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The Old Hack

Story Monday April 9, 2018

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Just now, hkmaly said:

... I think if GST wouldn't be satisfied with his position he would just kill Lort Tedd. He is satisfied with his POSITION. There are other things he's not satisfied with and the things he does to push Tedd in direction he would prefer is what Nioi calls "corrupting".

That's the idea of why Lord Tedd would be a catspaw, he's just a tool for General Shade Tail.

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2 minutes ago, Scotty said:
4 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

... I think if GST wouldn't be satisfied with his position he would just kill Lort Tedd. He is satisfied with his POSITION. There are other things he's not satisfied with and the things he does to push Tedd in direction he would prefer is what Nioi calls "corrupting".

That's the idea of why Lord Tedd would be a catspaw, he's just a tool for General Shade Tail.

Not a tool. General Shade Tail is unlikely to be clever enough to actually control Lord Tedd completely - and he doesn't need to. The term "catspaw" might still apply, though.

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13 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Not a tool. General Shade Tail is unlikely to be clever enough to actually control Lord Tedd completely - and he doesn't need to. The term "catspaw" might still apply, though.

Why wouldn't we think General Shade-Tail to be clever?

Lord Tedd is likely a tool.  There's only so many really good artificers out there so replacing Lord Tedd is something of a non-option.

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2 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

Why wouldn't we think General Shade-Tail to be clever?

With the emphasis on strength he is likely less clever than Grace. Meanwhile, Tedd is very clever and you need considerably higher intelligence to predict someone's reaction for complete control. And it's more risky ... and the gain is unlikely to be that much greater.

(On the other hand, while Tedd is clever he may be too focused on his magitech and is not really using his cleverness for other stuff.)

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15 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

With the emphasis on strength he is likely less clever than Grace. Meanwhile, Tedd is very clever and you need considerably higher intelligence to predict someone's reaction for complete control. And it's more risky ... and the gain is unlikely to be that much greater.

(On the other hand, while Tedd is clever he may be too focused on his magitech and is not really using his cleverness for other stuff.)

Lord Tedd's methods to date don't show much subtly...or cleverness even though they do show a good deal of knowledge and abstract intelligence. 

For General Shade-Tail to be manipulating Lord Tedd as we all seem to think he is (me included), he has to be clever, or at least moreso than Lord Tedd.

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18 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

For General Shade-Tail to be manipulating Lord Tedd as we all seem to think he is (me included), he has to be clever, or at least moreso than Lord Tedd.

It is possible to influence someone without being manipulative. Sheer raw force of personality often works fine. Absent a steadying influence like Elliot, a more aggressive and vengeful one might well take its place.

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11 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

It is possible to influence someone without being manipulative. Sheer raw force of personality often works fine. Absent a steadying influence like Elliot, a more aggressive and vengeful one might well take its place.

Indeed, given how great an influence Grace has had on Tedd, and that General Shade-tail likely still shares all but one parent with Grace and their meeting may have been equally momentous, it's quite possible this Shade-tail is meeting some of the needs Elliot fills and some of the needs Grace fills for our Tedd.

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1 minute ago, CritterKeeper said:
14 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

It is possible to influence someone without being manipulative. Sheer raw force of personality often works fine. Absent a steadying influence like Elliot, a more aggressive and vengeful one might well take its place.

Indeed, given how great an influence Grace has had on Tedd, and that General Shade-tail likely still shares all but one parent with Grace and their meeting may have been equally momentous, it's quite possible this Shade-tail is meeting some of the needs Elliot fills and some of the needs Grace fills for our Tedd.

... except he's "filling" them differently, which is pushing Tedd to be more aggressive and vengeful - exactly what General Shade tail wants.

(Although SOME needs are likely being filled by Nioi instead.)

But that's exactly what I'm talking about. Noone would say our Tedd is Grace's (or Elliot's) tool.

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3 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

... except he's "filling" them differently, which is pushing Tedd to be more aggressive and vengeful - exactly what General Shade tail wants.

(Although SOME needs are likely being filled by Nioi instead.)

But that's exactly what I'm talking about. Noone would say our Tedd is Grace's (or Elliot's) tool.

If Lord Tedd met General Shade Tail before he met Nioi, that could make the difference, General Shade Tail referred to Nioi as on of Lord Tedd's pets after all to it would make sense that Nioi came after. Nioi might have softened some of the effect that General Shade Tail has had on Lord Tedd, but has thus far been unable to expose just how much of a negative influence he is because a wrong move could allow General Shade Tail to turn Lord Tedd against her.

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1 minute ago, Scotty said:

If Lord Tedd met General Shade Tail before he met Nioi, that could make the difference, General Shade Tail referred to Nioi as on of Lord Tedd's pets after all to it would make sense that Nioi came after. Nioi might have softened some of the effect that General Shade Tail has had on Lord Tedd, but has thus far been unable to expose just how much of a negative influence he is because a wrong move could allow General Shade Tail to turn Lord Tedd against her.

Agree. Lord Tedd met General Shade Tail sooner ...

... and in fact, maybe it was General Shade Tail who found Nioi for Lord Tedd, although he didn't expected how much influence she will get.

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24 minutes ago, CritterKeeper said:

Indeed, given how great an influence Grace has had on Tedd, and that General Shade-tail likely still shares all but one parent with Grace and their meeting may have been equally momentous, it's quite possible this Shade-tail is meeting some of the needs Elliot fills and some of the needs Grace fills for our Tedd.

I'd agree.  I'd say the needs Elliot and Grace meet for Tedd are being met by General Shade-Tail and Nioi with Lord Tedd.

I'd also say that force of personality only gets you so far.  Being manipulative is also knowing when and how.  That's cleverness.

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20 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

I'd also say that force of personality only gets you so far.  Being manipulative is also knowing when and how.  That's cleverness.

Yes, but you can also be manipulative and still not turn the target into tool.

For example, I can imagine General Shade Tail is "protecting" Tedd from some other people who might have positive influence on him. Probably made sure Tedd thinks he ordered him to. But, if Tedd would decide to meet someone else himself, General Shade Tail would just warn him about the risk ... because he doesn't have him under complete control and is not clever enough to have plan which would prevent such meeting without Tedd getting some suspicion.

Also, I don't think he would be able to remove Nioi now, unless she will do some mistake.

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24 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Yes, but you can also be manipulative and still not turn the target into tool.

For example, I can imagine General Shade Tail is "protecting" Tedd from some other people who might have positive influence on him. Probably made sure Tedd thinks he ordered him to. But, if Tedd would decide to meet someone else himself, General Shade Tail would just warn him about the risk ... because he doesn't have him under complete control and is not clever enough to have plan which would prevent such meeting without Tedd getting some suspicion.

Also, I don't think he would be able to remove Nioi now, unless she will do some mistake.

Shade-Tail seems to accept Nioi's presence, if grudgingly.  Perhaps judged that removing her would be worse than letting her stay/live.  What little time we've seen suggests to me he's the "power behind the throne" with Lord Tedd as the one on the throne. 

If I were to read into what little we've seen, I'd suggest Shade-Tail as someone encouraging Lord Tedd's feelings of abandonment and alienation and the rage that goes with them.  People are most easily manipulated through their emotions, so I would guess that Shade-Tail is trying to keep Lord Tedd in a raw, immature and highly mercuric state, with Nioi in the role of a sort of "living plushie" that a permanently adolescent Lord Tedd clutches at to make the pain go away for a while.

I'd also suggest that Shade Tail might be a little complacent, maybe a bit too used to his position.

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17 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

If I were to read into what little we've seen, I'd suggest Shade-Tail as someone encouraging Lord Tedd's feelings of abandonment and alienation and the rage that goes with them.  People are most easily manipulated through their emotions, so I would guess that Shade-Tail is trying to keep Lord Tedd in a raw, immature and highly mercuric state, with Nioi in the role of a sort of "living plushie" that a permanently adolescent Lord Tedd clutches at to make the pain go away for a while.

I agree with this, however that doesn't require Shade Tail to be able to outscheme Lord Tedd or being able to turn him into tool. It's just that Shade Tail is more mature and understand the emotions. By keeping Tedd immature, he can't control exactly what will Lord Tedd do, but can be reasonably sure it would be something he likes anyway.

On second though ... pain might not be the best word. Shade Tail basically teaches Tedd that only way to have something is to own it. Nioi is not his equal, she's his pet, servant. She will be punished if she would abandon him. That's the way how to prevent abandonment Shade Tail is teaching Tedd.

22 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

I'd also suggest that Shade Tail might be a little complacent, maybe a bit too used to his position.

Note that him pretending to not care is important part of hiding how much he influences Tedd. On the other hand, he might be getting little complacent based on how easy it was so far ...

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11 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

I agree with this, however that doesn't require Shade Tail to be able to outscheme Lord Tedd or being able to turn him into tool. It's just that Shade Tail is more mature and understand the emotions. By keeping Tedd immature, he can't control exactly what will Lord Tedd do, but can be reasonably sure it would be something he likes anyway.

I'd agree that Shade-Tail dpoesn't have Lord Tedd on marionette strings.  But has striven to be the one Lord Tedd looks to for advice and confidence, meaning that Lord Tedd shouldn't make a big decision without consulting Shade Tail and Shade-Tail's approval.  I see Shade-Tail's control as primarily political.  I don't think Sahde-Tail is trying for a cult-grade contorl over Lord Tedd's personal life.
 

 

15 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

On second though ... pain might not be the best word. Shade Tail basically teaches Tedd that only way to have something is to own it. Nioi is not his equal, she's his pet, servant. She will be punished if she would abandon him. That's the way how to prevent abandonment Shade Tail is teaching Tedd.

I would expect that's how Sahde-Tail would put it with the goal of keeping Lord Tedd a bit distance from everybody else.  I don't think he'd want Lord Tedd to look too much on his subordinates as pets.  Shade-Tail is a subordinate!  9at least on the organization chart)
 

18 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Note that him pretending to not care is important part of hiding how much he influences Tedd. On the other hand, he might be getting little complacent based on how easy it was so far ...

That "not caring" was what I took as evidence of complacency.   Even if Shade-Tail isn't trying to control every aspect of Lord Tedd's life, he should be keeping his finger on the pulse.

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10 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:
30 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

I agree with this, however that doesn't require Shade Tail to be able to outscheme Lord Tedd or being able to turn him into tool. It's just that Shade Tail is more mature and understand the emotions. By keeping Tedd immature, he can't control exactly what will Lord Tedd do, but can be reasonably sure it would be something he likes anyway.

I'd agree that Shade-Tail dpoesn't have Lord Tedd on marionette strings.  But has striven to be the one Lord Tedd looks to for advice and confidence, meaning that Lord Tedd shouldn't make a big decision without consulting Shade Tail and Shade-Tail's approval.  I see Shade-Tail's control as primarily political.  I don't think Sahde-Tail is trying for a cult-grade contorl over Lord Tedd's personal life.

We are getting closer :)

Lord Tedd doesn't need Shade Tail's approval. But Shade Tail positioned himself as most reliable advisor (if not only advisor), and Tedd is not so confident in his political decisions, so he rarely does something Shade Tail didn't approved.

12 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:
33 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Shade Tail basically teaches Tedd that only way to have something is to own it. Nioi is not his equal, she's his pet, servant. She will be punished if she would abandon him. That's the way how to prevent abandonment Shade Tail is teaching Tedd.

I would expect that's how Sahde-Tail would put it with the goal of keeping Lord Tedd a bit distance from everybody else.  I don't think he'd want Lord Tedd to look too much on his subordinates as pets.  Shade-Tail is a subordinate!  9at least on the organization chart)

Shade Tail is advisor, not pet. Him referring to Nioi as pet is exactly to highlight the difference between them, despite both being subordinates on the chart. On the other hand, he needs to be careful: his own teaching would make Lord Tedd turn against him if he would suspect Shade Tail is not following orders.

18 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:
38 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Note that him pretending to not care is important part of hiding how much he influences Tedd. On the other hand, he might be getting little complacent based on how easy it was so far ...

That "not caring" was what I took as evidence of complacency.   Even if Shade-Tail isn't trying to control every aspect of Lord Tedd's life, he should be keeping his finger on the pulse.

Yes. Nioi has lot of influence on Lord Tedd. If Shade Tail really didn't knew where she is and didn't cared, he got too complacent. But ... it's possible he just pretended that.

 

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5 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

I'd agree that Shade-Tail dpoesn't have Lord Tedd on marionette strings.  But has striven to be the one Lord Tedd looks to for advice and confidence, meaning that Lord Tedd shouldn't make a big decision without consulting Shade Tail and Shade-Tail's approval.  I see Shade-Tail's control as primarily political.  I don't think Sahde-Tail is trying for a cult-grade contorl over Lord Tedd's personal life.

Shade Tail getting to Tedd as a specific point in Tedd's life, like when Tedd really needed someone, would have been key. All Shade Tail would need to do is present himself as someone Tedd could trust in having his best interests in mind.  It's probably not just Elliot that's missing from the picture in Lord Tedd's life, but both Edward and Noriko as well.

It'd take a while, but Shade Tail would be able to convince Tedd that he knows him best and that anyone else would be just pretending, and if anyone ever questioned Lord Tedd or General Shade Tail in anything, it'd prove they weren't really Lord Tedd's friend. Like if General Shade Tail found out that Nioi had ducked out to the main universe to find a way to defeat him. He could just tell Lord Tedd that she's trying to destroy everything that he had helped Lord Tedd accomplish and Lord Tedd would be more inclined to believe him over Nioi.

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14 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Shade Tail getting to Tedd as a specific point in Tedd's life, like when Tedd really needed someone, would have been key. All Shade Tail would need to do is present himself as someone Tedd could trust in having his best interests in mind.  It's probably not just Elliot that's missing from the picture in Lord Tedd's life, but both Edward and Noriko as well.

Well Noriko was missing in main universe as well. And Edward ... maybe Edward didn't shown to understand Tedd enough. Or maybe he died.

14 minutes ago, Scotty said:

It'd take a while, but Shade Tail would be able to convince Tedd that he knows him best and that anyone else would be just pretending, and if anyone ever questioned Lord Tedd or General Shade Tail in anything, it'd prove they weren't really Lord Tedd's friend. Like if General Shade Tail found out that Nioi had ducked out to the main universe to find a way to defeat him. He could just tell Lord Tedd that she's trying to destroy everything that he had helped Lord Tedd accomplish and Lord Tedd would be more inclined to believe him over Nioi.

Yes. On the other hand, it would hurt Tedd a lot, so General Shade Tail is not likely to do this without being sure - or being forced to. To General Shade Tail disappointment, Nioi is not so easily replaceable as he would like, her almost identical clone notwithstanding. It would likely be better to arrange some accident and kill Nioi without telling Tedd. Or even better, arrange so it seems someone else killed Nioi. Maybe some enemy Tedd was reluctant to eradicate before ...

(On a related note: if he was just pretending to not care, it could mean he really didn't known and was punching the bag so much to let off the anger about it. Or, maybe he though he knows where Nioi is but didn't know why.)

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1 minute ago, hkmaly said:

We are getting closer :)

Lord Tedd doesn't need Shade Tail's approval. But Shade Tail positioned himself as most reliable advisor (if not only advisor), and Tedd is not so confident in his political decisions, so he rarely does something Shade Tail didn't approved.

I see shade-Tail as encouraging an emotional dependency on himself.  Shade-Tail is the steel in Lord Tedd's spine.  Shade-Tail wouldn't want a series of rational reasons why he occupies a special place with Lord Tedd but a void in Lord Tedd's life that only Shade Tail's confidence keeps at bay. 

A good manipulator can insinuate themselves into exactly the position you describe without ever having to tell the person they're manipulating what to think.

3 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Shade Tail is advisor, not pet. Him referring to Nioi as pet is exactly to highlight the difference between them, despite both being subordinates on the chart. On the other hand, he needs to be careful: his own teaching would make Lord Tedd turn against him if he would suspect Shade Tail is not following orders.

Yes. Nioi has lot of influence on Lord Tedd. If Shade Tail really didn't knew where she is and didn't cared, he got too complacent. But ... it's possible he just pretended that.

I expect that Nioi has no official role in whatever Hierarchy Lord Tedd has.  Not to go all Godwin's Law, if Lord Tedd is Hitler, Nioi is Eva Braun.  Hers is not a General Staff sort of role.

Also, if shade-Tail is a General, that implies soldiers.

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1 minute ago, hkmaly said:

Yes. On the other hand, it would hurt Tedd a lot, so General Shade Tail is not likely to do this without being sure. To General Shade Tail disappointment, Nioi is not so easily replaceable as he would like, her almost identical clone notwithstanding. It would likely be better to arrange some accident and kill Nioi without telling Tedd. Or even better, arrange so it seems someone else killed Nioi. Maybe some enemy Tedd was reluctant to eradicate ...

It would hurt Tedd yes, but convincing Tedd that Nioi was betraying him would further cement Tedd's trust in Shade Tail.

Consider Voltaire's realization that he could have befriended Tedd instead of trying to traumatize him with the death of Elliot. That's likely what Shade Tail did.

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31 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

I see shade-Tail as encouraging an emotional dependency on himself.  Shade-Tail is the steel in Lord Tedd's spine.  Shade-Tail wouldn't want a series of rational reasons why he occupies a special place with Lord Tedd but a void in Lord Tedd's life that only Shade Tail's confidence keeps at bay. 

Shade Tail wouldn't want ONLY rational reasons.

31 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

A good manipulator can insinuate themselves into exactly the position you describe without ever having to tell the person they're manipulating what to think.

... telling them what to think would actually be counter-productive wouldn't it?

31 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

I expect that Nioi has no official role in whatever Hierarchy Lord Tedd has.  Not to go all Godwin's Law, if Lord Tedd is Hitler, Nioi is Eva Braun.  Hers is not a General Staff sort of role.

She described herself as servant. She likely does have SOME position. Wasn't Eva Braun photograph and photography studio assistant?

Not general, sure.

Actually, lab assistant makes LOT of sense in Tedd's case.

27 minutes ago, Scotty said:

It would hurt Tedd yes, but convincing Tedd that Nioi was betraying him would further cement Tedd's trust in Shade Tail.

Yes ... but would that be worth it? Tedd might been emotionally unstable to the point that he would get HARDER to control if hurt too much.

(Also, I think that for real cementing, there would need to be more than Shade Tail's word to convince Tedd.)

 

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9 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Shade Tail wouldn't want ONLY rational reasons.

Needing reasons is actually a symptom something is going wrong.  As any good manipulator knows, it's all about removing choice by evoking powerful emotions  The mind being manipulated will provide any number of rationalizations to support an emotional decision without prompting.  If the manipulator has to actually provide those reasons themselves, they're losing control.

10 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

... telling them what to think would actually be counter-productive wouldn't it?

Yes.  Because it exposes the puppet strings the manipulator has in place.   There are always some even if they aren't total.

15 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

She described herself as servant. She likely does have SOME position. Wasn't Eva Braun photograph and photography studio assistant?

Not general, sure.

Probably not in the military even, but likely what we'd call today a "civilian contractor."  I don't actually know though.

17 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Yes ... but would that be worth it? Tedd might been emotionally unstable to the point that he would get HARDER to control if hurt too much.

(Also, I think that for real cementing, there would need to be more than Shade Tail's word to convince Tedd.)

It's a tough thing to deal with someone like Nioi who has the potential to disrupt the emotional dependency the manipulator needs to have control.  A lot of time the best thing is to make sure the dependency on the manipulator is intact and leave the rest alone.  Acting against a Nioi directly is something else that calls unwanted attention to the manipulator's puppet strings.

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39 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:
1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Yes ... but would that be worth it? Tedd might been emotionally unstable to the point that he would get HARDER to control if hurt too much.

(Also, I think that for real cementing, there would need to be more than Shade Tail's word to convince Tedd.)

It's a tough thing to deal with someone like Nioi who has the potential to disrupt the emotional dependency the manipulator needs to have control.  A lot of time the best thing is to make sure the dependency on the manipulator is intact and leave the rest alone.  Acting against a Nioi directly is something else that calls unwanted attention to the manipulator's puppet strings.

It wouldn't be hard though. When we saw Lord Tedd looking for Nioi, General Shade Tail said "Sorry, M'Lord, I don't keep track of your pets" which to us is an indication that Shade Tail doesn't care what Tedd does, but if Shade Tail is always like that, then Tedd might just chalk it up to Shade Tail being gruff as usual.

But if Shade Tail does get any hints that Nioi is onto his scheme, whatever it is, then Shade Tail could build up just enough "evidence" that the reason Nioi had disappeared (maybe on more than one occasion?) was that she was plotting against Tedd and had only pretended to be nice to get close. Shade Tail could put on a whole "It's my fault, I should have realized she was up to something when you first asked about her whereabouts. She had me fooled as well." and even if Tedd was emotionally attached to Nioi, he's very likely emotionally attached to Shade Tail and has known him longer than Nioi, so the default trust would be in Shade Tail. Lord Tedd's logic would be "everyone wants to take advantage of me, but Shade Tail is always there when it matters."

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So of the great "Power Behind The Throne" figures from our own history, who would be most similar to Shade Tail and Nioi?

Cardinal de Richelieu?

Eleanor Roosevelt?

Wallis Simpson?

Grigori Rasputin?

Rudolf Hess?

Dick Cheney?

Yoko Ono?

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15 hours ago, Scotty said:

It wouldn't be hard though. When we saw Lord Tedd looking for Nioi, General Shade Tail said "Sorry, M'Lord, I don't keep track of your pets" which to us is an indication that Shade Tail doesn't care what Tedd does, but if Shade Tail is always like that, then Tedd might just chalk it up to Shade Tail being gruff as usual.

But if Shade Tail does get any hints that Nioi is onto his scheme, whatever it is, then Shade Tail could build up just enough "evidence" that the reason Nioi had disappeared (maybe on more than one occasion?) was that she was plotting against Tedd and had only pretended to be nice to get close. Shade Tail could put on a whole "It's my fault, I should have realized she was up to something when you first asked about her whereabouts. She had me fooled as well." and even if Tedd was emotionally attached to Nioi, he's very likely emotionally attached to Shade Tail and has known him longer than Nioi, so the default trust would be in Shade Tail. Lord Tedd's logic would be "everyone wants to take advantage of me, but Shade Tail is always there when it matters."

You have hit on the most important part of maintaining control.  As long as Lord Tedd defaults to Shade Tail first and before anybody else, it's all good for Shade-tail.

The "I don't keep track of your pets" strip is what suggested to me that Shade-Tail is getting complacent.  It's an indication that Shade-Tail doesn't consider Nioi to be a threat to his manipulation of Lord Tedd.  and we've seen Nioi as a very proactive individual.

Nioi can become a threat even if she herself never figures Shade Tail out.  She can become the voice Lord Tedd listens to more than Shade-Tail.  she can encourage Lord Tedd to be more self-reliant.

Running a "she's a manipulator" game against Nioi is itself a problem because it asks Lord Tedd to look for manipulators and consider what a manipulator is and how they operate.   Shade -Tail is best off with Lord Tedd being clueless. Anything that asks Lord Tedd to grow up and take responsibility for who is around him and what they're telling him is a threat to Shade-Tail's control...even if the asking comes from Shade-Tail. 

Nioi likely knows what's up and realizes that she has the same problem.  Pointing out Shade-Tail as a manipulator will also allow Shade-Tail to say the same about her.  her best bet is to build up the hurt and damaged parts of Lord Tedd and hope he will see the truth himself. 

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