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      Welcome!   03/05/2016

      Welcome, everyone, to the new 910CMX Community Forums. I'm still working on getting them running, so things may change.  If you're a 910 Comic creator and need your forum recreated, let me know and I'll get on it right away.  I'll do my best to make this new place as fun as the last one!
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Story Monday April 2 2018

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4 minutes ago, onfurtherreview said:

A lot of real-world people have parents who aren't evil, and are even well-meaning, who try to change who their children are. Does the lack of ill intent justify sending someone through so-called conversion therapy? Just because you brought another person into the world doesn't mean you have ownership of that person's identity. I'm probably not the only one for whom this turn of events hits a bit close to home (my best friend is dead because of this crap).

Well, Dan did write this entire arc around Pandora's struggle as a parent, and we have the dubious examples of Nanase and her Mom (concealing magic from her daughters and forcing them toward marriage and family), Susan's mother (blaming her own betrayal on all men), and Tedd's mother (I really don't have to explain this one, do I?). Edward definitely has his heart in the right place, but he's managed Tedd like Eisenhower managed the Cold War, making most of the the really important decisions without telling his son.

As for Ma and Pa Dunkel, Ma's the smarter one, but that's not saying a lot. They're nice and their funny and they haven't got a clue.

It's really none of my business or any of ours, but I don't remember Dan saying anything about his own family.

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9 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

Elliot's best stance is "Ellen chooses. I'll back her up, whatever it is.  You (Magus) do not get to choose for her.  If she wants to be a male, I am fine having a twin brother now.."

This.  So much this.

And if Ellen does chose to be male, they simply swap who is going to what school and Elliot changes to Ellen for school reasons.  I can't see Ashley having a problem with that.

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5 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

I don't thing an "Aoki" was involved in the alternate reality thing. Think "Nioi", "Kaoli/Kaori", Archie, and Second Life Tedd. And yes, Magus knows about the Second life; he's thinking about it while he tries to get Ellen to zap Elliot in Grace's Birthday Party. (credit to Scotty for nudging me into finally looking that up.

I misremembered my *oki-s :)

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2 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

It's really none of my business or any of ours, but I don't remember Dan saying anything about his own family.

I never meant to imply anything about any other person's family, just that given how many people read EGS (and the overall demographics of that audience) that I'm probably not the only one for whom this turn of events resonates. 

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2 minutes ago, onfurtherreview said:

A lot of real-world people have parents who aren't evil, and are even well-meaning, who try to change who their children are. Does the lack of ill intent justify sending someone through so-called conversion therapy? Just because you brought another person into the world doesn't mean you have ownership of that person's identity. I'm probably not the only one for whom this turn of events hits a bit close to home (my best friend is dead because of this crap).

I'm not arguing that what Magus currently believes is in Ellen's best interest is valid, but even Dan has been saying that Magus isn't currently in the right frame of mind after having spent nearly 3 years in limbo and desperate to get out, there's a lot of anger and he's jumping to conclusions using obsolete information. It doesn't make him right, but there's hope that he can be convinced of that and this can all be settled without violence or anyone dying.

The Dumbing of Age comic has had 3 major events that involved a date rapist, who once exposed tried to silence the people who exposed him; an abusive controlling father who even after being divorced without custody, still felt that he had say in what his daughter could or couldn't do with her life; and a fanatically religious father who believed his homosexual daughter could be made straight again and even entered the university grounds with a shotgun with the intent of forcing her to return home.  All three instanced ended with the men needing to be hospitalized after getting the snot kicked out of them by either the people they were trying to hurt, or friends of those people.  I'm rather sick of stories like this ending in violence and while the men in the DoA cases deserved what they got, I'd rather it not be the resolution in Magus' situation.

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2 minutes ago, mlooney said:
8 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

Elliot's best stance is "Ellen chooses. I'll back her up, whatever it is.  You (Magus) do not get to choose for her.  If she wants to be a male, I am fine having a twin brother now.."

This.  So much this.

This definitely needs to be said, if for nothing else to make Magus say why he's in rush.

However, it would be better if it wouldn't be only argument. Elliot turning to cheerleadra and saying that he doesn't mind being woman now could be more effective in making Magus doubt his decision ...

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8 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

As for Ma and Pa Dunkel, Ma's the smarter one, but that's not saying a lot. They're nice and their funny and they haven't got a clue.

They have a clue, but I think they ultimately believe that Elliot, and Ellen are capable of making their own mistakes without having to drill it into them.

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1 minute ago, Scotty said:

I'm rather sick of stories like this ending in violence and while the men in the DoA cases deserved what they got, I'd rather it not be the resolution in Magus' situation.

I too would like to see Magus turn the corner without violence, but I will still be rather disappointed if he harms any of the main characters without strenuous opposition.

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7 minutes ago, mlooney said:

And if Ellen does chose to be male, they simply swap who is going to what school and Elliot changes to Ellen for school reasons.  I can't see Ashley having a problem with that.

I think Nanase might have a problem with it as well and not just Ellen going to another school.

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1 minute ago, hkmaly said:

This definitely needs to be said, if for nothing else to make Magus say why he's in rush.

However, it would be better if it wouldn't be only argument. Elliot turning to cheerleadra and saying that he doesn't mind being woman now could be more effective in making Magus doubt his decision ...

I think Elliot's fine unless magus pushes the issue.

Better still is something that builds down the confrontation.  "It's ellen's choice..  You'd want that choice in her place.  You wouldn't want even the right thing done TO you without your consent or control."

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(From page 2, on consideration, since this [rutin's post] is the second time I've been asked re: stuff like this and my opinions, I'm going to elaborate)

I don't condone bad actions, but feel they need to be CORRECTED not hated - hatred for such things only perpetuates divisions, strife, and lack of understanding. In the event of most bad things that people have done in this comic, I regard it as tragedy - asymmetric information, different values clashing, societies being built on flawed people making flawed rules in the struggle to be better, and people who are in pain because of everything else in this sentence trying to make things better, but due to also being affected by these things, stumbling blindly about.

My hatred is... I misstated in a previous post. It's not for the society, but for the flaws in it which need fixing, flaws which teach the wrong lesson, teach lessons the wrong way, or fail to teach at all. And (gently but sternly) correcting people who suffer from said flaws in society having been drilled into them feels like a good start on fixing that. But I do *also* hold society accountable for the actions it encourages.

For example, Magus is NOT in his right mind right now, but does have his society's values which say that gender swapping is no big deal - and probably fails to realize that it would be a very big deal here, due to his years of torment and tearing hurry. He needs to be stopped and corrected, but I can't hate his intentions and thus can't hate him.

(I repeat: I do NOT condone Magus's actions, but nor do I hate)

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Just now, onfurtherreview said:

I too would like to see Magus turn the corner without violence, but I will still be rather disappointed if he harms any of the main characters without strenuous opposition.

If Magus pushes the matter further, then it may have to get violent. The fact that Dan has him explaining his reasons rather than just pushing Elliot aside makes me believe that Magus is somewhat reasonable, it's clear he doesn't want to hurt anyone, but doesn't realize that what he wants to do to Ellen is counter to that.

It's basically the same as Abraham's situation, he was blinded by the belief that his actions created monsters and that his way of protecting people was to kill the monsters created by the diamond, but Ellen was a paradox to that belief because she was created by the diamond, but clearly a person and not a monster so Abraham was violating his promise by trying to kill her, Magus is doing the exact same thing by believing that put Ellen in a bad situation and badly wanting to atone for it, someone needs to make it clear that "fixing" Ellen would not atone for anyting.

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2 minutes ago, Scotty said:
12 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

As for Ma and Pa Dunkel, Ma's the smarter one, but that's not saying a lot. They're nice and their funny and they haven't got a clue.

They have a clue, but I think they ultimately believe that Elliot, and Ellen are capable of making their own mistakes without having to drill it into them.

I think they were doing more effective parenting when Elliot was younger. Possibly they made Elliot the boy scout he's now ... or, at least, were ready to do something if he wouldn't be naturally so.

But at this age, if you made some mistake in parenting it's usually too late to fix it anyway.

5 minutes ago, Scotty said:
13 minutes ago, mlooney said:

And if Ellen does chose to be male, they simply swap who is going to what school and Elliot changes to Ellen for school reasons.  I can't see Ashley having a problem with that.

I think Nanase might have a problem with it as well and not just Ellen going to another school.

Definitely. And, well ... I would say that even if Ellen decided to stay woman just for Nanase, I would believe it would be worth it for her.

6 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:
9 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

This definitely needs to be said, if for nothing else to make Magus say why he's in rush.

However, it would be better if it wouldn't be only argument. Elliot turning to cheerleadra and saying that he doesn't mind being woman now could be more effective in making Magus doubt his decision ...

I think Elliot's fine unless magus pushes the issue.

Better still is something that builds down the confrontation.  "It's ellen's choice..  You'd want that choice in her place.  You wouldn't want even the right thing done TO you without your consent or control."

Magus will push.

... and I'm not entirely sure this will build down the confrontation, no matter how good point it is.

 

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1 minute ago, Vorlonagent said:

I think Elliot's fine unless magus pushes the issue.

Better still is something that builds down the confrontation.  "It's ellen's choice..  You'd want that choice in her place.  You wouldn't want even the right thing done TO you without your consent or control."

Better than better would be a timely interruption such as an alarm going off, sirens going off, Waldo wandering in and asking where he is (BTW, did you know Waldo is in Google Earth now?), Helena appearing and telling Magus he's being an ass (previous experience in ass-identification), a white rabbit with a watch wandering through, tribbles (awwww!), Carol Brown parachuting in through the broken window or hanging outside it, Phill, or everyone gets root canals.

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2 minutes ago, hkmaly said:
11 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:
15 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

This definitely needs to be said, if for nothing else to make Magus say why he's in rush.

However, it would be better if it wouldn't be only argument. Elliot turning to cheerleadra and saying that he doesn't mind being woman now could be more effective in making Magus doubt his decision ...

I think Elliot's fine unless magus pushes the issue.

Better still is something that builds down the confrontation.  "It's ellen's choice..  You'd want that choice in her place.  You wouldn't want even the right thing done TO you without your consent or control."

Magus will push.

... and I'm not entirely sure this will build down the confrontation, no matter how good point it is.

To clarify: "Ellen should choose" is not surprising. Magus might already think about such argument and be ready to it.

Elliot turning to Cheerleadra can surprise Magus and make him rethink everything from start.

2 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

Helena appearing and telling Magus he's being an ass (previous experience in ass-identification)

I think Magus would expect her to attack and not really listen to what she's saying.

3 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

or everyone gets root canals.

NOOOO, let them fight, that will hurt less.

 

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4 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Magus will push.

... and I'm not entirely sure this will build down the confrontation, no matter how good point it is.

That's what I expect too.  And a Cheerleadra transformation is likely to follow.  The question then is if we get a second one.   :)

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1 minute ago, hkmaly said:

I think they were doing more effective parenting when Elliot was younger. Possibly they made Elliot the boy scout he's now ... or, at least, were ready to do something if he wouldn't be naturally so.

Considering when Elliot met Tedd, it stands to reason that Elliot was always like that, hence Edwards comment that Elliot must have been born wearing a boy scout uniform.

It's been strongly implied that Elliot and Tony started off as friends. But when Tony started bullying others like Tedd, Elliot didn't want any part of it. I can relate to that because in Kindergarten, I befriended someone with downs syndrome, and because of that ended up taking the brunt of the bullying from other students, rather than being a hero like Elliot though, I became more like Justin and would get teased about things until I lashed out at them and then I was the one getting in trouble...

Anyway, the Dunkels certainly guided Elliot while he was growing up, making sure he had responsibilities and later got summer jobs and such, but it doesn't seem like they really worried about discipline too much.

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58 minutes ago, Scotty said:
1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

I think they were doing more effective parenting when Elliot was younger. Possibly they made Elliot the boy scout he's now ... or, at least, were ready to do something if he wouldn't be naturally so.

Considering when Elliot met Tedd, it stands to reason that Elliot was always like that, hence Edwards comment that Elliot must have been born wearing a boy scout uniform.

Elliot met Tedd in fourth grade and Edward might not really know him before that.

What, you think there is no opportunity to parenting before 4th grade?

 

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22 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Elliot met Tedd in fourth grade and Edward might not really know him before that.

What, you think there is no opportunity to parenting before 4th grade?

 

No, but I don't think Elliot would have become a perfect angel by the time he reached 4th grade if there was any need for that kind of parenting.

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Elliot's behavior in the years when he met Tedd and Justin reminds me of a Knight-Errant.  In the name of "Justice" attacking people weaker than himself who are attacking people weaker than themselves.

Or as Elliot came to realize it later, bullying the bullies.

It wasn't a viable model for a justice system a thousand years ago.  And it still doesn't work.

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22 minutes ago, Scotty said:
46 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Elliot met Tedd in fourth grade and Edward might not really know him before that.

What, you think there is no opportunity to parenting before 4th grade?

No, but I don't think Elliot would have become a perfect angel by the time he reached 4th grade if there was any need for that kind of parenting.

I would consider it more likely than to turn someone to angel between 4th grade and junior school.

1 minute ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Elliot's behavior in the years when he met Tedd and Justin reminds me of a Knight-Errant.  In the name of "Justice" attacking people weaker than himself who are attacking people weaker than themselves.

Or as Elliot came to realize it later, bullying the bullies.

It wasn't a viable model for a justice system a thousand years ago.  And it still doesn't work.

It's much better than nothing. It may not be useful now, but there was serious lack of alternatives thousand years ago.

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13 minutes ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Or as Elliot came to realize it later, bullying the bullies.

I dunno, personally I would see bullying the bullies as if Elliot constantly went out of his way to pester Tony just as much as Tony pestered Tedd, Elliot only went to Tedd's defense when Tony was seen going after Tedd. Elliot was viewing himself more harshly because he liked defending people.

If you want bully of bullies, look no further than Gerald.

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2 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

I think Elliot's fine unless magus pushes the issue.

Better still is something that builds down the confrontation.  "It's ellen's choice..  You'd want that choice in her place.  You wouldn't want even the right thing done TO you without your consent or control."

I'm beginning to wonder just how much choice ur-ellen was given, most likely being hurried into "doing the right thing" with no consideration for how painful she would find it in the long run.

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1 hour ago, Haylo said:

I'm beginning to wonder just how much choice ur-ellen was given, most likely being hurried into "doing the right thing" with no consideration for how painful she would find it in the long run.

Remember, at the time they did not have any options for permanently turning anyone into the other gender save the rather drastic one that would make the target permanently female. Also, then and now, Ellen's principal motivation was to not just be a copy of Elliot. Moreover, Ellen has never experienced gender dysphoria; she has said as much and she has studied the matter. Whether this is because she fully identifies as female or she like the current Elliot is 'gender-meh', we cannot say, of course. Magus is operating from the assumption that Ellen is like Magus' own case, which is a tall assumption. He is also assuming that none of Ellen's friends would have noticed or cared if she had experienced gender dysphoria, which is more than a little insulting -- they would at the very least eventually notice that she was unhappy, which in fact Nanase did.

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