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The Old Hack

Story Wednesday August 1, 2018

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Somehow I knew she would return in a form something like the 2001 space baby.

Is the back ground music Also sprach Zarathustra?  Have we already gotten to An der schönen blauen Donau?

Or are we waiting for HAL to sing Daisy Bell?

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6 hours ago, ijuin said:

Come to think of it, given the rarity of Seers, could this be the first time ever that one mother has birthed two Seers?

5 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Maybe not. Remember, Seers are GENETIC.

What if there's something special about Noriko specifically? It's a pretty big coincidence that she was able to give birth to two Seers with different fathers, what if her genetics are such that she really only needed someone with any amount of Immortal ancestry to produce a Seer? Edward, Susan's father, heck even Sarah's father (purely hypothetical of course) But that ties in to there being more to her ancestry than we know.

 

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9 hours ago, Stature said:

I can oddly imagine what GraSusan* would look like. What is with the Grace fever lately?

Although, let us be honest. Could I clearly make out the lines? Nope. If it IS Susan, eh???

Adrian Raven fathered his first kid a long time ago, so it is quite possible that our Grace got some of her DNA from that same kid (like Susan) through the original Grace.

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Just now, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Did Pandora have any children before her last reset?

It's possible any of her past selves had children, and those children had children.

We have Pandora stating that one of her past selves passed on the lie about Elves not being able to have kids, I dunno if Adrian was the only child she had after the lie was set though, maybe there were a few couples split up because one of them got pregnant and the other swore it couldn't be his.

Prior to the lie though, there are probably some families who have a legend about an ancestor being blessed by the gods or something. How far back do you think Noriko's family of monster hunters reaches back and would they have a similar legend?

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10 hours ago, Scotty said:
17 hours ago, ijuin said:

Come to think of it, given the rarity of Seers, could this be the first time ever that one mother has birthed two Seers?

15 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Maybe not. Remember, Seers are GENETIC.

What if there's something special about Noriko specifically? It's a pretty big coincidence that she was able to give birth to two Seers with different fathers, what if her genetics are such that she really only needed someone with any amount of Immortal ancestry to produce a Seer? Edward, Susan's father, heck even Sarah's father (purely hypothetical of course) But that ties in to there being more to her ancestry than we know.

Even if that's true, it could still be pure chance. (Yes, it is possible that Noriko alone has like 90% of necessary genes ... would explain while genetics is so reliable in her family.) It's not likely THIS would be what Will of Magic was explaining to Van.

6 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:
16 hours ago, Stature said:

I can oddly imagine what GraSusan* would look like. What is with the Grace fever lately?

Although, let us be honest. Could I clearly make out the lines? Nope. If it IS Susan, eh???

Adrian Raven fathered his first kid a long time ago, so it is quite possible that our Grace got some of her DNA from that same kid (like Susan) through the original Grace.

... not just possible, the chance is quite big IMHO.

43 minutes ago, Scotty said:

We have Pandora stating that one of her past selves passed on the lie about Elves not being able to have kids, I dunno if Adrian was the only child she had after the lie was set though, maybe there were a few couples split up because one of them got pregnant and the other swore it couldn't be his.

Prior to the lie though, there are probably some families who have a legend about an ancestor being blessed by the gods or something. How far back do you think Noriko's family of monster hunters reaches back and would they have a similar legend?

"Blessed", right. I think Noriko's family is old enough for the legend to actually mention the ancestor BEING a god or rather , Kami. Possibly also having a form of nine-tailed fox.

Looking at mythology, the idea of someone being child of god seems much older that the idea that gods might help someone just because they like them without any sex being involved.

However, monster hunters notwithstanding, Nanase doesn't show any signs of weapon summoning talent, which would suggest the immortal who founded that family wasn't Pandora. Unless Nanase is exception and Noriko totally have that talent.

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25 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

However, monster hunters notwithstanding, Nanase doesn't show any signs of weapon summoning talent, which would suggest the immortal who founded that family wasn't Pandora. Unless Nanase is exception and Noriko totally have that talent.

Noriko is a wizard, and I'm not sure if you can be both a wizard and someone with an affinity.

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Just now, hkmaly said:

However, monster hunters notwithstanding, Nanase doesn't show any signs of weapon summoning talent, which would suggest the immortal who founded that family wasn't Pandora. Unless Nanase is exception and Noriko totally have that talent.

Having a mix of Immortal ancestry (due to wizards mating with wizards over generations) it's possible that there's a big roulette wheel of innate talents that Nanase would have spun when she was conceived, genetic traits can be random, innate talents could be as well.

Also Nanase's spells have been based on the type of person she is, she may still get the ability to summon weapons at some point, but the magic she got was first base on what her martial arts training gave her, and everything since was a mix of her desire to hide certain aspects of her life (which she doesn't do as much anymore) and protecting people, it's possible that Nanase either hasn't tapped into her innate talent yet, or her talent is other summoning like the Fairy Doll and Fox and possibly the Guardian Form. Noriko has been hinted at having the ability to summon multiple weapons, whether they are due to innate talent or something she learned as a wizard is uncertain. I can't remember if it was made clear whether wizards have innate talents or if those were reserved for non-wizard magic users.

Maybe Wild Speculation: In the last Q&A, we see an updated version of possibly Noriko from the above Family Tree reference. I remember originally thinking it was Susan because of the slim body and long hair, and while we've never actually seen Noriko's face it seems oddly like how we had never seen Susan's Father's face. Now it's quite apparent after Susan saw Adrian in his true form, that Susan's father looks a lot like Adrian, so what if Noriko bears a similar resemblance? Maybe not as obvious unless of course Edward's belief that appearances being coincidental stems from Adrian swearing the Noriko couldn't be related. But if one of Noriko's parents was a descendant along the same side of the tree that Susan is on (like maybe a grandparent or great grandparent of Noriko is also a grand or great grandparent of Mr Pompoms), then Susan, Tedd and Nanase could be distant cousins.

I guess if Adrian happens to look at that picture of him with Edward and Noriko again and reacts to it in some way, we'll know.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, partner555 said:

Noriko is a wizard, and I'm not sure if you can be both a wizard and someone with an affinity.

Remember that seers are a rare type of wizard that don't get innate spells. Conversely, most wizards should have innate spells. Susan's acquisition of additional fairy spells, the vast elaboration of Nanase's spells, and the plethora of new abilities that Ellen and Elliot have acquired kind of look like they may be learning elements of other people's spells and modifying them for their own use.

Edited by Tom Sewell
INNATE, DAMMIT!!!

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Just now, Tom Sewell said:

Remember that seers are a rare type of wizard that don't get inmate spells.

That's because they don't spend enough time in solitary. ;)

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27 minutes ago, Scotty said:
1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

However, monster hunters notwithstanding, Nanase doesn't show any signs of weapon summoning talent, which would suggest the immortal who founded that family wasn't Pandora. Unless Nanase is exception and Noriko totally have that talent.

Having a mix of Immortal ancestry (due to wizards mating with wizards over generations) it's possible that there's a big roulette wheel of innate talents that Nanase would have spun when she was conceived, genetic traits can be random, innate talents could be as well.

Also Nanase's spells have been based on the type of person she is, she may still get the ability to summon weapons at some point, but the magic she got was first base on what her martial arts training gave her, and everything since was a mix of her desire to hide certain aspects of her life (which she doesn't do as much anymore) and protecting people, it's possible that Nanase either hasn't tapped into her innate talent yet, or her talent is other summoning like the Fairy Doll and Fox and possibly the Guardian Form.

Hmmmm ... I would say it's possible to have multiple innate talents, but you have point that you can only have ONE first spell. It's entirely possible Nanase has weapon summoning talent and it just isn't strong enough to actually give her some spell because the other stuff had priority.

34 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Noriko has been hinted at having the ability to summon multiple weapons, whether they are due to innate talent or something she learned as a wizard is uncertain.

Also, yes, it IS possible that Noriko has the talent and just Nanase doesn't.

It is however also possible - and even likely - that she learned that spell as a wizard FROM ADRIAN WHO WAS TEACHING HER.

14 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:
41 minutes ago, partner555 said:

Noriko is a wizard, and I'm not sure if you can be both a wizard and someone with an affinity.

Remember that seers are a rare type of wizard that don't get inmate spells. Conversely, most wizards should have inmate spells.

Yes.

10 minutes ago, Scotty said:

That's because they don't spend enough time in solitary. ;)

... well, ok, innate spells. :)

15 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

Susan's acquisition of additional fairy spells, the vast elaboration of Nanase's spells, and the plethora of new abilities that Ellen and Elliot have acquired kind of look like they may be learning elements of other people's spells and modifying them for their own use.

Susan's acquisition of fairy spell was mixup of her own spell with Nanase's. Noone mentioned is supposed to be wizard and their spells look quite different. Even if there would be some subconscious element of copying, it would be something else than wizards who are able to learn spell exactly and deliberately.

In fact, we still don't know if wizards CAN modify spell. We know that SEERS can, but that can be part of their dangerous rarity. Maybe ordinary wizards are LIMITED to copying spell exactly.

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Just now, hkmaly said:

It is however also possible - and even likely - that she learned that spell as a wizard FROM ADRIAN WHO WAS TEACHING HER.

While learning the spell is likely, I'm not really sure Adrian would have taught her.

Sure, the ability to summon weapons is an innate ability for anyone in Pandora's bloodline, but have we actually seen Adrian summon anything besides a flock of birds*? His fight with Abraham had him using a physical sword that was made to be concealed as a cane which Adrian probably bought from a legitimate shop at some point in his life.

And when the vampires attacked the mall, he borrowed Susan's sword. If Adrian could summon weapons, why didn't he do so? I don't believe for a moment that he wouldn't have his own chest of various weapons and tools just in case if he was capable of summoning them.

Just now, hkmaly said:

Susan's acquisition of fairy spell was mixup of her own spell with Nanase's. Noone mentioned is supposed to be wizard and their spells look quite different. Even if there would be some subconscious element of copying, it would be something else than wizards who are able to learn spell exactly and deliberately.

In fact, we still don't know if wizards CAN modify spell. We know that SEERS can, but that can be part of their dangerous rarity. Maybe ordinary wizards are LIMITED to copying spell exactly.

At least Wizards can learn spells modified by Seers, that might make Seers even more dangerous, and a hot commodity if people learned about that aspect.

 

*Yes I know it's murder of crows, I'm being silly there.

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1 hour ago, Scotty said:
2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

It is however also possible - and even likely - that she learned that spell as a wizard FROM ADRIAN WHO WAS TEACHING HER.

While learning the spell is likely, I'm not really sure Adrian would have taught her.

Sure, the ability to summon weapons is an innate ability for anyone in Pandora's bloodline, but have we actually seen Adrian summon anything besides a flock of birds*? His fight with Abraham had him using a physical sword that was made to be concealed as a cane which Adrian probably bought from a legitimate shop at some point in his life.

And when the vampires attacked the mall, he borrowed Susan's sword. If Adrian could summon weapons, why didn't he do so? I don't believe for a moment that he wouldn't have his own chest of various weapons and tools just in case if he was capable of summoning them.

Adrian was raised to be as powerful as he could possibly be. However, he is also limited by being elf. Also, look as this attack with sword. He's not giving everything into his fight with Abraham and possibly even can't due to Abraham being human.

It is possible that due to limited opportunity to use such spell he doesn't have it prepared. Or he may be borrowing Susan's sword to keep her from harm. Seems he has experience with such kind of swords.

I must admit I would expect better fighting abilities from him, including more spells. But lack of training might explain that. Or, well, there is the meta explanation.

It's also possible Adrian taught Noriko some basic spell and then she got upgrades by using it. Actually, even Susan already got upgrade to her sword. Adrian likely don't because of limited training opportunities, which makes sword he can summon weaker than Susans.

2 hours ago, Scotty said:
2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

In fact, we still don't know if wizards CAN modify spell. We know that SEERS can, but that can be part of their dangerous rarity. Maybe ordinary wizards are LIMITED to copying spell exactly.

At least Wizards can learn spells modified by Seers, that might make Seers even more dangerous, and a hot commodity if people learned about that aspect.

might make -> makes ; if -> when

Seers being hot commodity when they actually teach spells to wizard is nothing new. It's USUALLY happening just for limited time after reset - and possibly BEFORE reset as well, assuming at least one reset was caused by seer exploiting his abilities. However, being hot commodity is not exactly compatible with secrecy, and most seers are not aware they can do that.

 

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1 minute ago, hkmaly said:

Adrian was raised to be as powerful as he could possibly be. However, he is also limited by being elf. Also, look as this attack with sword. He's not giving everything into his fight with Abraham and possibly even can't due to Abraham being human.

Adrian was trying subdue Abraham, killing was a last resort, his yelling and then just tapping Abraham's shield was meant purely as a distraction tactic as was evident by Abraham forgetting that there were crows flying at him at that moment.

3 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

It is possible that due to limited opportunity to use such spell he doesn't have it prepared. Or he may be borrowing Susan's sword to keep her from harm. Seems he has experience with such kind of swords.

Prepared? In what way? It's not like he'd have to meditate for a few hours to make sure his spells are ready at a moments notice. Susan has had a chest in her room for over 2 years, she didn't know she'd be fighting vampires when she went to meet with Diane and yet she had no problem summoning anything. Adrian had MSHS set up with wards well before Abraham showed up, if anything Adrian should be ready of anything at any time.  It in general strikes me as odd that we've only seen his use illusions, crows and barriers despite him being a centuries old wizard.

13 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Seers being hot commodity when they actually teach spells to wizard is nothing new. It's USUALLY happening just for limited time after reset - and possibly BEFORE reset as well, assuming at least one reset was caused by seer exploiting his abilities. However, being hot commodity is not exactly compatible with secrecy, and most seers are not aware they can do that.

Considering Seers would be made aware of a system changes before, and told of the risk of letting magic be known, I understand how they might have tried to keep their identities secret. But if Seers were made aware of the system opening up with no more risk of changing again, many Seers might see an opportunity which might be good or bad depending on who you ask. We might have a couple Seers become the equivalent of arms dealers.

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On 8/1/2018 at 10:23 PM, The Old Hack said:

So far it is only her who is interested in him.

Are you sure?  It sure doesn't seem like he could have missed this, and he's not objecting, either.

In my headcannon, until proven otherwise, they got together during the six month timeskip, after a lot of flirting/shiptease.  ;-)

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1 hour ago, Scotty said:
2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Adrian was raised to be as powerful as he could possibly be. However, he is also limited by being elf. Also, look as this attack with sword. He's not giving everything into his fight with Abraham and possibly even can't due to Abraham being human.

Adrian was trying subdue Abraham, killing was a last resort, his yelling and then just tapping Abraham's shield was meant purely as a distraction tactic as was evident by Abraham forgetting that there were crows flying at him at that moment.

Exactly.

If you don't want to kill your opponent, you are not giving everything into the fight.

1 hour ago, Scotty said:
2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

It is possible that due to limited opportunity to use such spell he doesn't have it prepared. Or he may be borrowing Susan's sword to keep her from harm. Seems he has experience with such kind of swords.

Prepared? In what way? It's not like he'd have to meditate for a few hours to make sure his spells are ready at a moments notice. Susan has had a chest in her room for over 2 years, she didn't know she'd be fighting vampires when she went to meet with Diane and yet she had no problem summoning anything. Adrian had MSHS set up with wards well before Abraham showed up, if anything Adrian should be ready of anything at any time.  It in general strikes me as odd that we've only seen his use illusions, crows and barriers despite him being a centuries old wizard.

... true. The wards definitely needed more maintenance than sword in chest. (Obviously HIS weapon summoning spell might work differently, but it's unlikely to need more maintenance.)

Yes. He should have more magic.

1 hour ago, Scotty said:
2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Seers being hot commodity when they actually teach spells to wizard is nothing new. It's USUALLY happening just for limited time after reset - and possibly BEFORE reset as well, assuming at least one reset was caused by seer exploiting his abilities. However, being hot commodity is not exactly compatible with secrecy, and most seers are not aware they can do that.

Considering Seers would be made aware of a system changes before, and told of the risk of letting magic be known, I understand how they might have tried to keep their identities secret.

Semi-secret. I would assume every seer seek small trustworthy group of people he taught magic to.

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

But if Seers were made aware of the system opening up with no more risk of changing again, many Seers might see an opportunity which might be good or bad depending on who you ask. We might have a couple Seers become the equivalent of arms dealers.

Oh yes THAT changed. Any seer who realize the secrecy around magic is going to end soon might consider ending it little sooner on his terms acceptable risk.

Luckily, Tedd convinced magic to not tell them, so there are only two candidates for that (assuming Van won't decide for such career).

If, however, all thousand seers will be activated and shortly after another reset happened with WoM giving up the secrecy ... I think Dan failed horribly in that "deliberately leaving open if the magic reset wouldn't be better alternative".

48 minutes ago, CritterKeeper said:
On 8/2/2018 at 5:23 AM, The Old Hack said:

So far it is only her who is interested in him.

Are you sure?  It sure doesn't seem like he could have missed this, and he's not objecting, either.

In my headcannon, until proven otherwise, they got together during the six month timeskip, after a lot of flirting/shiptease.  ;-)

With the commentary below the comics (ANYWAY, panel one of this comic is what ultimately made me decide to officially declare this storyline canon. For reasons.), this is either suggesting she's mind-controlling him or that the progress of their relationship is something Dan wanted to show.

 

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4 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

Are you sure?  It sure doesn't seem like he could have missed this, and he's not objecting, either.

In my headcannon, until proven otherwise, they got together during the six month timeskip, after a lot of flirting/shiptease.  ;-)

Fair enough, but given how obtuse he had been about it in story till now, I personally am not yet convinced.

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3 hours ago, hkmaly said:

With the commentary below the comics (ANYWAY, panel one of this comic is what ultimately made me decide to officially declare this storyline canon. For reasons.), this is either suggesting she's mind-controlling him or that the progress of their relationship is something Dan wanted to show.

There is a "This is CANON" image in the commentary beneath the first comic in the story.

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19 minutes ago, CritterKeeper said:

Are you sure?  It sure doesn't seem like he could have missed this, and he's not objecting, either.

In my headcannon, until proven otherwise, they got together during the six month timeskip, after a lot of flirting/shiptease.  ;-)

7 hours ago, hkmaly said:

With the commentary below the comics (ANYWAY, panel one of this comic is what ultimately made me decide to officially declare this storyline canon. For reasons.), this is either suggesting she's mind-controlling him or that the progress of their relationship is something Dan wanted to show.

Considering Dan waited for when it showed Lavender's tail on Edward's shoulder to announce the story's canon-ness, in fact that particular panel was the clincher for the story becoming canon. We've known Lavender has had a thing for Edward for a while now but I don't think we saw any physical contact between them, some people might have thought Edward letting Lavender put her tail on his shoulder is something Edward would only do in a non canon setting.

Of course, Edward might be distracted by Susan and Lavender snuck in a shoulder grope while he wasn't paying attention. ;)

(I started typing this before I saw hkmaly's response, leaving mine as is since it does add more.)

7 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Luckily, Tedd convinced magic to not tell them, so there are only two candidates for that (assuming Van won't decide for such career).

Did Tedd do that? I don't recall the WoM stating that no one will be notified, Voltaire was notified and I think the same mechanic was used, yes Immortals are probably more sensitive to magic changing. Although judging by Pandora's recalled memoirs, it was just a feeling that something happened and didn't know why, Seers seemed like they'd be more sensitive to it.

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17 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Of course, Edward might be distracted by Susan and Lavender snuck in a shoulder grope while he wasn't paying attention. ;)

Actually, thinking about it more, maybe this possibility is even less likely if you think Edward's haste to end the call was more than to just avoid clarifying what "rarely" meant.

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11 hours ago, Scotty said:
18 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Luckily, Tedd convinced magic to not tell them, so there are only two candidates for that (assuming Van won't decide for such career).

Did Tedd do that? I don't recall the WoM stating that no one will be notified, Voltaire was notified and I think the same mechanic was used, yes Immortals are probably more sensitive to magic changing. Although judging by Pandora's recalled memoirs, it was just a feeling that something happened and didn't know why, Seers seemed like they'd be more sensitive to it.

Technically, Tedd talked out WoM from doing reset, which would include telling everyone as mandatory sideefect. Not-a-reset doesn't include any requirements of notifications and it's likely WoM didn't WANTED to warn anyone it didn't NEEDED to.

However, Voltaire wasn't notified. He was WAITING FOR IT and paid attention. While possible that others would notice something happened (especially immortals), I find unlikely seers who don't know about magic would realize what it was.

... something probably did caused the Uryuom to check the wand. I mean, it's unlikely he was testing it just to be sure every day for centuries. But it might've been some artifact suddenly activating.

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So, I dunno if anyone else realized this, it hasn't been brought up in this thread at least, but I just realized that more evidence to support Pandora's refresh was a success is the fact that her words in the last panel are slightly off script from the first paragraph of the "legacy" chapter. This leads me to wonder if "Legacy" was how Pandora had originally filed her memories in preparation for passing them to her next self upon reset, as in that would be how her next self would read them. The fact that "There lived an Immortal" is changed to "I was an Immortal" would make a huge difference in terms of how Pandora now views those memories.

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On 8/3/2018 at 5:34 PM, hkmaly said:

Technically, Tedd talked out WoM from doing reset, which would include telling everyone as mandatory sideefect. Not-a-reset doesn't include any requirements of notifications and it's likely WoM didn't WANTED to warn anyone it didn't NEEDED to.

That is incorrect. Tedd talked WoM into doing a minimal-change reset. But that's still a reset. "At its most technical, how magic works has not changed at all. What has changed is how much magic is being kept in check."

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6 hours ago, Don Edwards said:
On 8/4/2018 at 1:34 AM, hkmaly said:

Technically, Tedd talked out WoM from doing reset, which would include telling everyone as mandatory sideefect. Not-a-reset doesn't include any requirements of notifications and it's likely WoM didn't WANTED to warn anyone it didn't NEEDED to.

That is incorrect. Tedd talked WoM into doing a minimal-change reset. But that's still a reset. "At its most technical, how magic works has not changed at all. What has changed is how much magic is being kept in check."

Tedd talked WoM out from doing severe change. Magic still did a minimal changes. The mandatory sideefect of telling the seers is part of severe change. The word "reset" was never used by WoM itself ... or by the emissary ... hell, where did we get the word "reset" from? Did we mixed it up with immortals reseting?

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1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Tedd talked WoM out from doing severe change. Magic still did a minimal changes. The mandatory sideefect of telling the seers is part of severe change. The word "reset" was never used by WoM itself ... or by the emissary ... hell, where did we get the word "reset" from? Did we mixed it up with immortals reseting?

A severe change on its own wouldn't be a reset, but it would reset all wizards and other magic users in the same way that Nanase would have had to "reset" back to a white belt if she had chosen to join Greg's new martial arts class. Mind you she would probably get back to black belt pretty quick even if she couldn't use magic, but magic users would have needed to first figure out the new system and reawaken which might be very difficult to do without a Seer's help.

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