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Tom Sewell

Story Monday, July 22, 2019

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10 hours ago, Scotty said:

Arthur was worried about the safety of the staff working there yes, that also translates into worrying about the safety of his agents, he wasn't willing to just rush in to an unknown situation, his worst case scenario was that the facility would be a smoking crater after all, also there are apparently other facilities that housed potentially magic artifacts, and Arthur was cursing the fact that the organization was so compartmentalized that it'd be difficult to warn everyone. so it's not like Arthur was just sitting around doing nothing until the alarm went off, he had soo much he was trying to do, and since he didn't know that anyone would be making a run for the Diamond, of course he didn't have that facility as a priority.

Good points.

Compartmentalized, report it up the chain. Someone has oversight, disseminates the warnings. The organization heads notify their alert chains. IRL, you get graded on doing that fast.

Allies are an additional layer of complexity, but there are protocols in place for that, you follow them. Hell, if you need to, there's protocols for giving enemy states a heads up. Even people you don't have a diplomatic relationship with; you have a third party pre-selected.

If you expect it might become a crater, you place observers, or at least fly a drone nearby.

Since those were junk artifacts, you're right , it probably was a low priority facility.

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3 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

Good points.

Compartmentalized, report it up the chain. Someone has oversight, disseminates the warnings. The organization heads notify their alert chains. IRL, you get graded on doing that fast.

Allies are an additional layer of complexity, but there are protocols in place for that, you follow them. Hell, if you need to, there's protocols for giving enemy states a heads up. Even people you don't have a diplomatic relationship with; you have a third party pre-selected.

If you expect it might become a crater, you place observers, or at least fly a drone nearby.

Since those were junk artifacts, you're right , it probably was a low priority facility.

The fact there's a chain that Arthur's warnings would have to go through, means that at some point along that chain, someone might be like "Oh they're just overreacting", Allies might even think the same. Non allies though? they might think you feeding them false information or trick them into revealing something, they might not respond favourably.

I gotta wonder how Assistant Director Leifeld reacted when Arthur told him that instead of magic changing, it got all restrictions removed and all old systems reactivated.

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3 hours ago, Scotty said:

The fact there's a chain that Arthur's warnings would have to go through, means that at some point along that chain, someone might be like "Oh they're just overreacting", ...

Mostly, not gonna happen, you're talking career suicide, although, we owe our present existence to a few instances of individuals not following their protocol and exercising a healthy level of skepticism at automated warning calling for them to launch during the cold war. Contrary to human nature, these people weren't punished for being sensible.

 

3 hours ago, Scotty said:

... Allies might even think the same.

Allies tend to fact check, yes. Wonder why they feel that need?

 

3 hours ago, Scotty said:

Non allies though? they might think you feeding them false information or trick them into revealing something, they might not respond favourably.

Of course, they will be predisposed toward disbelief; they will have a delayed reaction as they investigate, but with sufficient mutual interest, they can be persuaded. Recall, in WWII, the Soviet Union sided with Germany initially.

 

 

3 hours ago, Scotty said:

I gotta wonder how Assistant Director Leifeld reacted when Arthur told him that instead of magic changing, it got all restrictions removed and all old systems reactivated.

There is that; credibility up the chain is a factor.

 

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5 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

Mostly, not gonna happen, you're talking career suicide, although, we owe our present existence to a few instances of individuals not following their protocol and exercising a healthy level of skepticism at automated warning calling for them to launch during the cold war. Contrary to human nature, these people weren't punished for being sensible.

Yeah, we got 1 person who risked their carreer on a gut instinct that what they were being told wasn't real. How much of an impact would that have on everyone else? They'd probably be more cautious about warnings such as Arthur's and want more info before they jumped to any concluseions, they might beef up security at other locations, but without knowing what the dangers were, it'd be possible they'd sent people to their deaths.

5 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

Of course, they will be predisposed toward disbelief; they will have a delayed reaction as they investigate, but with sufficient mutual interest, they can be persuaded. Recall, in WWII, the Soviet Union sided with Germany initially.

It was a non aggression pact which Germany broke, not a good example of "hey! lets trust that what these people are saying is true!!"

 

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On 7/23/2019 at 3:45 PM, Scotty said:
On 7/23/2019 at 3:19 PM, Darth Fluffy said:

It is interesting that he contrasts "lying dormant in stone" with "living". That implies he cannot self-launch out of stone, he has to preset the parameters of his own release. Which makes me wonder, what are the circumstances that would release him to atone. Since he's fixated on the dewitchery diamond, it would probably still be part of the formula.

His encounter with Nanase forced him to think about his oath and what he was about to do, so it would be assumed that the next time the diamond was used, instead of seeking to destroy what was created, Abraham would try to determine if the creation was any threat first and then figure out whether he needs to intervene or not.

So Magus making Elliot touch the diamond again would likely have triggered Abraham's released, the diamond's destruction would mean that Abraham would never need to go back to stone, and Magus isn't really a threat to anyone, he doesn't have any desire to stay in this universe and just wants to get home, Arthur though, based on last appearance, probably wants to make sure Magus apologizes to Ashley, as Sybil pointed out, it could be argued that Magus was also a victim in all of that, so I don't see Arthur wanting to imprison Magus. Ellen and Magus probably don't see it that way though which is why Magus ran when the paranormal division started showing up.

Even if Abraham would be able to change the parameters of spell turning him into stone, he wouldn't try to rely on spell judging why the diamond was used ; so yes, I agree that despite the change of text, he would STILL be awakened when the diamond was activated, he just wouldn't be so quick to try to kill Magus.

On the other hand, situation with Magus is clearly more dangerous than with Elliot and Ellen, and he MAY take more time before agreeing there is no need to fight Magus.

And, yes, even if he wouldn't, Magus have no way to know that, and also no reason to believe DGB either ; going into hiding makes more sense for him than letting himself be captured by agency with unknown (by him) goals.

On 7/25/2019 at 2:25 PM, Scotty said:
On 7/24/2019 at 2:55 PM, Darth Fluffy said:

Still a ticking time bomb with the increased ambient magic, or did he not have a reason to evacuate the facility?

Arthur was worried about the safety of the staff working there yes, that also translates into worrying about the safety of his agents, he wasn't willing to just rush in to an unknown situation, his worst case scenario was that the facility would be a smoking crater after all, also there are apparently other facilities that housed potentially magic artifacts, and Arthur was cursing the fact that the organization was so compartmentalized that it'd be difficult to warn everyone. so it's not like Arthur was just sitting around doing nothing until the alarm went off, he had soo much he was trying to do, and since he didn't know that anyone would be making a run for the Diamond, of course he didn't have that facility as a priority.

Yes ; I think rushing in would be bad idea and if not for Magus, they would likely wait hours if not days before entering the facility - and by "wait" I mean preparing team and solving other facilities.

On 7/24/2019 at 6:56 AM, Darth Fluffy said:

It is not clear what Arthur's authority is in this. Presumably he's bound by some semblance of law, if not law, oversight, as Edward was. "Made a young woman cry", while unpleasant, does not sound like a prosecutable criminal offense. I could see an extralegal, "We need to incarcerate Magus and study him because he's from another universe", but I think they're past that kind of thinking. Also, his supervisor is already sensitized from Edward's overreaction to his subordinates reacting too emotionally to circumstances of their duties. It seems like Arthur is allowing his own emotions to carry him into similar ground. It seems the most that Arthur could do is give Magus a stern talking to; and even that would be a waste. Magus seems to be aware of the choices he's made and the consequences, a lecture from Arthur would add little.

There are probably laws regarding specifically strong magic users with unknown goals ; Arthur might not have any ground for actually prosecuting Magus, but finding him and making sure he understands magic community laws and the need to keep magic secret is likely something he's SUPPOSED to do. Sure, WE can reasonably assume Magus already knows all that, but Arthur doesn't.

Hmmm ... actually, Magus entering government facility MIGHT be some grounds for prosecuting, although probably resolvable by fine.

On 7/26/2019 at 9:02 AM, Darth Fluffy said:
On 7/26/2019 at 4:55 AM, Scotty said:

Non allies though? they might think you feeding them false information or trick them into revealing something, they might not respond favourably.

Of course, they will be predisposed toward disbelief; they will have a delayed reaction as they investigate, but with sufficient mutual interest, they can be persuaded.

They might be predisposed toward disbelief, however they would immediately ask themselves "if this is misinformation, what exactly they want us to do? Or not do?"

In situation like this, they might decide to raise the security of facilities and investigate just because they might assume that they've got deliberately unbelievable story just to make them NOT investigate.

On 7/26/2019 at 9:02 AM, Darth Fluffy said:
On 7/26/2019 at 4:55 AM, Scotty said:

I gotta wonder how Assistant Director Leifeld reacted when Arthur told him that instead of magic changing, it got all restrictions removed and all old systems reactivated.

There is that; credibility up the chain is a factor.

I would expect Assistant Director Leifeld knows and accepts that the theory about magic changing wasn't that much reliable to begin with. Also, I think he would agree with Arthur's opinion that the way the magic change works it would be even worse.

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Don't forget that Magus is undoubtedly guilty of kidnapping and accessory to kidnapping.  It wouldn't surprise me if putting a spell on someone against their will counts as some sort of assault, too.  Trespassing on a government facility, destruction of property, heck, grand theft auto -- they can find things to charge him with if they choose.  (I almost added driving without a license but I think Sirleck did all the driving.)  Of course, they may do so more as a means of leverage than with the intention of actually sending him to prison or whatever other punishment they have for magic users.

Arthur didn't hear the parts of the story that were explained in the car, he only saw for himself what was caught on camera.  The "much recapping" from Ellen, Elliot and Ashley may not have been complete, so he may not appreciate just how desperate a situation Magus was in.  And he may be the sort of person who would believe that *nothing* justifies what Magus and Sirleck did, that Magus must pay the consequences of what he did.

(As an aside, it occurs to me that Arthur may have a more positive view of Elliot and his parents than he might otherwise, because they clearly share his philosophy of supporting life he's unintentionally created.)

Besides, what choice do they have but to try to find Magus?  He's shown himself willing to break the law in this universe (and he likely doesn't even know what all the laws are yet), he's a powerful magic user, and he has the potential to cause a heck of a lot of trouble, whether he means to or not.  If he's stuck here, it's in their best interests to find him and try to get him working for, or at least with, the DGB.  They might be able to guilt-trip him into helping if they can figure out something related to the consequences of his actions that they can draft him into to start.  Or, they might be able to put some sort of restriction or restraint on his use of magic -- whatever it is they plan to use on not-Tengu to keep him under wraps and out of trouble, for example.

What sort of justice system could you have for magic users in this universe, anyway?  Are all cases bench trials, decided by a judge?  Are there enough people in the know to supply a reasonable jury pool?  Do they have magic-resistant prisons, or are all punishments of the community service variety?  Can you use magic on a prisoner during interrogation?  If there's a Calm spell and Sleep spells, what about Anxiety or Agitation spells?  Truth spells? 

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Truth spells theoretically come under two types--"Detect Truth" and "Compel Truth". In the former, the spell allows one to determine when someone is lying, while in the latter, the spell forces the person to be incapable of knowingly saying anything false (like in the Jim Carrey movie "Liar Liar"). The former might be allowable in a court, but the latter would be prohibited by the legal restraint against compelling people to testify against themselves which exists in many countries (as under the Fifth Amendment to the US Constitution).

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7 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

Don't forget that Magus is undoubtedly guilty of kidnapping and accessory to kidnapping.  It wouldn't surprise me if putting a spell on someone against their will counts as some sort of assault, too.  Trespassing on a government facility, destruction of property, heck, grand theft auto -- they can find things to charge him with if they choose.  (I almost added driving without a license but I think Sirleck did all the driving.)  Of course, they may do so more as a means of leverage than with the intention of actually sending him to prison or whatever other punishment they have for magic users.

Good points, he actually did violate quite a bit of law.

I am curious what specific "destruction of property" you had in mind; the diamond? I don't think the golem would count.

 

7 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

Arthur didn't hear the parts of the story that were explained in the car, he only saw for himself what was caught on camera.  The "much recapping" from Ellen, Elliot and Ashley may not have been complete, so he may not appreciate just how desperate a situation Magus was in.  And he may be the sort of person who would believe that *nothing* justifies what Magus and Sirleck did, that Magus must pay the consequences of what he did.

I think they would have had to explain his motivation as best they understood it, plus Sybil's remark says she and Arthur were aware.

 

7 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

Besides, what choice do they have but to try to find Magus?  He's shown himself willing to break the law in this universe (and he likely doesn't even know what all the laws are yet), he's a powerful magic user, and he has the potential to cause a heck of a lot of trouble, whether he means to or not.  If he's stuck here, it's in their best interests to find him and try to get him working for, or at least with, the DGB.  They might be able to guilt-trip him into helping if they can figure out something related to the consequences of his actions that they can draft him into to start.  Or, they might be able to put some sort of restriction or restraint on his use of magic -- whatever it is they plan to use on not-Tengu to keep him under wraps and out of trouble, for example.

The most expedient way to deal with Magus is to get rid of him by returning him to his universe, assuming that's possible. If he is held and believes he is being treated unreasonably, he seems capable of becoming a significant threat. He's a liability here and an asset there, holding him accomplishes nothing. Some sort of service requirement while they are looking for the means to send him might suit all parties.

 

7 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

What sort of justice system could you have for magic users in this universe, anyway?  Are all cases bench trials, decided by a judge?  Are there enough people in the know to supply a reasonable jury pool?  Do they have magic-resistant prisons, or are all punishments of the community service variety?  Can you use magic on a prisoner during interrogation?  If there's a Calm spell and Sleep spells, what about Anxiety or Agitation spells?  Truth spells? 

 

I would expect extra-judicial judgement such as used with terrorists. Magical considerations, such as keeping it secret and threat level would override normal procedures. Would you think the aberrations would get a trial? Not-Tengu? (I frankly think he's too dangerous to hold. Tedd's mom apparently agrees.) To hold a not-Tengu or Magus, they would need a magic-resistant prison that also inhibit spell casting. Community service could only apply to people you did not think were an immediate threat, and you'd tend to err on the side of safety, I think.

I think use of magic would be a given. At some level, it is necessary just for apprehension and confinement, so leaking into other aspects of justice would at least gradually happen. Who's going to object, since they don't know it exists? I think due to expediency within the magical subculture, it would just happen.

 

17 minutes ago, ijuin said:

Truth spells theoretically come under two types--"Detect Truth" and "Compel Truth". In the former, the spell allows one to determine when someone is lying, while in the latter, the spell forces the person to be incapable of knowingly saying anything false (like in the Jim Carrey movie "Liar Liar"). The former might be allowable in a court, but the latter would be prohibited by the legal restraint against compelling people to testify against themselves which exists in many countries (as under the Fifth Amendment to the US Constitution).

I doubt those rules would apply. You can see that in our world, in espionage, counter-terrorism, police dealing with active threats (not to mention the whole cops abusing their authority that Liz brought up).

 

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12 hours ago, ijuin said:

Truth spells theoretically come under two types--"Detect Truth" and "Compel Truth". In the former, the spell allows one to determine when someone is lying, while in the latter, the spell forces the person to be incapable of knowingly saying anything false (like in the Jim Carrey movie "Liar Liar"). The former might be allowable in a court, but the latter would be prohibited by the legal restraint against compelling people to testify against themselves which exists in many countries (as under the Fifth Amendment to the US Constitution).

To use a truth-detection spell in court, you would have to present some pretty strong evidence that a) it's reliable, and can't be fooled by self-deception, counter-spells, or magically altering someone's memory, for example, and b )  everyone present has some way of distinguishing, with absolute certainty, between an actual functioning truth spell and an illusion which would immitate the effects of one.  Likewise, a truth compelling spell, if allowed, would have to be distinguishable from the caster taking control of the subject and making them say what they want them to say.

11 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

Good points, he actually did violate quite a bit of law.

I am curious what specific "destruction of property" you had in mind; the diamond? I don't think the golem would count.

The Diamond springs to mind.  Athe golem would fall under self-defense and defense of others.

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I think they would have had to explain his motivation as best they understood it, plus Sybil's remark says she and Arthur were aware.

Aware of a second or third-hand account of his story may not have the same impact as witnessing and/or talking with him directly.

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Some sort of service requirement while they are looking for the means to send him might suit all parties.

I agree.  If Magus has even half the desire to help and protect people that Elliot has, he would probably be much happier having something positive to do while waiting to find a way back home.  This is a guy who was training to combat dragons to protect cities!  He does seem to mistrust the authorities here, though, so he might not accept their word that any given task was for the greater good.

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I would expect extra-judicial judgement such as used with terrorists. Magical considerations, such as keeping it secret and threat level would override normal procedures. Would you think the aberrations would get a trial? Not-Tengu? (I frankly think he's too dangerous to hold. Tedd's mom apparently agrees.) To hold a not-Tengu or Magus, they would need a magic-resistant prison that also inhibit spell casting. Community service could only apply to people you did not think were an immediate threat, and you'd tend to err on the side of safety, I think.

You're pretty qick to assume that everyone will just throw out the Constitution at the drop of a hat.  I would expect there to be *some* sort of system in place, as close to normal as they can get.  As I said, bench trials or a jury of their magic-using peers might work.  Even for the 9/11 terrorists and Guantanamo detainees, much of the debate has been about whether they should be tried in military or civillian court, not whether they get a trial at all.  So yes, if they have successfully taken Not-Tengu into custody, I expect him to receive a trial of some sort.  This is, after all, EGS, where Ellen wasn't taken to a lab for study, but sent home to her family with enough prize money to pay for her upkeep, and where Grace's siblings have been taken in and taught how to use their abilities safely and eventually reintegrate into society.

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I think use of magic would be a given. At some level, it is necessary just for apprehension and confinement, so leaking into other aspects of justice would at least gradually happen. Who's going to object, since they don't know it exists? I think due to expediency within the magical subculture, it would just happen.

Expediency is a very dangerous excuse to bypass due process and constitutional protections.  Who is going to object?  Good people involved in the process who want to see it done right, same as always!  I can definitely see there being a small number of lawyers aware of the reality of magic who are called upon to make sure the process is followed as much as possible, and that any deviations are fair ones.

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I doubt those rules would apply. You can see that in our world, in espionage, counter-terrorism, police dealing with active threats (not to mention the whole cops abusing their authority that Liz brought up).

Again, you see a much darker view of the world than EGS has generally proven to be.  Yes, with an actual active threat, force may be required, but when Mr. Verres went beyond the rules and attacked with greater force than was called for, he was disciplined for it.  There is clearly a system, and good people who work hard to uphold it and weed out the bad apples who would abuse it.

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15 hours ago, ijuin said:

Truth spells theoretically come under two types--"Detect Truth" and "Compel Truth". In the former, the spell allows one to determine when someone is lying, while in the latter, the spell forces the person to be incapable of knowingly saying anything false (like in the Jim Carrey movie "Liar Liar"). The former might be allowable in a court, but the latter would be prohibited by the legal restraint against compelling people to testify against themselves which exists in many countries (as under the Fifth Amendment to the US Constitution).

Three types. Detect lies, forbid lies, and compel truth.

What's the difference between the last two? "I decline to answer that question."

Compel truth would DEFINITELY not be accepted in the US court system...

Forbid lies, though... considering that you can get sent to prison just for lying under oath, without regard to what you're lying about, I don't see a huge conceptual problem with that. (The practical problem of confirming that Forbid Lies is actually the spell, and the only relevant spell, applied, remains.)

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On 7/30/2019 at 3:01 AM, CritterKeeper said:

Don't forget that Magus is undoubtedly guilty of kidnapping and accessory to kidnapping.  It wouldn't surprise me if putting a spell on someone against their will counts as some sort of assault, too.  Trespassing on a government facility, destruction of property, heck, grand theft auto -- they can find things to charge him with if they choose.  (I almost added driving without a license but I think Sirleck did all the driving.)

Magus might also argue that it was Sirleck doing that grand theft auto. But yes, the kidnapping and casting on Ashley, definitely.

5 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:
Quote

I would expect extra-judicial judgement such as used with terrorists. Magical considerations, such as keeping it secret and threat level would override normal procedures. Would you think the aberrations would get a trial? Not-Tengu? (I frankly think he's too dangerous to hold. Tedd's mom apparently agrees.) To hold a not-Tengu or Magus, they would need a magic-resistant prison that also inhibit spell casting. Community service could only apply to people you did not think were an immediate threat, and you'd tend to err on the side of safety, I think.

You're pretty qick to assume that everyone will just throw out the Constitution at the drop of a hat.  I would expect there to be *some* sort of system in place, as close to normal as they can get.  As I said, bench trials or a jury of their magic-using peers might work.  Even for the 9/11 terrorists and Guantanamo detainees, much of the debate has been about whether they should be tried in military or civillian court, not whether they get a trial at all.  So yes, if they have successfully taken Not-Tengu into custody, I expect him to receive a trial of some sort.  This is, after all, EGS, where Ellen wasn't taken to a lab for study, but sent home to her family with enough prize money to pay for her upkeep, and where Grace's siblings have been taken in and taught how to use their abilities safely and eventually reintegrate into society.

There would have some trials but not necessary using same rules than civilian courts.

On 7/30/2019 at 3:01 AM, CritterKeeper said:

Besides, what choice do they have but to try to find Magus?  He's shown himself willing to break the law in this universe (and he likely doesn't even know what all the laws are yet), he's a powerful magic user, and he has the potential to cause a heck of a lot of trouble, whether he means to or not.  If he's stuck here, it's in their best interests to find him and try to get him working for, or at least with, the DGB.

Or at least explain him what laws he's supposed to uphold, as I already mentioned.

 

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5 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

You're pretty qick to assume that everyone will just throw out the Constitution at the drop of a hat. I would expect there to be *some* sort of system in place, as close to normal as they can get.

There are continual challenges to the US Constitution as there are to any other, that's why we have a Supreme Court to defend it. Our own history has a major war over the interpretation of that Constitution that almost tore our nation apart. You will never run out of gray areas to define; as you define them, you create new boundary issues. Many practices of our government have always been controversial; not the same ones all the time, but there are always  those controversies and issues.

 

5 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

Even for the 9/11 terrorists and Guantanamo detainees, much of the debate has been about whether they should be tried in military or civillian court, not whether they get a trial at all.

I remember seeing a video of a famous trial lawyer (long time ago, I think it was F. Lee Bailey) discussing the UCMJ, and how much fairer it was than the civilian trial system.

What was particularly unfair about Gitmo, was people being held without charges nor hope of trials. There's still a few.

 

5 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

So yes, if they have successfully taken Not-Tengu into custody, I expect him to receive a trial of some sort.

We are talking about a universe in which super power exists. What if they know they cannot contain him when he regains his power. Does he still get a trial? Do aberrations get a trial? If not, why not? Who decided? Who gets to say they're not human any more.

You know that someone d@#% well should.

 

5 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

 This is, after all, EGS, where Ellen wasn't taken to a lab for study, ...

I know, right? They totally messed up discovering the splanch.

 

5 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

Expediency is a very dangerous excuse to bypass due process and constitutional protections.

I agree, it is. But is is also absolutely necessary. When you have active shooters in a school, the Constitutional rights of the shooters go out the window until they surrender and lay their weapons down. It has to be that way. But it is indeed a can of worms, leading to (some) police abusing their authority.

 

5 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

Again, you see a much darker view of the world than EGS has generally proven to be.  Yes, with an actual active threat, force may be required, but when Mr. Verres went beyond the rules and attacked with greater force than was called for, he was disciplined for it.  There is clearly a system, and good people who work hard to uphold it and weed out the bad apples who would abuse it.

I'd agree with that, my understanding of how the world works is pretty jaded. EGS is a bit of a Pollyanna universe, refreshing in its own way, but unrealistic at times. Case in point, Dan almost cannot create a negative character, he ends up over time making them sympathetic. Real people aren't like that; they are more like Rich, stubborn and obtuse, set in their ways.

Mr. Verres's response to Abraham was appropriate for an active threat. He was at that moment a bad cop, because the perpetrator had surrendered and was in custody, and the danger was past. He was acting out of a very personal sense of emotion.

But had it been not-Tengu, I'm not so sure. At some point he will awaken with renewed power, and he will be an already demonstrated dangerous threat.

 

 

 

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20 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:
On 7/30/2019 at 10:49 PM, CritterKeeper said:

So yes, if they have successfully taken Not-Tengu into custody, I expect him to receive a trial of some sort.

We are talking about a universe in which super power exists. What if they know they cannot contain him when he regains his power. Does he still get a trial? Do aberrations get a trial? If not, why not? Who decided? Who gets to say they're not human any more.

You know that someone d@#% well should.

Actually as far as we know there are no superpowers in EGS, just magic.

It's likely they CAN contain him, as long as it wouldn't be in Moperville with it's high ambient magic. Or, like, they can have a trial with two wizards aiming wands at him all the time. But, yes, there may be magic users so powerful they CAN'T contain them ... or, like, they probably have some protocol for dealing with fairies because there doesn't seem to be any way to contain fairy.

The way Edward was talking about aberrations, I don't think they get a trial ... and I think there is relatively easy and objective way to check if someone is one.

Also, I think they wouldn't bother loading aberration into car and driving it away. They would destroy it on place.

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1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Actually as far as we know there are no superpowers in EGS, just magic.

TomAEto, toAHto. Cheerleadra has been compared to a superhero in comic, and flies/floats like a DC super. Anyway, what exactly is a non-magic superpower? Produced by technobabble rather than  * poof * ?  Seems pretty much the same. Plus, we have the Word of Clarke.

 

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

It's likely they CAN contain him, as long as it wouldn't be in Moperville with it's high ambient magic.

Evidently, they think they can.

 

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

The way Edward was talking about aberrations, I don't think they get a trial ... and I think there is relatively easy and objective way to check if someone is one.

Also, I think they wouldn't bother loading aberration into car and driving it away. They would destroy it on place.

I would hope so.

This came up because  of the argument that all magic violation should have a trial (it was stated to be for Constitutional reasons). Who decided aberrations should not? Most of the ones we've seen have a near-human form. In my mind, not-Tengu has put himself over this line as well.

To throw salt on this wound, I feel the same way about wild dogs in real life. Feral dogs and dog hybrids lack the healthy fear of man that makes wolves tolerable.

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56 minutes ago, Darth Fluffy said:
2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Actually as far as we know there are no superpowers in EGS, just magic.

TomAEto, toAHto. Cheerleadra has been compared to a superhero in comic, and flies/floats like a DC super. Anyway, what exactly is a non-magic superpower? Produced by technobabble rather than  * poof * ?  Seems pretty much the same. Plus, we have the Word of Clarke.

Also, Agatha Heterodyne. Yes, it's mostly about how you are looking at it ... but there are comics where the big category is "superhero" and some superheroes are using magic while others (allegedly) don't, while in EGS we have magic users and some of them have spells giving them abilities comparable to DC superheroes.

It's quite likely that intense research would find that both of those situations are actually much closer to each other than they seem, but as long as noone is doing such research ...

1 hour ago, Darth Fluffy said:

This came up because  of the argument that all magic violation should have a trial (it was stated to be for Constitutional reasons). Who decided aberrations should not? Most of the ones we've seen have a near-human form. In my mind, not-Tengu has put himself over this line as well.

To throw salt on this wound, I feel the same way about wild dogs in real life. Feral dogs and dog hybrids lack the healthy fear of man that makes wolves tolerable.

Near-human form or not, the constitutional protection would disappear the moment you declare they are not humans.

It was explicitly said - in the comics commentary I think - that not-Tengu was NOT aberration. Sure, it was also said that he was wanted fugitive very hard to catch, but the main reason the aberrations are destroyed on stop is not that they are dangerous ; it's because they totally lacks empathy and can't ever get better.

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1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

Near-human form or not, the constitutional protection would disappear the moment you declare they are not humans.

Who is "you"? Who are you saying has the authority to declare this and override your laws? Is there a "Treatment of Magic Entities" treaty that spells this out, like other treaties and agreements do for warfare?

 

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

It was explicitly said - in the comics commentary I think - that not-Tengu was NOT aberration.

He's close enough that I wouldn't split hairs. (Well, maybe his, if they're in the way of whatever is being severed.)

 

1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

... the main reason the aberrations are destroyed on stop is not that they are dangerous ; it's because they totally lacks empathy and can't ever get better.

He fits your first criteria, lack of empathy. Is there reason to think he could get better?

I would argue that by any reasonable standard, the danger has to be weighed as a factor, and he was out to kill all of Tedd's mom's relatives. That he wasn't feeding on them ("not an aberration") does not go far toward his favor. He was also a threat of a different kind in the mentally coerced cult he was rebuilding. Might he be able to manipulate his guards as well?

Would you not agree that if you have a known threat, and you choose to hold him rather than execute him, then later he escapes and causes more harm, you bear a portion of the responsibility for that harm?

 

 

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19 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:
21 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Near-human form or not, the constitutional protection would disappear the moment you declare they are not humans.

Who is "you"? Who are you saying has the authority to declare this and override your laws? Is there a "Treatment of Magic Entities" treaty that spells this out, like other treaties and agreements do for warfare?

Probably yes.

It's obvious there IS some sort of international treaty about magic, and even if it doesn't contain specifically something about treating aberrations, existence of such treaty implies there is (or at least was) someone with authority to sign such treaty for US.

19 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:
21 hours ago, hkmaly said:

It was explicitly said - in the comics commentary I think - that not-Tengu was NOT aberration.

He's close enough that I wouldn't split hairs. (Well, maybe his, if they're in the way of whatever is being severed.)

That's not for you to decide.

19 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:
21 hours ago, hkmaly said:

... the main reason the aberrations are destroyed on stop is not that they are dangerous ; it's because they totally lacks empathy and can't ever get better.

He fits your first criteria, lack of empathy. Is there reason to think he could get better?

I don't think he totally lacks empathy, although he didn't shown much of it.

19 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

I would argue that by any reasonable standard, the danger has to be weighed as a factor, and he was out to kill all of Tedd's mom's relatives. That he wasn't feeding on them ("not an aberration") does not go far toward his favor. He was also a threat of a different kind in the mentally coerced cult he was rebuilding.

Not into the fact if he's aberration. Granted, danger is the main argument if you are trying to make a point that despite not being aberration he doesn't deserve to live.

19 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

Might he be able to manipulate his guards as well?

No. Or, like, maybe theoretically, but I think it's not fast enough. And they wouldn't drink the punch.

I would expect that it definitely wouldn't be easy.

19 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

Would you not agree that if you have a known threat, and you choose to hold him rather than execute him, then later he escapes and causes more harm, you bear a portion of the responsibility for that harm?

Well I agree that Batman's policy of dealing with supervilians is really irresponsible ...

... portion? Said like this, yes. But it needs to take into account how likely it was that he escapes.

Personally, I would totally issue orders to not bother to capture specific dangerous individuals alive. But I might not be fit to lead organization like DGB.

As an alternative to Batman, consider Magneto: he was being hold in special glass cell. He wouldn't be able to get out if Mystique didn't put lot of iron into that guard. It can be argued that it was worth the risk. Although it must've cost lot of money ...

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49 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

That's not for you to decide.

It's for someone to decide; you seem to be avoiding that issue.

 

49 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

I don't think he totally lacks empathy, although he didn't shown much of it.

He, and some of the aberrations spent some small amount of time rationalizing their life style; I wouldn't call it empathy.

 

49 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Not into the fact if he's aberration. Granted, danger is the main argument if you are trying to make a point that despite not being aberration he doesn't deserve to live.

... portion? Said like this, yes. But it needs to take into account how likely it was that he escapes.

Consider "I'm going to take revenge on the person that harmed me." vs "I'm going to take revenge out on others, especially since I'm ineffectual at taking out revenge on the one that harmed me; she may kill me." No sense of, "They really weren't involved.", and it must have been deliberate, because he's on a different continent.

Then again, I'm not a fan of the notion that Charles Manson was not given the death penalty. The death penalty is very unpopular, there are good and valid reasons, it has often been abused. But I view it as a culture's immune defense system. If your immune defense system is too aggressive, it harms you; leukemia or allergies, if it is not aggressive enough, that harms you; immune deficiency. There is a balance, and it is necessary to have both protection from the monsters and mercy for the mere miscreants.

The rational genius of the four girls came to the same conclusion about non-Tengu. Wolf agrees non-Tengu is dangerous.

 

49 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

No. Or, like, maybe theoretically, but I think it's not fast enough. And they wouldn't drink the punch.

I would expect that it definitely wouldn't be easy.

I did not get the impression that the punch was necessary. Expedient, yes.

Consider, how did the punch get tainted? It's a good bet that non-Tengu did not do it himself. He would have been conspicuous, even in his human form. That implies mind control. Although, in the confrontation outside, he did not appear to use mind control.

 

49 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

As an alternative to Batman, consider Magneto: he was being hold in special glass cell. He wouldn't be able to get out if Mystique didn't put lot of iron into that guard. It can be argued that it was worth the risk. Although it must've cost lot of money ...

Magneto, at least in his modern incarnation, is not an entirely unsympathetic character. His sub-culture, his mutant identity, is beleaguered in his world, and he is one response to it. In at least one back story he is a Holocaust survivor; you can see where that would influence his outlook. I'm not sure it makes sense that he's merely incarcerated from the point of view of his non-mutant opponents; maybe they need to do that as a token gesture to keep the non-hostile mutants in line. But ultimately, his incarceration is story driven; "We'll want to reuse this character."

 

49 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Personally, I would totally issue orders to not bother to capture specific dangerous individuals alive. But I might not be fit to lead organization like DGB.

I think you could. We tend to rise to the occasion if we allow ourselves to. I've been thrust into roles I did not relish, and managed to do what I consider to be the right thing. I don't know that I would want this job, but I think I could do it if it was my job.

 

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6 hours ago, hkmaly said:

I don't think he totally lacks empathy, although he didn't shown much of it.

Not into the fact if he's aberration. Granted, danger is the main argument if you are trying to make a point that despite not being aberration he doesn't deserve to live.

Personally, I would totally issue orders to not bother to capture specific dangerous individuals alive. But I might not be fit to lead organization like DGB.

It used to be that the Federal Government and State/Territorial Governments would put "Wanted Dead or Alive" on the Wanted posters for the most dangerous criminals. Getting known killers out of circulation was a higher priority than granting the killer his right to a fair trial.

On Aberrations and Empathy, I think it has been left somewhat ambiguous as to whether they lack empathy because they needed to be without empathy in order to become aberrations in the first place, or whether it was because becoming aberrations removed any empathy they may have had left.

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Just now, ijuin said:

On Aberrations and Empathy, I think it has been left somewhat ambiguous as to whether they lack empathy because they needed to be without empathy in order to become aberrations in the first place, or whether it was because becoming aberrations removed any empathy they may have had left.

Sirleck implied that there were other reasons that he chose to become a bodysnatcher and that they were initially good intentioned, but over the years he lost any empathy he had.

But it's probably likely most aberrations had very little empathy to begin with and greed and power were what drove them to becoming aberrations.

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9 hours ago, Scotty said:

Sirleck implied that there were other reasons that he chose to become a bodysnatcher and that they were initially good intentioned, but over the years he lost any empathy he had.

He didn't actually say it was over years; it may be that the moment he became an Aberration, he lost all his good intentions and any remaining empathy.

9 hours ago, Scotty said:

But it's probably likely most aberrations had very little empathy to begin with and greed and power were what drove them to becoming aberrations.

I actually have just a teensy little bit of sympathy for Sirleck based on what he told of his history.  Makes me think of Harry Dresden -- taking extreme measures in order to gain power for good ends, but those very measures trying to destroy all interest in those good ends.  I could picture him being a well-intentioned extremist who might have had some hope of redemption if he hadn't taken that last step over the edge.

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14 hours ago, ijuin said:

It used to be that the Federal Government and State/Territorial Governments would put "Wanted Dead or Alive" on the Wanted posters for the most dangerous criminals. Getting known killers out of circulation was a higher priority than granting the killer his right to a fair trial.

Yes, and it used to be that a black man would be beaten to death if he whistled at a white woman, and a woman couldn't charge her husband with rape because she was considered to have given perpetual consent to whatever he wanted when she married him,  The way it used to be usually changed to the way it is now for a reason.

If nothing else, there were plenty of cases of mistaken identity, frame-ups, fabricated evidence and false witness, all sorts of things that might come out if the accused got a trial.  Too many real bad guys got away with murder and worse because someone else was killed for the crime before they could get a trial.  Even today, people are found to have been innocent who had already been executed, or had lost decades of their lives rotting in prison for crimes they were proven innocent of.  At least if they're alive, the wrongfully convicted have a chance of proving they're innocent.

Look at Magus.  He committed some truly awful acts, working with an Aberration and conspiring to set other Aberrations loose in a public space surrounded by innocents; kidnapping and mental domination, body-snatching....we know he had good reasons, but what if he'd been killed in the process? 

 

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Just now, CritterKeeper said:

He didn't actually say it was over years; it may be that the moment he became an Aberration, he lost all his good intentions and any remaining empathy.

It's just a theory but the "bodysnatch one person who deserved it for years at a time"  suggested that the intention might have been to target rich, corrupt people and siphon money for a more noble cause, but maybe something happened that changed things, like maybe a loved one that he was trying to help by doing this died despite his best efforts.

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1 hour ago, CritterKeeper said:

Look at Magus.  He committed some truly awful acts, working with an Aberration and conspiring to set other Aberrations loose in a public space surrounded by innocents; kidnapping and mental domination, body-snatching....we know he had good reasons, but what if he'd been killed in the process?

Magus was using Sirleck and planned to kill him more so than working with him. He was planning that the other aberrations would be killed as well.  

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