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Pharaoh RutinTutin

Story, Wednesday January 30, 2019

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http://egscomics.com/comic/tsos-33

Ok, Sam wants to talk to Grace.

If Grace can maintain the dialogue long enough to establish the trust, she should be able to arrange a meeting for Sam with people who have a bit of experience with the concepts of Gender-Meh, Gender-Fluid, and Trans-Gender as well as means of addressing those issues outside mainstream medicine or psychology.

Or is Sam being a manipulative Bad-Tom who is trying to have his way with Grace and Sarah and who-knows-who else?

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31 minutes ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

If Grace can maintain the dialogue long enough to establish the trust, she should be able to arrange a meeting for Sam with people who have a bit of experience with the concepts of Gender-Meh, Gender-Fluid, and Trans-Gender as well as means of addressing those issues outside mainstream medicine or psychology.

I'm sure Sam would be excited about meeting Sarah's ex and Grace's boyfriend. And who would be the trans-gender one?

And I don't think anything Tedd can do would be worth the risk compared to the mark he already has.

 

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3 hours ago, hkmaly said:

And I don't think anything Tedd can do would be worth the risk compared to the mark he already has.

Discuss gender identity, perhaps? The introduction isn't necessarily to get anything magical done -- as you pointed out, Sam is already pretty much set as far as magic goes.

Sam's real problem lies in him still not feeling ready to come out. This makes me worry about his family and its attitudes. :(

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2 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

Sam's real problem lies in him still not feeling ready to come out. This makes me worry about his family and its attitudes. :(

Quite possible, but it might also be possibly that Sam expects the worst, probably based on hearing about others having bad experiences.

Rhoda assumed that Diane wouldn't want anything to do with her if she found out she was gay based on hearing Diane call Justin "defective", we know how that turned out.

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5 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Quite possible, but it might also be possibly that Sam expects the worst, probably based on hearing about others having bad experiences.

You will forgive me for not being that optimistic in today's society.

5 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Rhoda assumed that Diane wouldn't want anything to do with her if she found out she was gay based on hearing Diane call Justin "defective", we know how that turned out.

And there is also Nanase's mother and her passive-aggressive homophobia as well as Mr. Verres and his insistence that Tedd's genderfluidity isn't healthy for him... which has undermined Tedd's trust for him to the point where he is starting to keep secrets from him.

And these are both milder examples.

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Just now, The Old Hack said:

You will forgive me for not being that optimistic in today's society.

Understandable, heck current headlines include a serial killer on trial for killing several members of a gay community, as well as a gay black man getting beat to within an inch of his life and having bleach poured on him. That kind of stuff is just horrifying.

1 minute ago, The Old Hack said:

And there is also Nanase's mother and her passive-aggressive homophobia as well as Mr. Verres and his insistence that Tedd's genderfluidity isn't healthy for him... which has undermined Tedd's trust for him to the point where he is starting to keep secrets from him.

And these are both milder examples.

True, though I'm still not convinced either of those is true hatred towards the subject and that communication would lead to understanding and acceptance, In Edward's case he doesn't even know that Tedd's genderfluid, he's assuming Tedd's just playing with the forms, but there isn't really any difference between ignorance and transphobia when the message perceived is the same.

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56 minutes ago, Scotty said:

but there isn't really any difference between ignorance and transphobia when the message perceived is the same.

This is the key problem and it really worries me. It is of course possible that Sam's family is more tolerant than he fears -- but that does not lessen the effects of the fear and the stress he experiences. :(

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1 minute ago, The Old Hack said:

This is the key problem and it really worries me. It is of course possible that Sam's family is more tolerant than he fears -- but that does not lessen the effects of the fear and the stress he experiences. :(

Lack of communication leads to assumptions. If his parents never talked about LGBT subjects, there's nothing for Sam to gauge how they might react to him coming out, that can be just as fearful as hearing them say negative things about the subject.

And if they did talk about it. Even something like "those poor people, I'm glad we don't have to deal with any of that" wouldn't necessarily be transphobic but now Sam's got the idea that if his parents knew, he'd be putting them in emotional distress over his safety.

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2 hours ago, Scotty said:

there isn't really any difference between ignorance and transphobia when the message perceived is the same.

There's one big difference, the ignorant can learn.  The transphobic think they already know, and thus have to unlearn a lot before they can learn.

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2 minutes ago, CritterKeeper said:

There's one big difference, the ignorant can learn.  The transphobic think they already know, and thus have to unlearn a lot before they can learn.

Exactly, we don't know for sure if Nanase's mom is ignorant or homophobic, her comments initially were certainly homophic but at last we saw her she could have realized that she was wrong to say that Nanase was going through a phase.

We don't know the exact context of Edward's comments, they come off as transphobic but there could be other reasons he'd say them and he could be ignorant either way as well.

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10 hours ago, The Old Hack said:
14 hours ago, hkmaly said:

And I don't think anything Tedd can do would be worth the risk compared to the mark he already has.

Discuss gender identity, perhaps? The introduction isn't necessarily to get anything magical done -- as you pointed out, Sam is already pretty much set as far as magic goes.

Sam's real problem lies in him still not feeling ready to come out. This makes me worry about his family and its attitudes. :(

Sorry, I meant "do" as a opposite of "talk". I realize that talking is more useful than it seems at company meeting, but though that Pharaoh RutinTutin is suggesting Tedd will help him with TF gun or watches.

8 hours ago, Scotty said:
10 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

Sam's real problem lies in him still not feeling ready to come out. This makes me worry about his family and its attitudes. :(

Quite possible, but it might also be possibly that Sam expects the worst, probably based on hearing about others having bad experiences.

Rhoda assumed that Diane wouldn't want anything to do with her if she found out she was gay based on hearing Diane call Justin "defective", we know how that turned out.

I'm pretty sure calling Justin "defective" was not the only reason. Diane had certainly lot of other opportunities to show her opinion on Rick dumping her for a man.

7 hours ago, Scotty said:
8 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

You will forgive me for not being that optimistic in today's society.

Understandable, heck current headlines include a serial killer on trial for killing several members of a gay community, as well as a gay black man getting beat to within an inch of his life and having bleach poured on him. That kind of stuff is just horrifying.

7 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

And there is also Nanase's mother and her passive-aggressive homophobia as well as Mr. Verres and his insistence that Tedd's genderfluidity isn't healthy for him... which has undermined Tedd's trust for him to the point where he is starting to keep secrets from him.

And these are both milder examples.

Those are milder examples because EGS is NOT today's society. Dan is not writing realistically in this regard and his world is much nicer than ours. On the other hand, not SO nice to this not being problem at all.

4 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:
7 hours ago, Scotty said:

there isn't really any difference between ignorance and transphobia when the message perceived is the same.

There's one big difference, the ignorant can learn.  The transphobic think they already know, and thus have to unlearn a lot before they can learn.

I'm not sure how much they need to unlearn but based on how hard it is it must be a lot.

4 hours ago, Scotty said:

Exactly, we don't know for sure if Nanase's mom is ignorant or homophobic, her comments initially were certainly homophic but at last we saw her she could have realized that she was wrong to say that Nanase was going through a phase.

Nanase's mom is also Machiavelian. I wouldn't be surprised if she would pretending homophobia because she wants Nanase further away from Tedd (which she likely realized is futile now) or because she needs kids (and doesn't realize this is doable with magic and/or Uryuom eggs).

4 hours ago, Scotty said:

We don't know the exact context of Edward's comments, they come off as transphobic but there could be other reasons he'd say them and he could be ignorant either way as well.

I still think his concerns that TF gun has sideefects are if not well-founded at least legitimate. Sure, it seems that Tedd was always genderfluid and Elliot always gender-meh, but I'm also sure if the TF gun (or more exactly the CMD) made people more genderfluid Uryuoms would interpret it as feature.

 

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2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Sorry, I meant "do" as a opposite of "talk". I realize that talking is more useful than it seems at company meeting, but though that Pharaoh RutinTutin is suggesting Tedd will help him with TF gun or watches.

Oh, I see! I apologise if I came across as nitpicking.

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36 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Nanase's mom is also Machiavelian. I wouldn't be surprised if she would pretending homophobia because she wants Nanase further away from Tedd (which she likely realized is futile now) or because she needs kids (and doesn't realize this is doable with magic and/or Uryuom eggs).

I dunno what Mama Kitsune knows about Grace or that Edward's career involves working with alien, she at least knows that Edward deals in magic and monsters despite what she's told Nanase. And I doubt she's been trying to distance Nanase from Tedd based on her reaction to Tedd dating.

Some of Mama Kitsune's homophobia would stem from fear of Nanase breaking tradition if Mama Kitsune was raised to understand the importance of continuing the family line and all that. She might not think homosexuals is insanity*, but it's a disruption of the kind of family she thought she had so the reaction isn't much different.

*And yeah we haven't seen Ms Pompoms in a while but the statement she made seemed to imply homophobia towards males only but that could be the result of having a cheating husband, which kinda matches up with Diane's perceived homophobia as a result of her experience with Rick since it apparently only really applied to men and she was just in denial (or maybe afraid of what Lucy and Rhoda might think of her) about liking girls.

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2 minutes ago, Scotty said:

homophobia towards males only

I would rather style that heterophobia. If males stuck with males and women with women Mrs. Pompoms would no doubt be quite content with the outcome.

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3 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

I would rather style that heterophobia. If males stuck with males and women with women Mrs. Pompoms would no doubt be quite content with the outcome.

It'd be a good thing they're figuring out how to create babies through other methods or else that outcome would be the end of us.

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3 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

I would rather style that heterophobia. If males stuck with males and women with women Mrs. Pompoms would no doubt be quite content with the outcome.

And I was thinking more along the lines of masculopathy - she hates men. Not fears (so not a phobia) but hates. Gay men are (I'm guessing she thinks) a bit less manly, so a bit less hated.

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5 minutes ago, Scotty said:

It'd be a good thing they're figuring out how to create babies through other methods or else that outcome would be the end of us.

I do not think you have to worry. Somehow it does not seem like a very likely outcome.

6 minutes ago, Don Edwards said:

And I was thinking more along the lines of masculopathy - she hates men. Not fears (so not a phobia) but hates. Gay men are (I'm guessing she thinks) a bit less manly, so a bit less hated.

That works, too.

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20 minutes ago, Scotty said:
2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Nanase's mom is also Machiavelian. I wouldn't be surprised if she would pretending homophobia because she wants Nanase further away from Tedd (which she likely realized is futile now) or because she needs kids (and doesn't realize this is doable with magic and/or Uryuom eggs).

I dunno what Mama Kitsune knows about Grace or that Edward's career involves working with alien, she at least knows that Edward deals in magic and monsters despite what she's told Nanase. And I doubt she's been trying to distance Nanase from Tedd based on her reaction to Tedd dating.

She knows quite a lot of details, IMHO. But it's true that may not include the Uryuom.

And if she didn't tried to distance Nanase from Tedd, Edward wouldn't have problems recognizing her. Sure, now when she realized it's futile ...

... ok, yes, the "need child" and "traditional family" makes more sense as explanation. Also, it's consistent with the fact that Mama Kitsune don't really mind Nanase hanging out with Ellen, as long as it's "just a phase".

11 minutes ago, Scotty said:
16 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

I would rather style that heterophobia. If males stuck with males and women with women Mrs. Pompoms would no doubt be quite content with the outcome.

It'd be a good thing they're figuring out how to create babies through other methods or else that outcome would be the end of us.

By "they" you mean Tedd and Grace?

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1 minute ago, hkmaly said:

... ok, yes, the "need child" and "traditional family" makes more sense as explanation.

I seem to remember once reading that one reason Mrs. Kitsune resents her sister is that she left her husband and child. I suspect she feels very protective of her nephew even as she is being standoffish to her brother-in-law.

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1 minute ago, The Old Hack said:
4 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

... ok, yes, the "need child" and "traditional family" makes more sense as explanation.

I seem to remember once reading that one reason Mrs. Kitsune resents her sister is that she left her husband and child. I suspect she feels very protective of her nephew even as she is being standoffish to her brother-in-law.

... yeah. It makes more sense if she wanted to distance Nanase not from Tedd but from Edward Verres specifically.

(Although I'm not sure if this is canon or reader speculation. There doesn't seem to be any details here.)

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28 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

I seem to remember once reading that one reason Mrs. Kitsune resents her sister is that she left her husband and child. I suspect she feels very protective of her nephew even as she is being standoffish to her brother-in-law.

24 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

... yeah. It makes more sense if she wanted to distance Nanase not from Tedd but from Edward Verres specifically.

I don't really think Mama Kistune faults Edward with what happened, she does seem to have a dislike for Adrian (whom we know blames himself for the divorce) and has basically disowned her sister for abandoning Tedd.

34 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Edward wouldn't have problems recognizing her. Sure, now when she realized it's futile ...

There might be other reasons Mama Kitsune's family hadn't interacted with Edward and Tedd for a long time, maybe Mama Kistune felt shame for what her sister did and wanted to give Edward space, or maybe Tedd's emotional state at the time was worse that shown and there was fear that Tedd would be reminded of his mother whenever they visited. They might have been relieved when that wasn't the case when Nanase and Tedd started interacting after the goo fight.

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We know that Nanase's mother knows far more about magic, Tedd, Adrian Raven, and what Edward Vere's department at the FBI actually does than she has ever admitted to Nanase.

She could have minimized contact between Edward and Nanase, instead she let Nanase become Tedd's tutor.  She could have kept Nanase out of contact with Adrian just by sending her to the school on the other side of town, instead she let Nanase into his class where Adrian would take an interest in  Nanase, just like he did with her and Noriko.

We don't know why Nanase's mother does not appear to be an active practitioner of magic.  But for what ever reason, she is encouraging (or at least allowing) Nanase to pursue those fields without actually acknowledging the effort.

My guess for a long time has been that Mrs Kitsune is attempting to leave her daughter a way out of magic into a "normal" life.  And her understanding of "Normal" does not include lesbian relationships.

So how much of Mrs Kitsune's negative reaction to homosexuality is her genuine belief, and how much is a show to allow her daughter to be "Normal"?

?

Having said all that, it seems that Nanase has long passed the point where exaggerated morality plays would be the most effective teaching tool.

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4 minutes ago, Scotty said:
1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Edward wouldn't have problems recognizing her. Sure, now when she realized it's futile ...

There might be other reasons Mama Kitsune's family hadn't interacted with Edward and Tedd for a long time, maybe Mama Kistune felt shame for what her sister did and wanted to give Edward space, or maybe Tedd's emotional state at the time was worse that shown and there was fear that Tedd would be reminded of his mother whenever they visited. They might have been relieved when that wasn't the case when Nanase and Tedd started interacting after the goo fight.

Hmmm ... Tedd was so withdrawn Nanase though he's mute. It didn't needed to be worse than that. If Edward OR Mama Kitsune though that Tedd not seeing Nanase would make it better, it would make sense they kept them apart for a while.

6 minutes ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

We know that Nanase's mother knows far more about magic, Tedd, Adrian Raven, and what Edward Vere's department at the FBI actually does than she has ever admitted to Nanase.

She could have minimized contact between Edward and Nanase, instead she let Nanase become Tedd's tutor.  She could have kept Nanase out of contact with Adrian just by sending her to the school on the other side of town, instead she let Nanase into his class where Adrian would take an interest in  Nanase, just like he did with her and Noriko.

She could also leave the town, actually. But yes, even staying in same town, why she put Nanase in the school Adrian is teaching? I was speculating that despite not liking Adrian she considers him good teacher and didn't wanted anything less for Nanase. Note that Adrian DIDN'T take an interest in Nanase - he reacted stronger to Grace and Ellen than to her. IMHO he was specifically warned by Mrs. Kitsune to not try anything with her.

However ... it's possible another reason was to have Adrian close "just in case". In case Nanase would need to be taught magic, I mean ... although it worked quite well when Nanase's school was attacked, too. Mrs. Kitsune might've feared Nanase would be attacked ... (and she was. By NotTengu.)

11 minutes ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

We don't know why Nanase's mother does not appear to be an active practitioner of magic.

"Appear". Yeah.

12 minutes ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

But for what ever reason, she is encouraging (or at least allowing) Nanase to pursue those fields without actually acknowledging the effort.

My guess for a long time has been that Mrs Kitsune is attempting to leave her daughter a way out of magic into a "normal" life.  And her understanding of "Normal" does not include lesbian relationships.

She certainly know Nanase awakened. Maybe she noticed because she tested her with some spell, actually. And yes, while she didn't acknowledged it, she didn't do anything against that except making sure Nanase is not slacking in other areas ...

Nanase's live passed the point where she might be "normal" long ago ... BEFORE she started dating Ellen. No, I think the reason is really the family tradition and continuation of family line.

... actually, in past I've also speculated that some of contradicting behaviour of Mrs. Kitsune might be because she don't want her daughter becoming magic user, BUT she also don't want to break family tradition ...

... speaking about which ... may not be just tradition. Their family might be FATED to be monster hunters. Sure, doesn't seem that way considering even the seers are "chosen" genetically instead of by fate ... but not entirely impossible. Also, just Mrs. Kitsune believing it could be enough.

 

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27 minutes ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Having said all that, it seems that Nanase has long passed the point where exaggerated morality plays would be the most effective teaching tool.

Nanase hit the point where her mother needn't continue playing unaware on New Years, but she chose to not engage her mother in that conversation, probably because she doesn't feel 100% certain of how her mother would react. Maybe Mama Kitsune feels the same way, unsure of how Nanase would react, maybe afraid of saying something that would undo everything that she's done to keep history from repeating.

9 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Note that Adrian DIDN'T take an interest in Nanase - he reacted stronger to Grace and Ellen than to her. IMHO he was specifically warned by Mrs. Kitsune to not try anything with her.

Adrian had taken interest in Nanase, as well as believing that Justin had potential, he was quite pleased that Ellen and Nanase were friends as well.

9 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

"Appear". Yeah.

Pandora implied that Mama Kitsune could have been as powerful as Noriko if she tried, which suggest that Mama Kistune didn't take it seriously, if she does know magic, it's quite limited, or she didn't even train long enough to awaken.

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