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hkmaly

Story Monday, November 19, 2018

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http://egscomics.com/comic/tsos-04

Even good movie could still leave lot to be discussed. At least some kind of movies. The "ok" movies might be worst in this regard ... if there are basically no obvious problems, but there is also nothing really interesting ... meanwhile, StarWars prequels are exact opposite. They have lot of problems, but it could've been great movies otherwise.

(Meanwhile, Abrams Star Trek movies could be good movies, but they are not Star Trek. They are barely sci-fi, due to lack of the "sci" part. And Justin loves them for all sort of wrong reasons.)

And yes, Sarah, you dated Grace and don't think readers will forget that.

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Chris Pine makes a good Star Trek captain, but he shouldn't be trying to usurp William Shatner as James T. Kirk--he should have been his own character. Really, the same could be said for the rest of the cast--they are a good cast but shouldn't have been made into replacements for the old cast.

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6 hours ago, hkmaly said:

And yes, Sarah, you dated Grace and don't think readers will forget that.

By the same logic, Elliot's dated Grace, and Tedd, and Sarah's dated Tedd, and Grace has dated Nanase and Ellen, and Tedd has dated Nanase and Ellen. And Susan was dating Elliot. there's a whole map of it. ;)

 

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3 hours ago, ijuin said:

Chris Pine makes a good Star Trek captain, but he shouldn't be trying to usurp William Shatner as James T. Kirk--he should have been his own character. Really, the same could be said for the rest of the cast--they are a good cast but shouldn't have been made into replacements for the old cast.

Ideally, these iconic characters played by actors who are now deceased would be allowed to rest in peace. However, if someone new had to play them, I think the cast they got weren't a bad choice for it (at least in the first movie; I like Benedict Cumberbatch but he was totally wrong for Khan), the real problem was that the writers weren't really writing the classic characters, they were writing vaguely similar characters with the same names.

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13 hours ago, ijuin said:

Chris Pine makes a good Star Trek captain, but he shouldn't be trying to usurp William Shatner as James T. Kirk--he should have been his own character. Really, the same could be said for the rest of the cast--they are a good cast but shouldn't have been made into replacements for the old cast.

Wouldn't save the freezing fusion or warp teleport.

The action in those movies is good. The science is not. Star Trek also had some issues, starting how easy is to get to past if it's convenient, but nothing this bad.

12 hours ago, Scotty said:
18 hours ago, hkmaly said:

And yes, Sarah, you dated Grace and don't think readers will forget that.

By the same logic, Elliot's dated Grace, and Tedd, and Sarah's dated Tedd, and Grace has dated Nanase and Ellen, and Tedd has dated Nanase and Ellen. And Susan was dating Elliot. there's a whole map of it.

Yes. And readers are not forgetting that either as you see.

 

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16 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

Ideally, these iconic characters played by actors who are now deceased would be allowed to rest in peace. However, if someone new had to play them, I think the cast they got weren't a bad choice for it (at least in the first movie; I like Benedict Cumberbatch but he was totally wrong for Khan), the real problem was that the writers weren't really writing the classic characters, they were writing vaguely similar characters with the same names.

I think that the banter between Spock and McCoy when they are alone together on the planet surface during "Beyond" definitely captured the characters' relationship well.

But yes, the new cast should have been their own characters. We should have had a new ship and crew who had their own story.

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8 hours ago, ijuin said:

I think that the banter between Spock and McCoy when they are alone together on the planet surface during "Beyond" definitely captured the characters' relationship well.

Well, I may have been overstating the difference when I said "vaguely similar". There were a number of moments across all three movies where the classic personalities were captured very well, the problem is that there were other moments where they acted in ways I could never imagine the classic characters acting. Given that it was presented as an alternate universe, I almost could have forgiven that, if it weren't for the fact that they presented it as a simple "one change in the timeline led to all these later differences" situation (I suppose this is debatable, but I didn't feel the change was far enough back to justify the level of changes seen), and far worse that most of those changes made the characters less likable.

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2 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

 "one change in the timeline led to all these later differences" situation (I suppose this is debatable, but I didn't feel the change was far enough back to justify the level of changes seen), and far worse that most of those changes made the characters less likable.

That one change happened when Kirk was born though, so one could say that not having a father around made him more wild? I guess that was evident in the 2009 movie though. The destruction of the Kelvin would have had an effect on other aspects of the timeline as well which affected the lives of the other characters. some more extreme than others depending on people's reaction to the event.

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4 hours ago, Scotty said:
7 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

 "one change in the timeline led to all these later differences" situation (I suppose this is debatable, but I didn't feel the change was far enough back to justify the level of changes seen), and far worse that most of those changes made the characters less likable.

That one change happened when Kirk was born though, so one could say that not having a father around made him more wild? I guess that was evident in the 2009 movie though. The destruction of the Kelvin would have had an effect on other aspects of the timeline as well which affected the lives of the other characters. some more extreme than others depending on people's reaction to the event.

Destroying ship full of people definitely SHOULD have changed lot of other things and those changes would cause other changes ... and depending on what StarFleet though about that destruction, it could for example change how much weapons Enterprise had due to strategy change ... obviously, there will be MUCH more other changes due to destruction of Vulkan, but that happened later.

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And by that definition, I have "dated" some of my friends.

When there is enough bantering during the whole duration, that is just good "good friends" material.

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On 11/20/2018 at 1:18 PM, Scotty said:

That one change happened when Kirk was born though, so one could say that not having a father around made him more wild? I guess that was evident in the 2009 movie though. The destruction of the Kelvin would have had an effect on other aspects of the timeline as well which affected the lives of the other characters. some more extreme than others depending on people's reaction to the event.

I believe that people's personalities are the result of a combination of "nature" and "nurture"; the new timeline completely changed Kirk's "nurture" (though I was never very clear on what happened to his mother), but it shouldn't have altered his "nature". And maybe that's all that happened but (and I'm going entirely on intuition and emotion for this judgement) the difference between Classic Kirk and Kelvin Kirk feel like more than just a change in "nurture" to me.

And while everyone touched by Starfleet would have their lives changed somewhat, it seems to me that barring unusual chains of events the effect of the loss of the Kelvin on those who had no friends or loved ones on board shouldn't have been all that great in the long run (at least as far as personality goes). It's been years since I last watched the first of the reboot Trek movies so I'm probably forgetting some things, but I don't understand how the alteration to the timeline led to the changes in the personalities of the cast (particularly Spock and Scotty).

Of course, all of this is subjective, and depends on what sort of things you believe happened off-screen, hence my disclaimer above that the changes being too much was debatable.

On 11/20/2018 at 6:03 PM, hkmaly said:

Destroying ship full of people definitely SHOULD have changed lot of other things and those changes would cause other changes ... and depending on what StarFleet though about that destruction, it could for example change how much weapons Enterprise had due to strategy change ... obviously, there will be MUCH more other changes due to destruction of Vulkan, but that happened later.

Well yes, but I was specifically referring to changes in personality. And if those changes in personality are the result of a chain of events leading from the Kelvin's destruction, I want to know what that chain is. I know that's a lot to ask from a movie (and an action movie at that, though that's an issue in itself - I don't watch Star Trek for action) but that's how my mind works.

Frankly, I would have been a lot more forgiving of the movie if they hadn't tried to present it as an alteration of the classic timeline, but had made it a complete reboot.

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55 minutes ago, ChronosCat said:

And while everyone touched by Starfleet would have their lives changed somewhat, it seems to me that barring unusual chains of events the effect of the loss of the Kelvin on those who had no friends or loved ones on board shouldn't have been all that great in the long run (at least as far as personality goes). It's been years since I last watched the first of the reboot Trek movies so I'm probably forgetting some things, but I don't understand how the alteration to the timeline led to the changes in the personalities of the cast (particularly Spock and Scotty).

While not supported by actual canon, my own understanding was that the experiment with Archer's beagle either didn't happened in original reality or ended better, therefore he did not ended on Delta Vega. Maybe someone who was on Kevin talked him out of it or provided other test subject? That difference COULD result in personality change.

No idea about Spock, however. Growing on Vulcan should shield him from stuff like this.

1 hour ago, ChronosCat said:

Well yes, but I was specifically referring to changes in personality. And if those changes in personality are the result of a chain of events leading from the Kelvin's destruction, I want to know what that chain is. I know that's a lot to ask from a movie (and an action movie at that, though that's an issue in itself - I don't watch Star Trek for action) but that's how my mind works.

... and yes, I would definitely like to see the complete chains. Also, I would like to see more about where was Nero all that time. But obviously, too much for action movie. At least there was the comics explaining where Nero got his ship.

1 hour ago, ChronosCat said:

Frankly, I would have been a lot more forgiving of the movie if they hadn't tried to present it as an alteration of the classic timeline, but had made it a complete reboot.

For the first movie, maybe. The second movie was too much even for reboot ...

... also, I really don't like that it was specifically Romulans and Vulcans who lost their planets (in original and altered timeline, respectively).

 

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The comparison I've heard is to Shakespeare's plays.  The people who saw their very first performances probably couldn't imagine their favorite characters played by any other actors.  Over time, we've seen tons of people play those roles, with different interpretations of the characters, and with directors and producers translating them from their original settings to The Wild West, or to modern-day New York street gangs, or to a high school clique.....

I enjoyed the 1979 Superman movie, I enjoyed Lois & Clark, and for a while early on I enjoyed Smallville.  Same characters, different interpretations of them.  We don't have to vow loyalty to one version, and then reject everything that comes after.

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1 hour ago, CritterKeeper said:

The comparison I've heard is to Shakespeare's plays.  The people who saw their very first performances probably couldn't imagine their favorite characters played by any other actors.  Over time, we've seen tons of people play those roles, with different interpretations of the characters, and with directors and producers translating them from their original settings to The Wild West, or to modern-day New York street gangs, or to a high school clique.....

I enjoyed the 1979 Superman movie, I enjoyed Lois & Clark, and for a while early on I enjoyed Smallville.  Same characters, different interpretations of them.  We don't have to vow loyalty to one version, and then reject everything that comes after.

We don't. I gave new StarTrek chance with first movie. It got worse. Sure, different doesn't always mean worse, but sometimes it does ; and new StarTrek missed everything which made StarTrek StarTrek.

... on the other hand, those high school versions of Romeo and Julie are crap too.

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On 12/1/2018 at 0:43 AM, CritterKeeper said:

I enjoyed the 1979 Superman movie, I enjoyed Lois & Clark, and for a while early on I enjoyed Smallville.  Same characters, different interpretations of them.  We don't have to vow loyalty to one version, and then reject everything that comes after.

I love many (but not all) versions of TMNT, and many (but not all) versions of Transformers. And I don't have a problem with the idea of different versions of Star Trek, it just so happens the Kelvin Timeline is a version that isn't really to my taste (though as I mentioned before, I don't have a problem with the actors, just the writing).

...I'm also really annoyed by the whole "this is the same world as before, just completely changed" thing they tried to pull with Star Trek. It makes me automatically want to hate the new timeline for "destroying" the one I came to love (I've tried to work past that, and the fact that new stuff relating to the original timeline is still coming out helps,  but why'd they think it was a good idea to do something so likely to push old fans' buttons in the first place?). And it also makes me more inclined to compare it to the original it's supposedly continuing/replacing, whereas if it were a complete reboot I might have been more willing to judge it on it's own merits.

(Incidentally, the Archie Sonic the Hedgehog comic did a similar partial-reboot at one point, and it annoyed me too, but the new timeline managed to win me over anyway. And I was a lot more into the Archie Sonic comics than I was ever into Star Trek.)

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1 hour ago, ChronosCat said:

I love many (but not all) versions of TMNT

... I though there are just two - the one I saw (several seasons of) and the newer one ... five already?

1 hour ago, ChronosCat said:

...I'm also really annoyed by the whole "this is the same world as before, just completely changed" thing they tried to pull with Star Trek. It makes me automatically want to hate the new timeline for "destroying" the one I came to love (I've tried to work past that, and the fact that new stuff relating to the original timeline is still coming out helps,  but why'd they think it was a good idea to do something so likely to push old fans' buttons in the first place?). And it also makes me more inclined to compare it to the original it's supposedly continuing/replacing, whereas if it were a complete reboot I might have been more willing to judge it on it's own merits.

Yes. Also, in case of time-travel based reboots, it makes sense than fans want to see how and why exactly stuff changed. But they barely touch it.

I think with that first movie, they wanted to make something which would attract both Star Trek fans and new audience. Later they find out those goals are not compatible, at least in the case of the kind of new audience there were aiming at, and sacrificed the fans.

1 hour ago, ChronosCat said:

(Incidentally, the Archie Sonic the Hedgehog comic did a similar partial-reboot at one point, and it annoyed me too, but the new timeline managed to win me over anyway. And I was a lot more into the Archie Sonic comics than I was ever into Star Trek.)

Never saw the comics (although I think I saw few anime episodes) but looking at the description, that was much worse than what Star Trek did, closer to the multiverse catastrophes DC and Marvel are using for rebooting. On the other hand, it was result of lawsuit, Star Trek doesn't have such excuse.

(Note: It's funny how mad "scientists" (actually engineers) are so sure their devices work as they plan to despite never trying anything similar ; it's obvious Super Genesis Wave didn't worked as expected, as Archie Sonic Online still exists.)

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7 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Never saw the comics (although I think I saw few anime episodes) but looking at the description, that was much worse than what Star Trek did, closer to the multiverse catastrophes DC and Marvel are using for rebooting. On the other hand, it was result of lawsuit, Star Trek doesn't have such excuse.

Yeah, their only choices if they were going to continue publishing Sonic at all were a partial reboot or a total reboot (many of the characters that needed to be removed were too integral to the mythology to just "forget to mention" for very long, and the writer never got a "you'll have to stop using these characters in x-number of issues" notice). It hurt, but I understood why they did it. (It helped that I was following the behind-the-scenes drama as best I could, so I knew there was legal trouble for a while before the reboot.)

Still, the way they did it left something to be desired. The new timeline started mid-story, with situations resembling where they left off before the reboot, and some of the characters actually remembered the old timeline (though that plot point was quickly dropped). I would have preferred more of a clean break (at least so long as they were able to keep all the legacy characters from the 90s cartoons; I'm a fan of Sonic more for those characters than for the game cast).

7 hours ago, hkmaly said:

(Note: It's funny how mad "scientists" (actually engineers) are so sure their devices work as they plan to despite never trying anything similar ; it's obvious Super Genesis Wave didn't worked as expected, as Archie Sonic Online still exists.)

Well, if you count an officially licensed product and a fan creation as part of the same continuity... While I enjoy a lot of fan works, I usually separate them in my head from the originals.

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14 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

I love many (but not all) versions of TMNT

I liked the original Eastman and Laird comics.  When they moved to TV and turned into surfer dudes I kinda lost interest.  Since I don't usually watch or read that sort of thing, it was more the original version being an anomaly, rather than having any problem with the rest of it.

Quote

and many (but not all) versions of Transformers.

Now I'm really feeling like an old grump.  I started watching with Transformers: The Movie, back when I had time free in the afternoon too watch the show, and was busy when it was on for all the other "generations."

 

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8 hours ago, ChronosCat said:
15 hours ago, hkmaly said:

(Note: It's funny how mad "scientists" (actually engineers) are so sure their devices work as they plan to despite never trying anything similar ; it's obvious Super Genesis Wave didn't worked as expected, as Archie Sonic Online still exists.)

Well, if you count an officially licensed product and a fan creation as part of the same continuity... While I enjoy a lot of fan works, I usually separate them in my head from the originals.

I'm more flexible. In this case, it's OBVIOUS the fan creation is closer to that "deleted" continuity than the new official product.

Also, some works spans multiple continuities. Post-reboot Star Trek, for example, would be new, separate continuity no matter it's quality - because there would ALWAYS be option to write something in old continuity, even not counting fact that there already WAS stuff happening in old continuity after the point where Spock supposedly left - I mean, already written stuff. Sometimes with Spock. Sometimes with Data. Also, see Susan's rant about movies being in different continuity ...

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6 minutes ago, Don Edwards said:
Quote

Also, some works spans multiple continuities

81px-Elftrek1.jpg

Yeah, if you count stuff like this I suppose Star Trek spawns at least few dozens. If you add fanworks, hundreds.

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17 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

I liked the original Eastman and Laird comics.  When they moved to TV and turned into surfer dudes I kinda lost interest.  Since I don't usually watch or read that sort of thing, it was more the original version being an anomaly, rather than having any problem with the rest of it.

I discovered TMNT thanks to the 87 cartoon, then followed them to the movies, video games, etc. of the early 90s. I was a bit of a die-hard fan of the show, watching it until the very end (although admittedly there was a period during season 7 when I grew bored with it and wound up missing some episodes). My favorite version however was the Archie TMNT Adventures comic, which used the first season of the show as a jumping off point but then went in a very different (and eventually relatively mature) direction.

I wasn't able to track down any issues of the Mirage version until the late 90s, and I actually wound up collecting the Mirage and Image versions at the same time. However, between having a small allowance and living an hour's drive from the nearest comic shop years before I got a license, I wasn't able to get my hands on very many of either. By the time those things had changed, I had other priorities. Recently, I finally got the IDW collected editions of the Mirage TMNT, so at least I have the highlights of the series (as a completionist it bugs me that they skipped some issues, and I am not looking forward to the prices I'll likely have to pay if I want to get my hands on the ones they skipped). It is a really good series, but there's too much nostalgia around the '87 and Adventures versions for any other version to topple them from the top of my list of favorites.

I really enjoyed the 2003 series and the 2012 series, hated "The Next Mutation" (though I've been toying with seeing if I now find it so-bad-its-good), hated the recent live action + CGI movies, and decided after one episode of Rise of the Turtles that it's not for me.

18 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

Now I'm really feeling like an old grump.  I started watching with Transformers: The Movie, back when I had time free in the afternoon too watch the show, and was busy when it was on for all the other "generations."

I started watching with season 1, and watched through to the end of the original series. I loved Transformers the Movie, and watched it countless times over the years - so much so that my original VHS copy wore out. In fact, I'm sure nostalgia plays a large part in it, but it still vies for my favorite movie of all time with Princess Mononoke.

I wasn't able to see many episodes of Beast Wars when it was on TV due to not getting a channel that played it, though I liked what I saw, and liked it even more when I got it on DVD as an adult. I saw one episode of the old "Robots in Disguise" cartoon and thought it was horrible. I watched the premier of Armada and was disappointed they hadn't written it to appeal to adult Transformers fans like I had become at that point; I caught a few episodes here and there but was never able to get into it. The only other Transformers show that has played on a station I had access to at the time was Prime (and only the first part of the first season), which looked pretty good.

I tolerated the first two Michael Bay movies, disliked the third and fourth, and on the basis of that trend didn't even bother seeing the fifth. (I do love the score to that series though.)

Most of my focus in recent years in regards to Transformers has been on the continuities I missed out on as a kid. I got the IDW collections of the Marvel comics (they were fun but tried to pack too many characters and too much plot in too few issues) and am now working on the UK comics (which are a huge improvement over the US ones) and the Transformers anime from the late 80s  (Headmasters, Super God Master Force, and Victory).

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15 hours ago, ChronosCat said:
On 12/2/2018 at 10:36 PM, CritterKeeper said:

I liked the original Eastman and Laird comics.  When they moved to TV and turned into surfer dudes I kinda lost interest.  Since I don't usually watch or read that sort of thing, it was more the original version being an anomaly, rather than having any problem with the rest of it.

I discovered TMNT thanks to the 87 cartoon, then followed them to the movies, video games, etc. of the early 90s. I was a bit of a die-hard fan of the show, watching it until the very end (although admittedly there was a period during season 7 when I grew bored with it and wound up missing some episodes). My favorite version however was the Archie TMNT Adventures comic, which used the first season of the show as a jumping off point but then went in a very different (and eventually relatively mature) direction.

For long time, my options for seeing series was limited to what was just on TV (and it was much less here than in US). Until I discovered internet and quickly downloaded more of what just was in TV - which was, specifically, XMen - first series then comics. I got other interests before I read all I downloaded, actually. If I discovered internet when Transformers or TMNT were on, I might've been fan of that instead ...

... interests including webcomics, which proved more interesting than average XMen issue. Also, I AM able to read whole webcomic. Reading whole XMen? Impossible. (also completionist)

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