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      Welcome!   03/05/2016

      Welcome, everyone, to the new 910CMX Community Forums. I'm still working on getting them running, so things may change.  If you're a 910 Comic creator and need your forum recreated, let me know and I'll get on it right away.  I'll do my best to make this new place as fun as the last one!
partner555

Story Monday March 26 2018

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22 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

I think whether or not Elliot will throw a punch at Magus is trivial now. Here are some unanswered questions I think have more priority:

  1. Will Dan end Sister III with this comic?
  2. Will Dan end this chapter with this comic and start a Part 25?
  3. What about those re-activated artifacts in the crates that Dan has warned us about in canon twice (once by Magus in this chapter, once before by the Will of Magic in The Fate of Magic)
  4. As Good Guys, shouldn't Ashley, Elliot, and maybe Magus check to see if there's anyone hidden in the facility who needs help now?

1. I'd be shocked if he did. This does not feel like a story-ending comic, particularly with Elliot there in the last panel looking like he's just about to vent his anger one way or another. Elliot and Magus are currently in a position of conflict, and that conflict needs to be resolved (or interrupted by bigger events) before the story can end. Furthermore, it seems to me that before the story ends we ought to see Magus leaving the facility (either under his own power or being taken captive) and see Ashley and this world's Dunkles get to a point where we can assume they'll get home safely.

2. Unless the next chapter is going to be the Epilogue, unlikely. In the commentary at the end of the previous chapter he said this one would likely be the final non-epilogue chapter of Sister 3.

3. Another reason I don't expect the story to end just yet.

4. If it occurs to them there might be anyone there. But before they can do that I think Ashley and Elliot need to decide whether Magus is friend or foe, and if foe deal with him somehow.

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Honestly, whether you think of Magus as a good guy or bad guy or somewhere in between, I think a good measuring stick would be this, given what we KNOW of Magus' situation, no more no less, could you imagine Elliot doing what Magus did?  I can't.  We can postulate other circumstances, such as someone in dire need of Magus in his universe (Terra having to face some potentially lethal situation by herself in the coming future), but Magus didn't offer something like that as a justification.  We know he faced torture from some immortals, but the French Immortals tried to keep him from going ahead with his plan, telling him he didn't belong or his time was already.  I can see Elliot, even though the implication might be that the French Immortals are telling him he is a ghost and must move on (dying in effect), asking them for advice and help instead of running from them.                

They might have been too obsessed with destroying aberrations to offer any help, but it would have been a risk Elliot would have taken.

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20 minutes ago, Scotty said:

I would also like to add that Elliot's involvment as well as Ellen's creation was through the guidance of Pandora, it was her that chose this as the method for Magus to free himself rather than ask for consent.

When Pandora was originally introduced we all thought she was evil, then later we felt she was just insane and unstable, but still felt that she deserved whatever punishment that would eventually come to her, but then in this arc we're shown a much more tragic story about her and when her punishment finally did come, it was a very sad moment and we're left with the hope that she'll be back a better person.

All that is true, but this merely means that Pandora and Magus share responsibility. And Pandora still has a lot to answer for. "Tell them my tale -- ill deeds along with the good -- and let them judge accordingly." Pandora is fortunate in that she is still alive to learn from her past mistakes as well as the mistakes of her past self. Magus, too, is still in a position to atone.

What I completely object to and in fact refuse to accept is that responsibility is in any way mitigated by either the perpetrator's situation or by net positive outcomes. Magus could have refused to do what Pandora asked of him, and in fact did so when he disobeyed her orders to turn Mr. Verres into a murderer. That counts to his credit -- he refused in the face not only of personal loss but also imminent personal danger, and I admire him for that. But as for the rest of his actions, he remains responsible for them and no matter how you turn it about he endangered a lot of people with his actions.

It is, of course, possible to mitigate judgment based on these circumstances. But that is a separate matter.

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45 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

3. What about those reactivated artifacts?

There are a lot of them, and probably many more in locations Dan hasn't revealed so far. Any of them could become suddenly very important at any time, However, unless Dan has already worked out some reason for one or more of them to do its thing right now in canon, I think they can go off into the same limbo Lord Tedd has been in for most of the series since the end of Grace's Birthday Party.

Captain, the Chekhov's reading on the plot value of these artifacts are going off the scale.  The plot canna take any more, Captain, she's gonna blow!

I dunno, I think at one might reveal itself before we're done with the warehouse scene.  Though perhaps only reveal itself to the readers... like the Emperor's ring at the end of the campy Flash Gordon movie that was picked up by somebody... wait, tangent, was the Dr. Who scene where the Master's ring was picked up by a women a callback to that Flash Gordon scene?  Never mind, my point was we might see an active artifact that the characters don't notice, but this would be the very least level of plot manifestation considering how they were hinted at.

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2 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

It is, of course, possible to mitigate judgment based on these circumstances. But that is a separate matter.

  That's what I was trying to get at, Magus' actions on their own are morally wrong because someone much less morally inclined could do that for personal gain without empathy for those they affected, but Magus did have empathy for the people he affected, he even stated the need to atone for the things he was doing, which I would hope included some form of apology (much more than just an "I'm sorry" of course) to Elliot and Ellen, whether or not they accept it and forgive him are entirely up to them, they may not do so and just tell him to get lost, but that's their prerogative.

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1 hour ago, Scotty said:

  That's what I was trying to get at, Magus' actions on their own are morally wrong because someone much less morally inclined could do that for personal gain without empathy for those they affected, but Magus did have empathy for the people he affected, he even stated the need to atone for the things he was doing, which I would hope included some form of apology (much more than just an "I'm sorry" of course) to Elliot and Ellen, whether or not they accept it and forgive him are entirely up to them, they may not do so and just tell him to get lost, but that's their prerogative.

Ah. In that case I misunderstood you and I apologise for that. I am afraid this is a sensitive matter for me -- there are people who would feel that Magus was morally justified in his actions and I simply cannot accept that. I will certainly agree that in case those wronged forgive him he is at least absolved from what wrongs he did to them. The larger picture is still rather shaky and I am unwilling to declare judgment there myself; I merely feel that simply dismissing his deeds is a serious mistake.

Once again I apologise for my harsh earlier words. I have apparently been under more stress than I realised and I allowed myself to take that out on you, which was a very serious mistake. I am sorry.

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4 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

4. If it occurs to them there might be anyone there. But before they can do that I think Ashley and Elliot need to decide whether Magus is friend or foe, and if foe deal with him somehow.

Ashley has already wondered why there doesn't seem to be anyone else there. That's what no cars in the parking lot seem to imply. But she also noticed that all the lights were on.

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The "Ellens" in the chapter title is not yet justified.

The Diamond is gone, but there are fragments of unknown effect and a Chekhov's Arsenal of artifacts that we don't even know what they look like, so there are still options for said justification.

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15 hours ago, The Old Hack said:
15 hours ago, partner555 said:

Huh, wasn't expecting these feelings out of Magus, but considering his situation, I guess it makes sense.

All too much sense. It does strange things to the human mind to spend your time in complete isolation. Escape from that, no matter how strange the company, fills an essential need. It is difficult to see how he could have reacted otherwise.

I suspect it would be related to Stockholm syndrome ...

5 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:
7 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

Yes. Necessary evils remain evil. Some are potentially more forgivable than others but the greater part of that must needs be resolved by those who are wronged. Speaking only for myself, I am very, very tired of those who display an astounding capacity for forgiving wrongs not done to them personally.

That is the key.  The lesser of two evils is still an evil.  It's rather like Grace and Adrian versus the boar -- killing the boar was evil, but it had to be done.  A good, emotionally healthy person will try to find some other way, and when there is none, they'll di what needs to be done, but feel bad about it.

Yes. Very good example.

5 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:
6 hours ago, Tuscahoma said:

It is hard to imagine oneself in such a predicament as Magus was in, and who knows who he might have left behind that he felt desperate to return to, but, while I certainly wouldn't classify myself as a hero, I would like to think I would have either tried to find another way to contact Elliot and Ellen to ask for help (Pandora taught him to foul up machines and amplify emotions; use the same discipline that he needed to learn magic to figure out a way to foul up Tedd's machines in a pattern that shows intelligence and amplify Tedd's curiosity until she figures out someone intelligent is trying to make contact), or accept one's fate instead of violating Elliot and Ellen and risking Sirleck gaining a mage as a host.

My assumption would be that he had tried everything he could think of, had tried more and more desperately, and had simply failed.  Sometime, like with the boar, you wind up with there not being a better way.

Note that the whole dewitchery diamond plan was Pandora's, and contained LOT of informations about our world. Magus's options to learn anything else were limited, which includes stuff like how machines work ; just using his "foul up machines" ability might easily get dangerous, remember that even simple lighbulb can explode - and hurt someone unlucky.

It took him months do get desperate enough to actually go with plan like this.

4 hours ago, Tuscahoma said:

We know he faced torture from some immortals, but the French Immortals tried to keep him from going ahead with his plan, telling him he didn't belong or his time was already.  I can see Elliot, even though the implication might be that the French Immortals are telling him he is a ghost and must move on (dying in effect), asking them for advice and help instead of running from them.

What makes you think Magus didn't tried? Voltaire was apparently torturing him, but Helena and Demetrius could simply try to KILL him. And it probably wouldn't take them long to find out how.

As far as we know, Magus only had three options: Pandora's plan, running and hiding forever or to die. Even Elliot might choose Pandora's plan in such case, especially if Pandora convinced him enough. Remember he's a misguided henchman for a charismatic super villain waiting to happen.

4 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

I'd be shocked if he did. This does not feel like a story-ending comic, particularly with Elliot there in the last panel looking like he's just about to vent his anger one way or another. Elliot and Magus are currently in a position of conflict, and that conflict needs to be resolved (or interrupted by bigger events) before the story can end. Furthermore, it seems to me that before the story ends we ought to see Magus leaving the facility (either under his own power or being taken captive) and see Ashley and this world's Dunkles get to a point where we can assume they'll get home safely.

8 hours ago, Scotty said:

Panel 6 has Elliot with a look of "I should really punch you right now, you know that, right?"

Despite Elliot's face, I don't think he's the type who would attack Magus now. He is ready to defend if Magus would do something, yes, but attacking him while monologuing? I think there could easily be plenty of time for either Magus or Ashley saying something to calm Elliot down.

Of course, another question is if Elliot would let Magus go or attempt to capture him and turn to DGB.

8 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

Or will the fight I've been expecting that leads to multiple artifacts activating and adding further complications to the plot (or at least letting Ashley experience a transformation in canon) be not between Magus and the Security/DGB (or as I was thinking until a few comics ago, Sirleck) but between Magus and Elliot?

... what about Abraham?

4 hours ago, Tuscahoma said:
5 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

3. What about those reactivated artifacts?

There are a lot of them, and probably many more in locations Dan hasn't revealed so far. Any of them could become suddenly very important at any time, However, unless Dan has already worked out some reason for one or more of them to do its thing right now in canon, I think they can go off into the same limbo Lord Tedd has been in for most of the series since the end of Grace's Birthday Party.

Captain, the Chekhov's reading on the plot value of these artifacts are going off the scale.  The plot canna take any more, Captain, she's gonna blow!

I dunno, I think at one might reveal itself before we're done with the warehouse scene.  Though perhaps only reveal itself to the readers...

I also expect something will happen with those artefacts in this scene. Also, probably involving Ashley. But it make take a while ... like, Magus seem in mood to talk for several pages ...

6 minutes ago, Don Edwards said:

The "Ellens" in the chapter title is not yet justified.

The Diamond is gone, but there are fragments of unknown effect and a Chekhov's Arsenal of artifacts that we don't even know what they look like, so there are still options for said justification.

Ellen is already unconscious ... and the fragments are unlikely to have so strong effect, even if they are not completely inner. However, what about the core of the diamond?

Or, yes, the other artifacts.

 

 

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29 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

... what about Abraham?

Well, he's a possibility too - but only if DGB stored his statue form in the warehouse, which given his track record seems like a poor choice to make. I think it's more likely he'll wake up in a secret prison somewhere, attempt to break free, and if successful track down Magus in a later story.

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37 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Ellen is already unconscious ... and the fragments are unlikely to have so strong effect, even if they are not completely inner. However, what about the core of the diamond?

I think the "Ellens" part was when Ellen held Sirleck, when we saw the visual representation it was Ellen and an Ellen-looking Sirleck, so Dan could get by on a technicality there.

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5 hours ago, Tuscahoma said:

We know he faced torture from some immortals, but the French Immortals tried to keep him from going ahead with his plan, telling him he didn't belong or his time was already.  I can see Elliot, even though the implication might be that the French Immortals are telling him he is a ghost and must move on (dying in effect), asking them for advice and help instead of running from them.

                They might have been too obsessed with destroying aberrations to offer any help, but it would have been a risk Elliot would have taken.

I got the impression that they never gave him the chance to ask for help or to explain his situation.  They were too busy attacking him.  Whether they thought he was a ghost or a different form of aberration or whatever, they do seem to have a record of putting killing aberrations above all other concerns, and not caring about the trauma they put Nanase and Susan through.

10 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Note that the whole dewitchery diamond plan was Pandora's, and contained LOT of informations about our world. Magus's options to learn anything else were limited, which includes stuff like how machines work ; just using his "foul up machines" ability might easily get dangerous, remember that even simple lighbulb can explode - and hurt someone unlucky.

That's a good point!  Magus doesn't have any idea how a car works, and doesn't really expect anyone else to either.  Where he comes from, the workings of technology may be as mysterious as we would find the workings of magic.  Part of that would be not knowing what is possible, in regards to things we take for granted and don't even think about.  After being trapped here for three years, but only able to observe in certain ways and not able to do any interacting, not being able to fiddle with things to figure out how they work, he hasn't learned as much as one might expect a normal immigrant from another reality to have learned.

10 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

It took him months [to] get desperate enough to actually go with plan like this.

I would expect he spent a great deal of that time trying to figure out a way to communicate, or to get an Immortal to listen to him and help him, or to find a way to hide from them, or any of the other things Elliot or one of us might do in that situation.

10 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

What makes you think Magus didn't tr[y]?  Voltaire was apparently torturing him, but Helena and Demetrius could simply try to KILL him.  And it probably wouldn't take them long to find out how.

Yup.  They may be a bit different post-reset, but their previous selves, at or near two hundred, seem to have been of the "shoot first and ask questions never" type.

10 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

As far as we know, Magus only had three options: Pandora's plan, running and hiding forever, or to die. Even Elliot might choose Pandora's plan in such case, especially if Pandora convinced him enough. Remember he's a misguided henchman for a charismatic super villain waiting to happen.

I do love that comic.  "Dibs."  And I could see Elliot trying to keep mental track of all the wrong things he'd had to do and how he would try to make things right for each of them.  Or, I could see Elliot going all noble and giving up and letting an Immortal kill him -- assuming that was possible.  We don't know that the form Magus was in could die!  It might be that his only options were to find a way out, or to suffer horribly and repeatedly over and over for the rest of eternity, hiding from Immortals as best he could until they'd find him and torture him again.  And again, and again.  (Heck, I can even see the look on Elliot's face as he made his decision to let himself die, and then the look as he realized that just wasn't going to happen....I'm in serious danger of committing fanfic again, aren't I?  If only I could draw....)

10 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Despite Elliot's face, I don't think he's the type who would attack Magus now. He is ready to defend if Magus would do something, yes, but attacking him while monologuing? I think there could easily be plenty of time for either Magus or Ashley saying something to calm Elliot down.

Magus could try his Calm spell again, but I suspect Elliot's magic resistance would be far too strong for that, and trying to use it on him would end up having the opposite effect of pissing him off.

10 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Of course, another question is if Elliot would let Magus go or attempt to capture him and turn to DGB.

That will depend on how things go between them in the next few comics.  I suspect some of our questions are things Elliot and Ashley (and others later) will be asking Magus.  "Why didn't you...."   "Couldn't you have...."  Magus had a lot of time unable to do anything but think about that sort of thing, so I suspect he's already got ready answers for most.  And if they do come up with something he didn't think of, well, I can picture the pole-axed look on his face pretty well, there, too.

10 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

... what about Abraham?

Abraham isn't going to attack willy-nilly, he's learned his lesson from Ellen.  I do think he might be showing up again sooner or later, though.  Perhaps tonight, perhaps not until we see him as a DGB agent years from now.

10 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

However, what about the core of the diamond?

This is one I'm highly suspicious about -- why mention the core is wood unless we're going to see what that core is and what it does?  My top bet would be on Ashley picking it up and ending up transformed, possibly into Ellen's form as the Ellen/Ellen wrestling match may not be enough to warrant the chapter title.  Is it a wand?  Is it a figurine, or a ring or bracelet?  Is it just a hunk of wood her hand will hit accidentally?  Will  she pick it up to defend herself from a threat, to herself or another, real or perceived?

 

TOH, your comment about how Magus is responsible for bringing Ellen into existence only to serve a purpose and then to be ignored doesn't quite ring true to me for an alternate Elliot, for one big reason.  There have been a small but significant number of cases where a family has a child who is sick, and in need of something along the lines of a bone marrow transplant, but no existing relatives are a good enough match.  Some of these families have decided to have another child, when they otherwise hadn't been planning on doing so, in the hopes that the younger sibling will be a way to save the older sibling's life.  These families don't do this callously or cruelly, or without careful thought and soul-searching.  They look at and discuss all the implications, go over whether it's morally right, whether the child will resent their being born "only" to save their sibling, whether they would ask that an already-existing child go through testing and donation if one existed, whether there is any other way.  But in the end, the child they have to save a life is their child, and they love them, perhaps all the more because they've given life to their sibling.  Such siblings can share a wonderful close bond, knowing the gift of life that is between them.

Magus being a more introspective version of Elliot, I suspect he would have gone through similar soul-searching, about creating what would in a way be his own new sister.  Pandora would have been able to tell him that DGB would see that Ellen was cared for, one way or another, and that Elliot's family were in their own weird way sort of the ideal family to take her in.  It may not have been "on-screen" so to speak, but I can't picture a version of Elliot not voicing those objections when they went over the plan in the first place.

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5 minutes ago, CritterKeeper said:

It might be that his only options were to find a way out, or to suffer horribly and repeatedly over and over for the rest of eternity, hiding from Immortals as best he could until they'd find him and torture him again.  And again, and again.

It's quite possible that Magus couldn't be killed at all in the form he found himself on, he didn't require food or sleep after all. I don't see him just accepting his fate working out well in the long run because he could very well have been driven insane by the constant torment from either being alone or harassed by Immortals and that could have made things a lot worse had he decided to make his return to the physical realm after 10-15 years of it.

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1 hour ago, CritterKeeper said:

That's a good point!  Magus doesn't have any idea how a car works, and doesn't really expect anyone else to either.  Where he comes from, the workings of technology may be as mysterious as we would find the workings of magic.

Technology being principally easy to understand is how it differs from magic ; I would say that where he comes from they DONT have much technology.

1 hour ago, CritterKeeper said:
Quote

Despite Elliot's face, I don't think he's the type who would attack Magus now. He is ready to defend if Magus would do something, yes, but attacking him while monologuing? I think there could easily be plenty of time for either Magus or Ashley saying something to calm Elliot down.

Magus could try his Calm spell again, but I suspect Elliot's magic resistance would be far too strong for that, and trying to use it on him would end up having the opposite effect of pissing him off.

I think Elliot's resistance is NOT so big ... however, calming him with spell would still likely backfire by making him more pissed after the enchantment would end.

1 hour ago, CritterKeeper said:

Magus being a more introspective version of Elliot, I suspect he would have gone through similar soul-searching, about creating what would in a way be his own new sister.

Yes.

1 hour ago, CritterKeeper said:

Pandora would have been able to tell him that DGB would see that Ellen was cared for, one way or another, and that Elliot's family were in their own weird way sort of the ideal family to take her in.  It may not have been "on-screen" so to speak, but I can't picture a version of Elliot not voicing those objections when they went over the plan in the first place.

... yes. And surprisingly, she didn't lied.

I mean, her convincingly explaining how Ellen would be cared for and generally ok would match what I was implying with the "misguided henchman", except given how it turns out she didn't even needed to lie about it. Ellen REALLY ended up in extremely good position given the circumstances, and Pandora was almost clairvoyant and could see most of it. I can even imagine her SHOWING Magus something - like, Mrs. Dunkel saying something about how would she like another child, Edward Verres taking care of someone else (actually, how he took care of Grace could be enough) or even point out how Elliot would be totally ideal partner for Nanase if only he was she.

1 hour ago, Scotty said:
1 hour ago, CritterKeeper said:

It might be that his only options were to find a way out, or to suffer horribly and repeatedly over and over for the rest of eternity, hiding from Immortals as best he could until they'd find him and torture him again.  And again, and again.

It's quite possible that Magus couldn't be killed at all in the form he found himself on, he didn't require food or sleep after all. I don't see him just accepting his fate working out well in the long run because he could very well have been driven insane by the constant torment from either being alone or harassed by Immortals and that could have made things a lot worse had he decided to make his return to the physical realm after 10-15 years of it.

... that IS a good point. Aaand a point Pandora could easily make.

Magus: "Your plan is crazy!"

Pandora: "Ok, I'll wait till you will be crazy enough to try anyway."

Magus: " ... wait."

Note that Elliot is afraid of "loosing his cool", aka. give in to the anger, and Magus could have similar issues. He could be afraid of what he will do when more torture erodes his self-control.

 

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Magus does not come from a world with medieval technology. From the very first, he's been pictured wearing modern clothes, basically a pants-shirt-tie school uniform with a short cape. :He's about as "medieval" as Harry Potter. And warning sirens only go back to around 1900. As for knowing how a car works, how many of you could build a car from scratch? His world may not have satellites, Viagra, and Twitter yet, but it probably has railroads, telegraphs, newspapers, and at least some flush toilets.

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1 minute ago, Tom Sewell said:

Magus does not come from a world with medieval technology. From the very first, he's been pictured wearing modern clothes, basically a pants-shirt-tie school uniform with a short cape. :He's about as "medieval" as Harry Potter. And warning sirens only go back to around 1900. As for knowing how a car works, how many of you could build a car from scratch? His world may not have satellites, Viagra, and Twitter yet, but it probably has railroads, telegraphs, newspapers, and at least some flush toilets.

His world may have cars, but they might run on magic instead of fossil fuels.

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4 minutes ago, Scotty said:

His world may have cars, but they might run on magic instead of fossil fuels.

If Magus world has enough magic to power a comparable number of cars as our world has now, everything would run on magic and dragons would have to be at least as intelligent and co-operative as humans to survive as anything other than a protected species. Ever wonder why there are no lions in Europe or the Middle East? We killed them all before we even got to the Middle Ages.

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5 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

If Magus world has enough magic to power a comparable number of cars as our world has now, everything would run on magic and dragons would have to be at least as intelligent and co-operative as humans to survive as anything other than a protected species. Ever wonder why there are no lions in Europe or the Middle East? We killed them all before we even got to the Middle Ages.

Dragons might be as intelligent or more than humans, but they don't have to co-operated with them, or maybe dragons were used as weapons.

There's the game "Star Ocean: Till the End of Time" where there's a planet that has various civilizations on it varying from late Medieval relying on steel weapons and armor and such, to a more advanced one that was hinted at having robot soldiers, One civilization was describe as being early 20th century but a lot of their comforts like heating, lights, etc were provided by a form of magic called "runology", this civilization and the late medieval one were at war over resources and the only reason why the more advance civ wasn't winning was because the medieval one had managed to tame dragons and created a mounted dragon division that was nearly unstoppable. To counter, the runologists were developing what basically amounted to a plasma cannon that converted runology magic into electricity.  It was pretty convoluted but that's what the world was and Magus' world could be just as convoluted as well.

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9 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

.... Magus is responsible for Ellen's existence in the worst possible way -- she was intended solely as a fire-and-forget weapon that was supposed to transform Elliot once and could henceforth be ignored...

Mmmm, I think you're forgetting, or discounting at least, Pandora's contribution to this mess. Magus, betrayed, isolated and hopeless, was under the influence of a master manipulator when he caused Ellen's creation. Doesn't entirely excuse him, of course, but does give me a bit of sympathy for him.

9 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

The greatest moment Magus had was in my opinion when he refused to commit murder on Pandora's say so. If you wish to look for his redeeming traits, look there.

OK, so you're not forgetting. :P 

 

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1 minute ago, Scotty said:

Dragons might be as intelligent or more than humans, but they don't have to co-operated with them, or maybe dragons were used as weapons.

What I meant was cooperating with other dragons.  Magus said "tornado sirens" instead of "air raid sirens" so the dragons of his world don't form air forces, at least yet. 

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15 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

Very well. I suppose I should let your opinion rule in all matters of good and evil henceforth. The opinions and the lives of the victims of the perpetrator matter not at all. By conveniently reducing the victims (in this case, Elliot, Ashley and Ellen) to faceless organisms like 'an oppressive government' they are robbed of any relevance and Magus can treat them as he sees fit, hiding behind that catchall excuse of all perpetrators of dubious deeds, 'the end justifies the means.' It is truly wondrous how much forgiveness and lenience that is displayed by those who did not personally suffer loss or injury in such affairs.

I think 'an oppressive government' was intended to be the analogue for the unfortunate circumstance of being stuck on a non-physical plane without a body. The victims, in the analogy, are represented by the people who were lied to, stolen from, and cheated on the escapee's path to freedom.

In any case, Magus unquestionably did several things that were wrong. His circumstances only speak to his motivations for why he did them, which at best might garner some sympathy and a reduction in punishment. Far more important, however, is that he recognizes that his deeds were wrong and intends to atone for them, and (provided nothing interrupts things) he is now in a position to directly apologize to and ask forgiveness from those most severely wronged. Pandora might arguably be the actually most wronged party, but I think the blame for that one lies more (but not entirely) with Sirleck for augmenting the hit squad beyond what Adrian could handle and Voltaire for being the only one with any intent of bringing Pandora into the mess at all.

I do find Magus sympathetic, but a large part of that is based on the expectation that he will promptly begin his efforts to atone.

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4 hours ago, Amiable Dorsai said:

Magus, betrayed, isolated and hopeless, was under the influence of a master manipulator when he caused Ellen's creation. Doesn't entirely excuse him, of course, but does give me a bit of sympathy for him.

Yes, and please note, what I am arguing is that he still had a share of the responsibility. Not that he is entirely reprehensible. It is the notion of giving him a free pass I strenuously object to. It is the task of a judge to include extenuating circumstances, after all.

11 minutes ago, Douglas said:

Far more important, however, is that he recognizes that his deeds were wrong and intends to atone for them, and (provided nothing interrupts things) he is now in a position to directly apologize to and ask forgiveness from those most severely wronged. Pandora might arguably be the actually most wronged party, but I think the blame for that one lies more (but not entirely) with Sirleck for augmenting the hit squad beyond what Adrian could handle.

This is critically important and is part of why I object to merely giving someone a pass. Let us say that Magus, now free, simply waltzed on his merry way and said, "That was fun. Anyone for pizza?" He would have learned nothing save the lesson that it is OK to manipulate and endanger people when you kinda think you have to. And the circumstances for 'have to' will erode over time. First you commit the crimes out of need. Then you commit more crimes to cover up the first crimes. Then you commit still more crimes, always driven by a 'need' which turned false somewhere on the road unnoticed by you...

And there is always the need of the victims. The need to be recognised as people, their need for justice or at least closure. Justice does not have to be crippling punishment for the perpetrator. In fact, often it does not even help. Justice is societal recognition of the wrong, aid in overcoming its consequences and ideally preventing more wrongs at the source. It is certainly not saying "But think of the poor perpetrator, his life is ruined now" and then sending him off with a pat on the back to commit more crimes.

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9 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

As for knowing how a car works, how many of you could build a car from scratch?

4StrokeEngine_Ortho_3D_Small.gif

Basically everyone who looked at one of these images for minute would have the basics. It may take you few weeks to make it really running even with team preparing all the parts, but you simply can't say that the principle of car is hard to explain. It's not.

Even principle of computer is easy to explain. You can explain how to go from transistor to logic gates and simple calculator in less than hour (well, I could). Sure, this explanation won't help you make computer, because the hard part is how to get billions of transistors into space small enough ... but still, the principle is easy.

9 hours ago, Scotty said:
9 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

but it probably has railroads, telegraphs, newspapers, and at least some flush toilets.

His world may have cars, but they might run on magic instead of fossil fuels.

Maybe not. You can get far with just railroads.

9 hours ago, Scotty said:
9 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

If Magus world has enough magic to power a comparable number of cars as our world has now, everything would run on magic and dragons would have to be at least as intelligent and co-operative as humans to survive as anything other than a protected species. Ever wonder why there are no lions in Europe or the Middle East? We killed them all before we even got to the Middle Ages.

Dragons might be as intelligent or more than humans, but they don't have to co-operated with them, or maybe dragons were used as weapons.

Dragons have bigger range than lions. Even without intelligence, there may be area with so many dragons even army is unable to clear it, and from time to time some of those dragons goes to "visit".

8 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:
9 hours ago, Scotty said:

Dragons might be as intelligent or more than humans, but they don't have to co-operated with them, or maybe dragons were used as weapons.

What I meant was cooperating with other dragons.  Magus said "tornado sirens" instead of "air raid sirens" so the dragons of his world don't form air forces, at least yet. 

Or maybe they don't want to admit it. Or he might not have experience with air raids - they may not have any aircraft.

Or maybe there are intelligent cooperating dragons who are protecting their territory from humans AND there are less intelligent wild dragons in that territory who do the attacks.

5 hours ago, Douglas said:

I think 'an oppressive government' was intended to be the analogue for the unfortunate circumstance of being stuck on a non-physical plane without a body. The victims, in the analogy, are represented by the people who were lied to, stolen from, and cheated on the escapee's path to freedom.

I think the fairies were the oppressive government.

4 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

This is critically important and is part of why I object to merely giving someone a pass. Let us say that Magus, now free, simply waltzed on his merry way and said, "That was fun. Anyone for pizza?"

That would really be evil. However, I think even before his explanation to Ashley we could saw he's not that kind of person.

 

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5 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

extenuating circumstances

I really wish I could have remembered this term earlier...kept trying to say "special circumstances" but felt that might make seem more dismissive of Magus' action.

 

5 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

This is critically important and is part of why I object to merely giving someone a pass. Let us say that Magus, now free, simply waltzed on his merry way and said, "That was fun. Anyone for pizza?" He would have learned nothing save the lesson that it is OK to manipulate and endanger people when you kinda think you have to. And the circumstances for 'have to' will erode over time. First you commit the crimes out of need. Then you commit more crimes to cover up the first crimes. Then you commit still more crimes, always driven by a 'need' which turned false somewhere on the road unnoticed by you...

Oh if Magus did waltz off without even an "I'm sorry" then of course I'll totally be pissed off at him about it. I don't believe that he would though, aside from mentioning in front of Ashley, the other time we saw Magus mentioning having to atone for his actions was when he was alone, so one could take that as Magus promising to himself that he'll need to do something to make up for what he did. But yes, even "I have to do this, but I promise to make it up to you" would eventually erode as time went on, it doesn't seem like it had started to yet though. I do suspect it's what happened to Sirleck though since he mentioned having a specific reason for becoming a bodysnatcher, but that that reason no longer mattered after a while, that reason could have had good intentions, but now he only cared about himself and what he could do while possessing someone so that made him irredeemable and deserving of his fate. Whatever Magus deserves is up to Elliot and Ellen.

5 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

And there is always the need of the victims. The need to be recognised as people, their need for justice or at least closure. Justice does not have to be crippling punishment for the perpetrator. In fact, often it does not even help. Justice is societal recognition of the wrong, aid in overcoming its consequences and ideally preventing more wrongs at the source. It is certainly not saying "But think of the poor perpetrator, his life is ruined now" and then sending him off with a pat on the back to commit more crimes.

Problem here is, "victim" can be applied to more than just Elliot and Ellen. If we go right to the roots, when Magus was first sent to this world, he was a victim of whoever sabotaged the item he used, he was further victim to the hostility of Immortals. Pandora was also a victim of having lost her husband in a horrific werewolf attack.

Both parties refused to remain victims, Magus sought out help and took any that he could get, even if that help was convoluted and questionable, Pandora took revenge as well as risked her sanity to always be there for her son. Pandora of course had more choices that she could have made and the ones she did were based entirely on her emotional state and there's probably some stuff that Magus could look at in hindsight and think "If only I had known earlier.", it doesn't make what they did any less wrong but knowing why they did things makes a big difference in terms of whether or not we can cast them as actual villains.

I guess my question is, does a victim ever stop being a victim? Or does that get erased the moment a person makes an error in judgment or follows someone's instructions for getting out of whatever situation that made them a victim? Or do we wait for the moment the person goes from "I don't want to do this, but I have to" to "Ahh f^%$ it, I'll do whatever it takes" ?

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