READY to try on humans.

1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

maybe the occasional creation of a hellish mutant monster as nature's punishment for human arrogance... 

History shows again and again how Nature points out the folly of Man...Godzilla!

... of course, there were lot of researchers who didn't waited until being ready. Some even succeed.