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      Welcome!   03/05/2016

      Welcome, everyone, to the new 910CMX Community Forums. I'm still working on getting them running, so things may change.  If you're a 910 Comic creator and need your forum recreated, let me know and I'll get on it right away.  I'll do my best to make this new place as fun as the last one!
Pharaoh RutinTutin

Story Monday May 28, 2018

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4 minutes ago, Scotty said:
9 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

It will be more practical to train people to resist FV5 ... or blonde beam if you don't want the additional fun. The analysing wand is probably TOO HARD to resist.

Maybe, but being able to resist the wand, and possibly all magic, might be what Arthur would like, because then any potential criminals and law enforcment would still be relying on convential methods since using magic would most often end in a stalemate.

I don't think so ... Arthur would certainly prefer if DGB would still be able to use magic.

More importantly, their priority is to find easy way to raise enchantment resistance of almost ALL people, WITHOUT awakening them. I think that resisting the wand will be impossible for most people even after awakening.

The danger is not about criminals using magic - that will happen anyway, even magic which is not cast on other people is very useful. I think the danger is about someone enchanting large amount of people for long time or even indefinitely. Sure, Edward was talking about wands with homing fireballs, but those are not really bigger danger than someone using assault gun (as Pandora mentioned). But can you imagine someone like not-Tengu using his power to win elections? Or worse, build an army?

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32 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

But can you imagine someone like not-Tengu using his power to win elections? Or worse, build an army?

I'm not sure the latter is necessarily worse. I can think of at least one case of a guy who won an election and used that to take control of a country that built one of the finest armies in the world...

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5 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:
39 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

But can you imagine someone like not-Tengu using his power to win elections? Or worse, build an army?

I'm not sure the latter is necessarily worse. I can think of at least one case of a guy who won an election and used that to take control of a country that built one of the finest armies in the world...

It wasn't meant as exclusive or :) ... although army controlled by being enchanted is probably worse than army controlled by normal means like by orders.

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Just now, hkmaly said:

It wasn't meant as exclusive or :) ... although army controlled by being enchanted is probably worse than army controlled by normal means like by orders.

Several members of my family would not be in a position to tell the difference. They died in the most gruesome way imaginable in places full of indescribable human suffering. All of it inflicted by perfectly ordinary other humans, many of which did indeed plead that they were merely following orders when put on trial.

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1 minute ago, The Old Hack said:
5 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

It wasn't meant as exclusive or :) ... although army controlled by being enchanted is probably worse than army controlled by normal means like by orders.

Several members of my family would not be in a position to tell the difference. They died in the most gruesome way imaginable in places full of indescribable human suffering. All of it inflicted by perfectly ordinary other humans, many of which did indeed plead that they were merely following orders when put on trial.

While it's indeed possible enchanted army wouldn't be able to kill people in more gruesome way, it might be able to kill MORE people that way.

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42 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

While it's indeed possible enchanted army wouldn't be able to kill people in more gruesome way, it might be able to kill MORE people that way.

The army in question killed millions of people in its extermination camps alone, for no crime other than being what they were. At this point, I feel that doing some sort of Genocide Olympics to determine which is worse is not only superfluous but also in rather poor taste.

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Unfortunately for everyone except The Leader, enchanted/mind-controlled soldiers would be unable to have any mercy or conscience that might let some of them bend or break such cruel orders.

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4 hours ago, ijuin said:

Unfortunately for everyone except The Leader, enchanted/mind-controlled soldiers would be unable to have any mercy or conscience that might let some of them bend or break such cruel orders.

Conversely, they might also lack the impetus and individualism that made the historical example so terrifyingly effective in and off the battlefield. Yes, I know it sounds ironic. But the soldiers of the Wehrmacht were allowed a high amount of individual initiative to carry out their assigned tasks and this was part of what allowed them to enact such crushing defeat on so many of their enemies. It was precisely because they acted of their own free will they could be so effective. They were taught unit pride, reliance on each other and not only what to do but why they were supposed to do it.

In comparison, many French troops were mere browbeaten conscripts with little more training than which way to point a rifle and how to use a shovel. They might possess national pride but were allowed no pride of their own. Often they would follow meaningless and stupid orders because they saw no alternative nor even any point to trying to think of one.Their abysmal morale contributed greatly to the utter breakdown that followed the diversionary assault on the Maginot line.

Yes, diversionary. It wasn't actually supposed to succeed but it did. The French troops were that demoralised when the attack came. I am actually trying to imagine the bafflement in OKW when that happened.

"Herr General, we have taken objectives A, B and C. We control the entirety of the Maginot line along this stretch and forces north and south of us are rapidly retreating. Now what?"
"...errr. Please hold."
*whisper* "Get hold of someone higher up. We've broken through and the French are routing and we have NO idea what to do next."
"...you have GOTTA be kidding me."

My point is, mind controlled troops with no personal initiative are stupid. They will cheerfully follow orders even when the orders make no sense because the sitiation has completely changed. They will march into death traps, stupidly hold positions that are under no threat whatsoever or let vital objectives fall to the enemy because they were not told to defend them. An army with only one directing mind will ultimately bog down and suffer the same destruction that has befallen every military ever commanded by power mad narcissists too distrustful to delegate.

Obviously, the Wehrmacht eventually suffered the same fate because it suffered from the same kind of monomania on the political and strategic level that it had avoided on the tactical level. "Gröfaz" (Grösster Feldherr aller Zeiten, or Greatest Conqueror of all Time) ultimately lacked the scope he thought he had.

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So, Ellen thought about Magus having access to millions, but she didn't say anything aloud.   Does that mean she hasn't told anyone else?  Or just doesn't want to tell Arthur Arthur?  Or was she just trying to be polite not pointing out the flaw in Arthur's optimism?

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9 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

My point is, mind controlled troops with no personal initiative are stupid. They will cheerfully follow orders even when the orders make no sense because the sitiation has completely changed. They will march into death traps, stupidly hold positions that are under no threat whatsoever or let vital objectives fall to the enemy because they were not told to defend them. An army with only one directing mind will ultimately bog down and suffer the same destruction that has befallen every military ever commanded by power mad narcissists too distrustful to delegate.

This is only true if it's really full mind control. There are other options, although what Not-Tengu was doing definitely didn't looked like something allowing personal initiative. And there is big advantage in suppressing the self-preservation. Kamikaze proved ineffective because it required human with long and therefore costly training, however what if you can force pilot knowledge into random person by enchantment, along with that tradition of death instead of defeat, capture and shame which was part of Japanese culture but is pretty rare otherwise?

However, you may be right that even with magic nothing more effective than second world war germany can be build. Still, the second world war germany was unique opportunity, basically build on top of results of first world war ; the ability to create something possibly not as effective, but quickly without the dozens of year of preparation is still dangerous.

9 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

Obviously, the Wehrmacht eventually suffered the same fate because it suffered from the same kind of monomania on the political and strategic level that it had avoided on the tactical level. "Gröfaz" (Grösster Feldherr aller Zeiten, or Greatest Conqueror of all Time) ultimately lacked the scope he thought he had.

I also suspect that German command went more strict with time, while the experience of field commanders went down due to the experienced ones being dead. Meanwhile, allied commanders were better than French ones from start of war.

1 hour ago, CritterKeeper said:

So, Ellen thought about Magus having access to millions, but she didn't say anything aloud.   Does that mean she hasn't told anyone else?  Or just doesn't want to tell Arthur Arthur?  Or was she just trying to be polite not pointing out the flaw in Arthur's optimism?

She definitely didn't told anyone else YET.

But the question remains: Did she not told because she doesn't want Arthur to know? Because of politeness like you suggested? Because she doesn't want to admit she remembers something from Sirleck? Or because she assumes Arthur knows and it's not important enough to mention it? Or ... does she want to use that information to make her own trap for Magus?

Another question is if that information would really help Arthur. He really may already know, or realize it when investigating Sirleck.

 

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5 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

So, Ellen thought about Magus having access to millions, but she didn't say anything aloud.   Does that mean she hasn't told anyone else?  Or just doesn't want to tell Arthur Arthur?  Or was she just trying to be polite not pointing out the flaw in Arthur's optimism?

By showing us Ellen's thoughts at Arthur's comments, Dan was showing us that he hasn't forgotten about Sirleck's wealth transfer plans, the fact that magus was aware of at least some of those plans, and that Ellen's contact with Sirleck made her aware of these plans.

Ellen already interrupted Arthur once to contact Nanase.  I'm guessing that her silence right now is largely due to politeness, and realizing that the sooner Arthur gets done talking, the sooner they can go home. After all, Arthur was the one who trained Edward.  Ellen does not want him to start pulling out the charts.

I hope that, if Arthur does not mention Sirleck's money before he ends the briefing, Ellen will say something.

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5 hours ago, hkmaly said:

However, you may be right that even with magic nothing more effective than second world war germany can be build. Still, the second world war germany was unique opportunity, basically build on top of results of first world war ; the ability to create something possibly not as effective, but quickly without the dozens of year of preparation is still dangerous.

Certainly. I merely wished to state that even ordinary nonmagical propaganda can be terrifyingly effective when it comes to controlling and manipulating people. And that humans are capable of great evil without magic to force them.

5 hours ago, hkmaly said:

I also suspect that German command went more strict with time, while the experience of field commanders went down due to the experienced ones being dead. Meanwhile, allied commanders were better than French ones from start of war.

Very much true. It also did not help that the Great Leader grew more and more controlling and unreasonable as the war started to turn against him.

(I should also be fair to France here. They did have some really good units of which no ill could be spoken. Just not enough of them.)

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2 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

I hope that, if Arthur does not mention Sirleck's money before he ends the briefing, Ellen will say something.

A couple points of possible relevance:

1) Sirleck intended to pass his fortune on to a future victim of his possession.

2) Ellen was the last of his victims, and there will never be another.

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6 minutes ago, Don Edwards said:
2 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

I hope that, if Arthur does not mention Sirleck's money before he ends the briefing, Ellen will say something.

A couple points of possible relevance:

1) Sirleck intended to pass his fortune on to a future victim of his possession.

2) Ellen was the last of his victims, and there will never be another.

... are you implying Ellen thinks it's HER money now?

Ellen was always supposed to be temporary host who won't even see the money. But Dunkels also aren't exactly rich and I can see her wanting some compensation ...

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...Especially since Ellen's last words to Magus were "you owe me"--she might indeed think that she is entitled to some compensation.

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7 hours ago, hkmaly said:

I also suspect that German command went more strict with time, while the experience of field commanders went down due to the experienced ones being dead. Meanwhile, allied commanders were better than French ones from start of war.

It also didn't help that Hitler started micro-managing his generals as the war went on, and he wasn't as good at it as they were:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GK419Nlp8eU

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8 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

Very much true. It also did not help that the Great Leader grew more and more controlling and unreasonable as the war started to turn against him.

 

6 hours ago, ssokolow said:

It also didn't help that Hitler started micro-managing his generals as the war went on, and he wasn't as good at it as they were:

Indeed.

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19 hours ago, ssokolow said:

It also didn't help that Hitler started micro-managing his generals as the war went on, and he wasn't as good at it as they were:

 

13 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

Indeed.

That depends on your point of view.  I would hate to think what would have happened if Herr Hitler let the Generals run the army.

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1 hour ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:
21 hours ago, ssokolow said:

It also didn't help that Hitler started micro-managing his generals as the war went on, and he wasn't as good at it as they were:

14 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

Indeed.

That depends on your point of view.  I would hate to think what would have happened if Herr Hitler let the Generals run the army.

No, the point of view is given: he wasn't as good in leading the war because the army effectiveness went down.

Now, obviously, there are lot of people here who are GLAD that Hitler was bad in leading army. Doesn't change the fact he was bad. Only way he might be good would be if he DELIBERATELY sabotaged his army, and I don't think anyone suspect him of that.

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2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Only way he might be good would be if he DELIBERATELY sabotaged his army, and I don't think anyone suspect him of that.

Actually Sebastian Haffner was convinced that after Hitler realised that Germany had probably lost the war, he did just that in order to increase casualties on both sides and to ensure that Germany was left a smoking ruin upon the war's end. He wanted to punish Germany for being insufficient to sate his ambition and hoped it would be forever ruined as a nation after his death.

Though even if that is true, that still doesn't in any way at all make him 'good.'

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On 5/30/2018 at 11:59 PM, ssokolow said:

It also didn't help that Hitler started micro-managing his generals as the war went on, and he wasn't as good at it as they were:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GK419Nlp8eU

I am told trained fighters hate fighting untrained fighters because you never know what they're going to do.  I tend to think Hitler's successes were partly by him being untrained.  But as he came to believe his own press and as he became more deluded he became less conversant with his limits or the limits of the forces under his command.

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2 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

There's this one story I'm reading where the egotistical multi-billionaire recognized his own weaknesses and deliberately hired a "no-man".

Classic. I remember reading Feynman's autobiography where he among other things described his work at Los Alamos. At one point, to his utter astonishment, he received a private visit from Nobel prize winning physicist Niels Bohr and his son, acting as interpreter. Turned out that Bohr had noticed that where everyone else nodded in awe at every pronunciation from him, this young sprat scowled and seemed to worry at his ideas. So he discussed them with Feynman because Feynman actually argued against them and wanted more proofs.

Or as another book I read put it, "Recognising your own weaknesses and taking steps to correct them is rare. And praiseworthy."

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1 hour ago, The Old Hack said:
4 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

There's this one story I'm reading where the egotistical multi-billionaire recognized his own weaknesses and deliberately hired a "no-man".

Classic. I remember reading Feynman's autobiography where he among other things described his work at Los Alamos. At one point, to his utter astonishment, he received a private visit from Nobel prize winning physicist Niels Bohr and his son, acting as interpreter. Turned out that Bohr had noticed that where everyone else nodded in awe at every pronunciation from him, this young sprat scowled and seemed to worry at his ideas. So he discussed them with Feynman because Feynman actually argued against them and wanted more proofs.

Or as another book I read put it, "Recognising your own weaknesses and taking steps to correct them is rare. And praiseworthy."

Even if you ARE actually so good that everything you say is true and brilliant ... how can you KNOW if everyone is just nodding? You may get away with it in liberal arts, but for real science, as well as strategy, you need someone who will independently check for mistakes. Because even if you never made a mistake, it just means the first you do will be devastating.

... and in nuclear physics, that is even more worrying than in other fields.

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