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Tom Sewell

Story Monday, May 27, 2019

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... ok, so Diane is relevant without Susan. So far.

Makes sense that Diane KNOWS how to date. It's her first official date with Lucy but nowhere near first date with bowling they were at. Together.

... why don't we see NANASEs face?

Will someone make the joke about Diane running out of boys in school to date?

... I heard that long walk on beach is also nice date idea. Not really useful in middle of continent, but still.

EDIT: Note that Diane seem to be looking for compromise between her usual clothing and clothing from The Legend of Diane. The top seems logical, but I wonder if the bottom doesn't go against the stated reason of not being cold.

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It's nice to see that Diane is now comfortable enough around Nanase and Justin that she feels able to jump into their conversation like this. She, like Ashley, is quickly getting close to fully joining the main group.

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Diane's putting her experiences to use here, I'm guessing one of her past guy dates actually brought his own ball with him, and acted like he was a pro the entire time they waited for an open lane, and refused to go to the arcade to pass the time cus he didn't want to leave his ball unattended. Then, when finally got a lane, Diane got a better score without trying and the guy broke.

2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Will someone make the joke about Diane running out of boys in school to date?

That depends, has she dated Gerald as well?

2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

EDIT: Note that Diane seem to be looking for compromise between her usual clothing and clothing from The Legend of Diane. The top seems logical, but I wonder if the bottom doesn't go against the stated reason of not being cold.

I like it, it's a compromise between "I want to look nice" and "I don't want to reveal too much". It really depends on if that's just a plain shirt or something else, but I think it does the job. Nanase however, still seems to be experimenting with retro fashion.

 

Also, we now have 3 dates (well 1 may not be a date depending on how that goes) happening on Friday, Sarah's and Sam's, Justin's and Luke's, and  Diane's and Lucy's. we already got 2 happening at the bowling alley, what are the chances that Sarah and Sam end up there as well.

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5 minutes ago, Scotty said:

It really depends on if that's just a plain shirt or something else, but I think it does the job. Nanase however, still seems to be experimenting with retro fashion.

My guess on what Dan intends is that Diane is wearing a shirt and either pants or tights under a short off-the-shoulders dress like the one Ellen wore in MV5. Also note that Nanase is wearing something new.

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I'm glad Diane has moved away from being "Diane the pest", but I'm on the fence about her becoming part of the main cast.

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2 hours ago, mlooney said:

I'm on the fence about her becoming part of the main cast.

Hmm. Maybe Diane isn't quite there yet. You might take comfort that unlike every member of the Main Eight:

  • Diane doesn't have a last name yet.
  • Diane has had no scenes with Tedd or Sarah yet.
  • Diane hasn't had any scene with the Demonic Duck yet.

On the other hand, Diane has her name in the title of an archive chapter now. Nanase's only made it into one non-canon NP title, and Justin's name hasn't been in any archive title. 

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Nanase's outfit looks like an 80's reinterpretation of a cave-woman outfit. I kind of like it, but I don't think it suits Nanase.

Diane's outfit is great, but seems a little fancy for everyday wear.

Also, I still haven't gotten used to the fact that fashions in EGS no longer fit what one would expect to see in the present-day (or '00s) real world.

8 hours ago, hkmaly said:

... I heard that long walk on beach is also nice date idea. Not really useful in middle of continent, but still.

Well, may places have lakes, but I think the sandy beaches in such places are usually man-made (they certainly are in my area) so the sandy area will be only as large as required for the swimming area. (In my area none of the sandy beaches are large enough for a long walk.)

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45 minutes ago, ChronosCat said:

Nanase's outfit looks like an 80's reinterpretation of a cave-woman outfit.

I assume you mean a re-interpretation of a Flintstones or BC outfit, which in turn are probably re-interpretations of Oona's outfit in Alley-Oop. The last mentioned comic strip was still around when I was a kid and even had a rock'n'roll song.

 

54 minutes ago, ChronosCat said:

Also, I still haven't gotten used to the fact that fashions in EGS no longer fit what one would expect to see in the present-day (or '00s) real world.

Neither do video stores or newspapers, much. 

 

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2 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

Also, I still haven't gotten used to the fact that fashions in EGS no longer fit what one would expect to see in the present-day (or '00s) real world.

In universe, I think the timeline hard diverged because of magic, but out of universe, I think Dan doesn't know that much about what clothes are "in" and that's okay because who even needs that.

In any case, it's not a cavewoman outfit, it's just a swooshy pattern on a shirt. It would make more sense with color.

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Just now, mlooney said:

I'm glad Diane has moved away from being "Diane the pest", but I'm on the fence about her becoming part of the main cast.

I want to think that, when referring to "The Main Eight" we're just referring to those that have been around since the first Sister Arc or earlier. And characters like Diane, Rhoda, Catalina, Ashley, Charlotte, etc would remain secondary cast members even if they end up getting more panel time because they were introduce later. Diane was initially introduced as an antagonist for Nanase and Justin, so it was unlikely for her to be integrated as a main character and she wasn't given much panel time until fairly recently.

50 minutes ago, Tom Sewell said:

My guess on what Dan intends is that Diane is wearing a shirt and either pants or tights under a short off-the-shoulders dress like the one Ellen wore in MV5. Also note that Nanase is wearing something new.

From what I can see of Diane's legs, it's hard to say whether she's just wearing really light coloured leggings, or shear light pantyhose, or nothing. As for Nanase, that's why I said she's still experimenting, it's new compared to what she wore the last time we saw her, but still has a retro feel to it, though while I'd place the previous outfit in a mid-last 80's kind of feel, her current outfit is definitely something I've seen during my high school years in the mid 90's.

Just now, Tom Sewell said:

Diane doesn't have a last name yet.

Well....we know who her biological father is and his last name is Raven, granted it remains to be seen if she takes that as hers, she does have that choice, but yeah we don't know her adopted last name.

 

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17 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Well....we know who her biological father is and his last name is Raven, granted it remains to be seen if she takes that as hers, she does have that choice, but yeah we don't know her adopted last name.

I see Diane eventually calling Adrian "Father" but only Noah is going to call him "Dad". As for Diane's adopted name, I root for "Holmes".

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11 hours ago, Scotty said:

Diane's putting her experiences to use here, I'm guessing one of her past guy dates actually brought his own ball with him, and acted like he was a pro the entire time they waited for an open lane, and refused to go to the arcade to pass the time cus he didn't want to leave his ball unattended. Then, when finally got a lane, Diane got a better score without trying and the guy broke.

Sure she did better score, she had, at that point, more experience :)

11 hours ago, Scotty said:

That depends, has she dated Gerald as well?

Why wouldn't she? ... ok, she wouldn't if Gerald wouldn't be willing to pay, presumably.

5 hours ago, ChronosCat said:
14 hours ago, hkmaly said:

... I heard that long walk on beach is also nice date idea. Not really useful in middle of continent, but still.

Well, may places have lakes, but I think the sandy beaches in such places are usually man-made (they certainly are in my area) so the sandy area will be only as large as required for the swimming area. (In my area none of the sandy beaches are large enough for a long walk.)

Yes. Man-made and not deep enough, which makes them STOP being beaches if not cared for (because grass will start growing there). Also, often full of people. Not really the same romanticism.

3 hours ago, weirdee said:
5 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

Also, I still haven't gotten used to the fact that fashions in EGS no longer fit what one would expect to see in the present-day (or '00s) real world.

In universe, I think the timeline hard diverged because of magic

And, possibly, someone stealing ideas from Uryuom technology. I mean they got to smartphones really fast.

2 hours ago, Scotty said:
9 hours ago, mlooney said:

I'm glad Diane has moved away from being "Diane the pest", but I'm on the fence about her becoming part of the main cast.

I want to think that, when referring to "The Main Eight"

The Main Eight is actually group of people Edward Verres is sharing information on need-to-know basis.

 

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5 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

I assume you mean a re-interpretation of a Flintstones or BC outfit, which in turn are probably re-interpretations of Oona's outfit in Alley-Oop. The last mentioned comic strip was still around when I was a kid and even had a rock'n'roll song.

Flinstones, BC, Chrono Trigger's stone age, the first story arc of classic Doctor Who. Frankly the cave-person trope (crude fur outfits with little or no basis in science included) is so prevalent I never really thought about where it originally came from.

5 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

Neither do video stores or newspapers, much.

Newspapers may be dropping in circulation (with many papers going out of business), but they are still very much a thing. As has been mentioned before, there are still video stores around too, but admittedly they're getting rare (there aren't any in my town, just a few redbox machines).

At any rate, I prefer to think of the comic as being set in the late 00 to early 10s, which makes those things (and many others) not feel so anachronistic. The clothes seen recently at MSHS still don't fit that setting though. (At least I don't think so...)

Actually though... 

3 hours ago, weirdee said:

In universe, I think the timeline hard diverged because of magic, but out of universe, I think Dan doesn't know that much about what clothes are "in" and that's okay because who even needs that.

Honestly I don't really know what clothes are "in" either. I mainly just have a vague notion of what clothing is common among people who aren't trying to be super fashionable, and that idea hasn't changed all that much in the past twenty years (in my defense, we never seem to get the most distinctive and outlandish fashions in this area, so what most people wear from year to year varies a lot less than in more fashion-conscious areas). For most of the run of the comic, most of what the characters have been wearing have been within the range I've come to think of as "normal", but these days not so much.

The idea of a timeline divergence resulting in different fashions does appeal to me, though I think the explanation has to be a little more complicated than just "Magic"; after all magic has existed in the EGS world from time immemorial, but thanks to the Masquerade the world still looked pretty similar to ours. And the collapse of the Masquerade didn't really start until less than a year ago in-universe and hasn't completed yet; I know fashion trends can move quickly, but unless a fashion designer was inspired by Pandora's TV appearance and the rumors coming out of Moperville (or perhaps the designer lives in Moperville themselves) it seems a little soon for fashion trends to have changed drastically.

21 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Also, often full of people. Not really the same romanticism.

I was going to raise that point too, but then I remembered the current story is set in winter, so the beaches should be pretty deserted. (Does it loose much romanticism if both people are bundled up in bulky coats, boots, and other winter gear?)

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22 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Yes. Man-made and not deep enough, which makes them STOP being beaches if not cared for (because grass will start growing there). Also, often full of people. Not really the same romanticism.

There is a rather large lake not too far from Moperville which likely has natural beaches.

27 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Sure, in Edward's mind the circle is technically now at 11 (Ashley, Diane and Charlotte). but as far as the overall focus of the main story, it's been generally Elliot, Ellen, Tedd, Sarah, Grace, Nanase, Susan and Justin. The others are getting more attention, and being included in things involving said eight, but that doesn't necessarily make them main characters.

 

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50 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

It's canon that Edward shares information with Greg, who isn't part of DGJ, including the secret that aliens are living among us. Maybe the best criterion that differentiates the Main Eight and only the Main Eight in canon is that only they appear in the all-female photo taken at Grace's birthday party.

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5 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

Frankly the cave-person trope (crude fur outfits with little or no basis in science included)

IF only would those be crude ...

... it's hard: real cave-person outfits didn't survived. On one hand, we know that they didn't really had tools for anything sophisticated. On the other, they had thousands of years to use the tools they have to develop something they would like. And, what they like could change - probably not as fast as fashion changes now, but I would be careful claiming that natives were always wearing what the explorers found them in.

5 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

Honestly I don't really know what clothes are "in" either. I mainly just have a vague notion of what clothing is common among people who aren't trying to be super fashionable, and that idea hasn't changed all that much in the past twenty years (in my defense, we never seem to get the most distinctive and outlandish fashions in this area, so what most people wear from year to year varies a lot less than in more fashion-conscious areas). For most of the run of the comic, most of what the characters have been wearing have been within the range I've come to think of as "normal", but these days not so much.

I think that for most of the comics, characters were mostly wearing the kind of clothes which are "timeless", meaning not changing much with time. Recently however, Dan started to experiment (I think he even commented about it somewhere) and deliberately used clothes which are more specific.

5 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

And the collapse of the Masquerade didn't really start until less than a year ago in-universe and hasn't completed yet; I know fashion trends can move quickly, but unless a fashion designer was inspired by Pandora's TV appearance and the rumors coming out of Moperville (or perhaps the designer lives in Moperville themselves) it seems a little soon for fashion trends to have changed drastically.

The collapse of Masquerade barely started, if you judge it by number of people affected. While it's totally possible Pandora's clothes would became latest fashion, consider what she actually show herself in: not really what is shown as the new fashion, is it?

5 hours ago, ChronosCat said:
5 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Also, often full of people. Not really the same romanticism.

I was going to raise that point too, but then I remembered the current story is set in winter, so the beaches should be pretty deserted. (Does it loose much romanticism if both people are bundled up in bulky coats, boots, and other winter gear?)

There is no point in walking specifically on beaches when those are under snow ... hmmm ... it was snowing on new year's eve, however it seems that snow melted later and generally didn't snowed since ... grass everywhere. Ok, not the concern, probably.

5 hours ago, Scotty said:
5 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Yes. Man-made and not deep enough, which makes them STOP being beaches if not cared for (because grass will start growing there). Also, often full of people. Not really the same romanticism.

There is a rather large lake not too far from Moperville which likely has natural beaches.

Natural beaches IN CITY? I don't think those would be good examples. However, it's true that EGS characters are more likely to have reachable beach than I have.

5 hours ago, Scotty said:
5 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Sure, in Edward's mind the circle is technically now at 11 (Ashley, Diane and Charlotte). but as far as the overall focus of the main story, it's been generally Elliot, Ellen, Tedd, Sarah, Grace, Nanase, Susan and Justin. The others are getting more attention, and being included in things involving said eight, but that doesn't necessarily make them main characters.

We have no confirmation about that and I would actually assume he is NOT willing to share information on need-to-know basis with Charlotte - or that he has very low opinion about what her need-to-know is. Ashley would likely need to be included because wizard (and dating Elliot the bad liar) and Diane might be allowed if someone mentions she's Raven's daughter to Edward, but Charlotte? She's lucky she wasn't lied to on New Year's Eve, and why do you think he took Nanase away from Charlotte and Diane before whispering to her how easy it's to get magic?

4 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:
6 hours ago, hkmaly said:

It's canon that Edward shares information with Greg, who isn't part of DGJ, including the secret that aliens are living among us.

It's also canon that Edward was intimated by him. BTW it's DGB. And I'm not sure he wanted to share the alien stuff with him, in fact what makes you think he knows?

Edward also shares information with Raven. I would still conclude he doesn't count into the group.

 

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8 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

Flinstones, BC, Chrono Trigger's stone age, the first story arc of classic Doctor Who. Frankly the cave-person trope (crude fur outfits with little or no basis in science included) is so prevalent I never really thought about where it originally came from.

Newspapers may be dropping in circulation (with many papers going out of business), but they are still very much a thing. As has been mentioned before, there are still video stores around too, but admittedly they're getting rare (there aren't any in my town, just a few redbox machines).

At any rate, I prefer to think of the comic as being set in the late 00 to early 10s, which makes those things (and many others) not feel so anachronistic. The clothes seen recently at MSHS still don't fit that setting though. (At least I don't think so...)

 

On "caveman" clothes, I would think that what prehistoric people wore would be similar to what stone-age level "primitive" tribes in modern times wore until they first started interacting with higher-tech people, e.g. the native American tribes before they started trading with Europeans. Rather than crude fur wraps, they had sewn clothes made with fur or leather even before they invented thread-spinning and weaving or knitting.

On newspapers, how many people here still get a paper delivered to their home every day? I would bet a fair number do. People are not getting their news ONLY from papers, but papers are still circulating.

On fashions, it is common for a person's (including Dan's) fashion sense to become "frozen" when they are in their twenties, unless they are the type of person who puts effort into staying on top of trends. Most of the rest of us simply figure out what we like to wear and stick with it forever. Definitely, people who do not have children tend not to keep up to date with "what the kids wear these days", so Dan basing his characters' fashions on what was fashionable when he was their age is pretty standard for artists.

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1 hour ago, ijuin said:

On newspapers, how many people here still get a paper delivered to their home every day? I would bet a fair number do. People are not getting their news ONLY from papers, but papers are still circulating.

I'm buying paper newspaper every Thursday. I'm not looking into online news so regularly, I'm more likely to look at specific article when I already know something is happening ...

1 hour ago, ijuin said:

On fashions, it is common for a person's (including Dan's) fashion sense to become "frozen" when they are in their twenties, unless they are the type of person who puts effort into staying on top of trends. Most of the rest of us simply figure out what we like to wear and stick with it forever. Definitely, people who do not have children tend not to keep up to date with "what the kids wear these days", so Dan basing his characters' fashions on what was fashionable when he was their age is pretty standard for artists.

I don't think Dan is so old.

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5 hours ago, hkmaly said:

We have no confirmation about that and I would actually assume he is NOT willing to share information on need-to-know basis with Charlotte - or that he has very low opinion about what her need-to-know is.

Charlotte runs a forum where people talk about "spooky things" Edward could consider that a tool in both reporting strange things happening, and guaging how well cover ups are working. While Charlotte doesn't appear to have any magic, she's still got potential as a paranormal investigator that Edward may be interested in recruiting and befriending her and making her a sort of scout for paranormal activity would be a good way of seeing if she'd make a good fit in the FBI.

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

I don't think Dan is so old.

I believe he's 36 now which would mean he'd have been 18 in 2001, he still would remember what was in fashion during much of the 90's, 80's would be fuzzy but there's TV syndication and movies for that.

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10 hours ago, Scotty said:
16 hours ago, hkmaly said:

We have no confirmation about that and I would actually assume he is NOT willing to share information on need-to-know basis with Charlotte - or that he has very low opinion about what her need-to-know is.

Charlotte runs a forum where people talk about "spooky things" Edward could consider that a tool in both reporting strange things happening, and guaging how well cover ups are working. While Charlotte doesn't appear to have any magic, she's still got potential as a paranormal investigator that Edward may be interested in recruiting and befriending her and making her a sort of scout for paranormal activity would be a good way of seeing if she'd make a good fit in the FBI.

Putting aside the possibility her forum is already monitored, I think that EXACTLY because she's running such forum he will NOT be telling her back which of those paranormal reports turned out to be genuine. And I suspect Edward is not in charge of recruiting.

11 hours ago, Scotty said:
12 hours ago, hkmaly said:

I don't think Dan is so old.

I believe he's 36 now which would mean he'd have been 18 in 2001, he still would remember what was in fashion during much of the 90's, 80's would be fuzzy but there's TV syndication and movies for that.

Exactly. I think this 80's fashion (or fashion DAN described as 80's) must be based on some TV he's watching.

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4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Putting aside the possibility her forum is already monitored, I think that EXACTLY because she's running such forum he will NOT be telling her back which of those paranormal reports turned out to be genuine. And I suspect Edward is not in charge of recruiting.

If it was monitored, why wasn't anyone there at the party to ambush Not_Tengu when he revealed himself to Nanase and Ellen? You'd think all the speculation about what happened when Abraham attacked, Not_Tengu's info on guardian forms as well as his reaction to learning that Nanase and Ellen were attending the party, would have caught the attention of DGB. Seeing Arthur's reaction to Nanase's name, there's no doubt he would not have ignored any possibility that she could be in danger, Edward's anger in Sister 2 would likely be mirrored by Mama Kitsune if they knew Arthur dropped the ball here and who knows what would happen if Noriko got wind that a foe of hers managed to kill a family member and her ex husband's department (or former department) let it happen.

While Edward may not be in charge of recruiting, he can certainly pass along a recommendation to who ever is in charge and it's likely his recommendations carry weight, also, remember Pandora warned Sarah that the last person Edward found with her spell was strong-armed into working with them, unless being the head of the division just gives him the power to recruit anyone, he'd still have to run it through the proper channels.

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1 hour ago, Scotty said:

If it was monitored, why wasn't anyone there at the party to ambush Not_Tengu when he revealed himself to Nanase and Ellen? You'd think all the speculation about what happened when Abraham attacked, Not_Tengu's info on guardian forms as well as his reaction to learning that Nanase and Ellen were attending the party, would have caught the attention of DGB.

Obviously it's not monitored by Edward or Arthur themselves. It may still be monitored by someone who is not in need to know about Nanase and Ellen.

More obvious things were missed in monitoring or reported then the report lost in bureaucracy. And even if Not-Tengu's info was surprisingly correct, it didn't necessarily meant he's magic user ... and that Mwuh-hahaha wasn't exactly death threat.

It may also be "monitored" in automatic way, meaning someone will check it manually from time to time and otherwise just certain keywords raise alarm.

... it's also possible the person monitoring it took vacation over holidays or something ...

However, it IS possible that Edward recommended the person monitoring it would be fired and replaced with Charlotte.

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

Seeing Arthur's reaction to Nanase's name, there's no doubt he would not have ignored any possibility that she could be in danger, Edward's anger in Sister 2 would likely be mirrored by Mama Kitsune if they knew Arthur dropped the ball here and who knows what would happen if Noriko got wind that a foe of hers managed to kill a family member and her ex husband's department (or former department) let it happen.

Note that Arthur reacted that way AFTER he read the report about what Nanase did on New Year.

And Noriko likely IS aware how DGB works and that it's not Edward's personal responsibility if the department do some mistake. Not speaking about the fact that even if she would blame the director it would be Arthur and not Edward.

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

While Edward may not be in charge of recruiting, he can certainly pass along a recommendation to who ever is in charge and it's likely his recommendations carry weight

This passing can take time, especially if there is a policy to not hire people below certain age and/or who didn't finished college. It has been what, about month? Did they even finished the background check on her already?

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

unless being the head of the division just gives him the power to recruit anyone

It might. He certainly had bigger influence on recruiting as head of the division.

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

the last person Edward found with her spell was strong-armed into working with them

That was URGENT. Such spells are rare and anyone having that spell needs to be acquired before someone else gets to him.

Also, note that I think the strong arm doing the strong-arming belonged to agent Wolf. It might go like this:

what-men-find-sexy-bicep-kiss.jpg

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Just now, hkmaly said:

Note that Arthur reacted that way AFTER he read the report about what Nanase did on New Year.

Arthur used to be Edward's boss, we don't know if Noriko worked at DGB until the divorce, but even if she didn't he'd certainly still know her and given Wolf's description of her, her family is well known to the division, so it's likely that Arthur would know that Nanase is Noriko's niece and that she was showing potential to be as powerful especially after using a guardian form. And then there's the whole "Meddling Teenagers" bit which, despite not really dealing with actual paranormal cases until New Years, should have been under the watchful eye of DGB anyway due to magic users being involved (well Nanase was burned out, but Ellen could still zap people and someone at DGB would probably be tasked with making sure Ellen didn't cause any magic related incidents).

5 hours ago, hkmaly said:

And Noriko likely IS aware how DGB works and that it's not Edward's personal responsibility if the department do some mistake. Not speaking about the fact that even if she would blame the director it would be Arthur and not Edward.

I didn't say she'd blame Edward, she'd be furious with DGB in general and whoever is in charge, if she has been keeping up with events in Moperville she'd probably have known Edward was replaced after coming to her niece's aid.

5 hours ago, hkmaly said:

This passing can take time, especially if there is a policy to not hire people below certain age and/or who didn't finished college. It has been what, about month? Did they even finished the background check on her already?

She wouldn't be recruited immediately, no, but Edward might suggest that after college there could be a place for her as someone who monitors media and such to pick out potential problems. And he'd probably do the background check himself considering proximity to family.

5 hours ago, hkmaly said:

It might. He certainly had bigger influence on recruiting as head of the division.

He still has the loyalty of Wolf and Cranium, and can call in favours, I'd say he still has a lot of influence, that doesn't necessarily mean he can recruit someone on the spot though.

5 hours ago, hkmaly said:

That was URGENT. Such spells are rare and anyone having that spell needs to be acquired before someone else gets to him.

I was just using that as an example of someone being recruited because of Edward, Edward wouldn't have everyone he feels would be an asset to the division be strong-armed, it's unlikely that he'd strong-arm any of the Main Eight into working for the paranormal division, though he probably hopes that Tedd would follow in his footsteps, but that's just what a dad would normally expect, he'd certainly also make it known that the division would have places for them, but he probably respects their parents enough to not force them (especially in Nanase's case, he probably wouldn't want to mess with Mama Kitsune even if he hadn't been married to her sister).

 

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