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Pharaoh RutinTutin

NP Wednesday December 11, 2019

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24 minutes ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Susan, are you sure you want to be dispensing more evil before you get your current evil levels under control?

She probably prefers doing stuff which the game considers evil like shrinking the bandits instead of things SHE considers evil like killing them.

55 minutes ago, Dan said:

Of course, that wasn't good enough for the third Fable game, so when you paused it, you got magically transported to another location entirely where everything was stored and you had to walk around to them, because REALISM!

Ok that's totally realistic because it worked basically same in Matrix :)

... in general, inventory in games needs to be done in way making the game playable, not realistic. Realistically, the marine in Doom wouldn't be able to carry eight big weapons and all that ammo, and realistically, most adventurers would opt to have freight mule for putting all the stuff on but most games wouldn't be able to handle the mule on screen without really bad issues with collisions.

Also, in many games bags of holding and/or teleport storage totally makes sense.

(I also remember some RPG game where you could put several chests into chest of same size. I was disappointed when this nice solution wasn't available in other games.)

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1 hour ago, hkmaly said:

(I also remember some RPG game where you could put several chests into chest of same size. I was disappointed when this nice solution wasn't available in other games.)

There was an ooooold roguelike game called Castle of the Winds that different types of storage ranging from bags (3 sizes), backpacks (also 3 sizes) and chests (you guessed it, also also 3 sizes), the all had set weight and bulk (volume) limits but could generally hold more than the external space they took up, which mean you could nest several large backpacks in a large chest and essentially carry more than the chest would on it's own. also the storage items come in enchanted flavours too which had increased capacities.

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17 minutes ago, Scotty said:

There was an ooooold roguelike game called Castle of the Winds that different types of storage ranging from bags (3 sizes), backpacks (also 3 sizes) and chests (you guessed it, also also 3 sizes), the all had set weight and bulk (volume) limits but could generally hold more than the external space they took up, which mean you could nest several large backpacks in a large chest and essentially carry more than the chest would on it's own. also the storage items come in enchanted flavours too which had increased capacities.

I still feel that the best form of magical storage ever would have to be Rincewind's Luggage. Admittedly it could be rather temperamental at times.

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58 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:
3 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Susan, are you sure you want to be dispensing more evil before you get your current evil levels under control?

Oh come on, that was never evil!

The game disagree. Didn't you noticed the "gained more evil" icon?

18 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:
38 minutes ago, Scotty said:

There was an ooooold roguelike game called Castle of the Winds that different types of storage ranging from bags (3 sizes), backpacks (also 3 sizes) and chests (you guessed it, also also 3 sizes), the all had set weight and bulk (volume) limits but could generally hold more than the external space they took up, which mean you could nest several large backpacks in a large chest and essentially carry more than the chest would on it's own. also the storage items come in enchanted flavours too which had increased capacities.

I still feel that the best form of magical storage ever would have to be Rincewind's Luggage. Admittedly it could be rather temperamental at times.

It is.

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2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

The game disagree. Didn't you noticed the "gained more evil" icon?

See, I have to disagree. "Good" would have been just killing them and looting them. This way they get to live and the potion will wear off. Bad programming.

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4 hours ago, The Old Hack said:

See, I have to disagree. "Good" would have been just killing them and looting them. This way they get to live and the potion will wear off. Bad programming.

The game's probably like "See, what you just did will only lead to the bandits getting out and causing more problems later cus they're bandits and that's all they'll ever do, it would have been better in the long run to just kill them"

Even Dan said on discord that the game is punishing Susan.

Quote

Yeah, the shrinking does have a reverse option. Susan is being punished for what can be seen as full pacifist with no permanent damage whatsoever.

 

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Well, since every person is potentially either a criminal or a crime victim or even both why not simply eliminate everyone you encounter?

That way, there are fewer people committing crimes, and fewer people being victimized by crime

Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius

Cistercian abbot Arnaud Amalric certainly found a way to keep things simple for the Crusaders at Béziers

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18 hours ago, The Old Hack said:
20 hours ago, hkmaly said:

The game disagree. Didn't you noticed the "gained more evil" icon?

See, I have to disagree. "Good" would have been just killing them and looting them. This way they get to live and the potion will wear off. Bad programming.

That's understandable. I was just making sure you know what you disagree with.

13 hours ago, Scotty said:

The game's probably like "See, what you just did will only lead to the bandits getting out and causing more problems later cus they're bandits and that's all they'll ever do, it would have been better in the long run to just kill them"

More likely, the programmer just didn't though about anyone using these potions on bandits.

On the other hand, it is true that people like Batman who insist on capturing every villain and putting them to jail instead of finally killing them when they escape and kill someone AGAIN are really raising the criminality.

11 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Well, since every person is potentially either a criminal or a crime victim or even both why not simply eliminate everyone you encounter?

The "kill everyone and let God sort them out" option?

There are situations where it makes sense, but generally, you meet more innocents than criminals, so at least SOME pre-sorting is worth it.

 

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59 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

On the other hand, it is true that people like Batman who insist on capturing every villain and putting them to jail instead of finally killing them when they escape and kill someone AGAIN are really raising the criminality.

Personally I would rather say that it is his scriptwriters who are doing it. After all, it is the script which says they get to escape and do it again.

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1 hour ago, The Old Hack said:
2 hours ago, hkmaly said:

On the other hand, it is true that people like Batman who insist on capturing every villain and putting them to jail instead of finally killing them when they escape and kill someone AGAIN are really raising the criminality.

Personally I would rather say that it is his scriptwriters who are doing it. After all, it is the script which says they get to escape and do it again.

Scriptwriters are out-of-universe explanation. In-universe, the facility those villains are being put in clearly lack the security level required to hold them. Granted, if you are pacifist you can opt for creating better prison instead, but in my opinion those villains don't deserve yet another chance.

... although, on second though, with scriptwriters determined enough killing the villain is not going to suffice either. Case in point.

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14 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:
15 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Scriptwriters are out-of-universe explanation.

So is "The game says so."

No, so is "More likely, the programmer just didn't though about anyone using these potions on bandits."

The game saying it is a fact. We can try to search for explanation for that fact.

2 hours ago, hkmaly said:
13 hours ago, Pharaoh RutinTutin said:

Well, since every person is potentially either a criminal or a crime victim or even both why not simply eliminate everyone you encounter?

The "kill everyone and let God sort them out" option?

There are situations where it makes sense, but generally, you meet more innocents than criminals, so at least SOME pre-sorting is worth it.

... now, in the specific situation of the game, people you meet are truly more likely to be criminals ... in addition to that, in many games you simply CANT kill anyone not deserving it ...

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Just now, hkmaly said:

The game saying it is a fact. We can try to search for explanation for that fact.

Even so. You are saying that Batman taking criminals alive causes more crime. That is idiotic on the face of it, but let's leave that for now. The REASON Batman takes criminals alive and the REASON the criminals keep escaping to do more crime is BECAUSE THE WRITERS SAY SO.

This is not even mentioning that there are no people like Batman. If these exist, I must have missed them.

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1 minute ago, The Old Hack said:
4 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

The game saying it is a fact. We can try to search for explanation for that fact.

Even so. You are saying that Batman taking criminals alive causes more crime. That is idiotic on the face of it, but let's leave that for now. The REASON Batman takes criminals alive and the REASON the criminals keep escaping to do more crime is BECAUSE THE WRITERS SAY SO.

Applying this kind of reasoning in real world is called fatalism. I personally don't consider it healthy viewpoint, even though in Batman universe it's obviously literally true.

3 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

This is not even mentioning that there are no people like Batman. If these exist, I must have missed them.

To be fair, there seem to be lack of Poison Ivy's and Mr. Freeze's as well. Unfortunately I'm less sure about Joker.

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2 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:
12 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Applying this kind of reasoning in real world is called fatalism.

...

...my whole point is that this is NOT real. You CANNOT use Batman as a real world equivalency, which is what you did.

Wait what? You think the fable game parody in EGS:NP is more real than Batman?

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Just now, hkmaly said:

Wait what? You think the fable game parody in EGS:NP is more real than Batman?

What the sodding bollocks are you talking about? You made a general statement about Batman. There is no Batman nor any people like Batman anywhere in the whole strip. I could only assume that you were speaking in general terms.

You spewed utter taurine manure and employed that as an 'argument', and I refuted it. I can go back to the entire root of your claim, that people like Batman somehow cause MORE crime. Let's forget that he is not real for a moment and look at the 'logic' this implies:

First timeline:
Criminal commits crime.
Criminal is neither captured nor imprisoned.
Criminal keeps committing crimes uninterrupted.
Crime equals a value of X.

Second timeline, a period of time equal to the first one:
Criminal commits crime.
Criminal is captured by Batman or people like him with access to billions as well as high tech weaponry and ninja training.
Criminal goes to jail.
Criminal eventually escapes from jail.
Criminal resumes committing crime.
Crime equals the same as above MINUS the crime the criminal would have committed if they had not spent time imprisoned.
Or in other words, LESS crime.

Somehow you made that into Batman causing MORE crime. I cannot for the life of me comprehend how this is supposed to work.

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15 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:
23 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

Wait what? You think the fable game parody in EGS:NP is more real than Batman?

What the sodding bollocks are you talking about? You made a general statement about Batman. There is no Batman nor any people like Batman anywhere in the whole strip. I could only assume that you were speaking in general terms.

15 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

Let's forget that he is not real for a moment

I'm really confused by the importance you give to this "being real" stuff in context of this discussion.

15 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

You spewed utter taurine manure and employed that as an 'argument', and I refuted it. I can go back to the entire root of your claim, that people like Batman somehow cause MORE crime. Let's look at the 'logic' this implies:

First timeline:
Criminal commits crime.
Criminal is neither captured nor imprisoned.
Criminal keeps committing crimes uninterrupted.
Crime equals a value of X.

Second timeline, a period of time equal to the first one:
Criminal commits crime.
Criminal is captured by Batman or people like him with access to billions as well as high tech weaponry and ninja training.
Criminal goes to jail.
Criminal eventually escapes from jail.
Criminal resumes committing crime.
Crime equals the same as above MINUS the crime the criminal would have committed if they had not spent time imprisoned.
Or in other words, LESS crime.

Somehow you made that into Batman causing MORE crime. I cannot for the life of me comprehend how this is supposed to work.

I would like to counter with how improbable is that there would be noone else who would take care of the criminal but on second though, in Batman universe, it seems dangerously close to truth. I mean, it seems there is noone else capable of catching those criminals around. Despite Batman regularly hanging out with other superpowered individuals.

So yes, no matter how stupid I consider Batman's "strategy", it's very likely that if he would take offense at my opinion and stop fighting crime completely the levels of crime WOULD go up.

The original way how it was supposed to work was presenting alternative where Batman would be killing sometimes, but it's true that I phrased it in way which was NOT presenting this alternative.

(BTW, Deadpool showed it well in his movie. Uh, sorry, that was spoler I guess ...)

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11 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

The original way how it was supposed to work was presenting alternative where Batman would be killing sometimes, but it's true that I phrased it in way which was NOT presenting this alternative.

Errrr... vigilante murders are in and of themselves serious crimes. I don't quite get precisely how a murder spree can be seen as 'less crime.'

And even overlooking that, there would still be less crime involved with the non-murderous Batman and various types like him.

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43 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:
57 minutes ago, hkmaly said:

The original way how it was supposed to work was presenting alternative where Batman would be killing sometimes, but it's true that I phrased it in way which was NOT presenting this alternative.

Errrr... vigilante murders are in and of themselves serious crimes. I don't quite get precisely how a murder spree can be seen as 'less crime.'

Well, I wasn't thinking about murder spree, but about self-defense and "accidents".

Granted, his vigilante status makes it problematic, but doesn't police see him as criminal most of the time anyway?

44 minutes ago, The Old Hack said:

And even overlooking that, there would still be less crime involved with the non-murderous Batman and various types like him.

How?

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3 hours ago, hkmaly said:

How?

Did you really forget that timeline I showed like literally FOUR POSTS above this one that fast?

Also, that is even granting your glib assumption of automatic escape. Which is not necessarily automatic in real life, I understand. OR in games.

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14 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Scriptwriters are out-of-universe explanation. In-universe, the facility those villains are being put in clearly lack the security level required to hold them. Granted, if you are pacifist you can opt for creating better prison instead, but in my opinion those villains don't deserve yet another chance.

I got the impression that in-universe then entire legal system is corrupt (except for Commissioner Gordon who's been in a losing battle trying to clean things up) and Arkham Asylum has basically become a place for the villains to regroup and plan for the next time.

 

Actually, just thought of something, Wayne totally missed an opportunity when Edward Nygma proposed a device that tapped into people's minds, might have been able to use it to reform criminals or something, and at the same time prevented Edward from turning criminal.

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17 hours ago, The Old Hack said:
17 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Scriptwriters are out-of-universe explanation.

So is "The game says so."

To focus on this NP story for a moment, I've been under the impression that we are not so much seeing a story set in the world of Parable as we are seeing the Susan of a world similar to the main comic playing the game Parable (except either the game has been modded with the faces of people she knows, or the character appearances are just artistic license on Dan's part). As such, "the game says so" is not an out-of-universe explanation from Susan's perspective...

15 hours ago, hkmaly said:

Granted, his vigilante status makes it problematic, but doesn't police see him as criminal most of the time anyway?

2 hours ago, Scotty said:

I got the impression that in-universe then entire legal system is corrupt (except for Commissioner Gordon who's been in a losing battle trying to clean things up) and Arkham Asylum has basically become a place for the villains to regroup and plan for the next time.

Depends on the timeline and what part of his story arc it is.

In the 1966 Batman show, he was working with the Police officially. (And the Police were fully lawful good, if a bit over-eager to call in Batman to do their jobs for them.)

In the comics, post Crisis On Infinite Earths and pre New 52, he started as a criminal vigilante hunted by the corrupt police (in Year One), but eventually became an unofficial ally of the Police (who were no longer corrupt under Gordon's leadership). In the present-day comics I read in the 90s, the Police officially denied working with him, but everyone in Gotham knew that was a lie.

The first Tim Burton Batman followed a similar arc to the post-Crisis Batman minus the police trying to hunt him down. (I don't remember exactly how things were handled in Batman Returns and the Schumacher films, but I know Batman worked with the Police and they didn't show much signs of corruption in those movies.)

The Dark Knight Trilogy had Batman as a hunted vigilante, but as far as I remember in that version the police weren't corrupt at all, they just didn't have a good opinion of vigilantes (and of course at the end of the Dark Knight, Batman gave them more reason to hunt him).

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