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detrius

Story Wednesday, July 3rd, 2019

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Edward has shown a degree of corruption, in terms of diverting resources and engaging in coverups for the sake of his personal relationships--e.g. some of those parts he requisitioned for Tedd's research almost certainly were purchased through work channels, and he has engaged in deflecting the FBI from investigating his child's friends even though strictly by-the-book procedures would have required it. He also got away with assaulting a surrendering person (Abraham) in the defense of his niece, and instead of getting fired, he was "kicked upstairs" due to being too well-connected and otherwise competent to get rid of.

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3 hours ago, ijuin said:

Edward has shown a degree of corruption, in terms of diverting resources and engaging in coverups for the sake of his personal relationships--e.g. some of those parts he requisitioned for Tedd's research almost certainly were purchased through work channels, and he has engaged in deflecting the FBI from investigating his child's friends even though strictly by-the-book procedures would have required it. He also got away with assaulting a surrendering person (Abraham) in the defense of his niece, and instead of getting fired, he was "kicked upstairs" due to being too well-connected and otherwise competent to get rid of.

Eh, Abraham had just attempted to murder a child and wasn't detained yet. In such a situation, basically any cop could get away with shooting first and asking questions later.

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3 hours ago, ijuin said:

Edward has shown a degree of corruption, in terms of diverting resources and engaging in coverups for the sake of his personal relationships--e.g. some of those parts he requisitioned for Tedd's research almost certainly were purchased through work channels

... unless, of course, DGB at that point already approved Tedd's research officially.

3 hours ago, ijuin said:

and he has engaged in deflecting the FBI from investigating his child's friends even though strictly by-the-book procedures would have required it.

This would be harder to explain. His personal connection to them was part of reason why he was "fired".

I guess Liz will rethink her position on corruption if she learned that Edward's corruption is likely to be in Ashley's advantage.

Hmmm ... Arthur also wasn't exactly professional to Ashley ...

3 hours ago, ijuin said:

He also got away with assaulting a surrendering person (Abraham) in the defense of his niece, and instead of getting fired, he was "kicked upstairs" due to being too well-connected and otherwise competent to get rid of.

That's generally sign of corruption, yes. Although note that while kicked "upstairs", he WAS moved from position he did shown to abuse to position he will have less opportunities to abuse.

21 minutes ago, detrius said:

Eh, Abraham had just attempted to murder a child and wasn't detained yet. In such a situation, basically any cop could get away with shooting first and asking questions later.

While probably true, I'm sure it's not something police PR person would like to explain.

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1 hour ago, detrius said:

Eh, Abraham had just attempted to murder a child and wasn't detained yet. In such a situation, basically any cop could get away with shooting first and asking questions later.

"Eh, Abraham had just attempted to murder a child and wasn't detained yet. In such a situation, basically any corrupt cop could get away with shooting first and asking questions later."

He's still an alleged perpetrator until convicted by a court (aside from "It's in another universe, maybe the Constitution is different"). Edward is not even an eye witness (not that that would matter), all he has is a phone report of an incident (assuming nothing like scrying was used, but he could have some way of knowing more than is normally evident).

 

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4 hours ago, ijuin said:

Edward has shown a degree of corruption, in terms of diverting resources and engaging in coverups for the sake of his personal relationships--e.g. some of those parts he requisitioned for Tedd's research almost certainly were purchased through work channels, and he has engaged in deflecting the FBI from investigating his child's friends even though strictly by-the-book procedures would have required it. He also got away with assaulting a surrendering person (Abraham) in the defense of his niece, and instead of getting fired, he was "kicked upstairs" due to being too well-connected and otherwise competent to get rid of.

I don't think any of that is a sign of corruption, the parts he got for Tedd's TFG could have been gifts, they could have also been found in an abandoned storage unit or something, it's nor corruption if someone was like "I don't need any of this, you can have it." and Edward was like "Sure, my son could make use of it". And in terms of the incident with Abraham, can you really blame him for letting his emotions get the better of him after seeing his niece collapsed on the ground? Yeah, it wasn't his finest moment, but it showed he's human and cares for the safety of his family.

Requesting the coverup didn't cause any harm to anyone, unless there ended up being violent slapfights about whether or not Elliot is Cheerleadra but that's not really Edward's fault anyway, it'd be people getting crazy over something. And it'd been made clear that without him, Earth in general would have been in big trouble on a few occasions. Arthur didn't sound like Edward was waving that fact in his face when making the request for a Cheerleadra sighting, he simply stated that Edward earned the ability to call in favours cus if you think about it, for someone working for the government, preventing world destruction by alien forces and such would be something the government just could not afford to properly pay for, so I would expect they'd give Edward more financial freedom (no taxes, free health/life insureance for him and his family, free trade-in on new cars or something) and honour any requests for assistance and such, Edward's not shown to be abusing his power, so I don't consider him corrupt.

4 hours ago, Tom Sewell said:

Let's not forget that Moperville is a suburb of CHICAGO! It's not exactly famous for it's lack of corruption.

Let's also not forget that EGS is set in a fictional world with magic and aliens and that it may not completely mirror how things are in the real world, yes Liz does imply that corruption in law enforcement exist but we shouldn't expect it to be on the same level as what's perceived in the real world, and yes we get our views of police corruption from the media which sadly focuses their reports more of the bad stuff that happens rather than the good stuff, because the bad stuff gets more attention.

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I don't know how helpful reading fictional depictions of police corruption would be, but knowing Elliot likes superheroes, my first thought was "Someone (probably Justin) should encourage Elliot to read Batman: Year One." (That happens to have been my first major introduction to the concept of corrupt cops, though I did see a couple of other references in other Batman comics first, as well as in the 1989 Batman movie.)

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8 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Is Liz the Smokey Wizard who was spooked by Grace?

That doesn't seem to be her style; some of the pieces fit. Smokey was direct. OTOH, I don't see Liz having a driving urge to observe spells to copy them. Seems like something like that would have come up in conversations with Ashley, few though they were on screen in the comic.

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16 hours ago, Scotty said:

I don't think any of that is a sign of corruption, the parts he got for Tedd's TFG could have been gifts, they could have also been found in an abandoned storage unit or something, it's nor corruption if someone was like "I don't need any of this, you can have it." and Edward was like "Sure, my son could make use of it".

Ownership is not the issue here. Issue is that it was top secret alien technology.

16 hours ago, Scotty said:

And in terms of the incident with Abraham, can you really blame him for letting his emotions get the better of him after seeing his niece collapsed on the ground? Yeah, it wasn't his finest moment, but it showed he's human and cares for the safety of his family.

"Everyone has their price" sounds cynical but it's true: as long as you interpret it loosely and not just as about cash, every human cares about something and can be corrupted with it. So yes: it showed he's human, cares for the safety of his family and can be manipulated by threatening said family.

16 hours ago, Scotty said:

And it'd been made clear that without him, Earth in general would have been in big trouble on a few occasions. Arthur didn't sound like Edward was waving that fact in his face when making the request for a Cheerleadra sighting, he simply stated that Edward earned the ability to call in favours cus if you think about it, for someone working for the government, preventing world destruction by alien forces and such would be something the government just could not afford to properly pay for, so I would expect they'd give Edward more financial freedom (no taxes, free health/life insureance for him and his family, free trade-in on new cars or something) and honour any requests for assistance and such, Edward's not shown to be abusing his power, so I don't consider him corrupt.

The fact that he's earned it doesn't mean it's by the rules. I'm sure none of those favors can be official and are probably financed by black funds and shady operations like rigging lotteries.

Although considering the extreme qualification the wizards agents have, there probably are some unofficial rules ...

11 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Ashley helped Liz quit smoking?

When was this?

Sometimes after this comics probably.

2 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:
11 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Is Liz the Smokey Wizard who was spooked by Grace?

That doesn't seem to be her style; some of the pieces fit. Smokey was direct. OTOH, I don't see Liz having a driving urge to observe spells to copy them. Seems like something like that would have come up in conversations with Ashley, few though they were on screen in the comic.

It would explain why she's so certain about people being able to transform, however I agree that it's not her style nor it would match what was Pandora thinking about marking her.

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Just now, hkmaly said:

Ownership is not the issue here. Issue is that it was top secret alien technology.

Top secret to the US government, sure, but the previous Uryuom owner might have just been cleaning out their closet and figured as long as someone was making use of it, it was fine. There might be a dynamic between the Uryuoms and various governments that allow for this, heck, if Edward was a key reason why there's peaceful relations between Uryuoms and Earth at this time, he's probably free to interact and trade with them all he wants, why did William and Gillian go to Edward for help designing human forms? I don't think they specifically figured Edward would keep the whole deal hush hush, but I think it's because they trust him to ensure that their particular TFG didn't get abused by the US government. I imagine the same knack for keeping hostile aliens from destroying the earth has also been able to keep the government from repurposing alien tech in order to gain an advantage over other nations, or for someone to sell it as their own invention for big bucks.

It's possible Edward could single handedly get every member of the government to stop being corrupt just by expositing the into submission, but someone might decide that they could take their chances with the aliens rather than have Edward around any longer.

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57 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Top secret to the US government, sure, ...

We don't know that it is strictly a US government agency. To be effective, it would have to be more like Interpol. What is the good of suppressing the knowledge of magic in one boundary, if all the neighbors let it run wild.

It could be based on, "we'll take care of our mess, and trust you to take care of yours", but you can bet they'd still talk.

But, yes, there would be a US piece of it, either way. The paycheck and building maintenance would come from federal funds.

 

57 minutes ago, Scotty said:

 ... I think it's because they trust him to ensure that their particular TFG didn't get abused by the US government. I imagine the same knack for keeping hostile aliens from destroying the earth has also been able to keep the government from repurposing alien tech in order to gain an advantage over other nations, or for someone to sell it as their own invention for big bucks.

You are making a good case for why it has to be international.

 

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1 hour ago, Darth Fluffy said:

We don't know that it is strictly a US government agency. To be effective, it would have to be more like Interpol. What is the good of suppressing the knowledge of magic in one boundary, if all the neighbors let it run wild.

It could be based on, "we'll take care of our mess, and trust you to take care of yours", but you can bet they'd still talk.

But, yes, there would be a US piece of it, either way. The paycheck and building maintenance would come from federal funds.

 

You are making a good case for why it has to be international.

 

The Paranormal Division is a branch of the FBI, so it's a US agency.

And yes there would be other similar organizations in other countries, but since Edward works for the US, then I'm talking about the US, and it would mean that Edward has the interests of global security to consider in which case he'd want to make sure his own country doesn't try to upset the balance of power.

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Ok, we are all taught that global empires with spheres of influence over puppet states fighting proxy wars is a bad thing.

However...

When the Aliens do show up in Lunar orbit, isn't it much more convenient to deal with a committee of half a dozen world powers rather than let all two hundred UN members talk the visitors to death by debating minutiae in the General Assembly?

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15 hours ago, Scotty said:

Top secret to the US government, sure, but the previous Uryuom owner might have just been cleaning out their closet and figured as long as someone was making use of it, it was fine.

It was fine from ownership perspective. It still was abuse of his position from the national security perspective.

15 hours ago, Scotty said:

There might be a dynamic between the Uryuoms and various governments that allow for this, heck, if Edward was a key reason why there's peaceful relations between Uryuoms and Earth at this time, he's probably free to interact and trade with them all he wants, why did William and Gillian go to Edward for help designing human forms? I don't think they specifically figured Edward would keep the whole deal hush hush, but I think it's because they trust him to ensure that their particular TFG didn't get abused by the US government.

Right. Good example. That was probably also unofficial. In fact, it can be argued that they bribed him by giving Tedd access to their device. Although it's true they couldn't have any idea it would be so effective in advance.

11 hours ago, Scotty said:
14 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

You are making a good case for why it has to be international.

The Paranormal Division is a branch of the FBI, so it's a US agency.

And yes there would be other similar organizations in other countries, but since Edward works for the US, then I'm talking about the US, and it would mean that Edward has the interests of global security to consider in which case he'd want to make sure his own country doesn't try to upset the balance of power.

I would be very interested in how exactly this work if not for the fact I suspect Dan doesn't know either.

There must be some global agreement enforced by various local agencies, DGB being the US one.

However, how exactly do they manage to control states which don't have motivation to cooperate with rest of world, like North Korea?

Heck, how do they make agreement just between US, Russia and China in way which makes all of them really cooperate and not just pretend to cooperate and develop magic based weapons of mass destruction in secret? ... on the other hand, maybe such weapons ARE being developed and idealistic naive people like Edward are just not informed.

9 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Ok, we are all taught that global empires with spheres of influence over puppet states fighting proxy wars is a bad thing.

However...

When the Aliens do show up in Lunar orbit, isn't it much more convenient to deal with a committee of half a dozen world powers rather than let all two hundred UN members talk the visitors to death by debating minutiae in the General Assembly?

If Aliens show up in Lunar orbit, it's time for capitulation. We should be able to detect them sooner.

Of course, if the aliens deliberately initiate first contact (and it's not like accident) they probably already spend some time evaluating our political situation AND they have first contact protocols saying what they should do. Which is probably "wait with first contact until they solve their internal political problems".

Unless they represent organization with even worse bureaucracy than we have and would be completely ok with making their bureaucracy of thousands species talk with our bureaucracy of hundreds nations, they will probably want to talk to something little more focused but still representing most of the world, say G20.

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1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

If Aliens show up in Lunar orbit, it's time for capitulation. We should be able to detect them sooner.

So far, the space sharks are holding them off. (Or is it the other way around?)

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5 hours ago, hkmaly said:

There must be some global agreement enforced by various local agencies, DGB being the US one.

However, how exactly do they manage to control states which don't have motivation to cooperate with rest of world, like North Korea?

Heck, how do they make agreement just between US, Russia and China in way which makes all of them really cooperate and not just pretend to cooperate and develop magic based weapons of mass destruction in secret? ... on the other hand, maybe such weapons ARE being developed and idealistic naive people like Edward are just not informed.

In WWII, the US, the Soviet Union, and both Chinese factions cooperated against the Axis, and we supplied weapons to Ho Chi Minh's Viet Minh in SE Asia. If the need is urgent enough, it can be done.

That said, track record is, everyone has covert research to weaponize whatever is available, in spite of overt agreements to the contrary.

You don't hired idealistic naive people to perform an Edward function, nor is he portrayed as being that. He might not be privy to the technical details about how each system works, aside from specific need to know examples that come up in his line of work, but he would know a general sense of capabilities and limitations, what various players are capable of, and such. Recall, he convinced an alien warlord to invade elsewhere through exposition; he must have briefed capabilities.

I have more trouble with "it's part of the FBI". The FBI is about law enforcement. They tend to get a lot of oversight and FOIA types of scrutiny. If you are hiding that magic exists, you don't have laws about it. I would think a department under the Secret Service (lower profile, already doing specialized missions) (not it's own agency, with a budget line item, you want to hide this under another line item) with more or less direct executive control.

 

5 hours ago, hkmaly said:

If Aliens show up in Lunar orbit, it's time for capitulation. We should be able to detect them sooner.

We are currently tracking an interstellar asteroid that's right out of Rendezvous with Rama. Scientists that suggest it might be artificial are being scoffed at by a significant segment of their peers. I think there's something akin to change blindness that would allow aliens to show up in lunar orbit unnoticed. (When I say "we", I don't mean "me, personally".)

Also, if you recall the golem's flashback to Heka, they've been doing it for quite a while.

It's a given that they would have an awareness of stealth technology, should they choose to use it. They could have cloaking; we aren't that far from several approaches to this, I believe there's been prototypes built, and we have biological examples; octopuses in particular. (Yes, it's octopuses, Google it.)

 

5 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Of course, if the aliens deliberately initiate first contact (and it's not like accident) they probably already spend some time evaluating our political situation ...

We are going to misread each other badly. Skewed motivations that don't intersect at all are going to mislead each of us. We're already doing it, and we haven't even met anyone from another world (that I know of); people and their pets do it all the time. Hell, we do it within our own species.

 

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10 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

You don't hired idealistic naive people to perform an Edward function, nor is he portrayed as being that. He might not be privy to the technical details about how each system works, aside from specific need to know examples that come up in his line of work, but he would know a general sense of capabilities and limitations, what various players are capable of, and such. Recall, he convinced an alien warlord to invade elsewhere through exposition; he must have briefed capabilities.

Right. Maybe he just pretend to be idealistic.

Like, I agree he's not portrayed as naive (that was exaggeration on my part) but he is portrayed as someone who would not agree with US doing such research. Other players, sure. ... well, maybe he knows enough to be effective in his work but not so much he wouldn't believe it's purely defensive research.

10 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:
17 hours ago, hkmaly said:

If Aliens show up in Lunar orbit, it's time for capitulation. We should be able to detect them sooner.

We are currently tracking an interstellar asteroid that's right out of Rendezvous with Rama. Scientists that suggest it might be artificial are being scoffed at by a significant segment of their peers. I think there's something akin to change blindness that would allow aliens to show up in lunar orbit unnoticed. (When I say "we", I don't mean "me, personally".)

IF that asteroid confirmed being artificial, those scientists will be saying "we totally knew this" in prime time on all TVs. This actually confirms that we SHOULD be able to detect them - we may just not necessary confirm them as aliens.

(EDIT: Ok, wikipedia page is not so certain about it, claiming we may be missing several each year ... and we only noticed this one quite late ... but I still think we would notice them better if their trajectory would get closer to Earth OR if they change direction.)

10 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

Also, if you recall the golem's flashback to Heka, they've been doing it for quite a while.

The fact ancient Egyptians didn't noticed is more plausible than NASA not noticing.

10 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

It's a given that they would have an awareness of stealth technology, should they choose to use it. They could have cloaking; we aren't that far from several approaches to this, I believe there's been prototypes built, and we have biological examples; octopuses in particular. (Yes, it's octopuses, Google it.)

It's ὀκτώποδες actually.

And that's why I was talking about capitulation. Aliens which will use stealth technology to appear on Lunar orbit are likely to be hostile ; if they WOULDN'T be hostile, they would DELIBERATELY show they are coming to reduce fear and allow us to get used to the idea of someone visiting us.

(I mean, at least with one ship. There might be four other, bigger cloaked ship around "just to be sure", who would be waiting on Lunar orbit and observe our reaction to the first ship showing up. If the first contact would go well, this wouldn't be revealed for hundred years ; if not, we will notice them firing of course.)

10 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:
17 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Of course, if the aliens deliberately initiate first contact (and it's not like accident) they probably already spend some time evaluating our political situation ...

We are going to misread each other badly. Skewed motivations that don't intersect at all are going to mislead each of us. We're already doing it, and we haven't even met anyone from another world (that I know of); people and their pets do it all the time. Hell, we do it within our own species.

The difference is that unlike the pets, the aliens would be aware of this risk and will deliberately be trying to reduce it. AND they will likely have more experience with it - even if we would be first other intelligent species they discover, they would necessarily be more advanced given they already have starships.

Also, WE will be putting more effort into communication as well ... at least I hope so.

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1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Right. Maybe he just pretend to be idealistic.

Like, I agree he's not portrayed as naive (that was exaggeration on my part) but he is portrayed as someone who would not agree with US doing such research. Other players, sure. ... well, maybe he knows enough to be effective in his work but not so much he wouldn't believe it's purely defensive research.

IF that asteroid confirmed being artificial, those scientists will be saying "we totally knew this" in prime time on all TVs. This actually confirms that we SHOULD be able to detect them - we may just not necessary confirm them as aliens.

(EDIT: Ok, wikipedia page is not so certain about it, claiming we may be missing several each year ... and we only noticed this one quite late ... but I still think we would notice them better if their trajectory would get closer to Earth OR if they change direction.)

The fact ancient Egyptians didn't noticed is more plausible than NASA not noticing.

It's ὀκτώποδες actually.

And that's why I was talking about capitulation. Aliens which will use stealth technology to appear on Lunar orbit are likely to be hostile ; if they WOULDN'T be hostile, they would DELIBERATELY show they are coming to reduce fear and allow us to get used to the idea of someone visiting us.

(I mean, at least with one ship. There might be four other, bigger cloaked ship around "just to be sure", who would be waiting on Lunar orbit and observe our reaction to the first ship showing up. If the first contact would go well, this wouldn't be revealed for hundred years ; if not, we will notice them firing of course.)

The difference is that unlike the pets, the aliens would be aware of this risk and will deliberately be trying to reduce it. AND they will likely have more experience with it - even if we would be first other intelligent species they discover, they would necessarily be more advanced given they already have starships.

Also, WE will be putting more effort into communication as well ... at least I hope so.

I do not share your optimism. Our track record is not good.

 

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2 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:
4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Also, WE will be putting more effort into communication as well ... at least I hope so.

I do not share your optimism. Our track record is not good.

There's nothing else known to man that communicates "we don't like you" quite as effectively as a barrage of nuclear-warhead missiles.

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2 hours ago, Don Edwards said:
4 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:
6 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Also, WE will be putting more effort into communication as well ... at least I hope so.

I do not share your optimism. Our track record is not good.

There's nothing else known to man that communicates "we don't like you" quite as effectively as a barrage of nuclear-warhead missiles.

Even if by "known to man" you mean "we are already capable to use it", there are also Rods from God: you may believe those are not on orbit yet but I'm sure we are capable to get them there quite fast.

Now, regarding how many weapons worse than nuclear warheads we would be able to RECOGNIZE when used against us ... the list would be long.

And regarding the optimism: We never faced enemy who is on higher technology level than us. Our experience says that in such situation we must hope they have better track record than we do or we are dead.

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On 7/5/2019 at 6:42 PM, hkmaly said:

Right. Maybe he just pretend to be idealistic.

Like, I agree he's not portrayed as naive (that was exaggeration on my part) but he is portrayed as someone who would not agree with US doing such research. Other players, sure. ... well, maybe he knows enough to be effective in his work but not so much he wouldn't believe it's purely defensive research.

It seems to me that Mr. Verres would be the sort to be uncomfortable with the idea of WMDs (magical or otherwise), and object to their use if he were in a position to do so, but not let those feelings get in the way of working for a government he knows has them. So idealism limited by practicality.

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