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The Old Hack

Story Wednesday May 9, 2018

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Seems that Magus was ACTUALLY TRAINING fighting when flying, not like Elliot. Well, it's probably mandatory course on his school.

Sooo ... Dan is trying to be vague about Magus's and urteronc's power? How long can he be doing that?

Pity we don't have Dame Tara here. She would show something more flashy already :)

(And Ashley should totally kick something ELSE than Kevin on urteronc. There are plenty of other crates there, aren't they? ... sure, opening or moving them could awake something even worse ...)

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4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

(And Ashley should totally kick something ELSE than Kevin on urteronc. There are plenty of other crates there, aren't they? ... sure, opening or moving them could awake something even worse ...)

We should probably avoid a disaster dominoes scenario.

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How tough is the golem? I am on the fence with this.

Death is not an option. Being shattered into bits is.

4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

(And Ashley should totally kick something ELSE than Kevin on urteronc. There are plenty of other crates there, aren't they? ... sure, opening or moving them could awake something even worse ...)

As noted, a football.

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4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Sooo ... Dan is trying to be vague about Magus's and urteronc's power? How long can he be doing that?

Being specific about power levels without being clunky is much more difficult than being vague about power levels, and being too specific usually only leads to a loss of dramatic tension (if the heroes are clearly the stronger fighters) or the power levels being revealed to not really matter in the end (if the enemies are suggested to be the more powerful ones).

At any rate, I don't think Dan is trying to be deliberately vague, he's just trying to avoid giving the wrong impression of their powers. So to rephrase what he said in the commentary, he doesn't want us to think the Urteronc is weaker than it really is, or that Magus is stronger than he really is.

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8 minutes ago, ChronosCat said:

So to rephrase what he said in the commentary, he doesn't want us to think the Urteronc is weaker than it really is, or that Magus is stronger than he really is.

Well regardless of Dan trying to avoid that, it's clear the the golem isn't at 100% due to the damage it originally took, Magus might be lucky he's only got to deal with 1 arm.

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Just now, Vorlonagent said:

I found myself thinking, "well, this is the sort of threat Magus trained to fight..."

I gotta wonder what actual experience Magus has though, cus aside from Sirleck, this golem is probably Magus' first real fight. So far so good, but will he be able to handle it, or maybe we'll see Ellen step in again?

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Just now, Scotty said:

I gotta wonder what actual experience Magus has though, cus aside from Sirleck, this golem is probably Magus' first real fight. So far so good, but will he be able to handle it, or maybe we'll see Ellen step in again?

I'd like to see Elliot step in.  Dan's kind of used him as the Worf of EGS...he gets beaten up or shut down to show how tough someone else is.

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1 minute ago, Vorlonagent said:

I'd like to see Elliot step in.  Dan's kind of used him as the Worf of EGS...he gets beaten up or shut down to show how tough someone else is.

Elliot's been portrays as the person that fights bullies, he's won his fair share of battles in that regard, but now the fights he's finding himself in are more serious and he's learned that what he knows isn't working as well as he'd thought. I'm pretty  certain he needs to do some more training, especially learning how to fight while flying, before he can be more effective.

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59 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:
2 hours ago, Scotty said:

I gotta wonder what actual experience Magus has though, cus aside from Sirleck, this golem is probably Magus' first real fight. So far so good, but will he be able to handle it, or maybe we'll see Ellen step in again?

I'd like to see Elliot step in.  Dan's kind of used him as the Worf of EGS...he gets beaten up or shut down to show how tough someone else is.

It wasn't that great with Worf already.

And we have better baseline with how powerful Nanase is, I would say. Of course, she's unlikely to appear.

54 minutes ago, Scotty said:

I'm pretty  certain he needs to do some more training, especially learning how to fight while flying, before he can be more effective.

He definitely needs to. I really hope he actually will, as so far he didn't shown any attempts ...

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56 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

He definitely needs to. I really hope he actually will, as so far he didn't shown any attempts ...

It's been a week since he's realized that he can't fight well while flying, even if he did start training with Greg again, 1 or 2 classes likely wouldn't be enough, but there's no indication that he's done so.

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3 hours ago, Scotty said:
4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

He definitely needs to. I really hope he actually will, as so far he didn't shown any attempts ...

It's been a week since he's realized that he can't fight well while flying, even if he did start training with Greg again, 1 or 2 classes likely wouldn't be enough, but there's no indication that he's done so.

Yes, there wasn't enough time for him to get better yet, but there WAS enough time of him starting some training or at least talk about it with others.

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20 hours ago, Scotty said:

Elliot's been portrays as the person that fights bullies, he's won his fair share of battles in that regard, but now the fights he's finding himself in are more serious and he's learned that what he knows isn't working as well as he'd thought. I'm pretty  certain he needs to do some more training, especially learning how to fight while flying, before he can be more effective.

Yeah Elliot needs a little help.  Dan's made the point that he's in a whole different league now.  But Bulldog dragon, Griffin, and recently Magus.  ALL that happens to Elliot as Cheerleadra is he gets overpowered.  I'd like to see him at least lose better...

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2 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

I'd like to see him at least lose better...

Elliot saved quite a few lives by interposing himself between the traffic and the explosive fireball. I call that acquitting himself well.

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3 hours ago, Vorlonagent said:

Yeah Elliot needs a little help.  Dan's made the point that he's in a whole different league now.  But Bulldog dragon, Griffin, and recently Magus.  ALL that happens to Elliot as Cheerleadra is he gets overpowered.  I'd like to see him at least lose better...

 

24 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

Elliot saved quite a few lives by interposing himself between the traffic and the explosive fireball. I call that acquitting himself well.

Also he didn't so much lose against the Griffin as avoided combat with Dame Tara. 

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37 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

Elliot saved quite a few lives by interposing himself between the traffic and the explosive fireball. I call that acquitting himself well.

  • Elliot got one-shotted to show how tough the bulldog dragon was and to give Noah a good entrance
    .
  • Elliot was chased around the mall to show how dangerous the griffin was and to give Ashley a moment of awesome.
     
  • A few weeks back Magus catches a Cheerleadra punch without effort. 

None of these are bad of themselves, just as no single time Worf gets beat up (or the Enterprise-D is nearly destroyed) is itself bad.  It's when the dots are connected and it's happening over and over again.

This last one also sets up a universe mechanic that really bothers me: the idea that you have to be a man to really be a butt-kicker.  Previous evidence suggested that magic was a great equalizer of gender differences and suddenly it isn't.  I don't mind that Magus' world works this way, but the implication is that EGS-Prime's magic works this way too.  Not only does that short-shrift Elliot whose abilities are dominated by female transformation, and Nanase to a lesser degree, it's also potentially sexist. 

 

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23 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

This last one also sets up a universe mechanic that really bothers me: the idea that you have to be a man to really be a butt-kicker.  Previous evidence suggested that magic was a great equalizer of gender differences and suddenly it isn't.  I don't mind that Magus' world works this way, but the implication is that EGS-Prime's magic works this way too.  Not only does that short-shrift Elliot whose abilities are dominated by female transformation, and Nanase to a lesser degree, it's also potentially sexist.

It didn't used to be this way, but yes, recent development, despite the hints that even in Magus's world it may be more general assumption than truth, does get close to that ... and, unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any girl around who could arrive, save day and prove to magus that girls are stronger. Unless Ellen herself got overpowered more than we expect.

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The thing is, Magus' belief on the matter is simply not a matter of science. It wouldn't matter if the top 100 battlemages in his universe were all female, he could still assert "they'd be even more powerful if they'd been, and trained as, male 99% of the time" and there would be no way to prove him wrong.

(And the same claim with the sexes reversed would also not be disprovable.)

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23 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

Elliot got one-shotted to show how tough the bulldog dragon was and to give Noah a good entrance

Please note that Noah couldn't hurt the dragon either. If this was meant to show how tough Noah was, it failed. It was Greg and Grace who ended up saving the day.

24 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

Elliot was chased around the mall to show how dangerous the griffin was and to give Ashley a moment of awesome.

Elliot knew she couldn't handle an opponent skilled at flying fighting and quite sensibly chose evasion. This is also known as intelligence.

It is also noteworthy that neither of these two situations were fights as such. They were attempted murder -- aimed at Elliot. Colonel Sanders very carefully chose opposition that Elliot would not be able to handle. In both cases outside interference saved his life.

28 minutes ago, Vorlonagent said:

A few weeks back Magus catches a Cheerleadra punch without effort. 

This one?

I see what you mean and I get how it could be understood that way. I just happen to think it is less serious than you believe. The Worf Effect came from a show where you had fights nearly every goldarn episode and where Starfleet Security, supposedly trained elite, got made laughingstocks of. EGS is a character driven dramedy and we have, what, one fight a year at most if even that much?

And as to that, how often are EGS fights won based on raw power? Let me see. Damien self-destructed because he decided he couldn't live with not being a god. Ellen megazapped Vlad -- that might count, only Damien was already dead so there was no further reason to fight. Elliot beat up bullies, but mostly in flashbacks. Though he did squash the Bloodgrem's skull a little. Nanase ultimately talked Abraham down. The first fire elemental admittedly got kicked into the river, which did for it. As to Not-Tengu, once again Nanase and Ellen beat it with brainpower. The second fire elemental attack and the bulldog dragon got ended by superior power, but again applied with careful thought rather than just have Grace kill poor Dex. Dame Tara, as demonstrated, got first outmaneuvered and then talked down. The spider vampire got outgriffoned, it has to be said. The big abomination fight... Susan killed an abomination and outwitted another. Raven killed a couple through skill and experience. Pandora's finishing move can safely be said to have been raw power. As to Sirleck, he didn't as much get outfought as outright executed by Magus.

About half of all EGS fights are ended or even averted through intelligence and/or intelligent application of available power. And there is less than one fight a year. I can see what you mean, I just don't think it is a huge problem yet myself.

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22 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:
1 hour ago, Vorlonagent said:

Elliot got one-shotted to show how tough the bulldog dragon was and to give Noah a good entrance

Please note that Noah couldn't hurt the dragon either. If this was meant to show how tough Noah was, it failed. It was Greg and Grace who ended up saving the day.

Noah killed the dragon. Sure, it didn't STAYED dead but it was more than what Elliot done. And Greg and Grace didn't fought the dragon at all.

26 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

I just happen to think it is less serious than you believe. The Worf Effect came from a show where you had fights nearly every goldarn episode and where Starfleet Security, supposedly trained elite, got made laughingstocks of.

26 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

About half of all EGS fights are ended or even averted through intelligence and/or intelligent application of available power. And there is less than one fight a year. I can see what you mean, I just don't think it is a huge problem yet myself.

It's not a huge problem. It is a problem, however. And having just one fight a year won't help when every fight is problematic - like, it will help the comics, but not to the fights.

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13 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Noah killed the dragon. Sure, it didn't STAYED dead but it was more than what Elliot done. And Greg and Grace didn't fought the dragon at all.

Grace remembered Tedd saying that summoned creatures would go away if the summoner is rendered unconscious, Noah also realized that the only way to get rid of the dragon would be to take out the summoner, it just so happened that Grace was closer. Whether or not Noah could get through the flame barrier around Dex is another question though, Noah might have some ranged attack or a sleep spell or something that could have done it, we don't know though.

Still Justin and Noah didn't know where the dragon came from until Elliot regained consciousness so the only thing Noah could have done was keep the dragon occupied until possible help arrived or, as the case was, he got information about where the summoner was.

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33 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

Please note that Noah couldn't hurt the dragon either. If this was meant to show how tough Noah was, it failed. It was Greg and Grace who ended up saving the day.

Elliot knew she couldn't handle an opponent skilled at flying fighting and quite sensibly chose evasion. This is also known as intelligence.

It is also noteworthy that neither of these two situations were fights as such. They were attempted murder -- aimed at Elliot. Colonel Sanders very carefully chose opposition that Elliot would not be able to handle. In both cases outside interference saved his life.

This one?

This one, actually.

My complaint is that Elliot has only been put in unwinnable situations for a long time now.   Voltaire isn't trying to kill him and he's still completely overpowered and marginalized.

51 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

I see what you mean and I get how it could be understood that way. I just happen to think it is less serious than you believe. The Worf Effect came from a show where you had fights nearly every goldarn episode and where Starfleet Security, supposedly trained elite, got made laughingstocks of. EGS is a character driven dramedy and we have, what, one fight a year at most if even that much?

And as to that, how often are EGS fights won based on raw power? Let me see. Damien self-destructed because he decided he couldn't live with not being a god. Ellen megazapped Vlad -- that might count, only Damien was already dead so there was no further reason to fight. Elliot beat up bullies, but mostly in flashbacks. Though he did squash the Bloodgrem's skull a little. Nanase ultimately talked Abraham down. The first fire elemental admittedly got kicked into the river, which did for it. As to Not-Tengu, once again Nanase and Ellen beat it with brainpower. The second fire elemental attack and the bulldog dragon got ended by superior power, but again applied with careful thought rather than just have Grace kill poor Dex. Dame Tara, as demonstrated, got first outmaneuvered and then talked down. The spider vampire got outgriffoned, it has to be said. The big abomination fight... Susan killed an abomination and outwitted another. Raven killed a couple through skill and experience. Pandora's finishing move can safely be said to have been raw power. As to Sirleck, he didn't as much get outfought as outright executed by Magus.

About half of all EGS fights are ended or even averted through intelligence and/or intelligent application of available power. And there is less than one fight a year. I can see what you mean, I just don't think it is a huge problem yet myself.

Maybe a better way of putting it is Elliot takes a back seat even when he's center stage.  Against the bulldog dragon he's just the damsel in distress.  With Dame Tara, it's Ashley that gets the de-conflict ball rolling as it were.   Elliot is again helpless and in need of saving.  Current story, Elliot's contribution is a Cheerleadra transformation that was used to tell us how weak he was.

yes confrontations in EGS are rare, which is what underlines the problem for me.Elliot doesn't get many chances to shine and each time he gets sat on by the GM to give the spotlight to someone else.

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29 minutes ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Magus vs Urteronc?

I misplaced my score card.

Are we rooting for or against Magus at this point?

We are rooting for "Magus wins but is too tired to cast anything else", obviously.

But even if we don't get this ideal result, well ... Magus can be argued with and in worst case, Tedd can change Ellen back. The golem doesn't speak english and Tedd doesn't have resurrection or raise dead spell yet ...

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