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Scotty

Story, Monday March 19, 2018

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1 minute ago, Tom Sewell said:

On the material plane where humans live, yes--but Sirleck spends most of his time in the spirit plane, and Immortals seem to have open season there; look what they did to Magus. When Sirleck is attached to a host, he's probably out of bounds for most Immortals. Some very old Immortals, though, might be able to chew off pieces without hurting the host until there's not enough left of Sirleck to be Sirleck any more.

This is a really wild speculation, but one way of solving the Sirleck problem could be restoring his humanity. Never say never...

If Sirleck could be hurt on the spirit plane he's probably be long gone.  I think Magus could be hurt because he didn't classify as "human".  Remember, Immortal law only triggers if the Immortal *thinks* they're breaking it.  If they don't think they're breaking the Law by tormenting Magus, they aren't.  Bit of a loophole, really,.  Pandora implied it herself speaking to Sarah.

It seemed to me that Ellen was the best known option for humanizing Sirleck, which would probably annoy him if he survived...

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5 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

If Sirleck could be hurt on the spirit plane he's probably be long gone.  I think Magus could be hurt because he didn't classify as "human".  Remember, Immortal law only triggers if the Immortal *thinks* they're breaking it.  If they don't think they're breaking the Law by tormenting Magus, they aren't.  Bit of a loophole, really,.  Pandora implied it herself speaking to Sarah.

It seemed to me that Ellen was the best known option for humanizing Sirleck, which would probably annoy him if he survived...

Interesting that Sirleck remembered  his justification for taking over the old man long ago. Maybe it was Sirleck's hatred for that old man that impelled him to become an Aberration. I really don't think Dan will go that way; most likely our gang will let him go, he'll try something, and then they'll kill him. But Pandora and Magus turned out to be capable of repentance, didn't they?

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2 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

One thing that occurred to me came from asking myself what would happen if Ellen threw Sirleck off her and hit Sirleck with a super-amped up FV5 along the lines of what she did to Vlad/Vladia.  Would it transform him/her/it?  If it did, would that kill Sirleck or find a loophole in what Ed Verres told Grace (you can't cure/humanize a Vampire without killing them).  I take Verres at his word as an expert on magic, but Ellen has done several things she shouldn't be able to do.

When Ellen zapped the Goo it merely stunned it, and I'm pretty sure it was said somewhere that the same thing would happen with anything not humanoid enough. I suspect that Sirleck's form is too inhuman, and the beam would just stun him.

Even if he was transformed, the FV5 beam does not alter base forms, it just temporarily enchants humans (Vladia didn't turn back because she's a Seyunolu), so I would assume he'd still be an aberration, he'd just temporarily look human. (At least I hope he would look human; if it just gave him arms, legs, and the FV5 hair and proportions, he would probably look even more disturbing than he does in his normal state.)

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27 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

Interesting that Sirleck remembered  his justification for taking over the old man long ago. Maybe it was Sirleck's hatred for that old man that impelled him to become an Aberration. I really don't think Dan will go that way; most likely our gang will let him go, he'll try something, and then they'll kill him. But Pandora and Magus turned out to be capable of repentance, didn't they?

It's possible Sirleck has history with the rich old man, but I don't personally see it.  He looks to just have been a convenience for Sirleck.

As a Vampire Sirleck should NOT not be capable of repentance.  Humanized, well, There are people who don't seem capable of it either...

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2 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

As a Vampire Sirleck should NOT not be capable of repentance.  Humanized, well, There are people who don't seem capable of it either...

Are you saying that Sirleck should not "not be capable"? Or do you mean "Sirleck should NOT--repeat, NOT--be capable of repentance." I know that Edward said Aberrations aren't capable of being cured, but Edward was either wrong,  uninformed, or lying about the whales. Remorse might "cure" him by killing himself, but at least he would have killed himself for the right reason.

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47 minutes ago, ChronosCat said:

When Ellen zapped the Goo it merely stunned it, and I'm pretty sure it was said somewhere that the same thing would happen with anything not humanoid enough. I suspect that Sirleck's form is too inhuman, and the beam would just stun him.

Vampires are human enough that Immortal law forbids messing with them...

47 minutes ago, ChronosCat said:

Even if he was transformed, the FV5 beam does not alter base forms, it just temporarily enchants humans (Vladia didn't turn back because she's a Seyunolu), so I would assume he'd still be an aberration, he'd just temporarily look human. (At least I hope he would look human; if it just gave him arms, legs, and the FV5 hair and proportions, he would probably look even more disturbing than he does in his normal state.)

That's an excellent point.  Having been human once, it's possible Sirleck could look human again.  Is his base form still human I wonder...?  I'd tend to think not, but it's possible that being a Vampire is something like an enchantment that is maintained in life energy or something like that.

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2 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

Are you saying that Sirleck should not "not be capable"? Or do you mean "Sirleck should NOT--repeat, NOT--be capable of repentance." I know that Edward said Aberrations aren't capable of being cured, but Edward was either wrong,  uninformed, or lying about the whales. Remorse might "cure" him by killing himself, but at least he would have killed himself for the right reason.

I choose to treat Ed Verres as an authority on magic and magical stuff.  Perhaps better, he is the spokesman for the accrued knowledge of the supernatural community.  There may be holes in his knowledge but what he does tell us ought be true, perhaps with a rare unexpected exception, but is basically true. 

If Verres tells us Vampires can't be cured, then I would accept that as the dominant opinion of earth's magical community at the very least.  It is true in all but the most exceptional cases.  Verres tells us Vampires are literally incapable of remorse so I take that as what to expect from them.  I tend to doubt Sirleck is an exception to that particular bit of Verres-knowledge.  His comments to himself about "letting your heart bleed" tend to support the idea that he is without empathy as well, just as Verres said to Grace.

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1 hour ago, Tom Sewell said:

Interesting that Sirleck remembered  his justification for taking over the old man long ago. Maybe it was Sirleck's hatred for that old man that impelled him to become an Aberration. I really don't think Dan will go that way; most likely our gang will let him go, he'll try something, and then they'll kill him. But Pandora and Magus turned out to be capable of repentance, didn't they?

Pretty certain the old man that we first saw Sirleck possess was not the first one, however we have no way of knowing how many others Sirleck had possessed prior to it, but it's at least 1.

Sirleck implied that his first possession was someone he felt deserved it and he possessed the person for years so that certainly doesn't fit the old man we saw.

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3 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

When Ellen transformed Vlad into Vladia the comic made a big deal of the fact that Vladia's face antennae were gone.  That shouldn't have happened and was chalked up to Ellen putting extra energy into her FV5 beam.

Actually, knowing the diamond resulted in improper awakenings, I think it really is Ellen putting excess energy in the beam, hence part of why she didn't notice buildups until later.

Elliot, by contrast, couldn't help but transform into a cat when Hedge showed up. He had buildups as early as then.

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2 minutes ago, partner555 said:

Actually, knowing the diamond resulted in improper awakenings, I think it really is Ellen putting excess energy in the beam, hence part of why she didn't notice buildups until later.

Elliot, by contrast, couldn't help but transform into a cat when Hedge showed up. He had buildups as early as then.

Except Elliot didn't have "turn into a cat" spell and still doesn't as far as we know.  If he went through a buildup-driven change, he would have girlified.

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4 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

...the best known option for humanizing Sirleck, which would probably annoy him if he survived...

I know that I am often annoyed with being human.

If Ellen has a means to forcibly move beings from the spirit plane to the physical plane, the Human v Immortal relationship will change dramatically.  Especially if she can teach this technique to other humans.

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3 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

Except Elliot didn't have "turn into a cat" spell and still doesn't as far as we know.

He got the "turn into a cat" morph from using Tedd's morph belt withing a few hours of touching the diamond, it wasn't a separate spell, but just another morph option, which was triggered after Hedge hit him with the shackle and calling him "Cat" made Elliot think of cats when the transformation kicked in involuntarily. Much like how Gracelyn was born.

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11 hours ago, Southern Cross said:

Also Verres has no access to the spiritual plane. If the whales exist on the spiritual plane, it's quite understandable he would know nothing about them.

We don't actually know he has no access to the spirit plane.  It's possible he has some sort of spell, wand, or ally that can see into, enter, and/or influence that plane.  Or planes; one option for Immortals being able to hide from each other would be a wide array of similar but slightly out of phase spiritual planes....

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1 hour ago, CritterKeeper said:

We don't actually know he has no access to the spirit plane.  It's possible he has some sort of spell, wand, or ally that can see into, enter, and/or influence that plane.  Or planes; one option for Immortals being able to hide from each other would be a wide array of similar but slightly out of phase spiritual planes....

Hmm... That might also explain how Sirleck is able to spend most of his time on another plane without being constantly attacked by Immortals: his plane is one that few if any Immortals use. Though that does raise the question of how Magus was able to find him so easily - as well as how Magus was able to interact with both Panrora and Helen & Demetrius. If Magus had the ability to shift between different planes (but not the physical one for some reason) I would have expected that ability to come up.

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17 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:
17 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

On the material plane where humans live, yes--but Sirleck spends most of his time in the spirit plane, and Immortals seem to have open season there; look what they did to Magus. When Sirleck is attached to a host, he's probably out of bounds for most Immortals. Some very old Immortals, though, might be able to chew off pieces without hurting the host until there's not enough left of Sirleck to be Sirleck any more.

This is a really wild speculation, but one way of solving the Sirleck problem could be restoring his humanity. Never say never...

If Sirleck could be hurt on the spirit plane he's probably be long gone.  I think Magus could be hurt because he didn't classify as "human".  Remember, Immortal law only triggers if the Immortal *thinks* they're breaking it.  If they don't think they're breaking the Law by tormenting Magus, they aren't.  Bit of a loophole, really,.  Pandora implied it herself speaking to Sarah.

Pandora herself noted that the "Laws protect mortals on the physical plane. With everything else [she] can be very direct" So if an immortal finds a human on the spiritual plane for whatever reason, that human is fair game, just like Magus was. I don't know why Sirleck hasn't been obliterated yet (or any other vampire on the spiritual plane), but if I had to guess, it would relate to the fact that he's only in the spiritual plane when attached to a host, which could make killing him hazardous for the host (if nothing else, there's the fact that vampires burst into flames when they die and Sirleck dying would possibly disconnecting him from his host, forcing him back to the physical plane as a mass of flame and ash while close to, if not wrapped around, the former host.)

Though Immortals being able to kill him while he's on the spiritual plane would explain why he's so jumpy when we first got to see him. Maybe he just relies on the relative rarity of spiritual plane vampires (I don't remember where, but I remember Dan mentioning that most vampires prefer keeping and/or enhancing their own bodies, so vampires like Sirleck are rare) and his low profile to avoid Immortal attention. For an Immortal to kill him, they first have to notice that he's there.

Edited by Drasvin
Had an additional thought

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12 hours ago, Scotty said:

He got the "turn into a cat" morph from using Tedd's morph belt withing a few hours of touching the diamond, it wasn't a separate spell, but just another morph option, which was triggered after Hedge hit him with the shackle and calling him "Cat" made Elliot think of cats when the transformation kicked in involuntarily. Much like how Gracelyn was born.

OK.  I was wrong.  Early magic buildup event.

57 minutes ago, Drasvin said:

Pandora herself noted that the "Laws protect mortals on the physical plane. With everything else [she] can be very direct" So if an immortal finds a human on the spiritual plane for whatever reason, that human is fair game, just like Magus was. I don't know why Sirleck hasn't been obliterated yet (or any other vampire on the spiritual plane), but if I had to guess, it would relate to the fact that he's only in the spiritual plane when attached to a host, which could make killing him hazardous for the host (if nothing else, there's the fact that vampires burst into flames when they die and Sirleck dying would possibly disconnecting him from his host, forcing him back to the physical plane as a mass of flame and ash while close to, if not wrapped around, the former host.)

Though Immortals being able to kill him while he's on the spiritual plane would explain why he's so jumpy when we first got to see him. Maybe he just relies on the relative rarity of spiritual plane vampires (I don't remember where, but I remember Dan mentioning that most vampires prefer keeping and/or enhancing their own bodies, so vampires like Sirleck are rare) and his low profile to avoid Immortal attention. For an Immortal to kill him, they first have to notice that he's there.

Very good point.  I think to myself "is Sirleck good at hiding the way Immortals can hide on the spirit plane?" and I answer "No.  Magus found him effortlessly." 

I'll agree then.  Collateral damage to a human on the material plane would be one of the few things that would stop Immortals from wadding Sirleck up into a ball and disintegrating him.

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23 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:
23 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Vlad(ia) wasn't so "evil" before transforming nor so "good" afterwards. Why should transforming Sirleck into female aberration cure him?

I didn't get the impression it was a question of "evilness".  Ed Verres says that Vampires give up "humanity and compassion" (or something like that) to become what they are.  It's the "giving up humanity" art that I find myself focusing on.

Ok, I'll reword it. While Vlad was just partially human, I would argue that he didn't gave up his humanity completely. The humanity and compassion he was showing after being transformed to Vladia was not caused by Ellen's beam, it was his own. Well, her own.

23 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:
23 hours ago, hkmaly said:

... or Will of Magic's flair of drama. I'm still waiting if there is something about that in her spellbook.

Except Tedd's experience with Magic suggests it doesn't have a flair for the dramatic...

Her experience suggest that Will of Magic doesn't have a flair for dramatic, it just looks that way.

Dan specifically commented that he's leaving the question of existence of some deity deliberately open.

22 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

If Sirleck could be hurt on the spirit plane he's probably be long gone.  I think Magus could be hurt because he didn't classify as "human".  Remember, Immortal law only triggers if the Immortal *thinks* they're breaking it.  If they don't think they're breaking the Law by tormenting Magus, they aren't.  Bit of a loophole, really,.  Pandora implied it herself speaking to Sarah.

Hmmm ... that's possible.

21 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

When Ellen zapped the Goo it merely stunned it, and I'm pretty sure it was said somewhere that the same thing would happen with anything not humanoid enough. I suspect that Sirleck's form is too inhuman, and the beam would just stun him.

Even if he was transformed, the FV5 beam does not alter base forms, it just temporarily enchants humans (Vladia didn't turn back because she's a Seyunolu), so I would assume he'd still be an aberration, he'd just temporarily look human. (At least I hope he would look human; if it just gave him arms, legs, and the FV5 hair and proportions, he would probably look even more disturbing than he does in his normal state.)

Sirleck used to be human and might still be human enough for FV5 to work on her, but it DEFINITELY wouldn't cure him. I also don't see why it should give him arms. I agree that his form would look even more disturbing ... although I'm not sure how exactly.

22 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

I really don't think Dan will go that way; most likely our gang will let him go, he'll try something, and then they'll kill him. But Pandora and Magus turned out to be capable of repentance, didn't they?

I hope Magus will kill him immediately. There were enough points about how aberrations can't be cured, our gang trying anyway would really be just plain stupid from them.

9 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:
21 hours ago, Southern Cross said:

Also Verres has no access to the spiritual plane. If the whales exist on the spiritual plane, it's quite understandable he would know nothing about them.

We don't actually know he has no access to the spirit plane.  It's possible he has some sort of spell, wand, or ally that can see into, enter, and/or influence that plane.  Or planes; one option for Immortals being able to hide from each other would be a wide array of similar but slightly out of phase spiritual planes....

Verres might have some way to visit or see spirit plane ... however I don't think the whales exist on the spiritual plane. Not the one immortals, Magus and Sirleck are on.

And the way immortals hide from each other is unlikely to be related to multiple spiritual planes, as in that case even fresh immortals would be able to do that and in fact get completely lost there.

5 hours ago, Drasvin said:

Pandora herself noted that the "Laws protect mortals on the physical plane. With everything else [she] can be very direct" So if an immortal finds a human on the spiritual plane for whatever reason, that human is fair game, just like Magus was. I don't know why Sirleck hasn't been obliterated yet (or any other vampire on the spiritual plane), but if I had to guess, it would relate to the fact that he's only in the spiritual plane when attached to a host, which could make killing him hazardous for the host (if nothing else, there's the fact that vampires burst into flames when they die and Sirleck dying would possibly disconnecting him from his host, forcing him back to the physical plane as a mass of flame and ash while close to, if not wrapped around, the former host.)

And note that Pandora is ultimate authority on what is she allowed to do under the laws :)

But yes, seems that this is the general way how it's interpreted.

5 hours ago, Drasvin said:

Though Immortals being able to kill him while he's on the spiritual plane would explain why he's so jumpy when we first got to see him. Maybe he just relies on the relative rarity of spiritual plane vampires (I don't remember where, but I remember Dan mentioning that most vampires prefer keeping and/or enhancing their own bodies, so vampires like Sirleck are rare) and his low profile to avoid Immortal attention. For an Immortal to kill him, they first have to notice that he's there.

4 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

Very good point.  I think to myself "is Sirleck good at hiding the way Immortals can hide on the spirit plane?" and I answer "No.  Magus found him effortlessly." 

I'll agree then.  Collateral damage to a human on the material plane would be one of the few things that would stop Immortals from wadding Sirleck up into a ball and disintegrating him.

Most likely, the risk of killing host is only thing protecting him from Immortals AND on top of that not every immortal considers killing host by killing Sirleck violation of the laws.

Pandora herself only got Sirleck to help Magus by threatening him. She might bluffed, but it's also possible she WAS able to kill him. Possibly because the old man was already dead ...

 

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On ‎3‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 1:04 PM, Vorlonagent said:

Very good point.  I think to myself "is Sirleck good at hiding the way Immortals can hide on the spirit plane?" and I answer "No.  Magus found him effortlessly." 

While Sirleck likely isn't able to hide on the spirit plane the same way that Immortals can, he does have the small advantage that physical objects still block line of sight on the spirit plane, as seen with Magus surprising him by walking/floating through the wall. So an Immortal likely wouldn't see Sirleck unless they happened to be in the same room as him. Using fairly generic and low-profile hosts would help him avoid attracting attention from Immortals, whether they are specifically looking for aberrations or are just bored. He would have to worry about Immortals bumping into him as they travel to other places or wander aimlessly, though the potential risk to his host might help him in those cases.

As for Magus finding Sirleck effortlessly, Magus had the advantage of meeting Sirleck before (thanks to Pandora) and knowing who his host is and where that host worked. All he had to do was go there, and if Sirleck wasn't there, then he could just wait for Sirleck to show up.

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Your typical aberration probably leaves a rather detectable trail of bodies stripped of either life or soul (or both).

Sirleck has found a "better" (well, more efficient) way. I'm guessing he can live off a single victim for decades. That's not much of a trail of evidence.

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6 hours ago, Drasvin said:

While Sirleck likely isn't able to hide on the spirit plane the same way that Immortals can, he does have the small advantage that physical objects still block line of sight on the spirit plane, as seen with Magus surprising him by walking/floating through the wall. So an Immortal likely wouldn't see Sirleck unless they happened to be in the same room as him.

Just because physical objects blocks SIRLECKS line of sight doesn't mean it blocks line of sight of fairies - especially nearly omniscient ones as Pandora.

Even Magus, well ... Sirleck is surprised, but Magus is NOT. It's possible he checked beforehand or simply was prepared to look funny if Sirleck wouldn't be there, but it's also possible he CAN see him through that wall.

Aaand, Pandora almost certainly can see Magus through the ceiling here ...

2 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

Your typical aberration probably leaves a rather detectable trail of bodies stripped of either life or soul (or both).

Sirleck has found a "better" (well, more efficient) way. I'm guessing he can live off a single victim for decades. That's not much of a trail of evidence.

Even single year would be probably more than most others, and by possessing the victim he can disrupt the trail ... like, travelling to different state to meet someone from third state, dropping the body there and travel to that third state.

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4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Even single year would be probably more than most others, and by possessing the victim he can disrupt the trail ... like, travelling to different state to meet someone from third state, dropping the body there and travel to that third state.

He could potentially disrupt the trail even more. He could use the method above while leaving a live body, not a dead one. Then have medical authorities pick up the 'amnesiac'. That way he isn't even leaving a trail of corpses behind. Vary the two methods a bit so there is no clear pattern and he will be exceptionally hard to trace over time.

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Thing is, Sirleck wants to live very comfortably. Passing significant wealth to an unrelated "heir" frequently, without establishing a significant long-term relationship with the "heir", would be difficult. And then having that host do the same just a year or two later... too likely to draw attention.

So, while he may occasionally use a host very-short-term (like Ellen and the janitor), he probably prefers long-term hosts. Probably a bare minimum of five years. And I'd go with multiple decades.

Remember, his most recent host had at least one human associate (the butler), who showed no sign of thinking that his boss was aging abnormally fast.

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