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The Old Hack

Story Friday May 18, 2018

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1 hour ago, Scotty said:
1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

First, that's not exactly the same (I suppose Magus moved his hand as fast as Elliot to catch him, so the velocity difference was twice as big), second, yes that would probably hurt too but it would be much more satisfying.

So, in other words, Magus only hurt Elliot's pride by stopping that punch.

Definitely not what I was saying.

... although the pride hurt more than the hand, that's true.

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On 5/18/2018 at 1:36 PM, The Old Hack said:

My own impression is this: that Ellen is still tremendously conflicted about her own creation because it was such a traumatic experience. She feels irrationally angry about it, which I fully understand. She had very conflicting feelings even about Tedd whom she until recently -- to be exact, this page -- held responsible for her creation because of his careless use of the TG gun and for his part in getting Elliot to the diamond. Now she has learned that Magus used Tedd, Elliot and her creation simply as tools to set himself free from his prison dimension. Acts born from desperation, yes -- but even understanding that, Ellen would still be furious, knowing as she now does that the sole reason for her existence is that she was intended as a one-shot zap device to give Magus the means of possessing Elliot. Granted, she has found meaning of her own since, but I really doubt that will calm her very much.

In short, she badly wants to give Magus a piece of her mind, and I do not really blame her.

Ah yes Ellen, the only person who resents the fact that they exist.

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9 minutes ago, animalia said:

Ah yes Ellen, the only person who resents the fact that they exist.

I disagree. She resents the massive trauma she suffered when she came into existence. There is a difference.

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Personally I wouldn’t care less about Magus and would just be happy about the fact that I have a chance at life.

And this is coming from the perspective of someone who is adopted. My personal feelings towards my adopted family are so strong that I don’t want to seek out my biological family in part because I feel like it would be a betrayal of my adopted family, even though I know my adopted family wouldn’t look at it that way.

 

That being said I am different individuals in the same situation react to it differently.

 I was also born and conceived post Roe V. Wade so I am quite aware of the fact that my biological mother could have chosen to have had an abortion rather than but me up for adoption.

 

Anyways I bring this all up not to try to start a debate or anything but to try and show the ways in which I can relate to Ellen and the ways in which I fundamentally differ.

 I bring up that last part because it makes me realize how greatful I am for the gift of life. And why I resonate so much with the old cliche of “where there’s life there’s hope”

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I also bring it up because it’s shows me how potentially fragile my life was, something I like to think I can relate to Ellen with, even if I don’t have the shared trauma as the knowledge of that fact has shaped me, and has in many ways given me a “there but for the grace of god go I” mindset.

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7 hours ago, animalia said:

Ah yes Ellen, the only person who resents the fact that they exist.

Only? Did you ever heard about "emo"? :)

7 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

I disagree. She resents the massive trauma she suffered when she came into existence. There is a difference.

On emotional level, definitely. Logically, I don't see any way it could be less traumatic ... ok, except the option of Magus somehow explaining everything to Elliot despite not being able to talk to him and Elliot going along with the plan.

... wait. First, Ellen was angry at Tedd, who didn't deserved it.

Now, Ellen is angry at Magus, who sort of does deserve it but didn't had any other option which would include her existence.

However, after she will talk it over with Magus, she may become angry at Pandora, who TOTALLY deserves it. SHE did had the option of telling Elliot.

7 hours ago, animalia said:

I also bring it up because it’s shows me how potentially fragile my life was, something I like to think I can relate to Ellen with, even if I don’t have the shared trauma

Actually, most people came on this world with similarly traumatic experience ... but they don't REMEMBER it. Their crying confirms it, however.

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5 hours ago, hkmaly said:

On emotional level, definitely. Logically, I don't see any way it could be less traumatic ...

*scratches head* I admit, I don't quite understand your point here. As I see it, Ellen resents the trauma itself, not just the fact that it happened. It is an entirely instinctual reaction well below the level of rational thought. Are you saying that Ellen would resent Magus less were she compelled to consider how few options he had?

5 hours ago, hkmaly said:

... wait. First, Ellen was angry at Tedd, who didn't deserved it.

This will probably sound weird, but personally I think Ellen is still angry at Tedd. It is just that now she has to deal with the fact that Tedd actually takes pride in her existence and loves her as a person, too. As he said, if what he did were mistakes, those were the best mistakes he ever made. So now she has to mix in intense anger and frustration with that love, pride and respect, and so Tedd in Ellen's own words 'confuses the Hell out of her.'

5 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Now, Ellen is angry at Magus, who sort of does deserve it but didn't had any other option which would include her existence.

Again, Ellen's outrage is irrational. And frankly, Magus' attitude towards Ellen is not very likely to mitigate it. Tedd at least views her with love and pride. Magus... patronisingly wants to 'fix' her in the firm belief that he knows what is best for her. That he is willing to admit that he might be wrong will not help his case as Ellen is still likely to see him as acting like an ass on top of everything else. I hate to say this, but Magus is acting like pure early Elliot and being a complete idiot relationship-wise. I suspect that will bite him just as hard on the arse as it did Elliot, if not harder.

5 hours ago, hkmaly said:

However, after she will talk it over with Magus, she may become angry at Pandora, who TOTALLY deserves it. SHE did had the option of telling Elliot.

...and who is also dead now. *scratches head* She is a new person now. She may still have the emotional connections if she succeeded in bringing them with her, but we still do not know what that is going to mean. Of course, all that is only likely to frustrate and anger Ellen even more. :doom:

5 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Actually, most people came on this world with similarly traumatic experience ... but they don't REMEMBER it. Their crying confirms it, however.

Hm. Maybe the event is similar but I suspect it is not the same. This was at a level of intellectual and emotional complexity well past the ability of a newborn infant to process. What is more, the stress lasted longer due to the misconception that she had at best only a month to live. Actually it may have lasted even longer as even after she found out that she had a place in the world after all, she had to cope with the fact that the place that 'should' have been hers belonged to someone else by right and that she would never have it back -- and in fact had never had it in the first place. So, half a day of massive and intense stress, then months or more of reduced but still traumatic stress... no, I do not think the analogy quite works even though I do see your point.

At the very least and as you pointed out, babies do not form detailed memories that could allow them to potentially feel the kind of resentment Ellen does. :icon_eek:

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2 minutes ago, animalia said:

 Can I ask what you thought about my other two post please? You are one person whose thoughts I always like to hear.

Certainly :)

22 hours ago, animalia said:

Personally I wouldn’t care less about Magus and would just be happy about the fact that I have a chance at life.

And this is coming from the perspective of someone who is adopted. My personal feelings towards my adopted family are so strong that I don’t want to seek out my biological family in part because I feel like it would be a betrayal of my adopted family, even though I know my adopted family wouldn’t look at it that way.

And that perspective is fully valid. As you yourself say, it differs for everyone. Certainly it is worth noting that Ellen is a fictional character and that your very real lived experience obviously carries a great deal of weight.

 

22 hours ago, animalia said:

Anyways I bring this all up not to try to start a debate or anything but to try and show the ways in which I can relate to Ellen and the ways in which I fundamentally differ.

 I bring up that last part because it makes me realize how greatful I am for the gift of life. And why I resonate so much with the old cliche of “where there’s life there’s hope”

And I am very glad that you feel that way. It is a sad fact of life that not everyone appreciate its gift equally, unfortunately. And not all do so merely from being 'emo', as it has somewhat dismissively been phrased. There are people who suffer from profound mental illness or have lived through so severe trauma that life seems more burden than gift to them.

I myself happen to have some experience in that direction. I suffer from clinical depression and a rather severe anxiety disorder. These days I have medication that allows me to live much closer to a normal existence but earlier in my life both my conditions remained undiagnosed and thus obviously untreated as well. I say this in order to explain that I have personally experienced such an intense state of depression and anxiety that I quite literally no longer really cared whether I lived or died, and as a result very nearly did get killed. This event did convince me to finally seek out psychiatric aid (something I had avoided for years then due to very bad earlier experiences with the system), something my one-day-to-be-wife had repeatedly urged me to do.

My point with this is that I fully understand being in a state where one does not really appreciate the gift of life, and the anger one may experience during its aftermath. Suffice it to say that I fully appreciate Ellen's point of view and would happily hold her coat while she explained it to Magus.

22 hours ago, animalia said:

I also bring it up because it’s shows me how potentially fragile my life was, something I like to think I can relate to Ellen with, even if I don’t have the shared trauma as the knowledge of that fact has shaped me, and has in many ways given me a “there but for the grace of god go I” mindset.

I think I understand. I can relate to that, too. In fact, I will say this: having been so close to death, I now hold a much greater appreciation for the life I have.

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15 hours ago, The Old Hack said:
21 hours ago, hkmaly said:

On emotional level, definitely. Logically, I don't see any way it could be less traumatic ...

*scratches head* I admit, I don't quite understand your point here. As I see it, Ellen resents the trauma itself, not just the fact that it happened. It is an entirely instinctual reaction well below the level of rational thought. Are you saying that Ellen would resent Magus less were she compelled to consider how few options he had?

Considering how hard is to "fix" your emotion with logic, probably not much less, but more confused, as with Tedd ... well, probably not THAT much ...

Compare with how Sarah dealt with being scared by Jerry. "I didn't and she's fine" - "I'm still upset". She has no LOGICAL reason to be upset, and based on her not denying it she's perfectly aware of that. And still upset.

15 hours ago, The Old Hack said:
21 hours ago, hkmaly said:

However, after she will talk it over with Magus, she may become angry at Pandora, who TOTALLY deserves it. SHE did had the option of telling Elliot.

...and who is also dead now. *scratches head* She is a new person now. She may still have the emotional connections if she succeeded in bringing them with her, but we still do not know what that is going to mean. Of course, all that is only likely to frustrate and anger Ellen even more. :doom:

Yes ... she may not be entirely new person, but the plan to help magus was likely heavily influenced by how long she was without reset ... IF she's going to remember that, she will probably apologize. Which MIGHT help. At least little.

15 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

This was at a level of intellectual and emotional complexity well past the ability of a newborn infant to process.

But in both cases, its based on loss of something you consider completely granted and is base of your life.

15 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

... no, I do not think the analogy quite works even though I do see your point.

It's not close analogy but I think I saw more stretched ones.

15 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

At the very least and as you pointed out, babies do not form detailed memories that could allow them to potentially feel the kind of resentment Ellen does. :icon_eek:

This is obviously the most important point. Even people with hyperthymesia / eidetic memory doesn't seem to complain about that event, so it must be very hard to remember ... and therefore unable to provide any long-term trauma.

Of course, Leia claims to remember her mother who died when giving birth to her, but she's force-sensitive and also George Lucas is known for making mistakes and then denying it.

6 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

And not all do so merely from being 'emo', as it has somewhat dismissively been phrased.

Note that I wasn't suggesting being 'emo' is ONLY reason why someone might resents the fact that they exist. Just one of very hard to miss examples.

6 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

and would happily hold her coat while she explained it to Magus.

I still think it would be better to hold HIS coat. With hands still partially inside, I mean.

... wait, no. That would make easier for her to explain it but would be worse long-term.

Ok. I recommend moment of surprise. Or more training.

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6 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Considering how hard is to "fix" your emotion with logic, probably not much less, but more confused, as with Tedd ... well, probably not THAT much ...

Compare with how Sarah dealt with being scared by Jerry. "I didn't and she's fine" - "I'm still upset". She has no LOGICAL reason to be upset, and based on her not denying it she's perfectly aware of that. And still upset.

Ah! I think I get what you mean now. Thank you.

7 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Yes ... she may not be entirely new person, but the plan to help magus was likely heavily influenced by how long she was without reset ... IF she's going to remember that, she will probably apologize. Which MIGHT help. At least little.

Also, if she is going to appear in her Box little girl form, it will be that much harder to want to hurt her. It is so unfair. You feel like such a heel if you try to make yourself hit something that looks like a cute little girl. O.O

No, if there is any conflict here to really worry about, it is Magus. He wants revenge much more badly and I am not sure he will be easily satisfied.

10 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

It's not close analogy but I think I saw more stretched ones.

Probably. Let's allow it to pass. It is not that important.

12 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

This is obviously the most important point. Even people with hyperthymesia / eidetic memory doesn't seem to complain about that event, so it must be very hard to remember ... and therefore unable to provide any long-term trauma.

I think it is because at that state the brain's neurons are so young that they still have no experience in forming memories. The brain needs practice at everything. And gets better at retaining things the more use it sees.

14 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Of course, Leia claims to remember her mother who died when giving birth to her, but she's force-sensitive and also George Lucas is known for making mistakes and then denying it.

Occasionally Lucas acted like a complete hack. I of all people cannot bring myself to condemn him for that.

15 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Note that I wasn't suggesting being 'emo' is ONLY reason why someone might resents the fact that they exist. Just one of very hard to miss examples.

Ah, I see. Only please be careful about that. 'Emo' has been used so often in a negative context that it comes across as an insult.

16 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Ok. I recommend moment of surprise. Or more training.

One of each, please. :danshiftyeyes:

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2 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

Also, if she is going to appear in her Box little girl form, it will be that much harder to want to hurt her. It is so unfair. You feel like such a heel if you try to make yourself hit something that looks like a cute little girl. O.O

I though women are more resistant to this. Although it's questionable if that would apply to Ellen ...

2 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

No, if there is any conflict here to really worry about, it is Magus. He wants revenge much more badly and I am not sure he will be easily satisfied.

Yes. Also, he has more experience with her shapeshifting. AND possibly specific training for not being influenced by shapeshifters looking cute, if dragons can shapeshift OR are not only creature he is trained to fight with ...

2 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

I think it is because at that state the brain's neurons are so young that they still have no experience in forming memories. The brain needs practice at everything. And gets better at retaining things the more use it sees.

Ok this is safe to speculate about as neurosurgeons don't know either :)

That would be one part. Other part would be that the brain at that point is not much experienced in forming EMOTIONS, and the emotion stored as part of memory is more important than any emotion you may feel when replaying that memory.

 

 

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4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Ok this is safe to speculate about as neurosurgeons don't know either :)

I read an amazing news story in the Washington Post about a device that can interprete brain waves so precisely that it will allow a paralysed person to direct a robot arm so that they can use it to pour coffee for themselves and drink it. They still experience spillage but that might be due to needing more practice rather than because of design flaws in the arm. I wonder if this is a case of technology where the designers are like, "We know bugger all about how this actually works, but it works so I guess we just have to keep working at the math to prove it."

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37 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:
4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Ok this is safe to speculate about as neurosurgeons don't know either :)

I read an amazing news story in the Washington Post about a device that can interprete brain waves so precisely that it will allow a paralysed person to direct a robot arm so that they can use it to pour coffee for themselves and drink it. They still experience spillage but that might be due to needing more practice rather than because of design flaws in the arm. I wonder if this is a case of technology where the designers are like, "We know bugger all about how this actually works, but it works so I guess we just have to keep working at the math to prove it."

Controlling muscles is EASY compared to stuff like memories and emotions. (Complex emotions ; basic stuff like being happy or sad can be measured chemically.)

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24 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Controlling muscles is EASY compared to stuff like memories and emotions. (Complex emotions ; basic stuff like being happy or sad can be measured chemically.)

Well... just remember that 'compared to.' I am not sure it is actually easy per se. :icon_eek:

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2 hours ago, The Old Hack said:
3 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Controlling muscles is EASY compared to stuff like memories and emotions. (Complex emotions ; basic stuff like being happy or sad can be measured chemically.)

Well... just remember that 'compared to.' I am not sure it is actually easy per se. :icon_eek:

Yes :) Especially if you, for some reason, don't want to just put few dozens metal electrodes through testing subject skull. :)

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On 5/17/2018 at 9:33 PM, Stature said:

You are Ellen, dummy. And a box would go VWM.

Yeah! I want color!

I seem to recall that the official rendition of the sound is "VWORP", due to the handbrake being left on . . .

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2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Yes :) Especially if you, for some reason, don't want to just put few dozens metal electrodes through testing subject skull. :)

Of course, some people don't consider that to be all that much of a problem. :icon_eek:

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14 hours ago, The Old Hack said:
16 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Yes :) Especially if you, for some reason, don't want to just put few dozens metal electrodes through testing subject skull. :)

Of course, some people don't consider that to be all that much of a problem. :icon_eek:

Some people and most non-people. I mean, wasn't it the castle's idea to drill the holes?

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3 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Some people and most non-people. I mean, wasn't it the castle's idea to drill the holes?

Well... sort of. The Heterodyne who first got the idea of making the Castle sentient (Faustus Heterodyne, I think) also shared his charming personality with it. I am not sure but I think the connecting apparatus was his design.

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