np NP, Monday October 31, 2016

[hkmaly 490]

6 minutes ago, Scotty said:

58 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

I repeat: in both parts of second case, it was HIS spell (well, not his own, but mark spell, but still). This kinds of spell USUALLY comes with way to turn it off immediately (unless you are fighting with energy build ups). So he didn't needed his dangerous rarity to end it.

Still, Tedd didn't believe that he should have been able to resist even his own spells, note he even resisted whatever it was that happened to Nanase's hair that affected Sarah's hair but not his. He was convinced that of the three of them, Sarah should have been the most likely to have resisted it.

He believed he wouldn't ever GET own spells. But, when he OBVIOUSLY get one ... not technically own, but still under his control ...

7 minutes ago, Scotty said:

So his being able to effortlessly resist and end enchantments would have to be related to his rarity. Also, the first case was an enchantment applied by the TFG so it wasn't really his own enchantment, so being able to end that enchantment would imply that he would be able to cancel enchantments applied by other mages

I completely agree with the FIRST case being him disenchanting himself and that it's related to his rarity. I just wanted to note that the SECOND case wasn't.

8 minutes ago, Scotty said:

unless of course the enchantment had a mind control effect that made him unaware that he was enchanted.

Hmmm ... this is actually good question. I don't think mind control will affect natural enchantment resistance, but the immediate disenchantment might be something he consciously need to activate, so mind control might prevent him doing that.

Of course, unless there is another part of his dangerous rarity which makes him immune to mind control or something

11 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Changing his default form was definitely the mark spell though.

Yes.

12 minutes ago, Scotty said:

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

The enchantment resistance is not conscious process. They were not aware because they failed resisting. In fact, it their enchantment resistance would be affected, they would likely use their own energy to PREVENT end of that enchantment (although ... they might not have enough energy for this to be noticeable).

That makes it a passive resistance which is what I was trying to get at, there's 2 ways to resist an enchantment, passively and actively, passive resistance is just natural resistance, it affects the natural duration of an enchant

Might help if you would be using Tedd's terminology instead of applying your own and trying to divide the resistance in other ways. Note that I'm not sure about how natural the enchantment resistance is.

14 minutes ago, Scotty said:

can be lowered if the person wasn't expecting to be enchanted

No, that's the "active" one which is affected by surprise.

15 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Not_Tengu, in doing his research on Nanase, likely expected Ellen to have some tricks so he made sure to be prepared for anything, and therefore easily resisted the beam.

At that point, ALL THREE were expecting there will be fight and therefore unlikely to be surprised. No specific "being prepared for anything" is needed, although it might help even more.

17 minutes ago, Scotty said:

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

To be more practical: Diane has no training so she would be affected by the punch just as others. But I don't believe Nanase or Ellen would.

If they drank the punch, Ellen's and Nanase's guard would have been down, they likely would have fallen victim to the enchantment as well, it may have required more energy to keep them enchanted but considering the ambient energy levels...

Hmmm ... you may be right, that would count as surprise. Unless "being counted as surprise" is incompatible with the "oblivious to gradual change" part ...

They would then resist more, but NotTengu might be able to counter that by pumping more energy to the spell.

19 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Mind you Not_Tengu wasn't counting on that happening, he wanted to confront Nanase, fighting and killing her would have been revenge on Noriko

He might've been counting on ELLEN drinking it.

20 minutes ago, Scotty said:

heck making the students look like Nanase might not have been intended to do anything to Nanase

On the other hand, getting them under his control might. I think Ellen's worry about being trapped there was justified. But, yes, the look was likely for Noriko, after all, he briefly considered making them look like Tedd, but it would interfere with other things he wanted to do with them ...

 

 

[Scotty 1,061]

1 minute ago, hkmaly said:

He believed he wouldn't ever GET own spells. But, when he OBVIOUSLY get one ... not technically own, but still under his control ...

Even he doesn't consider the mark spell counting as his own. And we don't even know if it's still possible for him to awaken because of this or if he'd even get new spells if he did.

Although, maybe his dangerous rarity isn't just that he'd be able to decipher how a new magic system works, but maybe he's already equipped to learn spells in the new system, but just can't learn new spells in the current system.

 

16 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Hmmm ... you may be right, that would count as surprise. Unless "being counted as surprise" is incompatible with the "oblivious to gradual change" part ...

They would then resist more, but NotTengu might be able to counter that by pumping more energy to the spell.

That's where the mind control aspect of Not_Tengu's enchantment comes in, hit em with that first and suddenly it's like "these are not the droids you are looking for" for the rest of it.

8 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

He might've been counting on ELLEN drinking it.

Doubt it, like I said, if he did his research, he would have known enough about Ellen that if Nanase wasn't going to be drinking, Ellen likely wouldn't be drinking either, he didn't really expect Charlotte to have been drinking as well, though he was probably still a bit disappointed that she didn't.

11 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

On the other hand, getting them under his control might. I think Ellen's worry about being trapped there was justified. But, yes, the look was likely for Noriko, after all, he briefly considered making them look like Tedd, but it would interfere with other things he wanted to do with them ...

Well, yeah, it would have been much more difficult if Ellen and Nanase were forced to fight off the students as well.

And yeah, Tedd would have had an even more psychological impact on Noriko, but wasn't practical in the long term for Not_tengu.

[hkmaly 490]

8 minutes ago, Scotty said:

32 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

He believed he wouldn't ever GET own spells. But, when he OBVIOUSLY get one ... not technically own, but still under his control ...

Even he doesn't consider the mark spell counting as his own. And we don't even know if it's still possible for him to awaken because of this or if he'd even get new spells if he did.

He doesn't, but he can control it as other people control their own spells.

And I think he IS awakened, it's just that his awakening works differently - won't show on the analysis want, won't give him spells, ...

9 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Although, maybe his dangerous rarity isn't just that he'd be able to decipher how a new magic system works, but maybe he's already equipped to learn spells in the new system, but just can't learn new spells in the current system.

Unlikely. That would mean it's already decided how the new magic system would look, and I think how it will look depends on what will trigger the change ...

12 minutes ago, Scotty said:

36 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

He might've been counting on ELLEN drinking it.

Doubt it, like I said, if he did his research, he would have known enough about Ellen that if Nanase wasn't going to be drinking, Ellen likely wouldn't be drinking either, he didn't really expect Charlotte to have been drinking as well, though he was probably still a bit disappointed that she didn't.

ELLEN didn't know she wouldn't be drinking few minutes before arriving.

13 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Well, yeah, it would have been much more difficult if Ellen and Nanase were forced to fight off the students as well.

Especially considering they would try to be extra careful to not harm them ...

15 minutes ago, Scotty said:

And yeah, Tedd would have had an even more psychological impact on Noriko, but wasn't practical in the long term for Not_tengu.

... I suppose by "long term" you mean starting the hour after he kill Nanase (according to his plan, I mean) and will go to "celebrate" it.

 

[Cpt. Obvious 73]

On den 4 november 2016 at 11:49 AM, The Old Hack said:

We've been over that. It is I who is made up and everything else that is real.

Well I have no opinion on that as I'm just a figment of my imagination.
 

[Scotty 1,061]

9 hours ago, hkmaly said:

ELLEN didn't know she wouldn't be drinking few minutes before arriving.

That's irrelevant to what Not_Tengu would believe, he would have known the legal drinking age and knew that Nanase and Ellen were underaged for it. If Nanase wasn't going to drink, chances are high that Ellen wouldn't drink.

After all, we know Ellen wouldn't want to make Nanase mad again after the hair incident, if Nanase said no to drinking, Ellen would go along.

 

[ijuin 572]

9 hours ago, Cpt. Obvious said:

Well I have no opinion on that as I'm just a figment of my imagination.
 

Your imagination? I thought that you were a figment of my imagination!

[hkmaly 490]

3 hours ago, Scotty said:

20 hours ago, hkmaly said:

ELLEN didn't know she wouldn't be drinking few minutes before arriving.

That's irrelevant to what Not_Tengu would believe, he would have known the legal drinking age and knew that Nanase and Ellen were underaged for it. If Nanase wasn't going to drink, chances are high that Ellen wouldn't drink.

Weeeeell ok, he might guessed correctly for totally incorrect reasons.

3 hours ago, Scotty said:

After all, we know Ellen wouldn't want to make Nanase mad again after the hair incident, if Nanase said no to drinking, Ellen would go along.

... I seriously hope that's not the direction their relationship is going.

[Scotty 1,061]

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

... I seriously hope that's not the direction their relationship is going.

It's a common sense though, Ellen agreed to abide by Mama Kitsune's conditions for being able to go to the party and Nanase asked that Ellen keep to that agreement, if Ellen went against that, I wouldn't blame Nanase for being mad.

 

Also it is canon that the hair incident had an effect on Ellen that continues to this day.

I should add though that I think both Nanase and Ellen learned something from the hair incident that neither want to repeat again, and are going to be more open with each other about stuff, so no I don't think the relationship is going in the direction you thought I was implying.

[hkmaly 490]

36 minutes ago, Scotty said:

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

... I seriously hope that's not the direction their relationship is going.

It's a common sense though, Ellen agreed to abide by Mama Kitsune's conditions for being able to go to the party and Nanase asked that Ellen keep to that agreement, if Ellen went against that, I wouldn't blame Nanase for being mad.

That was actually handled well: They talked and Ellen even joked about it.

The dangerous bit would be if Ellen stopped behaving naturally and started trying to predict what might make Nanase mad instead. That's how abusive relationship works.

39 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Also it is canon that the hair incident had an effect on Ellen that continues to this day.

Either she exaggerated or she didn't realized it wasn't really about hair.

40 minutes ago, Scotty said:

I should add though that I think both Nanase and Ellen learned something from the hair incident that neither want to repeat again, and are going to be more open with each other about stuff, so no I don't think the relationship is going in the direction you thought I was implying.

Yes, it seem that way so far.

Still, I think that correctly predicting if and why Ellen would or wouldn't be drinking on that party would require immortal. Especially considering Nanase's "I suddenly regret agreeing to no alcohol".

[Scotty 1,061]

2 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Still, I think that correctly predicting if and why Ellen would or wouldn't be drinking on that party would require immortal. Especially considering Nanase's "I suddenly regret agreeing to no alcohol".

I think anyone if they spent enough time observing a person, would learn enough about them to predict something with a good degree of accuracy. If Not_Tengu had been observing Nanase long enough, which considering the Meddling Teenagers were minor celebrities and probably have a few interviews and newspaper articles from the cases they solved, he might have learned enough to predict that even if Nanase regretted agreeing to no alcohol, she'd still be honour bound to not drink.

Same goes with Ashley. If you didn't know her already, you could probably observe her long enough to learn that she's into manga with transformation antics in them, you could then deduce that she has strong interest in transformations and guess that she would think it'd be cool if she could transform. Other observations of her being helpful to others would imply that she's good natured and wouldn't intentionally do anything to harm people, so you would expect that if she did have the ability to transform people, she likely wouldn't use it on people she didn't think would appreciate it, so no transformation sprees.

 

It's stalker level observations for sure, I think Not_Tengu would be stalker material though.

[hkmaly 490]

44 minutes ago, Scotty said:

It's stalker level observations for sure, I think Not_Tengu would be stalker material though.

While Not_Tengu would be stalker material, I don't think he ever personally stalked Nanase. Indirectly, looking at interviews and such, sure, but I don't think that would tell him enough.

On the other hand, he couldn't predicted they discover Diane is Susan's sister either, of course.

46 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Same goes with Ashley. If you didn't know her already, you could probably observe her long enough to learn that she's into manga with transformation antics in them, you could then deduce that she has strong interest in transformations and guess that she would think it'd be cool if she could transform. Other observations of her being helpful to others would imply that she's good natured and wouldn't intentionally do anything to harm people, so you would expect that if she did have the ability to transform people, she likely wouldn't use it on people she didn't think would appreciate it, so no transformation sprees.

I wouldn't be surprised if bad Tom tried stalking her to find out this.

[Scotty 1,061]

1 minute ago, hkmaly said:

On the other hand, he couldn't predicted they discover Diane is Susan's sister either, of course.

Diane was probably the only wild card of the four of them, she wasn't supposed to drink the punch, but if Jerry hadn't interfered, she would have been enchanted as well. Then again Jerry's interference was something Not_Tengu could not have predicted.

 

5 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

I wouldn't be surprised if bad Tom tried stalking her to find out this.

He apparently had been observing Susan long enough to know the right things to say when he first approached her. Of course it wouldn't have been hard in Susan's case considering her reputation as Hammer Queen and the review show, but still, I'd say he did it with all the girls he dated before Susan.

[hkmaly 490]

2 hours ago, Scotty said:

2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

On the other hand, he couldn't predicted they discover Diane is Susan's sister either, of course.

Diane was probably the only wild card of the four of them, she wasn't supposed to drink the punch, but if Jerry hadn't interfered, she would have been enchanted as well. Then again Jerry's interference was something Not_Tengu could not have predicted.

There was nothing "wild card" on her. Jerry's interference was unpredictable and without him, she would be sure to drink.

2 hours ago, Scotty said:

2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

I wouldn't be surprised if bad Tom tried stalking her to find out this.

He apparently had been observing Susan long enough to know the right things to say when he first approached her. Of course it wouldn't have been hard in Susan's case considering her reputation as Hammer Queen and the review show, but still, I'd say he did it with all the girls he dated before Susan.

He was probably only choosing girls who were relatively easy to target. He only tried Susan because despite her reputation, she was vulnerable. It might've worked if not for Justin.

[Scotty 1,061]

Just now, hkmaly said:

He was probably only choosing girls who were relatively easy to target. He only tried Susan because despite her reputation, she was vulnerable. It might've worked if not for Justin.

Yeah, Bad Tom might have known about Sarah, Elliot and Tedd, and considered them not a threat to his plan and he'd be right, neither of them were fully aware of what Susan was going through, mind you Bad Tom didn't know the exact reason Susan was feeling that way when he approached her but it was close enough.

Justin however, not only was from another school so Bad Tom wouldn't likely have known he existed, but him and Susan have had a special bond since Grace's birthday that they're close enough that they can tell each other things that they normally couldn't tell anyone else, because of that, Justin was able to pick up on things that were bothering Susan and help her deal with them.

[Tom Sewell 268]

Why are we discussing Bad Tom on an NP thread? BT has never been in an NP. Having served his function in Identity as an excuse to get Elliot together with Ashley and a distraction for Susan so she misses her chance to get together with Elliot, Bad Tom hasn't been seen or heard of since.

So what happened to Bad Tom? We can be pretty sure he wasn't eaten by the Spider Vampire because Bad Tom would have been a pretty substantial meal. Did he perhaps stroll through that gate the griffins have been using and become a dragon's lunch? Did he have a personal revelation and go off to a monastery we see his picture on a milk carton? 

[Scotty 1,061]

2 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

Why are we discussing Bad Tom on an NP thread? BT has never been in an NP. Having served his function in Identity as an excuse to get Elliot together with Ashley and a distraction for Susan so she misses her chance to get together with Elliot, Bad Tom hasn't been seen or heard of since.

He was an example of not needing to be an Immortal to determine what a person is like without actually going up and asking them. Specifically in reference to Pandora's analysis of Ashley and why she couldn't giver her any transformation spells.

[hkmaly 490]

3 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

distraction for Susan so she misses her chance to get together with Elliot

Susan didn't needed any. She wasn't ready to get together with Elliot anyway.

3 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

So what happened to Bad Tom? We can be pretty sure he wasn't eaten by the Spider Vampire because Bad Tom would have been a pretty substantial meal.

Those other vampires, either the ones which Andrea killed before or the ones still "alive", on the other hand ... we have no information about how many people they eaten.

[partner555 170]

10 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Those other vampires, either the ones which Andrea killed before or the ones still "alive", on the other hand ... we have no information about how many people they eaten.

Hasn't it been only a couple days between Bad Tom being thwarted and Elliot and Ashley's date?

[Scotty 1,061]

26 minutes ago, partner555 said:

Hasn't it been only a couple days between Bad Tom being thwarted and Elliot and Ashley's date?

I think Bad Tom's last appearance was on Thursday, the day before the card tournament. So roughly 3 days.

[hkmaly 490]

9 hours ago, Scotty said:

10 hours ago, partner555 said:

Hasn't it been only a couple days between Bad Tom being thwarted and Elliot and Ashley's date?

I think Bad Tom's last appearance was on Thursday, the day before the card tournament. So roughly 3 days.

... ok, feels longer Like ... years ...

Still, it is possible Andrea killed another vampire in Friday. After he killed Bad Tom on Thursday evening. Unlikely, but possible.

Also, while we know Identity takes three days, it could also started Monday, so might be Wednesday.

[Scotty 1,061]

12 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

... ok, feels longer Like ... years ...

Ha! Totally forgot that the comic itself was released on a Thursday as well hehe.

12 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Still, it is possible Andrea killed another vampire in Friday. After he killed Bad Tom on Thursday evening. Unlikely, but possible.

If it was a Thursday evening, there probably would have been mention of him not attending classes on Friday, though if it happened Friday, they wouldn't likely find out until Monday.

And Susan would likely be questioned about it considering she was witnessed having a confrontation with Tom before his disappearance.

12 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Also, while we know Identity takes three days, it could also started Monday, so might be Wednesday.

I always thought that them watching the review show episode happened Monday after school, and then it was Tuesday-Thursday for the rest of it.

Edit: Oh wait, nevermind, I just went through it again, the review show bit was 1 day, then the next day had Bad Tom approaching Susan, then the day after that was Susan shutting down Bad Tom. So yeah, 3 days.

[hkmaly 490]

27 minutes ago, Scotty said:

37 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Still, it is possible Andrea killed another vampire in Friday. After he killed Bad Tom on Thursday evening. Unlikely, but possible.

If it was a Thursday evening, there probably would have been mention of him not attending classes on Friday, though if it happened Friday, they wouldn't likely find out until Monday.

Not necessary. I mean, teachers would probably notice, but it might not get to main 8. Depending on his family situation and previous behaviour, him not showing in school for one day wouldn't necessarily cause immediate criminal investigation.

36 minutes ago, Scotty said:

And Susan would likely be questioned about it considering she was witnessed having a confrontation with Tom before his disappearance.

Eventually, yes. But first they will ask people who saw him last. And Susan is hammer queen - sure, she is known to hammer people, but those people shows no signs of being injured later. There may be lot of other girls who hate him (like Ashley), they would likely go over all of them and not just the last one. It is possible that after asking Mrs. Pompoms where her daughter is they wouldn't be so eager to ask Susan first, especially if they can just ask other girls but need to get court order to get over Mrs. Pompoms.

Example timeline: they started by asking Tom's family. They were unavailable and it was already evening when they contacted them and verified they don't know where Tom is either. They went over Tom's friend and few other people who saw him last, try to map his movement. On Saturday, assuming they even bother to work on Saturday but I guess it can be question of life or death so maybe yes, they try to contact Susan by showing up on Pompoms residence while Susan is with Tedd. Mrs. Pompoms give them piece of her mind and she might mention she went visit one of her friends but even if she knows the name she likely doesn't know where Tedd lives. So they decide to try later and pursue other alternatives meanwhile ... like Ashley, who is already on date with Elliot when they arrive, so another try later (alternatively, they try to locate her in mall and arrive when she already left and get caught up investigating griffin).

[Scotty 1,061]

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Not necessary. I mean, teachers would probably notice, but it might not get to main 8. Depending on his family situation and previous behaviour, him not showing in school for one day wouldn't necessarily cause immediate criminal investigation.

Eventually, yes. But first they will ask people who saw him last. And Susan is hammer queen - sure, she is known to hammer people, but those people shows no signs of being injured later. There may be lot of other girls who hate him (like Ashley), they would likely go over all of them and not just the last one. It is possible that after asking Mrs. Pompoms where her daughter is they wouldn't be so eager to ask Susan first, especially if they can just ask other girls but need to get court order to get over Mrs. Pompoms.

Example timeline: they started by asking Tom's family. They were unavailable and it was already evening when they contacted them and verified they don't know where Tom is either. They went over Tom's friend and few other people who saw him last, try to map his movement. On Saturday, assuming they even bother to work on Saturday but I guess it can be question of life or death so maybe yes, they try to contact Susan by showing up on Pompoms residence while Susan is with Tedd. Mrs. Pompoms give them piece of her mind and she might mention she went visit one of her friends but even if she knows the name she likely doesn't know where Tedd lives. So they decide to try later and pursue other alternatives meanwhile ... like Ashley, who is already on date with Elliot when they arrive, so another try later (alternatively, they try to locate her in mall and arrive when she already left and get caught up investigating griffin).

To be perfectly honest, I don't believe that Bad Tom has been killed by vampires or anyone. We may call him Bad Tom, but he ranks under misguided fool like Rich and Larry. Larry's already on the path to redeeming himself and when we last saw Bad Tom, he was rethinking his situation as well, whether he too attempts to redeem himself or not is another story, I don't think Dan would have him killed. If we never see him again, well, I guess we can draw whatever conclusions we want, but that would be fan fiction material.

[hkmaly 490]

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

We may call him Bad Tom, but he ranks under misguided fool like Rich and Larry. Larry's already on the path to redeeming himself and when we last saw Bad Tom, he was rethinking his situation as well

Are you implying Rich will be killed?

Yeah ... anyone we know being killed would surprise me a lot. Damien was, sure, but he was really special case. I just hope EGS won't became as bad as Batman or Superman with "no killing for any reason" ...

[Scotty 1,061]

43 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Yeah ... anyone we know being killed would surprise me a lot. Damien was, sure, but he was really special case. I just hope EGS won't became as bad as Batman or Superman with "no killing for any reason" ...

Technically, Damien wasn't killed, he committed suicide, which granted is a pretty strong topic. Dan has had a tough time dealing with how he shows death in EGS, Blaike is a perfect example of it. Mind you it's easier when it's dealing with monsters that are truly evil, like vampires and goo monsters. But for humans, it's more difficult. Damien was special because he was created to fulfill a prophecy which had evil intentions, but Grace still tried to get him to surrender and in the end, he chose death over captivity.