Story Friday October 21, 2016

[hkmaly 490]

34 minutes ago, Scotty said:

As long as she's able to keep herself from expecting to find something. Like Pandora said, if Sarah lifted up someone's shirt expecting to find a magic mark, then there's a good chance her imagination will put a mark there whether there actually is one or not

Pandora actually said finger-snapping their clothes away could result in seeing mark that doesn't exists, while manually undressing them is safer. So, lifting up someone's shirt is ok.

38 minutes ago, Scotty said:

It'd be just like the body swapping, Sarah would need to learn to discipline herself to keep her mind from wandering when trying to do things in the simulated space.

The body swapping seems to be on extremely light trigger. I think that not doing anything which may change content of documents will be easier, although she will need to be careful.

[Scotty 1,061]

2 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Pandora actually said finger-snapping their clothes away could result in seeing mark that doesn't exists, while manually undressing them is safer. So, lifting up someone's shirt is ok.

I forgot the finger snapping part, but apparently swapping bodies and looking and more efficient, though I guess that's more in a "makes it easier to remove clothing" sense.

Still, Pandora did say there that Sarah's imagination and expectations will start to affect what's around her, which is what I'm talking about.

 

[hkmaly 490]

3 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Still, Pandora did say there that Sarah's imagination and expectations will start to affect what's around her, which is what I'm talking about.

Read previous page. The idea is that Sarah can do two kinds of things in simulation: things she would be able to do in reality and things ignoring laws of physics. As far as she only does the first kind, she should be getting real results. When she does the second kind, it will affect the simulation and starts changing it based on her imagination and expectations. While there IS risk of her doing something against physical laws without meaning to, it shouldn't be too big.

7 minutes ago, Scotty said:

apparently swapping bodies and looking and more efficient, though I guess that's more in a "makes it easier to remove clothing" sense.

Obviously. Because there seem to be two ways to move their hands (which is often necessary to remove part of clothing): body swap and breaking physical law.

So far, Sarah always did body swapping.

[Scotty 1,061]

21 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

While there IS risk of her doing something against physical laws without meaning to, it shouldn't be too big.

That's why I said Sarah would need to learn to keep her mind from wandering, because she seems to be having difficulty doing so at the moment. I don't think the hair trigger is specific to swapping bodies, though it certainly would vary depending on what Sarah is doing. Also having someone suggest something to Sarah just prior to her entering the simulation would be the same as someone sabotaging Elliot's morphs. Elliot uses his imagination to create the morph, Sarah can use her imagination to alter the simulation, if her imagination is what has the hair trigger, then Sarah could inadvertently do more than just body swap.

34 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Obviously. Because there seem to be two ways to move their hands (which is often necessary to remove part of clothing): body swap and breaking physical law.

So far, Sarah always did body swapping.

Three, Pandora's first part of undressing someone manually implied doing so as if you're taking clothes of a mannequin, then added that swapping bodies would be easier.

But yeah, it's seems difficult for Sarah to do that without switching bodies at the moment.

[hkmaly 490]

52 minutes ago, Scotty said:

4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

While there IS risk of her doing something against physical laws without meaning to, it shouldn't be too big.

That's why I said Sarah would need to learn to keep her mind from wandering, because she seems to be having difficulty doing so at the moment. I don't think the hair trigger is specific to swapping bodies, though it certainly would vary depending on what Sarah is doing. Also having someone suggest something to Sarah just prior to her entering the simulation would be the same as someone sabotaging Elliot's morphs. Elliot uses his imagination to create the morph, Sarah can use her imagination to alter the simulation, if her imagination is what has the hair trigger, then Sarah could inadvertently do more than just body swap.

Elliot's morphs are another example of something which is easier to affect with imagination than Sarah's spell.

I just said that body swap being on hair trigger might actually be BECAUSE she's not used to overcoming the physical laws.

 

[Scotty 1,061]

38 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Elliot's morphs are another example of something which is easier to affect with imagination than Sarah's spell.

I just said that body swap being on hair trigger might actually be BECAUSE she's not used to overcoming the physical laws.

 

Isn't morphing breaking physical laws though?

[The Old Hack 2,448]

3 hours ago, Scotty said:

Isn't morphing breaking physical laws though?

No no. Morphing is when physical laws politely suggest that you shouldn't do it and you regretfully but firmly inform them that this is going to happen and they will just have to accommodate.

[Don Edwards 548]

5 hours ago, Scotty said:

Three, Pandora's first part of undressing someone manually implied doing so as if you're taking clothes of a mannequin, then added that swapping bodies would be easier.

Ever dressed a manikin - or a fourmonth-old who didn't want to get dressed? Dressing (or undressing) another human figure that isn't actively cooperating is NOT easy. Dressing yourself is much easier.

[Cpt. Obvious 73]

13 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

Ever dressed a manikin - or a fourmonth-old who didn't want to get dressed? Dressing (or undressing) another human figure that isn't actively cooperating is NOT easy. Dressing yourself is much easier.

But undressing someone else can be all kinds of fun!

Besides being able to pose people any way she wants should appeal to Sara the Artiste. Now she just has to figure out how to bring back a picture or painting from the sim.
 

[hkmaly 490]

18 hours ago, Scotty said:

19 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Elliot's morphs are another example of something which is easier to affect with imagination than Sarah's spell.

I just said that body swap being on hair trigger might actually be BECAUSE she's not used to overcoming the physical laws.

Isn't morphing breaking physical laws though?

Yes. But unlike Sarah, Elliot doesn't get any "penalties" for that.

Of course, if Sarah would do some morphing in her simulation, it WOULD be breaking physical laws and would result in simulation losing accuracy.

 

[Scotty 1,061]

7 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Yes. But unlike Sarah, Elliot doesn't get any "penalties" for that.

Of course, if Sarah would do some morphing in her simulation, it WOULD be breaking physical laws and would result in simulation losing accuracy.

 

Pandora mentioned that Sarah could learn to have people act with the illusion of autonomy, I would certainly expect that doing so wouldn't allow for Sarah to interrogate someone as her giving that illusion would affect how they act and even if she did make them act accurately enough, what they say would be based more on that programming than what they would actually say.

[hkmaly 490]

26 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Pandora mentioned that Sarah could learn to have people act with the illusion of autonomy, I would certainly expect that doing so wouldn't allow for Sarah to interrogate someone as her giving that illusion would affect how they act and even if she did make them act accurately enough, what they say would be based more on that programming than what they would actually say.

I wouldn't say that interrogating someone would be completely impossible, but it will definitely be hard.

[Scotty 1,061]

18 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

I wouldn't say that interrogating someone would be completely impossible, but it will definitely be hard.

That basically brings us back to the debate of whether Sarah could use a computer in her simulation.

A book or physical document is one thing, the spell could scan each page easily enough, but can it translate all the magnetic 1's and 0's on a disk drive or CD or memory card? I can see Sarah being able to see what was displayed on the screen at the time she entered the simulation, but I can't see her being able to navigate a browser or open digital documents.

How could Sarah's spell accurately simulate a person's memories and knowledge?

[hkmaly 490]

51 minutes ago, Scotty said:

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

I wouldn't say that interrogating someone would be completely impossible, but it will definitely be hard.

That basically brings us back to the debate of whether Sarah could use a computer in her simulation.

Yes. Maybe saying it would be "at least hard" would be more correct.

53 minutes ago, Scotty said:

A book or physical document is one thing, the spell could scan each page easily enough, but can it translate all the magnetic 1's and 0's on a disk drive or CD or memory card? I can see Sarah being able to see what was displayed on the screen at the time she entered the simulation, but I can't see her being able to navigate a browser or open digital documents.

The spell can scan all the magnetic 1's and 0's on a disk drive, CD or memory card just as easily as letters in book or physical document.

Question is how complicated machinery can Sarah make work in her simulation. So far, the most complicated machinery she tried is mirror, and it's not even real mirror ... and of course door and clothes but mirror might be considered more complicated based on the "how hard it is to do it in computer game" angle ...

... on the other hand, computer is definitely much easier than human body, so if she can make person interact, why not computer?

Note that she will definitely NOT be able to navigate browser if the server will be outside her range, which it probably will.

[ijuin 572]

9 hours ago, hkmaly said:

I wouldn't say that interrogating someone would be completely impossible, but it will definitely be hard.

The problem is less one of getting answers out of them and more one of them giving the answers that she wants/expects to hear instead of the truth. If she asks them whodunit, they may name someone whom she already suspects rather than the actual person who dun it.

[hkmaly 490]

13 hours ago, ijuin said:

22 hours ago, hkmaly said:

I wouldn't say that interrogating someone would be completely impossible, but it will definitely be hard.

The problem is less one of getting answers out of them and more one of them giving the answers that she wants/expects to hear instead of the truth. If she asks them whodunit, they may name someone whom she already suspects rather than the actual person who dun it.

Yes. This risk is actually present in normal interrogating as well, only in normal interrogating suspects can only try that if they know what you suspect. Which is why you need to ask correct questions, ideally some which you don't know answer to but can verify. Like, "where is the body".

[Scotty 1,061]

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

14 hours ago, ijuin said:

On 10/26/2016 at 7:32 PM, hkmaly said:

I wouldn't say that interrogating someone would be completely impossible, but it will definitely be hard.

The problem is less one of getting answers out of them and more one of them giving the answers that she wants/expects to hear instead of the truth. If she asks them whodunit, they may name someone whom she already suspects rather than the actual person who dun it.

Yes. This risk is actually present in normal interrogating as well, only in normal interrogating suspects can only try that if they know what you suspect. Which is why you need to ask correct questions, ideally some which you don't know answer to but can verify. Like, "where is the body".

Commentary from the storified "Question mark":

Quote

It was at roughly this point that some people concluded that Sarah could accurately simulate conversations with people while using the spell. She can’t. She could presumably simulate talking to someone, but it’d be her imagination putting word in their mouth. Potentially fun, but not a way of getting reliable information.

So yeah, no chance of Sarah being able to interrogate anyone with her spell....well...not directly, she could find information through documents she looks through that she could then use to interrogate a real person, but that's it.

[hkmaly 490]

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

Commentary from the storified "Question mark":

Quote

It was at roughly this point that some people concluded that Sarah could accurately simulate conversations with people while using the spell. She can’t. She could presumably simulate talking to someone, but it’d be her imagination putting word in their mouth. Potentially fun, but not a way of getting reliable information.

So yeah, no chance of Sarah being able to interrogate anyone with her spell....well...not directly, she could find information through documents she looks through that she could then use to interrogate a real person, but that's it.

Hmmm ... ok, busted. So she can't.

There is still possibility she can get information by slicing their brain and looking at it by microscope, but she's unlikely to have stomach for it and there likely isn't anyone who could tell her what to look for.

[Scotty 1,061]

42 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

There is still possibility she can get information by slicing their brain and looking at it by microscope, but she's unlikely to have stomach for it and there likely isn't anyone who could tell her what to look for.

If she was studying to become a brain surgeon, that might work.

[hkmaly 490]

2 hours ago, Scotty said:

3 hours ago, hkmaly said:

There is still possibility she can get information by slicing their brain and looking at it by microscope, but she's unlikely to have stomach for it and there likely isn't anyone who could tell her what to look for.

If she was studying to become a brain surgeon, that might work.

If EGS brain surgeons are roughly on the same level as ours, they wouldn't help much either. I mean, they will definitely be interested in informations she obtain, but it wouldn't be interrogation: it would be mostly for medicine treatments, analyzing diseases and maybe drugs.

[Scotty 1,061]

8 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

If EGS brain surgeons are roughly on the same level as ours, they wouldn't help much either. I mean, they will definitely be interested in informations she obtain, but it wouldn't be interrogation: it would be mostly for medicine treatments, analyzing diseases and maybe drugs.

This kinda goes back to whether Sarah could learn to do things in the simulation while maintaining accuracy, but if she could take a snapshot, and dissect, magnify and various other forensic stuff, she might be able to find issues faster than standard medical tests. Then again, would her spell be that detailed and include stuff like cancers and infections and such?

[The Old Hack 2,448]

16 minutes ago, Scotty said:

This kinda goes back to whether Sarah could learn to do things in the simulation while maintaining accuracy, but if she could take a snapshot, and dissect, magnify and various other forensic stuff, she might be able to find issues faster than standard medical tests. Then again, would her spell be that detailed and include stuff like cancers and infections and such?

Certainly, if the 'open doors' rule counts. If Sarah gained the necessary knowledge and skill to become a surgeon, she could invite her patient into a surgical theatre complete with instruments, prep the patient and cast the spell. She could then operate on the dream version of her patient with no risk to the real patient at all. It might be rather gruesome but she could even make several attempts of the same operation in order to determine the optimum approach.

[hkmaly 490]

10 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

11 hours ago, Scotty said:

This kinda goes back to whether Sarah could learn to do things in the simulation while maintaining accuracy, but if she could take a snapshot, and dissect, magnify and various other forensic stuff, she might be able to find issues faster than standard medical tests. Then again, would her spell be that detailed and include stuff like cancers and infections and such?

Certainly, if the 'open doors' rule counts. If Sarah gained the necessary knowledge and skill to become a surgeon, she could invite her patient into a surgical theatre complete with instruments, prep the patient and cast the spell. She could then operate on the dream version of her patient with no risk to the real patient at all. It might be rather gruesome but she could even make several attempts of the same operation in order to determine the optimum approach.

Definitely.

I just wanted to say that while she can get interesting information that way, she is unlikely to get the kind of information people are generally interrogated for, like the mentioned example of "where did you hidden the body" or "where did you put the bomb".