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hkmaly

NP Monday, Apr 15, 2019

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http://egscomics.com/egsnp/fantasywasteland-04

In some games, at least the enemies you manipulate are animal and/or monsters like undead, not anything capable of true thinking or possibly person.

... actually, in most games even people are not capable of true thinking :)

But yes, manipulating someone's mind doesn't sound nice ... until you start thinking about how that compares to killing them. I mean, you are not abusing your mind control powers to make them do something they might possibly consider worse than dead ... ehmmm ... not counting the "attacking each other" option I guess ...

Also, Jedi obviously don't see any problem with what they do with weak minds. And they are supposed to be good.

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It's a matter of perspective really, also extremely situational whether using mind manipulation can be considered good or bad, Magus in the main story for instance, manipulated emotions to make people do things, that can be considered bad since it put those people in dangerous situations, those people are willing to forgive him after considering his situation. He also used a calm spell on Ashley, it prevented her from acting in any way that could have made things dangerous for herself, Elliot and Ellen. On the flip side, a calm spell could be used to make someone unable to call for help or try to defend themselves if they were being robbed, or worse. So one should consider the how and why mind manipulation spells are used.

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The "chill" spell also reminds me of Jerry's forced serenity spell seen in http://egscomics.com/comic/2010-07-07

While the morality of mind-control for de-escalating a confrontation may be a bit dubious, it is still the lesser evil compared to forcing them unconscious (or worse, incapacitating them through physical violence). Also note that Grace (and Jeremy) did not use the mind control as a means of compelling their targets to act, but rather as a means of stopping aggression before anybody got hurt even worse.

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19 minutes ago, Scotty said:

It's a matter of perspective really, also extremely situational whether using mind manipulation can be considered good or bad, Magus in the main story for instance, manipulated emotions to make people do things, that can be considered bad since it put those people in dangerous situations, those people are willing to forgive him after considering his situation.

I think most of those manipulations were evaluated (by Elliot/Ellen) not as "good" but as "acceptable evil". But yes, matter of perspective etc.

17 minutes ago, Scotty said:

He also used a calm spell on Ashley, it prevented her from acting in any way that could have made things dangerous for herself, Elliot and Ellen. On the flip side, a calm spell could be used to make someone unable to call for help or try to defend themselves if they were being robbed, or worse.

Actually, specifically the kind of calm spell used on Ashley would probably make her kick the attacker to crotch. It prevented her from panic and made her evaluate the situation logically, and logically, she was not in urgent danger and there was no way for her to escape from moving car. When being robbed, she WOULD be in urgent danger and could actually escape.

24 minutes ago, ijuin said:

The "chill" spell also reminds me of Jerry's forced serenity spell seen in http://egscomics.com/comic/2010-07-07

While the morality of mind-control for de-escalating a confrontation may be a bit dubious, it is still the lesser evil compared to forcing them unconscious (or worse, incapacitating them through physical violence). Also note that Grace (and Jeremy) did not use the mind control as a means of compelling their targets to act, but rather as a means of stopping aggression before anybody got hurt even worse.

Even compelling to NOT act might be very evil in some situations. But yes, I would consider hard to argue how that could be more evil than ensuring the same result by physical violence.

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Mind control?

If the person who was controlled does not realize they have been controlled, then they may disregard the whole incident.  There are plenty of times when a person might do something they normally wouldn't do.

But if the person who was controlled eventually does realize how they were enchanted, coerced, swindled, or tricked, then the previously controlled person can become extremely resentful.

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Just now, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Mind control?

If the person who was controlled does not realize they have been controlled, then they may disregard the whole incident.  There are plenty of times when a person might do something they normally wouldn't do.

But if the person who was controlled eventually does realize how they were enchanted, coerced, swindled, or tricked, then the previously controlled person can become extremely resentful.

Pretty sure that was Edward's reasoning for not telling Rhea and the other partygoers they had drank enchanted punch and stuff.

There is a problem though if a person under a mind control spell is made to do something like murder another person, if there were witnesses, it's highly likely the person who was controlled is going to find out what happened even if they don't remember. And if say, the person being mind controlled rapes someone, especially someone who knew the person like a friend or coworker, it's going to ruin any kind of relationship between them despite the fact that the person had no memory of doing such a thing and I don't see it realistically being easy for the friend or coworker to just be all "ah well since they were under a magic spell that made them do that to me, I guess I can forgive them".

It probably doesn't matter as much now in terms of secrecy, but prior to the magic "change" I gotta wonder how DGB would have handled a case where someone was mindcontrolled into raping a bunch of people, all evidence would point at that person but DGB wouldn't be able to tell everyone that the person was under the influence of a wizard and therefore couldn't be held responsible for their actions. DGB would probably have to do some sort of witness relocation deal.

 

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9 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Even compelling to NOT act might be very evil in some situations. But yes, I would consider hard to argue how that could be more evil than ensuring the same result by physical violence.

The mind is a very personal place, one that in real life no one else is ever truly let into. As such, messing with it in any way is a disturbing violation of that person.

The specific scenario you mention of someone temporarily preventing a person from acting (specifically through the use of a spell designed for that purpose, without ever "entering" or "reading" the mind) might not count as "mind rape", but depending on the exact details of the spell it could still count as "mental assault". And , while it might be better than preventing those actions through physical violence, even if the specific spell isn't bad enough to count as assault I'd say it's still worse than preventing those actions through physical restraint (assuming those restraints are unlikely to cause physical harm - which admittedly does depend on the restraints and situation in question).

If nothing else, even if in the end it was the most humane option out of those available, it still feels pretty creepy.

 

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6 hours ago, Scotty said:

Pretty sure that was Edward's reasoning for not telling Rhea and the other partygoers they had drank enchanted punch and stuff.

There was also high likehood they wouldn't BELIEVE it.

6 hours ago, Scotty said:

And if say, the person being mind controlled rapes someone, especially someone who knew the person like a friend or coworker, it's going to ruin any kind of relationship between them despite the fact that the person had no memory of doing such a thing and I don't see it realistically being easy for the friend or coworker to just be all "ah well since they were under a magic spell that made them do that to me, I guess I can forgive them".

That's assuming that the friend/coworker will only find out about the mind control later. In classical RPG scenarios, the mind control spell is short term, so they may SEE the person doing the mind control or have other reasons to suspect from start that the person being mind controlled is mind controlled.

Then there is the option of BOTH people being mind controlled to have sex. In which case it would really be much better if they never found out about it.

6 hours ago, Scotty said:

It probably doesn't matter as much now in terms of secrecy, but prior to the magic "change" I gotta wonder how DGB would have handled a case where someone was mindcontrolled into raping a bunch of people, all evidence would point at that person but DGB wouldn't be able to tell everyone that the person was under the influence of a wizard and therefore couldn't be held responsible for their actions. DGB would probably have to do some sort of witness relocation deal.

They probably had some program for relocating people specifically for cases where someone was targeted in way which basically made impossible for him to continue his previous life.

However, it's possible it never happened. I mean, seriously, WHY would someone mind control someone else to rape third person? Sure, people are weird so there probably was someone thinking about it but he might not have the magic. If someone has mind control magic and want to use it for sex, it would be either THEM raping someone and using mind control to hide it or forcing someone to "rape" them.

(Mindcontrolling someone to kill someone else makes more sense, but also it's easier to deal with.)

5 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

The mind is a very personal place, one that in real life no one else is ever truly let into. As such, messing with it in any way is a disturbing violation of that person.

The specific scenario you mention of someone temporarily preventing a person from acting (specifically through the use of a spell designed for that purpose, without ever "entering" or "reading" the mind) might not count as "mind rape", but depending on the exact details of the spell it could still count as "mental assault". And , while it might be better than preventing those actions through physical violence, even if the specific spell isn't bad enough to count as assault I'd say it's still worse than preventing those actions through physical restraint (assuming those restraints are unlikely to cause physical harm - which admittedly does depend on the restraints and situation in question).

Even restrains specifically made for not causing physical harm are rarely possible to use without causing physical harm first. Then it's question of how much harm versus how harming does the spell feels, and that would likely be EXTREMELY individual.

5 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

If nothing else, even if in the end it was the most humane option out of those available, it still feels pretty creepy.

Oh, definitely. That's why I was starting with "if you start thinking ...". Because, for some reason, killing DOESN'T feel creepy. And while some kind of injures do, there is big difference in how creepy something is compared to how serious harm it is. Extreme case of this is when people actually think that something which happened to them is worse than if they died. I find it very illogical, on the other hand, feelings not being logical isn't new or surprising.

Note that "personal stuff" is important even without mind reading or mind control being involved. Lot of people feel seriously hurt if someone they don't know reads their personal diary, see their naked photos or something like that, without any assault happening ...

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4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Oh, definitely. That's why I was starting with "if you start thinking ...". Because, for some reason, killing DOESN'T feel creepy. And while some kind of injures do, there is big difference in how creepy something is compared to how serious harm it is. Extreme case of this is when people actually think that something which happened to them is worse than if they died. I find it very illogical, on the other hand, feelings not being logical isn't new or surprising.

I think when it comes to killing, how it happens affects whether or not it's creepy. I don't find the idea of being killed in a war or a mugging creepy, but I do find the idea of poison or a murderous stalker creepy. Part of it might just be that if we hear about death in certain ways often enough it comes to feel normal; just an unpleasant fact of life that we have to put up with.

[CN: depression, suicidal thoughts]

 

As for some people considering some things worse than death, I don't know if you have specific examples in mind, but as someone who spent most of my life doubting that the good in my life was worth dealing with the bad, it makes perfect sense to me. If one considers one's situation unbearable, and can see no hope for it to improve, it seems only natural to me one might consider death preferable to life. Frankly, it's the point of view that death is always bad and should be avoided/prevented at all costs that has always puzzled me.

(This isn't directed at hkmaly, but after what I just said I feel the need to add: While wishing for death may be natural, under most circumstances seeking it out is unwise at best. So long as one is alive there's always a chance for things to improve, but death is permanent. There's also the fact that death always hurts the people who knew and cared for the deceased. Besides, unless you're immortal you just need to be patient and death will find you eventually.)

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55 minutes ago, ChronosCat said:

I think when it comes to killing, how it happens affects whether or not it's creepy. I don't find the idea of being killed in a war or a mugging creepy, but I do find the idea of poison or a murderous stalker creepy.

Hmmm, yeah, there are kinds of dead which are creepy and just didn't occurred to me in context of RPG ...

55 minutes ago, ChronosCat said:

Part of it might just be that if we hear about death in certain ways often enough it comes to feel normal; just an unpleasant fact of life that we have to put up with.

That might be part of it, definitely.

55 minutes ago, ChronosCat said:

[CN: depression, suicidal thoughts]

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As for some people considering some things worse than death, I don't know if you have specific examples in mind, but as someone who spent most of my life doubting that the good in my life was worth dealing with the bad, it makes perfect sense to me. If one considers one's situation unbearable, and can see no hope for it to improve, it seems only natural to me one might consider death preferable to life. Frankly, it's the point of view that death is always bad and should be avoided/prevented at all costs that has always puzzled me.

(This isn't directed at hkmaly, but after what I just said I feel the need to add: While wishing for death may be natural, under most circumstances seeking it out is unwise at best. So long as one is alive there's always a chance for things to improve, but death is permanent. There's also the fact that death always hurts the people who knew and cared for the deceased. Besides, unless you're immortal you just need to be patient and death will find you eventually.)

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I would say that the bit about "always chance for things to improve" is the most important one.
Only situation where it makes sense to wish for death is when you lose hope that things may improve.
Which is entirely logical if the reason is medical - like, illness which is painful and will only be worse.
The illogical part is if something happened, it's over and it didn't left you with any permanent disability, and you still think it would be better to die. Why? Sure, it might've been bad, but it's already much better.

Damn this spoiler thing is hard to write.

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13 hours ago, hkmaly said:

However, it's possible it never happened. I mean, seriously, WHY would someone mind control someone else to rape third person? Sure, people are weird so there probably was someone thinking about it but he might not have the magic. If someone has mind control magic and want to use it for sex, it would be either THEM raping someone and using mind control to hide it or forcing someone to "rape" them.

In this case, the reason to control them isn't just for the sex, but for the control itself. Just like Not-Tengu liked to control completely his "flock", to someone like him, the idea of making someone do anything under his control, expecially something they normally would not do at all, would be a big turn on.

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11 hours ago, Entropy said:
On 4/16/2019 at 10:09 PM, hkmaly said:

However, it's possible it never happened. I mean, seriously, WHY would someone mind control someone else to rape third person? Sure, people are weird so there probably was someone thinking about it but he might not have the magic. If someone has mind control magic and want to use it for sex, it would be either THEM raping someone and using mind control to hide it or forcing someone to "rape" them.

In this case, the reason to control them isn't just for the sex, but for the control itself. Just like Not-Tengu liked to control completely his "flock", to someone like him, the idea of making someone do anything under his control, expecially something they normally would not do at all, would be a big turn on.

As I said, while there may be people turned on by it, it could be sufficiently rare for none of them getting such magic.

Note that specifically Not-Tengu would never release control of his flock unless forced to. And while I can see him making his flock have sex with each other, it would be the "BOTH people being mind controlled to have sex" option AND they may not remember it.

Hmmm ... I must admit I now see the story of "Diane wasn't warned, so Nanase came down too late and the flock attacked her and started to rape her", but, well ...

1) The people are transformed, so Nanase wouldn't blame anyone of them anyway. Not that she knew them that well in first place.

2) It would be quite obvious they are not themselves even if they wouldn't look all like Nanase.

3) Sorry, I know that it's sexism, but I still find hard to imagine that sexy girl like Nanase trying to have sex with someone could result in as bad experience as rape usually is.

Note that otherwise, while Dan wouldn't be likely to ever make story like that, I think it would match Not-Tengu's personality. He did mentioned that Tedd wouldn't appeal to him. Although I think he would regret that if he would saw her like this or even this.

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4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Note that specifically Not-Tengu would never release control of his flock unless forced to. And while I can see him making his flock have sex with each other, it would be the "BOTH people being mind controlled to have sex" option AND they may not remember it.

There would be an issue if one or more of the women got pregnant from that and people start thinking that there was date rape. Both sides would probably claim the other drugged and raped them because neither would remember it but can't explain how it happened.

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For Not-Tengu's flock's case, pregnancy would likely not be an issue between two flock members, given that Not-Tengu wants them all to be female.

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Just now, ijuin said:

For Not-Tengu's flock's case, pregnancy would likely not be an issue between two flock members, given that Not-Tengu wants them all to be female.

True.

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20 hours ago, Scotty said:
On 4/18/2019 at 0:56 AM, hkmaly said:

Note that specifically Not-Tengu would never release control of his flock unless forced to. And while I can see him making his flock have sex with each other, it would be the "BOTH people being mind controlled to have sex" option AND they may not remember it.

There would be an issue if one or more of the women got pregnant from that and people start thinking that there was date rape. Both sides would probably claim the other drugged and raped them because neither would remember it but can't explain how it happened.

... seriously? You mean in US it counts as date rape if two teenagers get so drunk neither remembers having sex?

18 hours ago, ijuin said:

For Not-Tengu's flock's case, pregnancy would likely not be an issue between two flock members, given that Not-Tengu wants them all to be female.

... but yes, the main issue with that would be this.

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3 hours ago, hkmaly said:

... seriously? You mean in US it counts as date rape if two teenagers get so drunk neither remembers having sex?

Even in Canada there's the question of consent and a lot of cases being drunk is not valid consent, if one side was drunk and the other wasn't, there'd be no question the the person drunk was taken advantage of, but if both sides were drunk, who's at fault, who's the victim, if one side were to claim rape, the other side is now on the defensive and it's be difficult to prove otherwise because the act occurring is certain, but they'd have to prove they didn't go start drinking with the hopes of scoring with someone.

It's not like both side could get charged with raping each other, but examples like this one suggests that if two people are too drunk to keep their hands off each other, all it would take is for one of them to later, when they're sober, to be disturbed enough by what happened to claim rape and the other person would be up the creek without a paddle.

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