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Tom Sewell

Story Monday, July 22, 2019

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An intelligent predator may take an interest in the well-being of a prey species, but its interest in prey individuals is seriously colored by thoughts of lunch. This is probably inevitable, even if the predator was previously of the prey species.

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21 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:
23 hours ago, hkmaly said:

That's not for you to decide.

It's for someone to decide; you seem to be avoiding that issue.

The answer was just above this one.

Like, obviously I don't know how it's named (remember that DGB is unlikely to be official acronym of the organization we use it for either) but there must be someone (hopefully multiple someones) high in government structure knowing about magic and making rules for decisions like this.

They are not directly voted and the people who ARE voted likely don't get true description of what they are doing, but the same is true for secret services in our universe. (Or, like, remember how the president in Independence Day didn't know about area 51?) You may not like it but it's how it works.

21 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:
23 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Not into the fact if he's aberration. Granted, danger is the main argument if you are trying to make a point that despite not being aberration he doesn't deserve to live.

... portion? Said like this, yes. But it needs to take into account how likely it was that he escapes.

Consider "I'm going to take revenge on the person that harmed me." vs "I'm going to take revenge out on others, especially since I'm ineffectual at taking out revenge on the one that harmed me; she may kill me." No sense of, "They really weren't involved.", and it must have been deliberate, because he's on a different continent.

Then again, I'm not a fan of the notion that Charles Manson was not given the death penalty. The death penalty is very unpopular, there are good and valid reasons, it has often been abused. But I view it as a culture's immune defense system. If your immune defense system is too aggressive, it harms you; leukemia or allergies, if it is not aggressive enough, that harms you; immune deficiency. There is a balance, and it is necessary to have both protection from the monsters and mercy for the mere miscreants.

Yeah, you are making good argument. It's just that without knowing what are the options for containing magic users, we can't really judge if he MUST be killed. And, yes, death penalty is very unpopular. I agree that there are people who totally deserves it (in cases where there is no doubt they did it) but considering that dead penalty is rarely used even in our universe US AND the fact that EGS is generally nicer, I doubt they would have death penalty unless absolutely necessary.

21 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

The rational genius of the four girls came to the same conclusion about non-Tengu. Wolf agrees non-Tengu is dangerous.

Note that Diane herself became less sure if they should kill him when she found he's human ... and Wolf went with the ambulance, without any attempt to kill him.

21 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:
23 hours ago, hkmaly said:

As an alternative to Batman, consider Magneto: he was being hold in special glass cell. He wouldn't be able to get out if Mystique didn't put lot of iron into that guard. It can be argued that it was worth the risk. Although it must've cost lot of money ...

Magneto, at least in his modern incarnation, is not an entirely unsympathetic character. His sub-culture, his mutant identity, is beleaguered in his world, and he is one response to it. In at least one back story he is a Holocaust survivor; you can see where that would influence his outlook.

Considering the movie continuity specifically shows he's Holocaust survivor (and I think it implies his parents didn't survive) yeah totally. However, while sympathetic, he's definitely dangerous. He tried to KILL ALL (non-mutant) HUMANS actually.

21 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

I'm not sure it makes sense that he's merely incarcerated from the point of view of his non-mutant opponents; maybe they need to do that as a token gesture to keep the non-hostile mutants in line. But ultimately, his incarceration is story driven; "We'll want to reuse this character."

That out-of-universe reason is true even for Batman of course. Note that considering Charles Xavier visits him in the prison, it's possible he's not killed because Charles (as a representative of law-abiding mutants) insisted. (Or, like, maybe he mind-controlled someone :))

2 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:
11 hours ago, Scotty said:

Sirleck implied that there were other reasons that he chose to become a bodysnatcher and that they were initially good intentioned, but over the years he lost any empathy he had.

He didn't actually say it was over years; it may be that the moment he became an Aberration, he lost all his good intentions and any remaining empathy.

Quote

But it's probably likely most aberrations had very little empathy to begin with and greed and power were what drove them to becoming aberrations.

I actually have just a teensy little bit of sympathy for Sirleck based on what he told of his history.  Makes me think of Harry Dresden -- taking extreme measures in order to gain power for good ends, but those very measures trying to destroy all interest in those good ends.  I could picture him being a well-intentioned extremist who might have had some hope of redemption if he hadn't taken that last step over the edge.

Yes ; aberrations likely didn't have much empathy to start with, but when becaming aberration, they COMPLETELY lost it.

1 hour ago, CritterKeeper said:
16 hours ago, ijuin said:

It used to be that the Federal Government and State/Territorial Governments would put "Wanted Dead or Alive" on the Wanted posters for the most dangerous criminals. Getting known killers out of circulation was a higher priority than granting the killer his right to a fair trial.

Yes, and it used to be that a black man would be beaten to death if he whistled at a white woman, and a woman couldn't charge her husband with rape because she was considered to have given perpetual consent to whatever he wanted when she married him,  The way it used to be usually changed to the way it is now for a reason.

Of course it is for some reason. In lot of cases including the ones you mentioned it was even GOOD reason.

1 hour ago, CritterKeeper said:

If nothing else, there were plenty of cases of mistaken identity, frame-ups, fabricated evidence and false witness, all sorts of things that might come out if the accused got a trial.  Too many real bad guys got away with murder and worse because someone else was killed for the crime before they could get a trial.  Even today, people are found to have been innocent who had already been executed, or had lost decades of their lives rotting in prison for crimes they were proven innocent of.  At least if they're alive, the wrongfully convicted have a chance of proving they're innocent.

The trial has two purposes: first is to determine if the person accused really did it ; second is to determine what should be his punishment. Those two purposes can't be independent ; sure, ideally we shouldn't EVER convict someone who didn't do it, but if death penalty is allowed, we need to be extra careful giving it to people who might later succeed in appeal. At least until we will have means to revert it.

18 minutes ago, Don Edwards said:

An intelligent predator may take an interest in the well-being of a prey species, but its interest in prey individuals is seriously colored by thoughts of lunch. This is probably inevitable, even if the predator was previously of the prey species.

Or dinner. :)

But I think that the process of turning into aberration really has some immediate consequences.

21 minutes ago, Darth Fluffy said:
1 hour ago, CritterKeeper said:

Look at Magus.  He committed some truly awful acts, working with an Aberration and conspiring to set other Aberrations loose in a public space surrounded by innocents; kidnapping and mental domination, body-snatching....we know he had good reasons, but what if he'd been killed in the process?

Magus was using Sirleck and planned to kill him more so than working with him. He was planning that the other aberrations would be killed as well.

Those are very good points which should be mentioned in his trial, IF HE GETS ANY.

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4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

They are not directly voted and the people who ARE voted likely don't get true description of what they are doing, but the same is true for secret services in our universe. (Or, like, remember how the president in Independence Day didn't know about area 51?) You may not like it but it's how it works.

I don't believe that's essentially true. Granted, people are imperfect, and will tend to shade the details to favor themselves, but the PoTUS bypasses the normal access rules. He's Commander in Chief, Head of State, approves or declines the budget (setting overrides aside), and can pardon anyone. Pretty sure need to know is a given, based on all the hats. Guessing that's also true for the VP. If we're going to back up our position with works of fiction, I'll go with National Treasure: Book of Secrets.

 

4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Note that Diane herself became less sure if they should kill him when she found he's human ... and Wolf went with the ambulance, without any attempt to kill him.

Diane is less than convinced, and Wolf followed protocol, not to say he thought it was a good idea for the case  in point. Interesting point, we've never seen them deal with an actual aberration, nor how they would have dealt with non-Tengu, what level of lethality. Neither Susan, nor Nanase, nor Adrian get in trouble for killing them. Recall, Noriko is a vampire slayer, apparently sanctioned. Noriko went after non-Tengu, apparently attempted to kill him, no hint of violating his rights in doing so in the bits of backstory we've seen. If she's anything like Nanase, she's very responsible, abandoning Edward and Tedd aside.

 

 
4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Considering the movie continuity specifically shows he's Holocaust survivor (and I think it implies his parents didn't survive) yeah totally. However, while sympathetic, he's definitely dangerous. He tried to KILL ALL (non-mutant) HUMANS actually.

It wasn't clear you meant just the movie version, but if that's the case, they were crazy for keeping him around. He fits both of your criteria; dangerous, and no empathy (toward the normal humans).

 

4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

The trial has two purposes: first is to determine if the person accused really did it ; second is to determine what should be his punishment. Those two purposes can't be independent ; sure, ideally we shouldn't EVER convict someone who didn't do it, but if death penalty is allowed, we need to be extra careful giving it to people who might later succeed in appeal. At least until we will have means to revert it.

Often the failures are attributable to cultural prejudice and mob justice (police complicity with vigilante mentality). A good portion of the remaining cases are sloppy or incompetent police work. Then there's pressure to convict, careers depend on finding someone to take the blame. Then there's low motivation to keep on digging once the erroneous conviction is accomplished.

A case can be made for juries exacerbating this situation. A single judge can be arbitrary, but a panel of say three or five can competently decide with with some sense of checks and balances. Hence, the Supreme Court of the US.

 

4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Those are very good points which should be mentioned in his trial, IF HE [Magus] GETS ANY [trial].

Apparently, he doesn't get one, Arthur decides. I've already expressed, I don't think Arthur's comment makes sense. I like Arthur, I think he means well, and is very competent, but there's a horizon to his thinking that he seems to not do well looking beyond. He's not the guy that's going to cut a mutually beneficial deal with Magus. He's too full of his own trivial sense of how things ought to be.

I doubt they'll catch him, anyway. I'm guessing they can do something like scrying, and that he is able to block that, or they would have found him right away, no pizza comic. (While his actual statement, "You would not believe how long it's been since I've eaten anything" is literally true, the implication, "I'm really hungry, I didn't eat forever" doesn't make sense, though. Either he didn't need to eat, or he should have starved. He wasn't weakened by long term starvation during the battle. Maybe calories for some kind of magic recovery?)

On another note, we don't know how long Magus was trapped. Seems he didn't age. How long has passed in his world? Is Tess traumatized by apparently having killed him? Is she much older than he is now?

Does this agent look like he's wearing a Groucho Marx disguise?

 

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1 hour ago, Darth Fluffy said:

Apparently, he doesn't get one, Arthur decides. I've already expressed, I don't think Arthur's comment makes sense. I like Arthur, I think he means well, and is very competent, but there's a horizon to his thinking that he seems to not do well looking beyond. He's not the guy that's going to cut a mutually beneficial deal with Magus. He's too full of his own trivial sense of how things ought to be.

I understood that as meaning that they would continue to pursue him (presumably intending to arrest him), not as in any way indicating that Magus would not get a trial. *scratches head*

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4 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

I understood that as meaning that they would continue to pursue him (presumably intending to arrest him), not as in any way indicating that Magus would not get a trial. *scratches head*

True.

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1 hour ago, Darth Fluffy said:
6 hours ago, hkmaly said:

They are not directly voted and the people who ARE voted likely don't get true description of what they are doing, but the same is true for secret services in our universe. (Or, like, remember how the president in Independence Day didn't know about area 51?) You may not like it but it's how it works.

I don't believe that's essentially true. Granted, people are imperfect, and will tend to shade the details to favor themselves, but the PoTUS bypasses the normal access rules. He's Commander in Chief, Head of State, approves or declines the budget (setting overrides aside), and can pardon anyone. Pretty sure need to know is a given, based on all the hats. Guessing that's also true for the VP. If we're going to back up our position with works of fiction, I'll go with National Treasure: Book of Secrets.

I must admit that as someone who never was and can't be PoTUS I don't really know, but the idea that someone tells any of last presidents stuff like "aliens exists and are here so long they are not technically aliens" and "magic exists and it's easy to obtain" is scary.

1 hour ago, Darth Fluffy said:
6 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Note that Diane herself became less sure if they should kill him when she found he's human ... and Wolf went with the ambulance, without any attempt to kill him.

Diane is less than convinced, and Wolf followed protocol, not to say he thought it was a good idea for the case  in point. Interesting point, we've never seen them deal with an actual aberration, nor how they would have dealt with non-Tengu, what level of lethality. Neither Susan, nor Nanase, nor Adrian get in trouble for killing them. Recall, Noriko is a vampire slayer, apparently sanctioned. Noriko went after non-Tengu, apparently attempted to kill him, no hint of violating his rights in doing so in the bits of backstory we've seen. If she's anything like Nanase, she's very responsible, abandoning Edward and Tedd aside.

Noriko is a vampire slayer, that doesn't mean it's her only occupation, and the fact she didn't wanted to kill not-Tengu might contributed to fact he got away. Also, even if she DID tried to kill him, it would be same situation as when police shots armed criminals ... not execution of someone who currently can't defend himself.

1 hour ago, Darth Fluffy said:
6 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Considering the movie continuity specifically shows he's Holocaust survivor (and I think it implies his parents didn't survive) yeah totally. However, while sympathetic, he's definitely dangerous. He tried to KILL ALL (non-mutant) HUMANS actually.

It wasn't clear you meant just the movie version, but if that's the case, they were crazy for keeping him around. He fits both of your criteria; dangerous, and no empathy (toward the normal humans).

The comics are full of reboots and I have no idea how many times Magneto was in prison. I meant specifically the movie one because it's really one specific.

And, to be fair, the bit with killing all humans and other proofs he has no empathy towards humans (when Mystique was turned human, he acted as if she died) happened after the prison.

11 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:
1 hour ago, Darth Fluffy said:

Apparently, he doesn't get one, Arthur decides. I've already expressed, I don't think Arthur's comment makes sense. I like Arthur, I think he means well, and is very competent, but there's a horizon to his thinking that he seems to not do well looking beyond. He's not the guy that's going to cut a mutually beneficial deal with Magus. He's too full of his own trivial sense of how things ought to be.

I understood that as meaning that they would continue to pursue him (presumably intending to arrest him), not as in any way indicating that Magus would not get a trial. *scratches head*

It might also mean that Arthur personally would argue to press charges, but I don't think he would go as far as killing him without trial either.

1 hour ago, Darth Fluffy said:

I doubt they'll catch him, anyway. I'm guessing they can do something like scrying, and that he is able to block that, or they would have found him right away, no pizza comic.

They could also try to track his money ... we talked about that one actually.

1 hour ago, Darth Fluffy said:

(While his actual statement, "You would not believe how long it's been since I've eaten anything" is literally true, the implication, "I'm really hungry, I didn't eat forever" doesn't make sense, though. Either he didn't need to eat, or he should have starved. He wasn't weakened by long term starvation during the battle. Maybe calories for some kind of magic recovery?)

You mean during the battle which happened minutes after he got his own body?

He didn't need to eat while on spirit plane. Then he possessed Elliot, who likely had normal lunch. This lunch was copied by diamond. So, biologically speaking, he MAYBE missed dinner - or the pizza was late dinner. But he personally didn't eat anything since he appeared in our world.

(And, yes, while he could be hungry, it was normal hunger of teenager who didn't had dinner, not the kind of hunger matching the years he didn't eat. He was looking forward to the experience he missed.)

1 hour ago, Darth Fluffy said:

On another note, we don't know how long Magus was trapped. Seems he didn't age. How long has passed in his world? Is Tess traumatized by apparently having killed him? Is she much older than he is now?

The comics says two years ago, presumably relative to this comics, so, like, about 33 months?

And so far we didn't saw any example of time passing differently in different worlds.

I don't think Tess care. Terra, however, might be traumatized, and that's even if she has abilities to determine that he wasn't killed but just moved.

33 months however don't seem like fatal age difference.

1 hour ago, Darth Fluffy said:

Does this agent look like he's wearing a Groucho Marx disguise?

Maybe he does. Not everyone might think it's good idea to show their face to some kids like Arthur.

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4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Noriko is a vampire slayer, that doesn't mean it's her only occupation, and the fact she didn't wanted to kill not-Tengu might contributed to fact he got away. Also, even if she DID tried to kill him, it would be same situation as when police shots armed criminals ... not execution of someone who currently can't defend himself.

That could be. I did not get the impression anyone would miss him, though.

If she did let him go, I bet she would not have had she been aware of how he would repay her kindness.

 

4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

It might also mean that Arthur personally would argue to press charges, but I don't think he would go as far as killing him without trial either.

I'm not sure why we're going there. Magus is nothing like the aberrations. Arthur has acknowledged that.

 

4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

They could also try to track his money ... we talked about that one actually.

That works well in real life. But it's not conclusive that they know about the money, nor who was Sirleck's rich host. He does not appear to be spending profligately enough to be an anomaly.

 

4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

You mean during the battle which happened minutes after he got his own body? No, afterward, in the hotel; the linked comic.

He didn't need to eat while on spirit plane. Yes, that was one of two contradictory observations. Then he possessed Elliot, who likely had normal lunch. This lunch was copied by diamond. So, biologically speaking, he MAYBE missed dinner - or the pizza was late dinner. But he personally didn't eat anything since he appeared in our world. The placement of the pizza comic is between them being driven ... to their car? ... and them arriving home, so likely later the same evening. A late dinner.

(And, yes, while he could be hungry, it was normal hunger of teenager who didn't had dinner, not the kind of hunger matching the years he didn't eat. He was looking forward to the experience he missed.) You read "I'm really hungry, I didn't eat forever" different than I did. That doesn't sound like "I missed dinner" to me. I agree that the stack does not look all that large, but the price says there's more than the comic shows. More than even a hungry teen would eat.

The comics says two years ago, presumably relative to this comics, so, like, about 33 months? It's a good number.

 

Too many individual comments, would have been messy to break it up.

 

4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

And so far we didn't saw any example of time passing differently in different worlds. You're right, we haven't. I guess it's a safe tentative bet that Dan's not going to do that. Minor point, at their age, you could probably notice three years of age difference, yet he seems to be their age, or possibly a bit older.

I don't think Tess care. Terra, however, might be traumatized, and that's even if she has abilities to determine that he wasn't killed but just moved. I got the name wrong, but you knew who I meant and are reaching the same conclusion.

33 months however don't seem like fatal age difference. Three years of difference gets trivial, when meeting someone. They have a history, then three years of worry and guilt, but I'm sure she'll be happy to see him. Yeah, not a problem. But, she's advanced three years in training, and maybe has guilt about what happened, I could see her becoming overly cautions in their sparring.

 

4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Maybe he does. Not everyone might think it's good idea to show their face to some kids like Arthur. It is the iconic lame disguise. It would, however, functionally hide his features, as you say.

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Just now, hkmaly said:

Noriko is a vampire slayer, that doesn't mean it's her only occupation, and the fact she didn't wanted to kill not-Tengu might contributed to fact he got away. Also, even if she DID tried to kill him, it would be same situation as when police shots armed criminals ... not execution of someone who currently can't defend himself.

Noriko is a monster hunter who's family was known for fighting monsters and evil wizards. She probably could have killed him as evidenced by the scar across Not_Tengu's face, but yes, her superiors probably would have preferred she arrest him if possible unless he really put up a fight. Getting gashed across the face likely lead to a hasty retreat before Noriko could either finish him off or make the arrest. So I don't think it would have made much difference if there was intent to kill or not.

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13 hours ago, Scotty said:
19 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Noriko is a vampire slayer, that doesn't mean it's her only occupation, and the fact she didn't wanted to kill not-Tengu might contributed to fact he got away. Also, even if she DID tried to kill him, it would be same situation as when police shots armed criminals ... not execution of someone who currently can't defend himself.

Noriko is a monster hunter who's family was known for fighting monsters and evil wizards. She probably could have killed him as evidenced by the scar across Not_Tengu's face, but yes, her superiors probably would have preferred she arrest him if possible unless he really put up a fight. Getting gashed across the face likely lead to a hasty retreat before Noriko could either finish him off or make the arrest. So I don't think it would have made much difference if there was intent to kill or not.

Or maybe not superiors but she considered arresting him as more honorable or something.

3 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

Remember, not-Tengu was of unknown "alive" status.

We don't know if Noriko - who, by the way, is listed as a monster-hunter not a vampire-slayer - intended to kill him or not, but apparently that was regarded as an acceptable outcome. Or at least preferable to leaving him free to roam.

It may be hard to guess how much regeneration monster forms like not-Tengu's is giving. Presumably, either the scar was not only injury or it looked bigger than now, so it might've been considered possible that he died on injuries Noriko gave him.

And, yes, people would likely not protest too much if she would kill him if she would said he fought too well to be arrested alive. They would still prefer if she arrested him.

14 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:
19 hours ago, hkmaly said:

They could also try to track his money ... we talked about that one actually.

That works well in real life. But it's not conclusive that they know about the money, nor who was Sirleck's rich host. He does not appear to be spending profligately enough to be an anomaly.

Hmmm ... it would be make sense if Ellen told them, but we are not sure if it was part of recapping. However, Ellen likely didn't KNOW who was the rich host, so yes, it would be harder than normally. They can still like try to investigate all rich people dying recently whose money happen to disappear ...

14 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:
19 hours ago, hkmaly said:

(And, yes, while he could be hungry, it was normal hunger of teenager who didn't had dinner, not the kind of hunger matching the years he didn't eat. He was looking forward to the experience he missed.) You read "I'm really hungry, I didn't eat forever" different than I did. That doesn't sound like "I missed dinner" to me. I agree that the stack does not look all that large, but the price says there's more than the comic shows. More than even a hungry teen would eat.

Too many individual comments, would have been messy to break it up.

Regarding the price and the amount of pizza, yes ... either he use calories for magic like Nanase, or he wouldn't actually be able to eat all that and he failed to realize what I was saying about how biologically he can't be THAT hungry.

... actually, even if people really starve, they can't "fix it" by eating a lot at next opportunity ; it's the other way around - if you are really hungry, you need to eat slowly and carefully. Like, based on what I read, I wasn't that much hungry yet.

14 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

And so far we didn't saw any example of time passing differently in different worlds. You're right, we haven't. I guess it's a safe tentative bet that Dan's not going to do that. Minor point, at their age, you could probably notice three years of age difference, yet he seems to be their age, or possibly a bit older.

I'm pretty sure he didn't aged in spirit world either and his body looks like it looked three years ago.

14 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

Maybe he does. Not everyone might think it's good idea to show their face to some kids like Arthur. It is the iconic lame disguise. It would, however, functionally hide his features, as you say.

Yes ; it's funny and lame but still works. Also, it may not be like mask or something ; it may be illusion or transformation spell deliberately inspired by that iconic lame disguise (meaning, someone though it's funny ; I think we can think about several examples of who, and surprise, they can also give people spells, so ...)

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46 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Yes ; it's funny and lame but still works. Also, it may not be like mask or something ; it may be illusion or transformation spell deliberately inspired by that iconic lame disguise (meaning, someone though it's funny ; I think we can think about several examples of who, and surprise, they can also give people spells, so ...)

The magic version should  come with a cigar, or do you think No Smoking sentiments would override?

“A child of five could understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five.” ― Groucho Marx
 

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2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Yes ; it's funny and lame but still works. Also, it may not be like mask or something ; it may be illusion or transformation spell deliberately inspired by that iconic lame disguise (meaning, someone though it's funny ; I think we can think about several examples of who, and surprise, they can also give people spells, so ...)

Hmm, yes. Perhaps the idea is that people who see him only remember the "Groucho mask" appearance instead of his actual face.

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15 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

Remember, not-Tengu was of unknown "alive" status.

We don't know if Noriko - who, by the way, is listed as a monster-hunter not a vampire-slayer - intended to kill him or not, but apparently that was regarded as an acceptable outcome. Or at least preferable to leaving him free to roam.

It depends on how the fight went and how Not_Tengu made his retreat, like maybe Noriko threw Not_Tengu over a cliff into a raging river or he intentionally jumped and either way no body was found.

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On 8/2/2019 at 5:47 PM, Darth Fluffy said:

Someone robbing a bank may intend to only use the gun to intimidate people, and plan on their accomplices doing the same, but sometimes things don't go as planned, sometimes people get shot during robberies, and the robbers don't get any slack just because they didn't plan on killing anyone.  Magus is the one who instigated the whole plot; Sirleck was recruited by him and was nominally under his command.  Any harm that came because of Sirleck, Magus would be legally culpable as much as Sirleck, if not moreso.

On 8/2/2019 at 6:09 PM, hkmaly said:

Considering the movie continuity specifically shows he's Holocaust survivor (and I think it implies his parents didn't survive) yeah totally. However, while sympathetic, he's definitely dangerous. He tried to KILL ALL (non-mutant) HUMANS actually.

Magneto's plan and characterization in the first movie was much better.  How do you get a persecuted minority to not be persecuted any more?  Make it so the people in power are members of that group.  As the in-movie history lesson said, why did Rome stop killing Christians?  Because the Emperor became a Christian.  Magneto didn't want to kill anyone in that story, he wanted to turn non-mutants into mutants.  He didn't know that the transformation was unstable and everyone affected might die.  After the first movie established his character so well, it was really jarring to see him behave so differently in that later movie.  Not saying it couldn't have been done believably, but the writer(s) just didn't lay the groundwork for it.

On 8/2/2019 at 11:47 PM, Darth Fluffy said:

I don't believe that's essentially true. Granted, people are imperfect, and will tend to shade the details to favor themselves, but the PoTUS bypasses the normal access rules. He's Commander in Chief, Head of State, approves or declines the budget (setting overrides aside), and can pardon anyone. Pretty sure need to know is a given, based on all the hats. Guessing that's also true for the VP. If we're going to back up our position with works of fiction, I'll go with National Treasure: Book of Secrets.

There is a difference between bringing facts to POTUS's attention when they become relevant, and piling on an overwhelming number of facts about all branches of their duties the minute they take office.  It would be quite reasonable to not bother the President with, say, the strategic value of a particular town in the border, until it becomes relevant, say by an enemy moving their troop exercises close to that town.  A good leader can't do or know everything themself, they have to rely on good subordinates to bring them the relevant facts as they become relevant.

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 Interesting point, we've never seen them deal with an actual aberration, nor how they would have dealt with non-Tengu, what level of lethality. Neither Susan, nor Nanase, nor Adrian get in trouble for killing them. Recall, Noriko is a vampire slayer, apparently sanctioned. Noriko went after non-Tengu, apparently attempted to kill him, no hint of violating his rights in doing so in the bits of backstory we've seen. If she's anything like Nanase, she's very responsible, abandoning Edward and Tedd aside.

We have no idea of the circumstances of the battle between Noriko and Not-Tengu.  She could have been trying to kill him outright, she could have been trying to subdue him or disable him and take him in, she could have been defending innocent civilians and only injured him to the extent necessary to drive him away.  We do know that Wolf refers to "the last time someone took this guy down," not to someone trying to kill him specifically.

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It wasn't clear you meant just the movie version, but if that's the case, they were crazy for keeping him around. He fits both of your criteria; dangerous, and no empathy (toward the normal humans).

Again, in the first movie, he saw non-Mutants as potential recruits, so if nothing else, he saw them as having value that way.

I'm pretty sure Magneto equated the non-Mutants who persecuted Mutants to the Nazis who persecuted Jews (and a boatload of other groups).  How much empathy do you expect a Jew to have for Nazis, especially while the Holocaust is still going on?

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Often the failures are attributable to cultural prejudice and mob justice (police complicity with vigilante mentality). A good portion of the remaining cases are sloppy or incompetent police work. Then there's pressure to convict, careers depend on finding someone to take the blame. Then there's low motivation to keep on digging once the erroneous conviction is accomplished.

Yup, all sorts of reasons exist for a wrongful conviction to occur.  Every one of them is a reason not to take an irrevocable step like execution.

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A case can be made for juries exacerbating this situation. A single judge can be arbitrary, but a panel of say three or five can competently decide with with some sense of checks and balances. Hence, the Supreme Court of the US.

And of course, that august body *never* lets politics come into their decisions, never votes along party lines...oh, wait....

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I agree that Arthur was only deciding whether to continue pursuing Magus, rather like the Distirct Attourney deciding whose case gets prosecuted, or the Police Chief deciding which criminals to devote which resources to finding. 

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I've already expressed, I don't think Arthur's comment makes sense. I like Arthur, I think he means well, and is very competent, but there's a horizon to his thinking that he seems to not do well looking beyond. He's not the guy that's going to cut a mutually beneficial deal with Magus. He's too full of his own trivial sense of how things ought to be.

I don't think we can go that far; more like, he might draw the line for a "mutually beneficial deal" in a different spot than Edward would have, or Magus would have preferred.  I'm curious how he'll react when he learns that Tedd isn't always a "she".

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While his actual statement, "You would not believe how long it's been since I've eaten anything" is literally true, the implication, "I'm really hungry, I didn't eat forever" doesn't make sense, though. Either he didn't need to eat, or he should have starved. He wasn't weakened by long term starvation during the battle. Maybe calories for some kind of magic recovery?

I think it was more the pleasurable experience of eating, of the textures and smells and flavors of food, and the pleasure of being able to satisfy a basic biological need, not actual physical hunger.  And yes, calories being burned to fuel magic may be a factor in how much food he got, but so might wanting to try several different toppings and combinations.  Here's hoping his hotel room has a little fridge for storing leftovers!

On 8/3/2019 at 1:19 AM, hkmaly said:

I must admit that as someone who never was and can't be PoTUS I don't really know, but the idea that someone tells any of last presidents stuff like "aliens exists and are here so long they are not technically aliens" and "magic exists and it's easy to obtain" is scary.

Definitely a case I can see where need-to-know is taken seriously.  If POTUS needs to know, they'll be told, but if the lower authorities can handle things, why tell someone who might Tweet it to the whole world?

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The comics says two years ago, presumably relative to this comics, so, like, about 33 months?

And so far we didn't saw any example of time passing differently in different worlds.

 Terra....might be traumatized, and that's even if she has abilities to determine that he wasn't killed but just moved.

33 months however don't seem like fatal age difference.

I just recently fnished reading the book The Dead Zone, in which the protagonist is in a coma for four and a half years.  It was written in the late 70s, so you can imagine the kinds of changes he had to adjust to.  There's also Spider Robinson's short story "The Time Traveler" (one of the early Callahan's Place stories), where a man was in prison in a third world country for several years.  The world he came back to was so strange to him he was almost ready to commit suicide.  Things change a lot more quickly than we realize, because we're living through it one day at a time.

As to whether Terra knew what happened, that is a very good question, one I hope we eventually learn the answer to.  It would be interesting if she showed up to save the day.  Lots of possibilities there!  Hmm, perhaps involving her squeezing through a small portal that Magus can't fit through because he chose the larger masculine frame?  ;-)

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2 hours ago, Scotty said:
On 8/3/2019 at 11:37 PM, Don Edwards said:

Remember, not-Tengu was of unknown "alive" status.

We don't know if Noriko - who, by the way, is listed as a monster-hunter not a vampire-slayer - intended to kill him or not, but apparently that was regarded as an acceptable outcome. Or at least preferable to leaving him free to roam.

It depends on how the fight went and how Not_Tengu made his retreat, like maybe Noriko threw Not_Tengu over a cliff into a raging river or he intentionally jumped and either way no body was found.

Considering Not Tengu can fly, if he fall from cliff and no body was found I don't think they would assume he died.

1 hour ago, CritterKeeper said:
On 8/3/2019 at 0:47 AM, Darth Fluffy said:

Someone robbing a bank may intend to only use the gun to intimidate people, and plan on their accomplices doing the same, but sometimes things don't go as planned, sometimes people get shot during robberies, and the robbers don't get any slack just because they didn't plan on killing anyone.  Magus is the one who instigated the whole plot; Sirleck was recruited by him and was nominally under his command.  Any harm that came because of Sirleck, Magus would be legally culpable as much as Sirleck, if not moreso.

IF something went not as planned. As far as we know, the vampires really didn't killed anyone.

1 hour ago, CritterKeeper said:
On 8/3/2019 at 6:47 AM, Darth Fluffy said:

I don't believe that's essentially true. Granted, people are imperfect, and will tend to shade the details to favor themselves, but the PoTUS bypasses the normal access rules. He's Commander in Chief, Head of State, approves or declines the budget (setting overrides aside), and can pardon anyone. Pretty sure need to know is a given, based on all the hats. Guessing that's also true for the VP. If we're going to back up our position with works of fiction, I'll go with National Treasure: Book of Secrets.

There is a difference between bringing facts to POTUS's attention when they become relevant, and piling on an overwhelming number of facts about all branches of their duties the minute they take office.  It would be quite reasonable to not bother the President with, say, the strategic value of a particular town in the border, until it becomes relevant, say by an enemy moving their troop exercises close to that town.  A good leader can't do or know everything themself, they have to rely on good subordinates to bring them the relevant facts as they become relevant.

Yes ... it's possible the necessary laws an treaties were made and/or signed by one of previous presidents, who DID knew about magic, but existence of magic is not automatically mentioned to every president until something really problematic happens.

1 hour ago, CritterKeeper said:
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It wasn't clear you meant just the movie version, but if that's the case, they were crazy for keeping him around. He fits both of your criteria; dangerous, and no empathy (toward the normal humans).

Again, in the first movie, he saw non-Mutants as potential recruits, so if nothing else, he saw them as having value that way.

I'm pretty sure Magneto equated the non-Mutants who persecuted Mutants to the Nazis who persecuted Jews (and a boatload of other groups).  How much empathy do you expect a Jew to have for Nazis, especially while the Holocaust is still going on?

And with good reasons: the parallels were very obvious.

1 hour ago, CritterKeeper said:

Magneto didn't want to kill anyone in that story, he wanted to turn non-mutants into mutants.  He didn't know that the transformation was unstable and everyone affected might die.  After the first movie established his character so well, it was really jarring to see him behave so differently in that later movie.  Not saying it couldn't have been done believably, but the writer(s) just didn't lay the groundwork for it.

I think Magneto was aware that the plan is risky. He MIGHT underestimated the risk, but maybe he would try regardless. And his plan certainly included Rogue dying.

Now, sure, there is still big difference to the second movie (unless he assumed the plan to kill everyone WOULD be stopped) but he might've feel like running out of options. And yes, it WOULD be better if they spend few minutes on Magneto not liking those options, but they probably didn't though audience would care ... lot of interesting stuff gets cut out from movies ...

1 hour ago, CritterKeeper said:
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I've already expressed, I don't think Arthur's comment makes sense. I like Arthur, I think he means well, and is very competent, but there's a horizon to his thinking that he seems to not do well looking beyond. He's not the guy that's going to cut a mutually beneficial deal with Magus. He's too full of his own trivial sense of how things ought to be.

I don't think we can go that far; more like, he might draw the line for a "mutually beneficial deal" in a different spot than Edward would have, or Magus would have preferred.

I suspect Edward would totally help Magus for free.

1 hour ago, CritterKeeper said:

I'm curious how he'll react when he learns that Tedd isn't always a "she".

How he reacted, probably.

Yes, this would be very interesting. I hope we will see it in flashback and it wouldn't be completely forgotten.

However, I'm not sure how that's related to Magus.

1 hour ago, CritterKeeper said:
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The comics says two years ago, presumably relative to this comics, so, like, about 33 months?

And so far we didn't saw any example of time passing differently in different worlds.

 Terra....might be traumatized, and that's even if she has abilities to determine that he wasn't killed but just moved.

33 months however don't seem like fatal age difference.

I just recently fnished reading the book The Dead Zone, in which the protagonist is in a coma for four and a half years.  It was written in the late 70s, so you can imagine the kinds of changes he had to adjust to.  There's also Spider Robinson's short story "The Time Traveler" (one of the early Callahan's Place stories), where a man was in prison in a third world country for several years.  The world he came back to was so strange to him he was almost ready to commit suicide.  Things change a lot more quickly than we realize, because we're living through it one day at a time.

Thinks are changing faster than in any previous age, but it's still not that common for changes which would immediately affect whole world to happen.

Also, thinks are changing so fast due to technology ; it's possible that on Magus's world, everything is more stable.

1 hour ago, CritterKeeper said:

As to whether Terra knew what happened, that is a very good question, one I hope we eventually learn the answer to.  It would be interesting if she showed up to save the day.  Lots of possibilities there!  Hmm, perhaps involving her squeezing through a small portal that Magus can't fit through because he chose the larger masculine frame?  ;-)

It would be funny but extremely unlikely (also, it wouldn't really help - then we would have TWO people who needs to get back). The differences between how big hole male and female needs to get through is not that big.

Also, instead of her appearing unannounced, I think we may see her and Tedd working together each from one side to open the portal.

Of course, if this wouldn't be solved in Lord Tedd storyline. I mean, Nioi might be able to open the portal without big effort.

 

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3 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

I'm pretty sure Magneto equated the non-Mutants who persecuted Mutants to the Nazis who persecuted Jews (and a boatload of other groups).  How much empathy do you expect a Jew to have for Nazis, especially while the Holocaust is still going on?

The Nazis wanted to, and still want to, exterminate my entire family for the crime of being born. They successfully murdered more than a dozen family members of my paternal grandfather's side of the family. They very nearly killed him, my grandmother, my father and my uncle, too. They escaped to Sweden in a leaky rowboat a bare hair's breadth ahead of Nazi pursuit, surviving only because an incredibly courageous German diplomat used his connections to warn the Danish Jews of what was coming. My grandmother's cousin who lived in the Netherlands was less fortunate. She suicided by leaping out of a window when the Gestapo came for her.

They want to murder my wife, too. Not because she is Jewish, mind you. She isn't, she's from an Irish-Catholic family. She just happens to be disabled, born a casualty of war from Agent Orange poisoning her father suffered in Vietnam. This makes her, the Nazis say, an unwanted burden on society and a potential pollutant of the strain of the Master Race.

Their program of eugenics through mass murder is not limited to the Jews and the disabled, of course. They also want to extend their genocide to all queer people, all 'racially impure' people (a wonderfully flexible term that can, was and will be extended to enfold still more populations as the Nazis move along), all mentally ill people and anyone else that deviate from their arbitrary and ever-mutating standard for racial and political purity. (Fun fact. The Nazis weren't sure if the Romani fit their criteria for not being 'racially pure.' They then decided to exterminate them anyway 'just in case they didn't.')

My sympathy for Nazis is, shall we say, highly limited. I think fondly back to the days where the traditional greeting for Nazis included employing a Garand M-1 and thirty-ought-sixes. I am hoping that these days will return before the Nazis gain even more power.

In brief, I feel that the problem with Individual One's dictum of there being fine people among Nazis is that the rest of the Nazis are still alive.

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3 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Considering Not Tengu can fly, if he fall from cliff and no body was found I don't think they would assume he died.

If they didn't see him fly away, then they can't be certain he did fly away, maybe Noriko watched him hit the water, there could be a number of things Not_Tengu could have done to make people question whether he was alive or not.

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1 minute ago, Scotty said:
4 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Considering Not Tengu can fly, if he fall from cliff and no body was found I don't think they would assume he died.

If they didn't see him fly away, then they can't be certain he did fly away, maybe Noriko watched him hit the water, there could be a number of things Not_Tengu could have done to make people question whether he was alive or not.

Maybe ; I just wanted to note that him flying makes difference.

There would be other things which can happen where he could survive but wouldn't be expected to, and the fall to water is little cliche in my opinion. For example, something could fall ON him.

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Just now, hkmaly said:

There would be other things which can happen where he could survive but wouldn't be expected to, and the fall to water is little cliche in my opinion. For example, something could fall ON him.

The thing about something falling on him, is a body should be easier to find once you removed the debris, while a strong current would carry the body away from the site of the battle.

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9 minutes ago, Scotty said:
15 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

There would be other things which can happen where he could survive but wouldn't be expected to, and the fall to water is little cliche in my opinion. For example, something could fall ON him.

The thing about something falling on him, is a body should be easier to find once you removed the debris, while a strong current would carry the body away from the site of the battle.

With enough debris, it may be impractical to remove ... or hard to determine how many deaths are under it, not speaking about who. And if the debris was not watched all the time ...

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Just now, hkmaly said:

With enough debris, it may be impractical to remove ... or hard to determine how many deaths are under it, not speaking about who. And if the debris was not watched all the time ...

if the fight was in an urban setting, then any debris is likely going to be removed, especially if there's the potential for other victims being caught in it and based on the fact that Wolf and Cranium knew about the scar, it would seem that Noriko or someone working with her at the time kept track of the injuries she inflicted on him, so when they'd be clearing the debris they could keep an eye out for a body with those injuries, and yes it's likely that more injuries including the fatal one would be added to the body by the debris, but then the job of a mortician would be to determine what injuries were caused by Noriko, and what were caused by falling debris.

If the fight happened in a cave and the cave collapsed....maybe they wouldn't bother. There might be a search of the area to see if there were other exits though and if so, then they might want to double check the collapse area to determine if it was possible for him to get caught under it.

Actually great example, well movie example, of people not checking for whether a villain is alive or dead, the original Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie, at the end The Shredder falls into a garbage truck at which point Casey Jones causes the jaws to close up and we see the helmet getting crunched in them, but no one was like "hey we should retrieve the body rather than let the city take the truck and dump it's contents in the landfill". Of course, then we wouldn't likely have had the sequel.

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5 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

Someone robbing a bank may intend to only use the gun to intimidate people, and plan on their accomplices doing the same, but sometimes things don't go as planned, sometimes people get shot during robberies, and the robbers don't get any slack just because they didn't plan on killing anyone.  Magus is the one who instigated the whole plot; Sirleck was recruited by him and was nominally under his command.  Any harm that came because of Sirleck, Magus would be legally culpable as much as Sirleck, if not moreso. True, but how is it relevant? Magus's plan, questionable as it was, worked.

After the first movie established his character so well, it was really jarring to see him behave so differently in that later movie. This is why we get things like "Skip the odd numbered movies".

There is a difference between bringing facts to POTUS's attention when they become relevant, and piling on an overwhelming number of facts about all branches of their duties the minute they take office.  It would be quite reasonable to not bother the President with, say, the strategic value of a particular town in the border, until it becomes relevant, say by an enemy moving their troop exercises close to that town.  A good leader can't do or know everything themself, they have to rely on good subordinates to bring them the relevant facts as they become relevant. All true, but not germane to the discussion you are quoting. That had to do with whether the president was privy to the information, not when.

We have no idea of the circumstances of the battle between Noriko and Not-Tengu.  She could have been trying to kill him outright, she could have been trying to subdue him or disable him and take him in, she could have been defending innocent civilians and only injured him to the extent necessary to drive him away.  We do know that Wolf refers to "the last time someone took this guy down," not to someone trying to kill him specifically. We have two hints, "He may be dead" seems to say someone tried to make him so, and the scar would bear that our, but you're right, we don't really know.

How much empathy do you expect a Jew to have for Nazis, especially while the Holocaust is still going on? What you are saying is, once you get into this conundrum, neither side can back down. Unfortunately, I quite agree.

Yup, all sorts of reasons exist for a wrongful conviction to occur.  Every one of them is a reason not to take an irrevocable step like execution. You are certainly not in the minority with that point of view.

And of course, that august body *never* lets politics come into their decisions, never votes along party lines...oh, wait.... It should be obvious, then, how depending on a jury for Supreme Court level decisions would be even worse.

I agree that Arthur was only deciding whether to continue pursuing Magus, rather like the Distirct Attourney deciding whose case gets prosecuted, or the Police Chief deciding which criminals to devote which resources to finding. Well said.

I don't think we can go that far; more like, he might draw the line for a "mutually beneficial deal" in a different spot than Edward would have, or Magus would have preferred.  I'm curious how he'll react when he learns that Tedd isn't always a "she". I'm not encouraged when the overriding concern is "Made a young woman cry." Of course it's wrong, but Arthur is on "straining our gnats and swallowing camels" ground here.

I think it was more the pleasurable experience of eating, of the textures and smells and flavors of food, and the pleasure of being able to satisfy a basic biological need, not actual physical hunger.  And yes, calories being burned to fuel magic may be a factor in how much food he got, but so might wanting to try several different toppings and combinations.  Here's hoping his hotel room has a little fridge for storing leftovers! You've got to wonder, why pizza? Do they have pizza on his world that he's familiar with it? Or was he curious after observing Elliot's group order it?

Definitely a case I can see where need-to-know is taken seriously.  If POTUS needs to know, they'll be told, but if the lower authorities can handle things, why tell someone who might Tweet it to the whole world? The current situation is indeed unprecedented.

I just recently fnished reading the book The Dead Zone, in which the protagonist is in a coma for four and a half years.  It was written in the late 70s, so you can imagine the kinds of changes he had to adjust to.  There's also Spider Robinson's short story "The Time Traveler" (one of the early Callahan's Place stories), where a man was in prison in a third world country for several years.  The world he came back to was so strange to him he was almost ready to commit suicide.  Things change a lot more quickly than we realize, because we're living through it one day at a time. I think also, the rate of cultural change is increasing. The internet is accelerating change.

As to whether Terra knew what happened, that is a very good question, one I hope we eventually learn the answer to.  It would be interesting if she showed up to save the day.  Lots of possibilities there!  Hmm, perhaps involving her squeezing through a small portal that Magus can't fit through because he chose the larger masculine frame?  ;-) I like that last bit.

 

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15 minutes ago, Darth Fluffy said:

I think it was more the pleasurable experience of eating, of the textures and smells and flavors of food, and the pleasure of being able to satisfy a basic biological need, not actual physical hunger.  And yes, calories being burned to fuel magic may be a factor in how much food he got, but so might wanting to try several different toppings and combinations.  Here's hoping his hotel room has a little fridge for storing leftovers! You've got to wonder, why pizza? Do they have pizza on his world that he's familiar with it? Or was he curious after observing Elliot's group order it?

What other kind of food can you order to hidden location?

Note that the room he was in was hidden by his magic. He might consider going to restaurant or fast food too dangerous.

Pizza is not only available as something you can order to be brought to you, it's FAMOUS for it. Even if there are other kinds of food you can order, Magus might not be aware about it.

15 minutes ago, Darth Fluffy said:

Definitely a case I can see where need-to-know is taken seriously.  If POTUS needs to know, they'll be told, but if the lower authorities can handle things, why tell someone who might Tweet it to the whole world? The current situation is indeed unprecedented.

Hillary "the private mailserver" Clinton might not be the correct person to told either. Granted, she wasn't president yet.

Then we have Geoge W. "Iraq has weapons of mass destruction" Bush ... Bill ""I have never had sexual relations with Monica Lewinsky." Clinton ...

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50 minutes ago, Darth Fluffy said:

What you are saying is, once you get into this conundrum, neither side can back down. Unfortunately, I quite agree.

No, she is not saying that. Being a Nazi is a political decision. It is possible to back away from that. A number of brave and honest people did, once it dawned on them precisely what it was they had endorsed. A rather larger number of less brave people did not do so out of fear from retribution, and carried on obeying orders to preserve their own lives. I do not hate them for that and most of them paid a terrible price for their devil's bargain once the war was over. Admittedly I cannot forgive them for it, either.

But today is different. The Nazis have power, but they do not have full control yet. It is still possible to reject the lies they attempt to feed you with without necessarily taking your life into your hands. All that is necessary is to say "I do not wish to kill people for an accident of birth" and hold to that decision, and you have taken the first steps in freeing yourself from one of the most pernicious and destructive ideologies our world has ever seen.

I, on the other hand, cannot back away from having been born. Nor can my ageing father, who already survived one such mortal conflict when he was a child and who has done NOTHING to deserve to see this unutterably vile ideology of hatred rear its head again. My wife cannot back away from the Agent Orange that deformed her spine and made it impossible for her to ever walk and run like so many other humans do and take for granted. Nor can LGBTQI* people back away from their nature, no matter what ignorant and hateful homophobes claim. Nor any of the other people on the list I mentioned above. Well, granted, the political enemies of the Nazis could hypothetically just admit that they were wrong and join into the mass murder, hoping that the monster they surrendered to wouldn't turn on them in the end and consume them. But that is only a problem if you for some reason hold the stance that life, liberty and pursuit of happiness are of any importance at all to everyday life.

There is no equivalency here whatsoever. The Nazis possess power and are organising themselves for mass murder once more. They have made a choice, and that choice is that they are superior beings that have the right to exterminate anyone they judge inferior. In short, they have issued themselves a carte blanche to persecute, rob, steal and murder without limit. They have rejected civilised behavior altogether. While it is possible to be tricked into holding this stance, taking it is nonetheless a decision, and one that can be reversed. The Nazis have made their own bed and they deserve whatever consequences will come to them for doing so.

Of course, if you are not in their direct path it is obviously possible to nobly elevate yourself above all this rude and primitive conflict. Sit on a self-declared position of moral superiority and sigh sadly at the corpses of the victims of the Nazis and tell them, "You really should have backed down." After all, it is not your death the Nazis are calling for, it is not you whom they are smearing with lies, accusing of crimes or attempting to destroy. There is such nobility in stoically enduring wrongs not done to you, after all!

And after that all you need to do is to hope that the insatiable hunger of the monster will not lead it to turn on you once it has consumed all its other victims.

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5 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

They want to murder my wife, too. Not because she is Jewish, mind you. She isn't, she's from an Irish-Catholic family. She just happens to be disabled, born a casualty of war from Agent Orange poisoning her father suffered in Vietnam. This makes her, the Nazis say, an unwanted burden on society and a potential pollutant of the strain of the Master Race.

Their program of eugenics through mass murder is not limited to the Jews and the disabled, of course. They also want to extend their genocide to all queer people, all 'racially impure' people (a wonderfully flexible term that can, was and will be extended to enfold still more populations as the Nazis move along), all mentally ill people and anyone else that deviate from their arbitrary and ever-mutating standard for racial and political purity. (Fun fact. The Nazis weren't sure if the Romani fit their criteria for not being 'racially pure.' They then decided to exterminate them anyway 'just in case they didn't.')

People of similar "ethnic purity" mindset would probably consider me to be born as an abomination, since my blond-haired-blue-eyed father committed what would have been felony miscegenation just ten years earlier in many US states, by marrying my mother. No, my mother was not African-descended, but she was of an ethnicity that had been discriminated against previously.

On Magneto wanting to change all non-Mutants into Mutants, such a plan might even have gained him much support among the non-Mutant-hating population, many of whom would welcome the opportunity to gain Mutant abilities (at least for mutations that did not grant an inhuman physical appearance).

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