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partner555

Main Wed April 25 2018

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http://www.egscomics.com/index.php?id=2490

Spoiler space.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Huh, so artifacts from the previous system are in the minority.

And the wand is built during the current system, it just didn't work before tonight. I'm assuming that it's because the creator thought the rules from a previous system applied.

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Dragging Ellen is a chore.

I would still question Jarvis about artifact weight, unless, ASHLEY IS NOT AN ARTIFACT, dummy. :demonicduck:

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13 minutes ago, partner555 said:

Huh, so artifacts from the previous system are in the minority.

However, the ones from current system are unlikely to cause troubles. As shown on the magpie, which definitely was not causing any trouble to the golem, being easily crunchable.

And if the magpie wouldn't be so stupid, it would already notice LAST PAGE that the golem is too big to fit inside her AND too heavy to carry. As I noted on last page comments.

13 minutes ago, partner555 said:

And the wand is built during the current system, it just didn't work before tonight. I'm assuming that it's because the creator thought the rules from a previous system applied.

Apparently. The creator likely had no idea that they are blocked by Will of Magic ...

...

...

... vast wisdom. Right.

9 minutes ago, Stature said:

Dragging Ellen is a chore.

I would still question Jarvis about artifact weight, unless, ASHLEY IS NOT AN ARTIFACT, dummy.

Not sure why Jarvis, but note that it was the golem which weight was commented on.

 

EDIT: Wait, did Dan said hundreds? It's not thousands? YAY new info!

 

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Thousands of something is just ten times more than hundreds of something.
So depending on the observer's point of view and position on the Hyperbole-Understatement scale, "hundreds" or "thousands" may be referring to the same number.

This is one of those times when you really need Grandma to show up and explain to the kiddies exactly what it is they have been using as toys in the attic.

 

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I am starting to feel just a little more liking for that wand. At least it is giving out useful information now.

3 minutes ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

This is one of those times when you really need Grandma to show up and explain to the kiddies exactly what it is they have been using as toys in the attic.

You are never going to let them forget the time they were caught playing spin-the-bottle with one of your canopic jars, are you.

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14 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

EDIT: Wait, did Dan said hundreds? It's not thousands? YAY new info!

We knew Pandora was hundreds of years old, and that the last system change happened before her last willing reset. That would place the reset anywhere between 150 to 350 years before she met Blaike (giving the chance of the system change happening in the first year of her previous self's life as well as the last year, and of course assuming her previous self went exactly 200 years) Could still say the last change was 999 years ago. It might be debatable that 1299 could still be considered hundreds because there aren't multiple thousands yet, though what about 1999? At what point does hundreds change to thousands?

 

Kevin being an experimental wand that never worked before now is odd, the theory of him being created using an outdated system after the change doesn't make sense because how would that even be accomplished if someone had lost the ability to cast spells from an older system. I could understand if Kevin was created moments before the system change so that it wasn't that he never worked at all, but never had the chance to work. But then his knowledge seems recent since he apparently knows what robots are to be able to refer to the magpie as a bird-bot. and the golems aura being unrecognizable suggests Kevin is seeing older magic at work, although maybe we'll find that it is an Uryuom based golem after all and it's aura looks like Grace's.

Maybe this is still indicative of influence from the diamond being shattered, I dunno.

Also, the golem could still be friendly, that bird bot did attack it first and the golem reacted accordingly, as long as Ashley doesn't act threatening, she should be fine.

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16 minutes ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Thousands of something is just ten times more than hundreds of something.
So depending on the observer's point of view and position on the Hyperbole-Understatement scale, "hundreds" or "thousands" may be referring to the same number.

Technically, yes, but I don't think Dan would use this excuse.

11 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

I am starting to feel just a little more liking for that wand. At least it is giving out useful information now.

... to us. Not that useful to Ashley, especially in her current situation.

5 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Kevin being an experimental wand that never worked before now is odd, the theory of him being created using an outdated system after the change doesn't make sense because how would that even be accomplished if someone had lost the ability to cast spells from an older system.

The previous systems are not completely independent and wandmaker is type of wizard who can use spell by imprinting them to wands. Apparently it IS possible for current wandmaker to put non-working spell into wand in way the wand starts working when the spell starts working. Also, it's possible Kevin is using mix of previous system magic and new system magic.

8 minutes ago, Scotty said:

and the golems aura being unrecognizable suggests Kevin is seeing older magic at work

Yes. Again, ability to view auras may not be limited to system, but auras from older system would be unrecognizable.

Old magic artifact still giving auras could actually help attract thieves to the facility, although it's possible they only started giving auras after reset.

(Magus's comment can be taken either way, it's not like he saw the place before)

11 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Also, the golem could still be friendly, that bird bot did attack it first and the golem reacted accordingly, as long as Ashley doesn't act threatening, she should be fine.

Well Ashley DID thrown Kevin on him ... but yes, I think her action wasn't as threatening as the magpie's, and also it's possible the golem would give more chances to human than to artifact obviously too stupid to negotiate with.

 

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2 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

... to us. Not that useful to Ashley, especially in her current situation.

Yes and no. Yes, she could deduce a lot of it on her own. But not all of it, and some of it -- specifically that all sorts of magical devices are coming to life, old and new -- may well be important for her to know in maybe only minutes from now. The distinction might not seem to matter but to Magus at least it could be an indication that big trouble is on its way.

 

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1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Well Ashley DID thrown Kevin on him ... but yes, I think her action wasn't as threatening as the magpie's, and also it's possible the golem would give more chances to human than to artifact obviously too stupid to negotiate with.

 

Given that the magpie bot seemed to be running on an "attack first, figure out if you can subdue it later" program, I would say that we can safely assume that it was of low intelligence.

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3 hours ago, The Old Hack said:
3 hours ago, hkmaly said:

... to us. Not that useful to Ashley, especially in her current situation.

Yes and no. Yes, she could deduce a lot of it on her own. But not all of it, and some of it -- specifically that all sorts of magical devices are coming to life, old and new -- may well be important for her to know in maybe only minutes from now. The distinction might not seem to matter but to Magus at least it could be an indication that big trouble is on its way.

I don't think it will be useful to Magus either. Like, maybe later, when they would have time to ask for some details or maybe talk about it with Edward and/or Adrian ... but in current situation the "Leaving time is now" is the part Ashley needs to pay attention to.

1 hour ago, ijuin said:

Given that the magpie bot seemed to be running on an "attack first, figure out if you can subdue it later" program, I would say that we can safely assume that it was of low intelligence.

Worse. It may actually go by fixed program with no adaptability, much less ability to learn. The kind of programming which would make golem continue to add water to bathtub even if it's already overflowing.

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37 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Worse. It may actually go by fixed program with no adaptability, much less ability to learn. The kind of programming which would make golem continue to add water to bathtub even if it's already overflowing.

Kind of like a CEO who majored in marketing.

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5 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Not sure why Jarvis, but note that it was the golem which weight was commented on.

Wink, wink, nudge, nudge. But at least the golem is not made of pure steel.            (( check movie listings and no spoilers ))

Alas, poor Magpie. I shall still bake him soon. :demonicduck:

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Perhaps, in the case of the "useless" items, items that were created using, what was until tonight, current system of magic, were "blocked" from working.  The creators thought they understood how to create the item in question but found it didn't work.  Perhaps the reason they didn't work is because certain aspects of magic were blocked or not "installed".  Now that magic has changed slightly, so that it can be used by more people, those elements that were blocked or not "installed" are now working. 

Perhaps making permanent magic items, or certain types of magic items is now easier.  I can code an application for connecting to an Oracle database in Python completely correctly, but if the module for connecting to an Oracle database is not installed, my application won't work correctly.

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12 hours ago, Scotty said:
13 hours ago, hkmaly said:

EDIT: Wait, did Dan said hundreds? It's not thousands? YAY new info!

We knew Pandora was hundreds of years old, and that the last system change happened before her last willing reset. That would place the reset anywhere between 150 to 350 years before she met Blaike (giving the chance of the system change happening in the first year of her previous self's life as well as the last year, and of course assuming her previous self went exactly 200 years) Could still say the last change was 999 years ago. It might be debatable that 1299 could still be considered hundreds because there aren't multiple thousands yet, though what about 1999? At what point does hundreds change to thousands?

Here's some new info from Dan:

https://danshive.tumblr.com/post/173294161577/hello-question-in-todays-comic-commentary-you

Apparently the timeframe between the last system change and the breaking of the cycle was unusually long due to humanity focusing more on advancements in technology, maybe the invention of gunpowder which first saw use in 9th century china before spreading into europe 3-4 centuries later. It be interesting if, when the warmongering horde was wiped out after their magic fireballs failed, some alchemists decided to find non-magic alternatives? The only evidence I can think of to back this up is Magus' universe being more magic focused, We've had Pandora claim that anyone with a gun could best a wizard (she also mentions that she could see the need to restrict magic "a thousand years ago")and that was almost proven by Smiley. Also, when the Bulldog Dragon attacked, Arthur stated that the local police could handle it with guns and FBI agents with wands weren't necessary. If Magus' universe had developed gunpowder then the idea of battlemages to fight dragon attacks seems kinda silly if they could just as easily made anti-dragon artillery.

 

Note: I would have had a link to the Arthur comic but the comic site seems to be down now, I had to refresh the page several times to even get the other links, but I guess whatever was affecting the site finally killed it before I could get that last one.

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It's also been implied that the "convince the Muggles that Magic is fictional" policy has been going for quite some time--probably even since the development of reliable photography (i.e. the first "evidence" that doesn't rely upon a claimant's words), or even since the end of the witch-burning era. That may have extended the existing magic system's longevity by 150-250 years.

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18 hours ago, The Old Hack said:
18 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Worse. It may actually go by fixed program with no adaptability, much less ability to learn. The kind of programming which would make golem continue to add water to bathtub even if it's already overflowing.

Kind of like a CEO who majored in marketing.

To be fair, that CEO is probably capable of vast adaptability on topic of what to have for lunch or where to go for vacation. I'm also sure he is able to fill the bathtub correctly even without explicit instructions. He just doesn't show that as part of his job.

13 hours ago, Tuscahoma said:

Perhaps, in the case of the "useless" items, items that were created using, what was until tonight, current system of magic, were "blocked" from working.  The creators thought they understood how to create the item in question but found it didn't work.  Perhaps the reason they didn't work is because certain aspects of magic were blocked or not "installed".  Now that magic has changed slightly, so that it can be used by more people, those elements that were blocked or not "installed" are now working. 

Re-read the description of what was will of magic doing. To quote: Keep certain forms of magic from being possible.Those "systems of magic" WERE consisting of some kinds of magic being blocked.

10 hours ago, Scotty said:

It be interesting if, when the warmongering horde was wiped out after their magic fireballs failed, some alchemists decided to find non-magic alternatives? The only evidence I can think of to back this up is Magus' universe being more magic focused, We've had Pandora claim that anyone with a gun could best a wizard (she also mentions that she could see the need to restrict magic "a thousand years ago")and that was almost proven by Smiley. Also, when the Bulldog Dragon attacked, Arthur stated that the local police could handle it with guns and FBI agents with wands weren't necessary. If Magus' universe had developed gunpowder then the idea of battlemages to fight dragon attacks seems kinda silly if they could just as easily made anti-dragon artillery.

Most likely, dragons in magus universe fly high and fast and are armored and possibly have magic defense. Anti-aircraft artillery already misses very often, with first world war airplanes - which were still using lot of linen in construction - routinely evading it. The battlemages likely have homing fireballs or something at least as effective as guided missiles. Of course, guided missiles need much more than just gunpowder - those needs computers and radar and/or infra.

Conclusion: Magus universe can easily have guns, but not missiles.

1 hour ago, ijuin said:

It's also been implied that the "convince the Muggles that Magic is fictional" policy has been going for quite some time--probably even since the development of reliable photography (i.e. the first "evidence" that doesn't rely upon a claimant's words), or even since the end of the witch-burning era. That may have extended the existing magic system's longevity by 150-250 years.

Yes.

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3 minutes ago, Scotty said:
10 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Conclusion: Magus universe can easily have guns, but not missiles.

We know that Dragons once existed in the main universe, one is seen flying by Pandora when she was 150 years old, so the question is, what happened to them if the new magic system was being kept secret?

Noriko's ancestors, maybe.

We know Dragons existed in main universe, but Magus world might have more of them or they are stronger/more powerful, so it wasn't possible to make them extinct secretly.

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14 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

We know Dragons existed in main universe, but Magus world might have more of them or they are stronger/more powerful, so it wasn't possible to make them extinct secretly.

For all we know, Dragons might have the ability to enter the immaterial plane and that was where the scene took place. They might still be around, only extremely leery of showing themselves due to the possibility of an encounter with a rocket launcher or a Gatling anti-aircraft gun...

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46 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:
1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

We know Dragons existed in main universe, but Magus world might have more of them or they are stronger/more powerful, so it wasn't possible to make them extinct secretly.

For all we know, Dragons might have the ability to enter the immaterial plane and that was where the scene took place. They might still be around, only extremely leery of showing themselves due to the possibility of an encounter with a rocket launcher or a Gatling anti-aircraft gun...

Hmmm, also possible. Or, Dragons might have ability to travel between universes and simply left. Or maybe they all moved to the other half of Earth - actually, that's the most likely explanation. The ones who agreed to follow rules found asylum on other half of Earth and the ones who didn't were killed.

I just explained dragons are unlikely to fear gatling gun. But yes, any dragon entering physical plane would be likely tracked by radar and after not responding on radio (well ... assuming they can't respond) fighters will be send to intercept them and shot them down with air-to-air missiles. Unless they would fly close to terrain, but in such case they would be even more likely to noticed by people.

(In fact, it IS possible that one or several incidents of dragons being shoot down by military happened in EGS main universe and DGB kept them secret.)

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28 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

I just explained dragons are unlikely to fear gatling gun.

I disagree. You are comparing them to WW1 Ack-Ack which was notoriously imprecise and did not have that heavy a weight of fire. Already in WW2, anti-aircraft weaponry fired MUCH faster and more accurately, too. Gatlings fire even faster and with tracers you can practically draw lines in the air. With a firing rate of about 6000 rounds a minute AND HOLY BOLLOCKING HELL IS THAT FAST, YOU READ IT RIGHT, ONE HUNDRED BULLETS GET SENT FLYING EVERY SECOND, anything that isn't ludicrously heavily armoured for a flying object gets ripped absolutely to shreds if the Gatling manages to keep its line on it for any length of time. Compare this to Colonel Gatling's original design which fired a 'mere' 200 rounds a minute, and, well...

Also that is assuming an airborne and evading dragon, which still fits my profile of 'leery of showing itself.' Something openly attacking near the ground (like the bulldog dragon) would get completely cheesed1 by a Gatling.

1 As Sir Terry Pratchett put it, 'cheesed' is like 'creamed', only it takes longer.

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That is, of course, assuming that typical autocannon ammunition is capable of breaching a dragon's scales. It might take something heavier, such as high-explosive 155mm shells, to down a dragon.

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On 4/24/2018 at 9:54 PM, Scotty said:

Kevin being an experimental wand that never worked before now is odd, the theory of him being created using an outdated system after the change doesn't make sense because how would that even be accomplished if someone had lost the ability to cast spells from an older system. I could understand if Kevin was created moments before the system change so that it wasn't that he never worked at all, but never had the chance to work. But then his knowledge seems recent since he apparently knows what robots are to be able to refer to the magpie as a bird-bot. and the golems aura being unrecognizable suggests Kevin is seeing older magic at work, although maybe we'll find that it is an Uryuom based golem after all and it's aura looks like Grace's.

With how the Will of Magic described the minimal changes as none, and many, my guess is that someone had figured out some of the more fundamental system-independent principles underlying magic, used those to design Kevin, and ran into a system-specific block that was part of keeping another system inaccessible.

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3 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

anything that isn't ludicrously heavily armoured for a flying object

1 hour ago, ijuin said:

That is, of course, assuming that typical autocannon ammunition is capable of breaching a dragon's scales. It might take something heavier, such as high-explosive 155mm shells, to down a dragon.

Yes.

3 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

Also that is assuming an airborne and evading dragon, which still fits my profile of 'leery of showing itself.' Something openly attacking near the ground (like the bulldog dragon) would get completely cheesed1 by a Gatling.

Yes, the bulldog dragon will be too close to evade effectively. Also, as I keep repeating, the bulldog dragon is not exactly typical dragon and I expect the dragons on Magus world will be closer to the one behind Pandora ... or like Dragon Nobilis from discworld.

3 minutes ago, Douglas said:

With how the Will of Magic described the minimal changes as none, and many, my guess is that someone had figured out some of the more fundamental system-independent principles underlying magic, used those to design Kevin, and ran into a system-specific block that was part of keeping another system inaccessible.

That might also be what happened. Although I'm not sure if it's actually that much different from my hypothesis.

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