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      Welcome!   03/05/2016

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partner555

Story Monday March 26 2018

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3 minutes ago, partner555 said:

Huh, wasn't expecting these feelings out of Magus, but considering his situation, I guess it makes sense.

All too much sense. It does strange things to the human mind to spend your time in complete isolation. Escape from that, no matter how strange the company, fills an essential need. It is difficult to see how he could have reacted otherwise.

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Ashley's face... glorious. The mouthless version more. Like a silent film, but better.

7 minutes ago, WR...S said:

Elliot does not seem to be in the mood for a heart-to-heart.

He might be in the mood for a fist-to-face, though. :demonicduck: Hopefully not.

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Magus is an alternate Elliot, so sympathy even for an enemy isn't out of character. Our Elliot hasn't shed any tears for anyone, at least in canon--but our Elliot hasn't killed anything yet.

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I'm finding Elliot the most interesting part of this segment.  Panel 2-3 is basically "wtf is this?" while taking a defensive stance.  Panel 5, he's checking on Ellen.  Panel 6, he's finished making sure his girlfriend and sister are nominally ok, and that expression is all, "Do I hit you first, or should I wait for you to monologue some more?"  Its reminding me a lot of Ellen's expression while "holding" Sirleck.  

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The attempts by ye olde immortal pair of Pandora and/vs. Colonel Sanders to set Magus up to fight for their amusement may yet pay off. The impositions that Ellen and Elliott would probably have volunteered to endure are a lot more offensive when there is no way to ask politely ahead of time.

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1 hour ago, Nayl said:

I'm finding Elliot the most interesting part of this segment.  Panel 2-3 is basically "wtf is this?" while taking a defensive stance.  Panel 5, he's checking on Ellen.  Panel 6, he's finished making sure his girlfriend and sister are nominally ok, and that expression is all, "Do I hit you first, or should I wait for you to monologue some more?"  Its reminding me a lot of Ellen's expression while "holding" Sirleck.  

2nd panel is obviously Elliot thinking about Ashley's safety in the same manner that he did the week before, 3rd panel Magus starts talking and showing no immediate sign of continuing any fighting so Elliot feels comfortable enough to check on Ellen in panel 5. Panel 6 has Elliot with a look of "I should really punch you right now, you know that, right?"

Of course I think Ashley will ask that there be no more violence here, she may be sympathetic to Magus' situation. Also Magus promised that Elliot and Ellen would be unharmed and so far it's as Magus has said so even if Ashley still doesn't quite trust him, she might be willing to give him the benefit of a doubt to try to talk things over rather than get violent.

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Is it weird that I actually prefer the unfinished Ashley face? Maybe it comes from reading so much manga.

 

2 minutes ago, Scotty said:

2nd panel is obviously Elliot thinking about Ashley's safety in the same manner that he did the week before, 3rd panel Magus starts talking and showing no immediate sign of continuing any fighting so Elliot feels comfortable enough to check on Ellen in panel 5. Panel 6 has Elliot with a look of "I should really punch you right now, you know that, right?"

Of course I think Ashley will ask that there be no more violence here, she may be sympathetic to Magus' situation. Also Magus promised that Elliot and Ellen would be unharmed and so far it's as Magus has said so even if Ashley still doesn't quite trust him, she might be willing to give him the benefit of a doubt to try to talk things over rather than get violent.

This was my interpretation.

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5 minutes ago, Haylo said:

more offensive when there is no way to ask politely ahead of time.

No doubt in my mind that what Magus and Sirleck did to Ashley, Ellen, and Elliot was wrong.

No doubt in my mind that if Magus had asked the Dunkel Duo, they would have agreed to help.

But without informed consent, what Magus did was about as much wrong one person can do to another while still leaving the victim alive, physically undamaged, and unrestrained.

As for mouthless Ashley?

I've said this before, but when Dan draws characters without mouths, it reminds me of the old "Henry" comic.

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Well, the good news is that the exploding crates have not caused any obvious immediate reaction from the artifacts within. Furthermore, the fact that we don't see them lying around suggests they're not important to the plot - well, the ones in those particular crates, anyway.

I do wonder what happened to them, though. Were they blown out the window with most of the debris? Were they destroyed by the burst of flame from Sirleck dying?

Meanwhile, Elliot looks ready for a fight. Will Magus or Ashley talk him down? Will Magus make his escape before Elliot can throw a punch? Or will the fight I've been expecting that leads to multiple artifacts activating and adding further complications to the plot (or at least letting Ashley experience a transformation in canon) be not between Magus and the Security/DGB (or as I was thinking until a few comics ago, Sirleck) but between Magus and Elliot?

...Oh, and incomplete-face Ashley is really cute.

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14 minutes ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

But without informed consent, what Magus did was about as much wrong one person can do to another while still leaving the victim alive, physically undamaged, and unrestrained.

If Magus had a way of communicating with Elliot, this would have been so much easier, but nope, Magus had to use the cards he was dealt so while it was wrong, was he evil for doing it? At least he was trying to do it in a way that would do the least amount of harm.

I mean, once Magus had taken over Elliot's body, he could have just stopped it there, he had a body now, he was able to use his own magic, he could have killed Ellen, taking Sirleck with her. That would be evil.

As it is though, yeah this was a bad experience for Elliot and Ellen, especially because they now know the truth about Ellen's creation. They now have to weigh that with the experiences they've have the past year and whether or not Magus' actions are worth forgiving. Comparing it to how Ellen believed that she was created through Tedd's mistakes and Tedd claiming that if she was a mistake then she was the best mistake he'd ever made because of everything that came after it, most of that would still apply here , right?

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4 minutes ago, Scotty said:

If Magus had a way of communicating with Elliot, this would have been so much easier, but nope, Magus had to use the cards he was dealt so while it was wrong, was he evil for doing it?

Yes. Necessary evils remain evil. Some are potentially more forgivable than others but the greater part of that must needs be resolved by those who are wronged. Speaking only for myself, I am very, very tired of those who display an astounding capacity for forgiving wrongs not done to them personally.

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I, for one, am glad that Magus was very up front about wanting to kill Sirleck and most importantly didn't hold back when the time came to do so.  Having bad feelings about killing a monster AFTER you kill it isn't unexpected, but thinking that Sirleck was a friend before you made your attack would be.  It's sorta a call back to Susan killing the vampire in France, in that it might very well be a life changer, but it didn't slow her down when it came time to do so.

 

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1 minute ago, The Old Hack said:

Yes. Necessary evils remain evil. Some are potentially more forgivable than others but the greater part of that must needs be resolved by those who are wronged. Speaking only for myself, I am very, very tired of those who display an astounding capacity for forgiving wrongs not done to them personally.

I'm speaking of Magus viewing things as a matter of survival, he can't stay where he is because it's literally hell, I still think it matters that he hated what he was doing throughout the entirety of the plan, that he shouldn't have needed to do any of it in the first place if only he was given the means to do so at the beginning.

It's all a matter of perspective though, one side looks at Magus as fighting against all odds to get free from a prison that he had no right to be in. And another looks at those who were stepping stones on the path to that freedom. You could look it like someone wrongly imprisoned in a foreign land with an oppressive government escaping their captivity and having to lie, steal and cheat their way through hostile territory to get back home, one side brands them a hero for overcoming all odds, the side that they escaped from...well maybe some of those that the prisoner interacted with may have ended up being imprisoned or executed for aiding a escaped prisoner, should the prisoner be held accountable for that? Circumstances should account for something as well especially if they're circumstances not created by the person in question.

Magus was in a bad spot, did some bad things to get out of it, but it wasn't his fault he was put in that situation and you can't blame him for wanting to get out of it. What he does now will certainly determine whether any of it is forgivable but at the moment, he probably did luck out with Ellen being able to get control of herself when she did, since Dan's hinted that while Magus might have been able to do the same eventually if Sirleck did manage to possess him, the amount of damage Sirleck could have done before then would likely have made Magus's efforts not worth a damn.

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Just now, Scotty said:

I'm speaking of Magus viewing things as a matter of survival, he can't stay where he is because it's literally hell, I still think it matters that he hated what he was doing throughout the entirety of the plan, that he shouldn't have needed to do any of it in the first place if only he was given the means to do so at the beginning.

Very well. I suppose I should let your opinion rule in all matters of good and evil henceforth. The opinions and the lives of the victims of the perpetrator matter not at all. By conveniently reducing the victims (in this case, Elliot, Ashley and Ellen) to faceless organisms like 'an oppressive government' they are robbed of any relevance and Magus can treat them as he sees fit, hiding behind that catchall excuse of all perpetrators of dubious deeds, 'the end justifies the means.' It is truly wondrous how much forgiveness and lenience that is displayed by those who did not personally suffer loss or injury in such affairs.

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It is hard to imagine oneself in such a predicament as Magus was in, and who knows who he might have left behind that he felt desperate to return to, but, while I certainly wouldn't classify myself as a hero, I would like to think I would have either tried to find another way to contact Elliot and Ellen to ask for help (Pandora taught him to foul up machines and amplify emotions; use the same discipline that he needed to learn magic to figure out a way to foul up Tedd's machines in a pattern that shows intelligence and amplify Tedd's curiosity until she figures out someone intelligent is trying to make contact), or accept one's fate instead of violating Elliot and Ellen and risking Sirleck gaining a mage as a host.  That said, Magus has certainly revealed himself to be a very nuanced person in this arc.  He still qualifies as a villain in my mind.,

Plus, I think that Elliot will make sure Ashley and Ellen are gotten to safety once he as verified that Magus means them no further harm, but that look on Elliot's face promises an eventual beat down is imminent.

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2 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

Very well. I suppose I should let your opinion rule in all matters of good and evil henceforth. The opinions and the lives of the victims of the perpetrator matter not at all. By conveniently reducing the victims (in this case, Elliot, Ashley and Ellen) to faceless organisms like 'an oppressive government' they are robbed of any relevance and Magus can treat them as he sees fit, hiding behind that catchall excuse of all perpetrators of dubious deeds, 'the end justifies the means.' It is truly wondrous how much forgiveness and lenience that is displayed by those who did not personally suffer loss or injury in such affairs.

I really am not implying any of that, I'm just looking at the situation as a whole an not seeing how it could have worked out any better for anyone. Magus hasn't been a constant fixture in the comic so many readers would only look at his actions during the brief moments he is in view. The readers have invested more into the wellbeings of Elliot and Ellen because we've followed their lives much more closely and Ashley is of course part of that. But what if Elliot or Tedd, or Sarah, were put in Magus' situation, we'd be rooting for their success even though they might be doing some questionable things to do so.

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I think whether or not Elliot will throw a punch at Magus is trivial now. Here are some unanswered questions I think have more priority:

  1. Will Dan end Sister III with this comic?
  2. Will Dan end this chapter with this comic and start a Part 25?
  3. What about those re-activated artifacts in the crates that Dan has warned us about in canon twice (once by Magus in this chapter, once before by the Will of Magic in The Fate of Magic)
  4. As Good Guys, shouldn't Ashley, Elliot, and maybe Magus check to see if there's anyone hidden in the facility who needs help now?

1. Will Dan end Sister III with this comic?

Well, if he really wants to, but he really hasn't set up a proper cliffhanger in canon for that. Besides, it isn't Friday in our world yet.

2. Will Dan end Sister III with this comic?

That's more possible. There are a lot of loose threads in the overall story and some of them should be tied up or at least touched on, but its arguable that just about every question this chapter has raised up until now could be answered later without as much work for Dan and without as much delay in the progress of the story.

3. What about those reactivated artifacts?

There are a lot of them, and probably many more in locations Dan hasn't revealed so far. Any of them could become suddenly very important at any time, However, unless Dan has already worked out some reason for one or more of them to do its thing right now in canon, I think they can go off into the same limbo Lord Tedd has been in for most of the series since the end of Grace's Birthday Party.

4. Shouldn't our Good Guys check to see if there's anyone who needs help before running away?

Of course they should! It's in the Universal Code of Good Guy Behavior! But they could also talk about it, with a suitable flashback or two, later. One way or another, I'm for them handling this before the end of Sister III, Dan's vacation, Q&A #8, etc. But I'm not Dan. Really. Honest. Cross my heart or, as my girlfriend has often said, cross the hole where my heart should be.

 

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10 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

All too much sense. It does strange things to the human mind to spend your time in complete isolation. Escape from that, no matter how strange the company, fills an essential need. It is difficult to see how he could have reacted otherwise.

If anything, it speaks well of Magus that he's feeling such a complicated mix of emotions, that he's so inclined to human contact and friendship that he'd feel that way.  It also speaks well that he's aware of his complex, "messed-up" emotions; I guess he's more like Ellen as far as degree of introspection.  Or maybe he's just been trapped alone with his own thoughts and feelings long enough that he's become so.

2 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

Yes. Necessary evils remain evil. Some are potentially more forgivable than others but the greater part of that must needs be resolved by those who are wronged. Speaking only for myself, I am very, very tired of those who display an astounding capacity for forgiving wrongs not done to them personally.

That is the key.  The lesser of two evils is still an evil.  It's rather like Grace and Adrian versus the boar -- killing the boar was evil, but it had to be done.  A good, emotionally healthy person will try to find some other way, and when there is none, they'll di what needs to be done, but feel bad about it.

1 hour ago, mlooney said:

I, for one, am glad that Magus was very up front about wanting to kill Sirleck and most importantly didn't hold back when the time came to do so.  Having bad feelings about killing a monster AFTER you kill it isn't unexpected, but thinking that Sirleck was a friend before you made your attack would be.

It needed to be done.  There have been a very small number of cases where I've had to euthanize a beloved pet dog who had developed a dangerous aggression problem.  It's sad, it breaks everyone's hearts, but if the safety of your children is at stake and nothing you've tried has worked, then sometimes you have to choose the lesser of two evils.  Then, it's your duty to make sure it's done with as little pain/fear/trauma as possible.

1 hour ago, The Old Hack said:

Very well. I suppose I should let your opinion rule in all matters of good and evil henceforth. The opinions and the lives of the victims of the perpetrator matter not at all. By conveniently reducing the victims (in this case, Elliot, Ashley and Ellen) to faceless organisms like 'an oppressive government' they are robbed of any relevance and Magus can treat them as he sees fit, hiding behind that catchall excuse of all perpetrators of dubious deeds, 'the end justifies the means.' It is truly wondrous how much forgiveness and lenience that is displayed by those who did not personally suffer loss or injury in such affairs.

Hey now, I don't think Scotty was implying any such thing, and it's a bit of a Straw Man for you to paint things that way.

1 hour ago, Tuscahoma said:

It is hard to imagine oneself in such a predicament as Magus was in, and who knows who he might have left behind that he felt desperate to return to, but, while I certainly wouldn't classify myself as a hero, I would like to think I would have either tried to find another way to contact Elliot and Ellen to ask for help (Pandora taught him to foul up machines and amplify emotions; use the same discipline that he needed to learn magic to figure out a way to foul up Tedd's machines in a pattern that shows intelligence and amplify Tedd's curiosity until she figures out someone intelligent is trying to make contact), or accept one's fate instead of violating Elliot and Ellen and risking Sirleck gaining a mage as a host.

My assumption would be that he had tried everything he could think of, had tried more and more desperately, and had simply failed.  Sometime, like with the boar, you wind up with there not being a better way.

1 hour ago, Tuscahoma said:

Plus, I think that Elliot will make sure Ashley and Ellen are gotten to safety once he as verified that Magus means them no further harm, but that look on Elliot's face promises an eventual beat down is imminent.

Probably depends on how much Elliott was aware of while possessed, and how soon Ashley and/or Ellen intervene.

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49 minutes ago, Scotty said:

I really am not implying any of that, I'm just looking at the situation as a whole an not seeing how it could have worked out any better for anyone.

Then you are working from the wrong presumption. It is not a matter of what happened after Magus' misdeeds. He does not get to gain credit from unintended consequences. If I light someone's home on fire and they subsequently obtain insurance money that more than recompensates them for their losses, I am still an arsonist. Magus is responsible for Ellen's existence in the worst possible way -- she was intended solely as a fire-and-forget weapon that was supposed to transform Elliot once and could henceforth be ignored. Moreover, if his plan had failed and Ellen had gone out of control and managed to kill herself, that would have been on Magus, too. The trauma from her creation that she has yet to recover fully from is on him, too. Elliot's public discommodation and forced gender change, with all the possible negative social consequences, these are on Magus, too. And what if there had been no convenient home for Ellen, no handy financial support for her family? No. Magus does not get to take credit for positive consequences that he had no hand in. Nor does he get to evade responsibility for his actions merely because the risks and dangers he selfishly exposed others to did not come true. If I race through a school district at 100 mph, I am still guilty of reckless endangerment of school children even if no-one gets hurt.

Going by your logic, the school shooter in Parkland may have killed seventeen people but it should be to his credit that many of the students he did not manage to kill went on to achieve national fame and start a movement that could potentially change gun law. I do not buy that one, either.

The greatest moment Magus had was in my opinion when he refused to commit murder on Pandora's say so. If you wish to look for his redeeming traits, look there. I am not giving him an easy out simply because his victims as a whole were not too badly hurt.

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8 minutes ago, CritterKeeper said:

Hey now, I don't think Scotty was implying any such thing, and it's a bit of a Straw Man for you to paint things that way.

But this is exactly what he was saying. Magus should get a pass for mentally manipulating people, endangering innocents (Sirleck might have escaped if not for Ellen, just for one thing), inflicting emotional trauma (Ellen's creation) and for calling aberrants into Moperville as a distraction (that they would probably be killed is cold comfort to those they did manage to kill.) All of that is fine because Magus is actually really a nice person!

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I would also like to add that Elliot's involvment as well as Ellen's creation was through the guidance of Pandora, it was her that chose this as the method for Magus to free himself rather than ask for consent.

When Pandora was originally introduced we all thought she was evil, then later we felt she was just insane and unstable, but still felt that she deserved whatever punishment that would eventually come to her, but then in this arc we're shown a much more tragic story about her and when her punishment finally did come, it was a very sad moment and we're left with the hope that she'll be back a better person.

I feel this is just how Dan rolls with his storytelling, at least, that's how I've been trying to interpret it.

 

16 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

Going by your logic, the school shooter in Parkland may have killed seventeen people but it should be to his credit that many of the students he did not manage to kill went on to achieve national fame and start a movement that could potentially change gun law. I do not buy that one, either.

I really don't see how that can be compared to Magus' situation. Magus did not walk into this with the intention of doing harm to others, and the only one that he intended on killing was the one that had killed before and had every intention of continuing to do so. I won't even compare him to the student going up against government opposition, the situations are completely different. The only thing it's really comparable is Magus was conditioned by his experience to act the way he did, just like the students of Parkland were conditioned by their experience to act they way they are that's about as close as we can to comparing it, the students have far more of an advantage and more tools to work with than Magus did.

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