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      Welcome!   03/05/2016

      Welcome, everyone, to the new 910CMX Community Forums. I'm still working on getting them running, so things may change.  If you're a 910 Comic creator and need your forum recreated, let me know and I'll get on it right away.  I'll do my best to make this new place as fun as the last one!
Tom Sewell

Story Monday, August 12, 2018

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7 minutes ago, Scotty said:

There's also the fact that she apparently had such a hard crush on Rick that finding out he was gay devastated her and had her acting homophobic for a while,

I have never really forgiven her for that 'defective' comment. It was just so repellent.

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5 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

I have never really forgiven her for that 'defective' comment. It was just so repellent.

She's gone through a lot of growth and realization, about herself and others, since then.  She's also made what seems to be a genuine sincere apology to the person she used it on.  I'm with Justin -- accept the apology and forgive, unless she does it again, in which case, by all means hold the original offense against her again.

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1 minute ago, CritterKeeper said:

She's gone through a lot of growth and realization, about herself and others, since then.  She's also made what seems to be a genuine sincere apology to the person she used it on.  I'm with Justin -- accept the apology and forgive, unless she does it again, in which case, by all means hold the original offense against her again.

Certainly, and you have the right to do that. By the same token I have the right to not forgive her.

When I was her age, I was just as ignorant about LGBTQI* issues as she used to be. It happened to me at least twice that I expressed interest in someone who happened to not be of an orientation that was interested in me. I nodded and moved on (or in one of the cases, stayed friends) and did not go into a homophobic death spiral where I casually hurt anyone who wasn't cishet because I felt sorry for myself. You may forgive, Justin may forgive, anyone who wishes to may forgive, but I do not trust her and see no reason I should extend any trust to her until she to my satisfaction has proven herself trustworthy.

And in any real world situation she would face an uphill struggle doing that. I cannot read minds nor divine intentions, and I do not have the luxury of seeing what she is doing when alone in convenient panels with her thoughts in neat little frames.

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Just now, The Old Hack said:

You may forgive, Justin may forgive, anyone who wishes to may forgive, but I do not trust her and see no reason I should extend any trust to her until she to my satisfaction has proven herself trustworthy.

I'm not sure what else Diane could do to prove herself though, I find it hard to believe that she's faking her feelings for Lucy. But by that token, do you not trust Elliot for his first comment seeing Tedd female, after what Elliot's done since then, and how he reacted to having those first comments come back to him? Elliot's probably a prime example of "walking a mile in someone else's shoes" in terms of having to spend a lot of time as a girl as well, and realizing that it's a part of who he is has gone a long way towards understanding how Tedd feels.

On that note, I do understand that trust can be hard to give to someone you know, but considering these are characters created by Dan, I have a hard time believing that he'd go through the trouble of developing people like Elliot, Diane, even Larry as people that learn from their misdeeds and try to be better, only to through that out the window.

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1 hour ago, Scotty said:

I'm not sure what else Diane could do to prove herself though,

She has absolutely nothing to prove to me. She can do just fine without my trust and would also be able to do fine without it in a RL situation. She just has to not break anyone else's trust in the future, or she will eventually isolate herself.

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8 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

She has absolutely nothing to prove to me. She can do just fine without my trust and would also be able to do fine without it in a RL situation. She just has to not break anyone else's trust in the future, or she will eventually isolate herself.

I can certainly understand if there's continuous relapses, I'd get tired of the whole harm/apologize cycle as well. But as far as I can tell, that cycle hasn't formed yet, certainly there's been a string of bad behaviour for a while and Diane only now apologized for it, but I think it's fair to give her 1 chance to make good on her apologies before writing her off as a lost cause.

I mentioned I was bullied a lot in school, I've only really had contact with a couple of those that bullied me in recent years, and while they haven't apologized for their behaviour, they've been friendly towards me and so I've felt no need to hold their past actions over their heads. There is one bully though that I considered the worst, the one that always hounded me throughout elementary and secondary school, he was the main reason I had to transfer schools halfway through 8th grade and from what I heard he started picking on others in my absence, the last time I saw him he was a jerk and far as I know, still is. He had such a negative affect on me that the mention of his name brought up bad memories, which is something I had to deal with when I started reading EGS because his name was Justin and he was ginger haired and always bragged about taking Judo classes, it took me a bit to convince myself that EGS Justin was in no way, shape or form the same as the one that tormented me. I honestly don't know if I'd ever forgive him for the things he did, I don't expect to ever see him again, it might be too late to apologize, maybe 10-15 years ago? I dunno.

I don't know if this even equates to your experiences, but while I do have that 1 that still grinds on me, everything else tells me that Diane deserves a fair shake. If anything if someone like her has made the effort in making up for their past actions were to come to me asking for help, what would it make me if I were to use the past as an excuse to refuse?

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10 hours ago, Scotty said:
17 hours ago, Darth Fluffy said:

I know you know these: Panel 5Panel 3 ,  Panel 3 .  Attracted to two different girls, and Elliot, at least for a while. Meh, might be like Ashley, "I don't like labels."

As far as I can tell, Diane hasn't show a dislike for men in general, she hasn't had any "maybe I just need to find the right man" denials that Nanase had. Of course there was the "but not all boys!" comments, but considering she was looking for romance and the boys she dated apparently weren't interested in romance, she never really had any experience that would tell her "maybe boys aren't for me". There's also the fact that she apparently had such a hard crush on Rick that finding out he was gay devastated her and had her acting homophobic for a while, I dunno if even being gay herself even if she didn't realize it yet, would have produced the same reaction if she only thought Rick might be attracted rather than actually being attracted to him. At best I'd say she could be Bisexual Homoromantic like Ellen is, except without the male attraction being tacked on magically.

Right, her attraction to Rick seems supporting her being bisexual even more than what she said about Elliot.

Also, for reference, I don't doubt she's bisexual ; I'm just not considering it completely confirmed by canon.

 

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4 hours ago, Scotty said:

I don't know if this even equates to your experiences, but while I do have that 1 that still grinds on me, everything else tells me that Diane deserves a fair shake.

And that is completely valid! Again, I am not saying that my feelings take precedence over anyone else's. If you are naturally more forgiving than I am, that may even be good for you. I do know that I have thresholds that I do not readily forgive others for crossing, and to me saying something so gross and so objectifying as 'defective' in such an offhand way is an act of cruelty worthy of someone entirely soulless. She dismissed Justin's value as a human being in a way I find repellent and contemptible, and lest we forget, this was a person who had been driven to near suicide by homophobic persecution. I do not readily forgive something like that.

4 hours ago, Scotty said:

If anything if someone like her has made the effort in making up for their past actions were to come to me asking for help, what would it make me if I were to use the past as an excuse to refuse?

Be careful here. I do not consider it an excuse to base my decisions on past experiences. I do not owe someone who has acted like that anything at all, and efforts to make up for past actions are for each person to accept or reject. Every person is not equally affected by every action, good or bad. The same insult might mean something completely different to different people and the intent behind it matters, too.

I make no secret of this: I can be and often am exceedingly vindictive. The golden rule states that you should act toward others as you wish them to act toward you. To me the logical converse is that if they treat me like shit, they clearly wish me to treat them like shit, too. I am not completely unreasonable about this -- I make allowances for someone having a bad day and acting in an unreasonable way due to frustrations -- but Diane was quite calm and offhand about entirely disregarding Justin's personhood. That makes it calculated cruelty and I do not find that in any way or form acceptable. Justin had done NOTHING to deserve that kind of treatment.

As to her coming to me asking for help, that would depend on the kind of help she wanted. If she wanted directions, I'd happily tell her where to go. If she happened to be injured or in danger, I would give her the assistance required of me as my expectations of a decent human being dictate that I do. (This is not even mentioning the fact that I am a trained paramedic and thus obligated to help fellow humans in need.) If she wanted to borrow money, I'd inform her of the existence of banks. It's all situational here.

But I am not required to like her, and I don't.

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1 hour ago, The Old Hack said:

If she wanted directions, I'd happily tell her where to go.

... this can be interpreted in multiple ways :)

... which reminds me, we still don't know what directions Elliot told to Andrea.

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1 hour ago, The Old Hack said:

And that is completely valid! Again, I am not saying that my feelings take precedence over anyone else's. If you are naturally more forgiving than I am, that may even be good for you. I do know that I have thresholds that I do not readily forgive others for crossing, and to me saying something so gross and so objectifying as 'defective' in such an offhand way is an act of cruelty worthy of someone entirely soulless. She dismissed Justin's value as a human being in a way I find repellent and contemptible, and lest we forget, this was a person who had been driven to near suicide by homophobic persecution. I do not readily forgive something like that.

Diane's homophobia at that point in time was apparently also layered over a general attitude of misandry--she was a "user", treating most men as having value only in terms of how they can benefit a woman. From that viewpoint, any man who had no interest in women was therefore useless, whether it be from him preferring male company, being totally asexual, or having the mistaken belief that there are more important things in life than women (e.g. sports, religion, studying, career).

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1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

... this can be interpreted in multiple ways :)

Trust me. That was entirely intentional, and the only ones I would apply in her case would be the rude ones.

34 minutes ago, ijuin said:

Diane's homophobia at that point in time was apparently also layered over a general attitude of misandry--she was a "user", treating most men as having value only in terms of how they can benefit a woman. From that viewpoint, any man who had no interest in women was therefore useless, whether it be from him preferring male company, being totally asexual, or having the mistaken belief that there are more important things in life than women (e.g. sports, religion, studying, career).

Indeed. I have more than one reason for disliking her.

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2 hours ago, InfiniteRemnant said:
19 hours ago, Scotty said:

We likely won't see Diane go for a male though unless something happens between her and Lucy.

or TO lucy. this comic has done stranger things. on a regular basis.

However, despite all those strange things, almost everyone survived.

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4 hours ago, hkmaly said:
6 hours ago, InfiniteRemnant said:

or TO lucy. this comic has done stranger things. on a regular basis.

However, despite all those strange things, almost everyone survived.

Who said anything about survival? i was talking about her getting turned into a guy.

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On 8/14/2019 at 8:37 AM, The Old Hack said:

I have never really forgiven her for that 'defective' comment. It was just so repellent.

I'm in no way trying to tell you how to think about the characters, but personally I chalk that scene up to "Early Installment Weirdness". Even as far back as when Grace and Ellen first got to know her, Diane felt like an almost completely different character to me from the one we first saw Nanase and Justin interacting with. I think if Dan were writing that scene today, Diane wouldn't have called Justin that (or talked about Rhoda the way she did).

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1 hour ago, ChronosCat said:

I'm in no way trying to tell you how to think about the characters, but personally I chalk that scene up to "Early Installment Weirdness". Even as far back as when Grace and Ellen first got to know her, Diane felt like an almost completely different character to me from the one we first saw Nanase and Justin interacting with. I think if Dan were writing that scene today, Diane wouldn't have called Justin that (or talked about Rhoda the way she did).

That is completely fair and I certainly understand that. The problem is, I can't distance myself from it with that method. The problem is that while Dan was not as experienced a writer back then as he is now, he was nonetheless skilled enough to make Diane come across as a very real archetype that I passionately despise. Straw Feminist Susan came across as a parody and she recovered from it fairly soon. Also her recovery struck me as very real and she was sensitive enough to notice when she fucked up almost right away.

Dan did humanise Diane, but by the time she started to make up for some of her most shitty actions it was too late for me. I am not very forgiving to begin with and that bad first impression had by then turned into rooted dislike and distrust. Her recent apology to Justin was welcome, and I agree she is trying... but part of me still despises her for what she did.

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Diane was offensive to more than a few in her early appearances.

This led to several people taking a dislike to her.

Her character has grown and developed since then.  She has all but said, "I was wrong".

Fine for her. 

But if someone didn't like her yesterday, there is no reason that person should be compelled to like her today.

Do I hate her now?  No.

Do I need to see her punished in the story?  No.

Do I need to see her in the story at all?  If Dan had not made Diane somehow important to Susan, Adrian Raven, and Rhoda, I really would not miss her if she did not reappear in the narrative.  As it is, if the story ever moves beyond the High Schools of Moperville, I won't need updates on her continuing education.

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10 hours ago, InfiniteRemnant said:
14 hours ago, hkmaly said:
17 hours ago, InfiniteRemnant said:

or TO lucy. this comic has done stranger things. on a regular basis.

However, despite all those strange things, almost everyone survived.

Who said anything about survival? i was talking about her getting turned into a guy.

Permanently? Ok, we have such examples in EGS, but I think Diane would be more ok with Lucy being guy than Lucy ... and Tedd would certainly find way to turn her back.

 

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6 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Do I need to see her in the story at all?  If Dan had not made Diane somehow important to Susan, Adrian Raven, and Rhoda, I really would not miss her if she did not reappear in the narrative.  As it is, if the story ever moves beyond the High Schools of Moperville, I won't need updates on her continuing education.

I don't see her going away at this point. She's pretty much part of an expanding set of main characters.

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On 8/14/2019 at 2:04 PM, Scotty said:

I'm not sure what else Diane could do to prove herself though, I find it hard to believe that she's faking her feelings for Lucy. But by that token, do you not trust Elliot for his first comment seeing Tedd female, after what Elliot's done since then, and how he reacted to having those first comments come back to him? Elliot's probably a prime example of "walking a mile in someone else's shoes" in terms of having to spend a lot of time as a girl as well, and realizing that it's a part of who he is has gone a long way towards understanding how Tedd feels.

This is an excellent point.  Elliot and Diane both made crappy comments, and both have realized they were wrong to do so.  In fact, Elliot never actually apologized to Tedd, he just tried to show that he feels differently now.  Diane came right out and said she was wrong to say it and she was sorry she had.

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5 hours ago, CritterKeeper said:

This is an excellent point.  Elliot and Diane both made crappy comments, and both have realized they were wrong to do so.  In fact, Elliot never actually apologized to Tedd, he just tried to show that he feels differently now.  Diane came right out and said she was wrong to say it and she was sorry she had.

Once again, I have no problem with others be more forgiving of Diane than I am.

If I am supposed to infer from this that I am being hypocritical, I counter with the fact that Diane was being deliberately hurtful and consigned Justin to the status of 'defective'. This, incidentally, is a form of dehumanisation that the disabled are also very familiar with.

Elliot, on the other hand, spoke hurtful words out of ignorance and also had and has going for him that he has never intentionally sought to hurt Tedd and on most other occasions has been fully supportive of him.

If my willingness to forgive Elliot but reluctance to do the same thing for Diane makes me a hypocrite, I shall make the most of it. I do not have any duty to forgive those who have inflicted harm on either me or those I care about, not even in fiction, and I reject the creed that calls for turning the other cheek. In too many cases it merely gives the abuser more opportunities to harm you.

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