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partner555

Main Wed June 6 2018

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Hmm. Maybe it has something to do that wooden core that turned out to be a scale from a dragon?

I remember a scene from one of Disney's noble flops, Dragonslayer. Galen, the wizard's apprentice who failed to slay the dragon Vermithrax, sets out again to try. The woman who loves him, Valerian, gathers shed by scales shed by the dragon, makes a shield for him, and gives it to him, saying it might save his life. It does. Galen doesn't slay the dragon or save the princess (not Valerian, a commoner) but he does slay the dragon's young. And the scene when Vermithrax finds her slain children is actually moving.

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What kind of "large animal"?
I want some conclusions, darnitol.  So start jumping.

It seems that Ellen still has some not-quite-resolved issues regarding Tedd.
I'm going to guess that her suspicions will, in a not too distant future storyline, lead to at least one of the following outcomes.

  • Someone will get hurt because she didn't trust Tedd.
  • She will end up saving everyone because she didn't trust Tedd.

 

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8 minutes ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

It seems that Ellen still has some not-quite-resolved issues regarding Tedd.
I'm going to guess that her suspicions will, in a not too distant future storyline, lead to at least one of the following outcomes.

  • Someone will get hurt because she didn't trust Tedd.
  • She will end up saving everyone because she didn't trust Tedd.

 

I thought they resolved the worst of it with One Way Road?

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That's a dragon scale. ... Is Ellen a dragon now?

Also, it seems everyone keeps being wrong about what the "Diamond" was. I wonder what the original purpose of the thing was before Abraham got a hold of it. My guess would be to preserve the scale, either for study, power collection, or both.

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33 minutes ago, Drasvin said:

Also, it seems everyone keeps being wrong about what the "Diamond" was. I wonder what the original purpose of the thing was before Abraham got a hold of it. My guess would be to preserve the scale, either for study, power collection, or both.

I suggested that the crystal was meant so seal whatever held the power inside. though maybe it was meant to harness the scale's power in a more controlled manner?

Whatever animal it was from, the Golem recognized it, so maybe the war between Uryuoms and Humans back then was over that scale, or the animal it came from? I guess if Uryuoms objected to Humans slaughtering dragons(maybe) to take their power, then I can understand why they'd go to war with Humans back then.

So when do we start calling Ellen Dovakiin?

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25 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Whatever animal it was from, the Golem recognized it, so maybe the war between Uryuoms and Humans back then was over that scale, or the animal it came from? I guess if Uryuoms objected to Humans slaughtering dragons(maybe) to take their power, then I can understand why they'd go to war with Humans back then.

I don't think so. Heka was referring specifically to the Uryuom's situation when they assaulted the library. If it was over dragons, he would have said cause.

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12 minutes ago, partner555 said:

I don't think so. Heka was referring specifically to the Uryuom's situation when they assaulted the library. If it was over dragons, he would have said cause.

Heka mentioned being sympathetic to the Uryuom's situation, which could be taken as Heka not being too keen on Human's treatment of dragons either, but if the Uryuoms were going to extremes, like trying to take the power away by any means and included other sources of power like the library, then Heka probably wouldn't be able to sit by and watch.

And also, Dan would have shown us what the core actually was earlier if we were meant to know sooner, but he left that hanging till now, only makes sense that he wouldn't have it mentioned in the golem's flashback.

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52 minutes ago, Scotty said:
1 hour ago, Drasvin said:

Also, it seems everyone keeps being wrong about what the "Diamond" was. I wonder what the original purpose of the thing was before Abraham got a hold of it. My guess would be to preserve the scale, either for study, power collection, or both.

I suggested that the crystal was meant so seal whatever held the power inside. though maybe it was meant to harness the scale's power in a more controlled manner?

Another possibility I thought of is that the crystal might have been the magic energy equivalent of congealed blood that was later shaped into an aesthetically pleasing form by some wizard, which would account for why the crystal's power was similar to the power of the scale.

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

Whatever animal it was from, the Golem recognized it, so maybe the war between Uryuoms and Humans back then was over that scale, or the animal it came from? I guess if Uryuoms objected to Humans slaughtering dragons(maybe) to take their power, then I can understand why they'd go to war with Humans back then.

I don't think the war was started over the scale (or the animal it came from). Once the Golem's memory had been properly jogged, their desire was for humans to have nothing. Seeing the scale in the box could have sparked some degree of recognition of that goal without causing the full recall of events. My guess is that the uryuoms in question were looking to carve out a place to call their own. Just happened that the place they wanted was already occupied. Going from that, the Golem wanted humans to have nothing, because that's the situation their kind was forced to deal with.

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We have a case of the UFO: Unidentified Freaky Object.

Giving Tedd a lab, when a reasonable facsimile is already present.

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9 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

Maybe it isn't from a dragon. It might just be a scale from a bigger fish. :danshiftyeyes:

The only inspiration people should take away from the movie that shall not be named is on how ~not~ to tell stories.

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It's interesting that aside from Ashley's confusion and Ellen's "Yes to those things" Arthur's pronoun usage for Tedd is not being addressed. I wonder if Elliot and Ellen will explain matters in more detail to Arthur (and Ashley) before the meeting's over, or if Arthur will be left having to figure it out for himself?

Of course, Elliot and Ellen are in a bit of a hard place regarding Tedd's gender, as he's not really "out" outside his circle of friends, but Arthur already knows about Tedd's female form. Their options are pretty much lie to Arthur and make him think Tedd assumes female form for frivolous or perverted reasons, tell him the truth and betray Tedd's trust, or not really address the issue and hope it doesn't become too much of a problem when he talks with Mr. Verres about Tedd...

...Actually, come to think of it, does anyone besides Grace know that Tedd is gender-fluid? I can't remember if that bit of info was shared among the group. If not then Ellen and Elliot don't have to worry about betraying Tedd's trust as he didn't actually trust him with that info - all they have are their best guesses (which probably wouldn't be very far off the mark, but still). (Of course they'd still need to be careful not to say too much, but they'd be in more of a position to use their own judgement.)

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7 hours ago, Drasvin said:

I don't think the war was started over the scale (or the animal it came from). Once the Golem's memory had been properly jogged, their desire was for humans to have nothing. Seeing the scale in the box could have sparked some degree of recognition of that goal without causing the full recall of events. My guess is that the uryuoms in question were looking to carve out a place to call their own. Just happened that the place they wanted was already occupied. Going from that, the Golem wanted humans to have nothing, because that's the situation their kind was forced to deal with.

Like I said, they could have gone to extremes, starting with the scale and the power that came from it, and then ballooned from there. Though's it's possible that the Golem was malfunctioning as well, considering it states "this one's will..." well, maybe not malfunctioning, but if it was given sentience by the power in the same way that Kevin became sentient, then it may have decided on it's own that Humans should have nothing.

 

48 minutes ago, ChronosCat said:

Of course, Elliot and Ellen are in a bit of a hard place regarding Tedd's gender, as he's not really "out" outside his circle of friends, but Arthur already knows about Tedd's female form. Their options are pretty much lie to Arthur and make him think Tedd assumes female form for frivolous or perverted reasons, tell him the truth and betray Tedd's trust, or not really address the issue and hope it doesn't become too much of a problem when he talks with Mr. Verres about Tedd...

I'm not entirely sure if it would betray Tedd's trust if Ellen or Elliot told Arthur about Tedd being genderfluid, as it is, they're aware that Arthur's apparently seen Tedd as a female, so in their minds they'd be correcting Arthur. And Tedd probably already feels like the cat's out anyway. Though if anything, if Ellen and Elliot are aware that Tedd hasn't told Edward about being genderfluid, then as you said, they might want to ensure that Arthur doesn't want to slip any female pronouns with regards to Tedd if he happened to be talking to Edward before Tedd got a chance to talk to him.

So it's really a matter of "do we not say anything and hope that things don't get awkward? or seeing as Arthur apparently knows half the story anyway, we should make sure to fill in the other half so Tedd doesn't get put on the spot before he's ready?"

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13 hours ago, detrius said:

Also, Ellen indeed seems to have been infused with dragon power.

Yes, the theory it has something to do with Gargoyles was disproved. Good.

10 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

What kind of "large animal"?
I want some conclusions, darnitol.  So start jumping.

(run-up ... bounce ... ) It was a dragon.

10 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

It seems that Ellen still has some not-quite-resolved issues regarding Tedd.

Elliot ensured her he was a perfect gentleman when testing him, but seems she's still not comfortable with being tested by Tedd. Now, Grace ...

10 hours ago, Drasvin said:

That's a dragon scale. ... Is Ellen a dragon now?

Partially, probably.

10 hours ago, Scotty said:
10 hours ago, Drasvin said:

Also, it seems everyone keeps being wrong about what the "Diamond" was. I wonder what the original purpose of the thing was before Abraham got a hold of it. My guess would be to preserve the scale, either for study, power collection, or both.

I suggested that the crystal was meant so seal whatever held the power inside. though maybe it was meant to harness the scale's power in a more controlled manner?

That sounds like good idea, considering what happened when the power went out in UNcontrolled manner ... sure, it was accumulating some time, but also the scale got older. It's possible it was just as dangerous when fresh.

9 hours ago, Scotty said:
9 hours ago, partner555 said:

I don't think so. Heka was referring specifically to the Uryuom's situation when they assaulted the library. If it was over dragons, he would have said cause.

Heka mentioned being sympathetic to the Uryuom's situation, which could be taken as Heka not being too keen on Human's treatment of dragons either, but if the Uryuoms were going to extremes, like trying to take the power away by any means and included other sources of power like the library, then Heka probably wouldn't be able to sit by and watch.

"Uryuom situation" could be anything else as well, and we still don't know if Uryuom's plan what to do with dragons was better - dragon scales might just be source both sides of that war were using.

7 hours ago, Stature said:

Giving Tedd a lab, when a reasonable facsimile is already present.

Tedd will sure get a lab ... however I'm not sure he will get the scale. At least not right away.

2 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

It's interesting that aside from Ashley's confusion and Ellen's "Yes to those things" Arthur's pronoun usage for Tedd is not being addressed. I wonder if Elliot and Ellen will explain matters in more detail to Arthur (and Ashley) before the meeting's over, or if Arthur will be left having to figure it out for himself?

"Yes to those things" might've refer to something else. Obviously, Tedd getting lab and Ellen being volunteered as guinea pig is more important.

However ...

2 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

or not really address the issue and hope it doesn't become too much of a problem when he talks with Mr. Verres about Tedd...

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

Though if anything, if Ellen and Elliot are aware that Tedd hasn't told Edward about being genderfluid, then as you said, they might want to ensure that Arthur doesn't want to slip any female pronouns with regards to Tedd if he happened to be talking to Edward before Tedd got a chance to talk to him.

So it's really a matter of "do we not say anything and hope that things don't get awkward? or seeing as Arthur apparently knows half the story anyway, we should make sure to fill in the other half so Tedd doesn't get put on the spot before he's ready?"

... not sure if Elliot and Ellen will realize this, but this is EXACTLY situation where leaving Arthur confused will ENSURE worse outcome than trying to explain. Because Arthur is DEFINITELY going to talk to Edward.

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

Like I said, they could have gone to extremes, starting with the scale and the power that came from it, and then ballooned from there. Though's it's possible that the Golem was malfunctioning as well, considering it states "this one's will..." well, maybe not malfunctioning, but if it was given sentience by the power in the same way that Kevin became sentient, then it may have decided on it's own that Humans should have nothing.

Number 5 opinion notwithstanding, sentience of something which is not supposed to be sentient IS malfunction.

Regarding the scale ... I'm sure there were more scales where this one came from. And possibly several other body parts.

... also, if just SINGLE dragon SCALE has this amount of magic, I think we can safely assume the dragon the scale was from was way more powerful than the bulldog dragon. And while we still can't be sure if they was sentient, if it really turned Kevin sentient (as opposed the "Kevin became sentient on reset" option) then dragon sentience is very likely.

 

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2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

... also, if just SINGLE dragon SCALE has this amount of magic, I think we can safely assume the dragon the scale was from was way more powerful than the bulldog dragon. And while we still can't be sure if they was sentient, if it really turned Kevin sentient (as opposed the "Kevin became sentient on reset" option) then dragon sentience is very likely.

Alternate theory: the scale was magicked up a bit to be the nucleus that a mana crystal would form around. The "diamond" consisted entirely (aside from the scale) of magical energy held in a physical form, and was constantly absorbing a trickle of additional magical energy and growing... at a steadily slowing rate, first because being larger means it has more surface area to spread newly-absorbed energy over, and second because it also served to insulate the scale from stray energy.

Magus semi-accidentally (he knew it was a possibility but apparently didn't try to make it not happen) broke the equilibrium and the crystal shards converted back into magical energy.

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6 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

Of course, Elliot and Ellen are in a bit of a hard place regarding Tedd's gender, as he's not really "out" outside his circle of friends, but Arthur already knows about Tedd's female form. Their options are pretty much lie to Arthur and make him think Tedd assumes female form for frivolous or perverted reasons, tell him the truth and betray Tedd's trust, or not really address the issue and hope it doesn't become too much of a problem when he talks with Mr. Verres about Tedd...

Another point to consider: that Arthur may already be aware of the involved social issues and that he is simply choosing to respect what Tedd is. It is not as if the different gender possibilities are kept under a Masquerade the same way magic used to be; it is merely that bigotry, transphobia and homophobia makes it fraught for those who are not cishet vanilla to be open about it. As to Mr. Verres, how could it possibly be a problem? He already knows that Tedd shifts between male and female. He is merely allowing his transphobia to tell himself that Tedd is male because he was AMAB and that what Tedd does is 'unhealthy' for him. It might even do him good if his old boss and mentor challenges that assumption.

6 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

...Actually, come to think of it, does anyone besides Grace know that Tedd is gender-fluid? I can't remember if that bit of info was shared among the group. If not then Ellen and Elliot don't have to worry about betraying Tedd's trust as he didn't actually trust him with that info - all they have are their best guesses (which probably wouldn't be very far off the mark, but still). (Of course they'd still need to be careful not to say too much, but they'd be in more of a position to use their own judgement.)

Errrr... that is deeply problematic. The reasoning in the above seems to be that it is okay to out someone as long as you have discovered their secret on your own rather than being entrusted it by them. And it isn't. It really isn't. If someone isn't ready to come out, outing them against their will is an act of violence against them. It doesn't matter if they are trusting you not to or if they have no idea that you have found out. If Justin hadn't told Melissa he was gay and she instead had worked it out from his behavior, and then subsequently let that slip to her gleeful gossip of a sister, Justin would have been just as outed and his life would still have been wrecked by the consequences.

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7 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

...Actually, come to think of it, does anyone besides Grace know that Tedd is gender-fluid? I can't remember if that bit of info was shared among the group. If not then Ellen and Elliot don't have to worry about betraying Tedd's trust as he didn't actually trust him with that info - all they have are their best guesses (which probably wouldn't be very far off the mark, but still). (Of course they'd still need to be careful not to say too much, but they'd be in more of a position to use their own judgement.)

1) All of the main 8 and anyone else who knows about Tedd's sex-swapping are aware that he's genderfluid. Or, at least, will know as soon as they form the mental concept - with or without the terms. I suspect that Tedd was late in actually encountering the term "genderfluid" because everyone around him assumed he already knew it.

2) You don't tell your friend's (non-criminal) secrets to people you suspect your friend wouldn't choose to share them with, no matter how you learn those secrets. And you err on the side of secrecy. Unless sharing the secrets is critically necessary for health and well-being.

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1 hour ago, The Old Hack said:

Another point to consider: that Arthur may already be aware of the involved social issues and that he is simply choosing to respect what Tedd is. It is not as if the different gender possibilities are kept under a Masquerade the same way magic used to be; it is merely that bigotry, transphobia and homophobia makes it fraught for those who are not cishet vanilla to be open about it. As to Mr. Verres, how could it possibly be a problem? He already knows that Tedd shifts between male and female. He is merely allowing his transphobia to tell himself that Tedd is male because he was AMAB and that what Tedd does is 'unhealthy' for him. It might even do him good if his old boss and mentor challenges that assumption.

It's entirely possible Arthur has already figured out Tedd's gender-fluidity and is merely being respectful. (It's also possible that he has no clue, and his referring to Tedd as female in front of Mr. Verres will have no more consequences than Mr. Verres "correcting" him.) The problem comes if he's curious and decides to investigate the matter in such a manner that Mr. Verres becomes aware that there's more to Tedd's female transformations than Mr. Verres realized, or if he otherwise accidentally outs Tedd to Mr. Verres due to his lack of understanding of the situation (and Mr. Verres doesn't take it well).

1 hour ago, The Old Hack said:

Errrr... that is deeply problematic. The reasoning in the above seems to be that it is okay to out someone as long as you have discovered their secret on your own rather than being entrusted it by them. And it isn't. It really isn't. If someone isn't ready to come out, outing them against their will is an act of violence against them. It doesn't matter if they are trusting you not to or if they have no idea that you have found out. If Justin hadn't told Melissa he was gay and she instead had worked it out from his behavior, and then subsequently let that slip to her gleeful gossip of a sister, Justin would have been just as outed and his life would still have been wrecked by the consequences.

My reasoning was that if one has not been told that information that one is in possession of is supposed to be secret, one must decide for oneself whether it should be kept secret in any specific situation. What I obviously failed to take into account was that in some cases (gender identity being one of them), the default assumption should be that it is a secret, so not having been told one way or the other is a moot point.

I had a nagging suspicion that I hadn't thought that part of my post through fully, but I had no idea I had messed up so badly; thank you for pointing that out. (It's actually rather ironic I would make this mistake, given that IRL I'm quite selective as to who I reveal my own gender-fluidity to...)

I suppose under the circumstances, ignoring Arthur's use of pronouns and hoping for the best is probably Ellen and Elliot's best option.

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1 hour ago, The Old Hack said:

If someone isn't ready to come out

Of course, this page might point to Tedd being ready to come out, at least to her father ... but Elliot and Ellen doesn't know that.

It's hard to say ... most gender-fluid people can't get into situations similar to Tedd's ...

39 minutes ago, ChronosCat said:
1 hour ago, The Old Hack said:

Another point to consider: that Arthur may already be aware of the involved social issues and that he is simply choosing to respect what Tedd is. It is not as if the different gender possibilities are kept under a Masquerade the same way magic used to be; it is merely that bigotry, transphobia and homophobia makes it fraught for those who are not cishet vanilla to be open about it. As to Mr. Verres, how could it possibly be a problem? He already knows that Tedd shifts between male and female. He is merely allowing his transphobia to tell himself that Tedd is male because he was AMAB and that what Tedd does is 'unhealthy' for him. It might even do him good if his old boss and mentor challenges that assumption.

It's entirely possible Arthur has already figured out Tedd's gender-fluidity and is merely being respectful. (It's also possible that he has no clue, and his referring to Tedd as female in front of Mr. Verres will have no more consequences than Mr. Verres "correcting" him.) The problem comes if he's curious and decides to investigate the matter in such a manner that Mr. Verres becomes aware that there's more to Tedd's female transformations than Mr. Verres realized, or if he otherwise accidentally outs Tedd to Mr. Verres due to his lack of understanding of the situation (and Mr. Verres doesn't take it well).

41 minutes ago, ChronosCat said:

I suppose under the circumstances, ignoring Arthur's use of pronouns and hoping for the best is probably Ellen and Elliot's best option.

Logically, the best option would be to ensure Arthur is aware of the need of secrecy without giving him more informations than he already has. Except I would have no idea how to do it. Even just saying he's not out implies there is something to be out of ...

... and "hoping for best" is not really excuse, nor is pretending that harm resulting from your inaction is less harming than harm resulting from your action.

...

Wait. There is additional issue here. ARTHUR has more information, but Ashley doesn't and explaining anything to Arthur would out Tedd to Ashley. Damn this is minefield ... and Elliot and Ellen are even worse equipped to deal with it than we are.

 

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3 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Wait. There is additional issue here. ARTHUR has more information, but Ashley doesn't and explaining anything to Arthur would out Tedd to Ashley. Damn this is minefield ... and Elliot and Ellen are even worse equipped to deal with it than we are.

At least we have the advantage that we CAN'T do harm. We are just readers sitting in an alternate universe debating the labyrinthine ethics of the situation. :icon_eek:

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22 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:
26 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Wait. There is additional issue here. ARTHUR has more information, but Ashley doesn't and explaining anything to Arthur would out Tedd to Ashley. Damn this is minefield ... and Elliot and Ellen are even worse equipped to deal with it than we are.

At least we have the advantage that we CAN'T do harm. We are just readers sitting in an alternate universe debating the labyrinthine ethics of the situation. :icon_eek:

Assuming Edward is not reading this forum, but in this case the harm was already done.

(Scale can read it and is known to possess technology which may allow her to visit EGS universe. Although she's occupied now.)

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

... and "hoping for best" is not really excuse, nor is pretending that harm resulting from your inaction is less harming than harm resulting from your action

"Hoping for the best" is not an excuse - it's a (very ineffective) course of action.

Also, sometimes one must weigh potential harm against definite harm. If Elliot and/or Ellen say nothing, Arthur might still figure out Tedd's gender-fluidity (if he hasn't already), and Tedd might be outed to Mr. Verres as well - or maybe one or both won't happen. If they say something now, Tedd will definitely be outed to Arthur and Ashley (and will likely feel betrayed if he finds out), and while Arthur might honor their request to not tell Mr. Verres there is no guarantee of that. So the option which has the greatest chance of the fewest people learning of Tedd's gender identity (and also of harming Tedd the least) is saying nothing.

Edited by ChronosCat
Realized I missed a point.

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Just now, ChronosCat said:

Also, sometimes one must weigh potential harm against definite harm. If Elliot and/or Ellen say nothing, Arthur might still figure out Tedd's gender-fluidity (if he hasn't already), and Tedd might be outed to Mr. Verres as well - or maybe one or both won't happen. If they say something now, Tedd will definitely be outed to Arthur and Ashley, and while Arthur might honor their request to not tell Mr. Verres there is no guarantee of that. So the option which has the greatest chance of the fewest people learning of Tedd's gender identity is saying nothing.

There is no question of Tedd being outed to Mr. Verres. Mr. Verres already knows that Tedd switches back and forth between male and female. The problem is that Mr. Verres is transphobic and does not even acknowledge that genderfluidity is real. Whether due to ignorance or bigotry, he sees Tedd's gender identity as a sickness or even a perversion. As long as that is the case, Arthur could yell at Edward all day long and it would not change a thing.

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