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      Welcome!   03/05/2016

      Welcome, everyone, to the new 910CMX Community Forums. I'm still working on getting them running, so things may change.  If you're a 910 Comic creator and need your forum recreated, let me know and I'll get on it right away.  I'll do my best to make this new place as fun as the last one!

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27 minutes ago, CritterKeeper said:

Neither of them has read any new spells yet....

With all the happenings in Moperville, who even has the time?

The publishing company must be cutting its losses then. I blame the Disco Wizard. :demonicduck:

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1 hour ago, Stature said:

The publishing company must be cutting its losses then. I blame the Disco Wizard. :demonicduck:

Meh, Magic just realised that e-readers have done such a number on the printed word that it was time to look into savings measures.

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20 minutes ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

He is actually reading his spell book on his own initiative?  Amazing!

Does being prompted to look because Ellen's reading really count as "own initiative"?

Nice that they both came to the conclusion that Tedd was responsible for it, I don't think they have heard anything beyond Tedd and Arthur being involved in deciding the fate of Magic, but it sounds like Magic might have oversimplified spellbooks so experimentation would still be necessary to learn exactly what spells do.

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11 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Except for Elliot.

He is actually reading his spell book on his own initiative?  Amazing!

Well, sorta.  He got his book out after Ellen found her being smaller.

8 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

Neither of them has read any new spells yet....

Nor has Elliot read the vision spell he got new "EZ 2 READ" version.

 

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I'm.... a little confused. Do we know what the spell books said before the change? Otherwise I don't really have any frame of reference as to how much the wording has changed or which version was "better".

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Just now, CNash said:

I'm.... a little confused. Do we know what the spell books said before the change? Otherwise I don't really have any frame of reference as to how much the wording has changed or which version was "better".

The only indication we have of the wording was back when Elliot looked at what the Cheerleadra form did and had no idea what "exorbitant breadth" meant and  what it had to do with his chest.

Nanase at first seemed like she understood what her spellbook said, but after Tedd accused her of not keeping up, I kinda think that she did read it, but there were parts that she might have misunderstood, like if it wasn't really clear about being able to customize fairy doll outfit.

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Ok. In reactions on previous comics, I forgot to take into account that just because magic doesn't know HOW to change the description doesn't mean it won't TRY anyway. As Ellen pointed out, it's TOO shortened now ...

... I suspect real reason this happened is meta, specifically that Dan can now show examples of what spell books are saying, as he noted.

11 hours ago, Scotty said:

Nice that they both came to the conclusion that Tedd was responsible for it, I don't think they have heard anything beyond Tedd and Arthur being involved in deciding the fate of Magic, but it sounds like Magic might have oversimplified spellbooks so experimentation would still be necessary to learn exactly what spells do.

.... oooor let Tedd look at it.

36 minutes ago, Scotty said:
3 hours ago, CNash said:

I'm.... a little confused. Do we know what the spell books said before the change? Otherwise I don't really have any frame of reference as to how much the wording has changed or which version was "better".

The only indication we have of the wording was back when Elliot looked at what the Cheerleadra form did and had no idea what "exorbitant breadth" meant and  what it had to do with his chest.

We also have the spell for counting how many people are looking at Nanase having 15 pages and her comment "figuring out this spell" meaning it was more deciphering than just reading.

We don't know much about the wording itself, but in the old version, the description of spells they read wouldn't fit in page even if it would be complete wall of text even worse than Grace's plan.

38 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Nanase at first seemed like she understood what her spellbook said, but after Tedd accused her of not keeping up, I kinda think that she did read it, but there were parts that she might have misunderstood, like if it wasn't really clear about being able to customize fairy doll outfit.

She has lot of experience, but probably makes some mistake from time to time. Or, she missed the fairy doll customization because it wasn't new spell but change in existing spell.

 

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4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

She has lot of experience, but probably makes some mistake from time to time. Or, she missed the fairy doll customization because it wasn't new spell but change in existing spell.

Nanase's spellbook at that time was probably (based on the number of spells we've seen, and the clues we've gotten as to how detailed the spell descriptions are) at least 350 pages.

Fairydoll was not a recently-acquired spell, so it would not be expected to be at the end of the book. And if simple counting-who's-looking is 15 pages, that would probably be at least 35 in the basic form. Now let's increase it by 5... very easy to overlook.

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15 hours ago, Don Edwards said:
20 hours ago, hkmaly said:

She has lot of experience, but probably makes some mistake from time to time. Or, she missed the fairy doll customization because it wasn't new spell but change in existing spell.

Nanase's spellbook at that time was probably (based on the number of spells we've seen, and the clues we've gotten as to how detailed the spell descriptions are) at least 350 pages.

Fairydoll was not a recently-acquired spell, so it would not be expected to be at the end of the book. And if simple counting-who's-looking is 15 pages, that would probably be at least 35 in the basic form. Now let's increase it by 5... very easy to overlook.

Exactly. Especially considering it might not be five pages. It is entirely possible the default outfit of the fairy was described so verbosely that the customization change didn't resulted in ANY page count change at all - it just used up space previously filled with default outfit description.

(Also, there is the possibility she only get the customization upgrade when creating the fairies in the basement - maybe Tedd wasn't paying attention and missed it.)

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23 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

(Also, there is the possibility she only get the customization upgrade when creating the fairies in the basement - maybe Tedd wasn't paying attention and missed it.)

I don't think Tedd (and Seers in general) would actually see when someone got a new spell or spell upgrade (if spell upgrades can be for random spells and not just the ones being used at that moment), it'd be really silly if anyone went "hey Tedd, I'm gonna repeatedly use some spells, let me know when I level up!"

 

Mind you, if someone repeatedly used the same spell over and over with Tedd watching, Tedd would likely be able to notice a change in that particular spell if there was one. And Nanase did create 3 dolls before the Grace doll, but considering Tedd's assessment that Nanase wasn't keeping up with her book, it's more likely that the upgrade came before she created the Tedd doll.

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2 hours ago, Scotty said:
2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

(Also, there is the possibility she only get the customization upgrade when creating the fairies in the basement - maybe Tedd wasn't paying attention and missed it.)

I don't think Tedd (and Seers in general) would actually see when someone got a new spell or spell upgrade (if spell upgrades can be for random spells and not just the ones being used at that moment), it'd be really silly if anyone went "hey Tedd, I'm gonna repeatedly use some spells, let me know when I level up!"

I'm not that much sure the "level up" is even something real (as opposed to just something Nanase use to describe getting new spells).

But yes: for some reason, seers can see parts of spell the caster is not using - including spell upgrades - but not spells caster is not using, nor they are able to find if person is marked and/or awakened.

2 hours ago, Scotty said:

Mind you, if someone repeatedly used the same spell over and over with Tedd watching, Tedd would likely be able to notice a change in that particular spell if there was one. And Nanase did create 3 dolls before the Grace doll, but considering Tedd's assessment that Nanase wasn't keeping up with her book, it's more likely that the upgrade came before she created the Tedd doll.

THIS was what I was speaking about: I think that despite his assessment, he was not paying attention when Nanase created Tedd doll and therefore wouldn't know if she already had that upgrade then.

Nanase IS most likely to get upgrade to fairy doll when using the spell, and she was not using it that much before - at least not for creating new dolls.

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5 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

I'm not that much sure the "level up" is even something real (as opposed to just something Nanase use to describe getting new spells).

The definition of "level up" is heavily dependent on the game system - there are some that would probably use a different term if "level up" weren't already in the RPGer vocabulary. For that matter, "level up" is both an event that happens to the character and a process that is carried out by the player.

I don't see a problem with the event of getting new/enhanced spells being described as "level up". It's well within the scope of what the RPGer term means.

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57 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

THIS was what I was speaking about: I think that despite his assessment, he was not paying attention when Nanase created Tedd doll and therefore wouldn't know if she already had that upgrade then.

It would seem weird though if Tedd wasn't paying attention to the first two dolls (Tedd and Susan) but then was for the third (Updated Nanase), also he was certainly paying attention when Susan summoned Lil' Nase to be able to tell her that she could potentially go first person mode with the dolls. Tedd was in the room for all 3 dolls so she should have seen Nanase make all 3.

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1 hour ago, Don Edwards said:
1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

I'm not that much sure the "level up" is even something real (as opposed to just something Nanase use to describe getting new spells).

The definition of "level up" is heavily dependent on the game system - there are some that would probably use a different term if "level up" weren't already in the RPGer vocabulary. For that matter, "level up" is both an event that happens to the character and a process that is carried out by the player.

I don't see a problem with the event of getting new/enhanced spells being described as "level up". It's well within the scope of what the RPGer term means.

While you can use the term loosely, it implies there is linear sequence of spells and you will always get the next one "in queue". However, the fact you can get upgrades to specific spell when you are training THAT spell and not different one implies the real system is more complicated. Also, Nanase only got guardian spell because she was ready to die for Ellen, and wouldn't get it if she just spammed fairy in different situation ...

7 minutes ago, Scotty said:
1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

THIS was what I was speaking about: I think that despite his assessment, he was not paying attention when Nanase created Tedd doll and therefore wouldn't know if she already had that upgrade then.

It would seem weird though if Tedd wasn't paying attention to the first two dolls (Tedd and Susan) but then was for the third (Updated Nanase), also he was certainly paying attention when Susan summoned Lil' Nase to be able to tell her that she could potentially go first person mode with the dolls. Tedd was in the room for all 3 dolls so she should have seen Nanase make all 3.

Would it? Look at him - ok, her - just before making Tedd doll. She might be too distracted by her emotions and attempts to make puppy face to pay attention to the spell.

I agree that with commenting about the physical feedback soon afterwards she likely DID paid attention to the Susan doll.

 

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Just now, hkmaly said:

Would it? Look at him just before making Tedd doll. He might be too distracted by his emotions and attempts to make puppy face to pay attention to the spell.

Tedd may have looked like that prior to Susan finally giving in and asking, but I bet Tedd was watching once it was settled, Tedd would have needed to hand Nanase the watch anyway since Susan was never seen taking it from her.

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2 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

I don't see a problem with the event of getting new/enhanced spells being described as "level up". It's well within the scope of what the RPGer term means.

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

While you can use the term loosely, it implies there is linear sequence of spells and you will always get the next one "in queue".

I'm not aware of a game system where that is true. There are quite a few where it's an available option, but for it to be the only option? For spellcasters? (I am aware of systems where most non-casters get nothing but the same abilities a bit stronger, or sometimes can do exactly the same thing one more time per turn.)

All the other stuff you refer to that goes on in EGS and doesn't happen in RPGs, making the use of "level up" inappropriate for EGS... I've seen it happen in RPGs. Including gaining specific new features in mid-scene by GM fiat (my gnome bard gained a familiar that way).

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Leveling up spells is entirely dependent upon the reality established by the author.

In many games involving magic there are a lot of spells involving fire.  Some would count each as a separate spell that the caster must acquire individually.  But some would see things like Ignite Fire, Create Fire, Light, Heat, Cauterize, Cook, Fireball, Flame Jet, Smoke Jet, Explosive Fire Ball, Wall of Flame, Wall of Smoke, Flaming Hands, Flaming Weapon, Flaming Armor, Dancing Flames, Smoke Writing, and Detect The Killer Rabbit of Caerbannog as learning to use a basic Fire Magic ability in different ways.  The second option is more difficult to regulate in a game situation, but it can make for a smoother story.

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3 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

All the other stuff you refer to that goes on in EGS and doesn't happen in RPGs, making the use of "level up" inappropriate for EGS... I've seen it happen in RPGs. Including gaining specific new features in mid-scene by GM fiat (my gnome bard gained a familiar that way).

I am with you here. I remember this one time while playing on an original Neverwinter Nights roleplaying server that I was part of a desperate rescue action. While we were confronting a miniboss I suddenly leveled up in mid-fight when one of its minions went down. I had not paid attention to my XP counter due to the intensity of the situation so it came as a bit of a shock. O.O

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18 hours ago, hkmaly said:

(Also, there is the possibility she only get the customization upgrade when creating the fairies in the basement - maybe Tedd wasn't paying attention and missed it.)

I figured that she had last checked her spellbook within the last few days, but the spell changed between that point and when she started casting spells at Tedd's. So it was just a quirk of timing that it seemed like she wasn't keeping up.

14 hours ago, hkmaly said:

While you can use the term loosely, it implies there is linear sequence of spells and you will always get the next one "in queue". However, the fact you can get upgrades to specific spell when you are training THAT spell and not different one implies the real system is more complicated.

No experience with tabletop RPGs, just video game ones, but I have played several games where when you gain a new level, you have a choice of skill/spell to learn, as part of a tree of skill development (Diablo II and Final Fantasy X come to mind).

12 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

I'm not aware of a game system where that is true. There are quite a few where it's an available option, but for it to be the only option? For spellcasters? (I am aware of systems where most non-casters get nothing but the same abilities a bit stronger, or sometimes can do exactly the same thing one more time per turn.)

On the other hand, in most JRPGs I've played (particularly from the NES and SNES eras), each character had a specific list of spells that they always gained in order, so I can see where hkmaly is coming from.

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6 hours ago, ChronosCat said:
On 07/03/2018 at 9:17 PM, hkmaly said:

(Also, there is the possibility she only get the customization upgrade when creating the fairies in the basement - maybe Tedd wasn't paying attention and missed it.)

I figured that she had last checked her spellbook within the last few days, but the spell changed between that point and when she started casting spells at Tedd's. So it was just a quirk of timing that it seemed like she wasn't keeping up.

I think she wouldn't say she didn't though she's behind with her book if that would be the case. I think that she last checked day before. Obviously, she COULD get the spell since then, or, as we commented before, she could've overlook it. But I wanted to mention the option that she JUST got it because I think it makes sense the way EGS magic works.

6 hours ago, ChronosCat said:
20 hours ago, hkmaly said:

While you can use the term loosely, it implies there is linear sequence of spells and you will always get the next one "in queue". However, the fact you can get upgrades to specific spell when you are training THAT spell and not different one implies the real system is more complicated.

No experience with tabletop RPGs, just video game ones, but I have played several games where when you gain a new level, you have a choice of skill/spell to learn, as part of a tree of skill development (Diablo II and Final Fantasy X come to mind).

Even if you have choice it's still linear sequence of spell, just not fixed one.

6 hours ago, ChronosCat said:
19 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

I'm not aware of a game system where that is true. There are quite a few where it's an available option, but for it to be the only option? For spellcasters? (I am aware of systems where most non-casters get nothing but the same abilities a bit stronger, or sometimes can do exactly the same thing one more time per turn.)

On the other hand, in most JRPGs I've played (particularly from the NES and SNES eras), each character had a specific list of spells that they always gained in order, so I can see where hkmaly is coming from.

Yes, I was basing it more on computer RPG games than tabletop RPG. It's true that in good tabletop RPG, game master will insert just those interesting moments we saw in EGS.

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