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hkmaly

NP Friday, Sep 27, 2019

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http://egscomics.com/egsnp/parable-013

I'm not surprised. Most games will punish you for playing them differently than you are supposed to, not reward ... all rewarding ways to play differently than you should are labeled cheats and "fixed".

BTW, this will likely be talked about more in later comics, but ... note that sometimes it's not worth to balance the game too much. Sometimes it's OK when there is point in game after which you basically no longer need to care about something delaying your progress before. It just means in that stage, there is something else delaying you. Or maybe you already won and are expected to start another game at higher difficulty.

And we already mentioned that being too realistic would make the game unplayable, right?

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I remember a video game I played once where I was supposed to gather and eat everything on the game path while a number of non-player characters would chase, and attempt to eat, me

But if I ate the right thing I could, temporarily, eat the things that were chasing me

Honestly, it seemed like there was more than enough material to feed my character and the NPCs without any of us needing to eat each other

But they would not engage in negotiations

It took me a while to realize that what was actually being eaten were my quarters

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Some games do allow for a third choice in some matters, like Skyrim has one where there's 2 guys fighting over a girl and they both come to you to try to sabotage the other's chances, so it's either help one or the other, but you could also tell the girl the truth about it and then I think she becomes someone you could marry later on.

In the Fallout games though, I think you need to meet certain SPECIAL requirements in order to be able to use a third (or fourth) option (like persuasion or intimidation), there was a quest in Fallout 4 where a guy said his son had taken a family heirloom, it's clear their relationship wasn't very good, but when you find the kid you have a chance to persuade him to go back to his dad, then you gotta try to convince his dad to reconcile their differences.

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6 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Some games do allow for a third choice in some matters, like Skyrim has one where there's 2 guys fighting over a girl and they both come to you to try to sabotage the other's chances, so it's either help one or the other, but you could also tell the girl the truth about it and then I think she becomes someone you could marry later on.

Oh, yes, sabotage both ... sounds quite obvious.

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Then a lot of games where there's a false choice - i.e. no matter what option you choose, the outcome is the same.

One of those really annoyed me in Neverwinter Nights. You encounter a sorceress being chased by a couple of guards from the mage school she attended (this is a very D&D game, so a sorceress shouldn't have been sent to a mage school - it's roughly equivalent to a fish in a beginning-swimming lesson). Apparently she committed some crimes there in addition to the offense of running away from the school. In other words, she's a thug. But you can't attack HER. You can attack the guards - and they'll end up dying at your feet, she thanks you for your help and joins your party. You can just stand there and watch - the guards will die at your feet, and she thanks you for your help and joins your party. You can try to run away - the guards will die at your feet, and she thanks you for your help and joins your party. And the only way to avoid the encounter is to stop playing the game before you get that far.

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7 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

One of those really annoyed me in Neverwinter Nights. You encounter a sorceress being chased by a couple of guards from the mage school she attended (this is a very D&D game, so a sorceress shouldn't have been sent to a mage school - it's roughly equivalent to a fish in a beginning-swimming lesson). Apparently she committed some crimes there in addition to the offense of running away from the school. In other words, she's a thug. But you can't attack HER. You can attack the guards - and they'll end up dying at your feet, she thanks you for your help and joins your party. You can just stand there and watch - the guards will die at your feet, and she thanks you for your help and joins your party. You can try to run away - the guards will die at your feet, and she thanks you for your help and joins your party. And the only way to avoid the encounter is to stop playing the game before you get that far.

I think you already complained about Qara some time ago ... hmmm ... wait, that was in MAY?

On 5/22/2019 at 7:26 AM, Don Edwards said:

This version of Carol reminds me of a certain character in Neverwinter Nights. The sorceress who's escaping from the mage academy*. If you help her defeat the mages chasing her, they die at your feet and she thanks you and joins your company. If you ignore the mess, the mages chasing her die at your feet and she thanks you and joins your company. If you run away, the mages chasing her die at your feet and she thanks you and joins your company. And SHE'S A SELF-CENTERED TWIT!

(If you try to help the mages chasing her, the game won't let you.)

* If you know your D&D, you wonder what the heck a sorceress was doing at a mage academy**. Ignore that.

** In case you don't: sorcerers do magic instinctively; mages have to study it. Sending a sorcerer to a mage academy is like teaching a dolphin to dog-paddle and kick its feet. Mages, on the other hand, can do more powerful magic than sorcerers - eventually, when they get to higher levels.

I think the version from May was better. BTW I replied back then, in case you missed it.

 

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21 hours ago, Don Edwards said:

Then a lot of games where there's a false choice - i.e. no matter what option you choose, the outcome is the same.

I've encountered this before, but the example you give is particularly poorly designed; if they weren't interested in giving you a choice there they should have just taken control of the PC or done the battle in a cutscene, or at least railroaded you into fighting a little better.

My personal least favorite false choice was in Dragon Quest/Warrior III. You have been fighting with a band of thieves, and after killing all of them but the leader, the leader begs you to let him go (not just spare him, but let him go free). I think he promises to be good, but he'd already proven to be treacherous and there's no reason to believe him. However if you say "No" to letting him go, he'll just ask again, and again, and again until you give in and let him go. (Oddly enough, shortly after this there's a situation that looks like another false choice - but if you choose the option you're not supposed to take a few times, it works and you're able to skip a small section of the story.)

On the other hand, sometimes a false choice can be done in such a way that it makes sense within the story and doesn't take away your control of your character's actions. For example, in Chrono Trigger, early on in the game you are put on trial. Depending on your actions earlier on in the game and how you answer questions during the trial, you can either be sentenced to execution, or to just a few days jail time - but either way when you get to the jail the Chancellor tells the prison guards you are to be executed. Later on in the game, this turns out to be a plot point...

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7 hours ago, ChronosCat said:
On 9/29/2019 at 7:06 PM, Don Edwards said:

Then a lot of games where there's a false choice - i.e. no matter what option you choose, the outcome is the same.

I've encountered this before, but the example you give is particularly poorly designed; if they weren't interested in giving you a choice there they should have just taken control of the PC or done the battle in a cutscene, or at least railroaded you into fighting a little better.

Or, like, make the same outcome without your action in little more believable way. Like, she could take cover behind you (you are unlikely to be able to PREVENT her from doing that).

7 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

My personal least favorite false choice was in Dragon Quest/Warrior III. You have been fighting with a band of thieves, and after killing all of them but the leader, the leader begs you to let him go (not just spare him, but let him go free). I think he promises to be good, but he'd already proven to be treacherous and there's no reason to believe him. However if you say "No" to letting him go, he'll just ask again, and again, and again until you give in and let him go. (Oddly enough, shortly after this there's a situation that looks like another false choice - but if you choose the option you're not supposed to take a few times, it works and you're able to skip a small section of the story.)

That's definitely not nice, but at least it can be argued that he simply begged so long you gave up. In other false choices, it looks more like broken dialogue.

7 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

On the other hand, sometimes a false choice can be done in such a way that it makes sense within the story and doesn't take away your control of your character's actions. For example, in Chrono Trigger, early on in the game you are put on trial. Depending on your actions earlier on in the game and how you answer questions during the trial, you can either be sentenced to execution, or to just a few days jail time - but either way when you get to the jail the Chancellor tells the prison guards you are to be executed. Later on in the game, this turns out to be a plot point...

... It was an accident, I didn't wanted to eat that lunch, I only wanted to look at it ...

 

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21 hours ago, ChronosCat said:

On the other hand, sometimes a false choice can be done in such a way that it makes sense within the story and doesn't take away your control of your character's actions. For example, in Chrono Trigger, early on in the game you are put on trial. Depending on your actions earlier on in the game and how you answer questions during the trial, you can either be sentenced to execution, or to just a few days jail time - but either way when you get to the jail the Chancellor tells the prison guards you are to be executed. Later on in the game, this turns out to be a plot point...

Don't forget that it's impossible to avoid running into Marle in the first place, and the game won't progress until you help her find the pendant.

I do remember the game Lufia 2: Rise of the Sinistrals where you fight Gades for the first time, normally he's supposed to kick your arse and gloat over you being weak, but it is apparently possible to beat him and get his sword, you just had to grind a bit to get the characters to like level 35-40 to be able to survive a hit.  Beating him early on doesn't really affect the story as he still technically knocks you out before leaving.

Lufia and the Fortress of Doom has the first Gades fight too close to the start of the game so there wasn't much you could do to grind levels.

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On 10/1/2019 at 9:18 AM, Scotty said:

Don't forget that it's impossible to avoid running into Marle in the first place, and the game won't progress until you help her find the pendant.

Actually, if you walk into that section of the fair slowly it's pretty easy to avoid her; I've even managed to swerve around her while running before. Of course, as with finding the pendant the story won't progress until you run into her.

I think "actions you need to take if you want to progress the story" aren't quite the same thing as "false choices", though.

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